Summer means no religion or politics?

[Khris]

miguel:
Please cut out telling me there's a piece of heaven with my name on it. I'm usually not sensible about stuff like that, but hearing this ridiculous BS somehow bugs the hell out of me.
I think you've just found out why many atheists are so hostile towards believers.

Jim Reed:
Let me open by saying that I think you're so brainwashed that trying to talk any sense into you is a waste of time.
And you can heal over a distance through prayer, but you aren't allowed to do it for free? This is a pathetic attempt at trying to fuck over naive people.
If you're so sure you have supernatural powers, call Randi and go get the million dollars, for fuck's sake. What are you waiting for?

Still, I can't help asking you this:
Say I met you and two other guys who believe in other deities, and both of them have completely different answers to all the questions you just answered. The only thing in common is that all three of you are totally convinced that what they say actually is the way things work.
Why would I believe your version instead of one of the other ones? Is there a single piece of (actual, not anecdotal) evidence that your version is even the closest approximation to the "truth"?
(I wouldn't; No.)

[Vince Twelve]

Hey Jim,

You are walking down the street, and you see this kid MrColossal mentioned on the side of the road:



And as you've already mentioned:

it can be that his parents, grandparents etc. or a member of family have commited [a sin] and the punishment may come to this child. Belive it or not, that is the way things work.

In fact, you happen to know that the child's father was a rapist who raped the child's mother, and has, oh let's say, also killed a couple nuns.

Do you offer the kid some food and water, and take her into your home to help ease the suffering that god has brought upon her to punish her father, the rapist?

Or do you spit in her face, to help god with the punishing?

Or do you walk on by and ignore her, letting god do his work?

[Jim Reed]

And you can heal over a distance through prayer, but you aren't allowed to do it for free?

I didn't make those rules, I only abide by them. I know they apply personally to me, but there are more people who can heal via praying who I personally know, and I don't know what rules they follow.

If you're so sure you have supernatural powers, call Randi and go get the million dollars, for fuck's sake. What are you waiting for?

That would be my choice now, wouldn't it. But thank you for the advice.

Why would I believe your version instead of one of the other ones? Is there a single piece of (actual, not anecdotal) evidence that your version is even the closest approximation to the "truth"?
(I wouldn't; No.)

I don't know why you do the things you do, would do or did.
Evidence, you say? What, should I make a miracle or something? I could take you to a man who can do it, if need be. Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll show one to you.

[Jim Reed]

Do you offer the kid some food and water, and take her into your home to help ease the suffering that god has brought upon her to punish her father, the rapist?

I would help her, no matter what her father did.

Or do you spit in her face, to help god with the punishing?

-God doesn't need help. (He is omnipotent)

Or do you walk on by and ignore her, letting god do his work?

-He did this work, as you can see from the picture. And why would me helping her, stop God from doing anything He wanted?

[MrColossal]

What if he wanted her to die in a ditch?

[Vince Twelve]

Yeah.  So, you think god was wrong to punish her?

[Jim Reed]

If God wanted her dead, she would be dead allready.
God doesn't make mistakes, He is allknowledgable.

[Akatosh]

I'm going to pay you twenty US-$ (or rather, their equivalent in €) if you put the latter sentence on a T-Shirt, stand next to a Holocaust memorial, grinning and putting up your thumb, have a picture of the scenery taken and post it on the internet. Go ahead, I dare you.

[SSH]

Who claimed that, exactly? Have you a quote? It's certainly not something I've ever claimed. Christians are not better behaved or more honest although they should strive to be. They are not cleverer. They are not superior. They are just saved.

And a human being of infinite goodness who was born in the middle of the Amazon and had no chance to know "God" not?

I don't beleive that there are any people of perfect goodness. So we might as well consider the hypotheitical scenario that all the "dark matter" turned out to be blancmange... would that undermine your faith in the Big Bang?

You haven't still answered to my question... If your kids are not what you expected to be... would you kill them drowning in the bath tube? As I guess your answer is no... How can you follow a being who did it?

Errr. First of all, I didn't realise that you'd asked ME that. Second, I'm not sure what a bath tube is. And last, are you saying that God tried to drown Jesus in the bath?

Mr. Andrew... Are you aware that if you were born 1,000 years ago you would probably deffending things like "earth was created around 10,000 years ago in 6 days", with the same conviction and devotion that the one you use now to deffend the "we are saved" message? How can you be so convinced about one specific part of the message in particular when some other things (things which convinced people as much as you are now) have prooven to be incorrect?

I'm not sure that the "young earth" has been proven to be incorrect: an all-powerful God would be capable of making the universe in any state he likes, including the exact state of the universe yersterday or 10000 years ago or 10 billion years ago. I'm not advocating any of those possibilities necessarily, but lets illustrate the point:

I see a car travelling at 120kph along the AP-7 towards Benidorm. If I extrapolate back from its current motion, I conclude that the car came from Barcelona. However, the car may have started in
Valencia or Castellón. You keep coming back to saying science has proved things but then you refuse to argue about these statements that underpin your arguments.

Also, I'm not sure which branch of theology Jim follows, etc. but all this "sins of the fathers" and "paying for the sins in the last moments" is not what I believe.

[Vince Twelve]

Also, I'm not sure which branch of theology Jim follows, etc. but all this "sins of the fathers" and "paying for the sins in the last moments" is not what I believe.

I think everyone here understands that one person's interpretations of how a god thinks and acts does not represent the beliefs of all people who believe in god(s).  Hell, I'm pretty sure we'd be hard pressed to find a group or branch of theology wanting to claim him. 

His posts don't reflect on other believers just as I wouldn't want Nacho's posts (no offense meant, I just disagree with the tone of the argument!) to reflect on me or other atheists.

[Jim Reed]

I'm going to pay you twenty US-$ (or rather, their equivalent in €) if you put the latter sentence on a T-Shirt, stand next to a Holocaust memorial, grinning and putting up your thumb, have a picture of the scenery taken and post it on the internet. Go ahead, I dare you.

Well, if you sin against another man, you will get punished, but don't forget that the other man will be given back what has been taken from him. So everything is just.
The victims of the Holocaust are not forgoten by God.

[Nacho]

SSH: Put "bath tube" in google, and go to "images". Number of entries=Aprox. a million.

God did not drown Jesus in a bath tube. He drowned his kids in the Deluge... That' s what I call a super-dad!

Science=Constantly updated.
Bible=Not updated since the end of the Roman Empire.

Another question for believers: Jesus said: "Do to others what you want the others to do to you". Okay... if somebody likes saddism and likes to be beaten and his nipples nailed... Is he allowed, according to Jesus' words, to to that to the rest of the people?

I am receiving a lot of replies, even via PM, to my "questions". Most of them are different. Weird! Some of you tell me that a "golden heart" person can go to heaven, even if he does not believe. What' s the point of believing, then?

New question: There is a flight manual: After reading it, the teaches asks to the flight cadets a question:
Would you pull up or down the joystick of the plane if it starts to stall?

One asks "up". One asks "down". The flight instructor goes to the manual and he is not sure about the correct reply, either... He consults other instructors... Some of them tell him that, according to the manual, the correct answer is "up", some others "down".

Would you trust in that flight manual?

[Jim Reed]

If you do bad things to others, bad things will happen to you.
So a mazohist may hurt other people and expect to be hurt bad, but doesn't mean that his punishment will come in that form.

[Nacho]

Okay... and what about the manual... Would you trust the manual or not?

[SSH]

SSH: Put "bath tube" in google, and go to "images". Number of entries=Aprox. a million.

And then note what  it says "Did you mean: bathtub"

Tub: container
Tube: hollow cylinder

What a difference a letter makes!

As for you trying to corrupt the "Golden Rule" which nearly every ethical code adheres to, I think you're just being facetious.

And as for the flight manual, I'd trust the manual, not the people who claim to have read it. Funnily enough part of my full-time job is making sure that our manuals are correct and unambiguous. And I can tell you one thing for sure: our manuals may have things that are confusing or out-of-date but I can assure you you wouldn't be able to install our software without one.

[Jim Reed]

Okay... and what about the manual... Would you trust the manual or not?

I would get 3 parachutes, and go try myself, if I didn't find the answers I asked for thrutfull. I belive in being prepared. It's common sense.

If you use a tint character command, and tint that character to a red colour, but upon playing the thing, you find the character tinted blue...what would you do? Would you look into the manual, it saying that you scripted the thing correctly and the character is red, and then acknowledge that the character is red, no matter that it appears blue?

[Matti]

SSH: Put "bath tube" in google, and go to "images". Number of entries=Aprox. a million.

And then note what  it says "Did you mean: bathtub"

Tub: container
Tube: hollow cylinder

What a difference a letter makes!

Hm, it's quite funny. I get 2 million entries on "bath tube" and 2.9 million on "bathtub". So I guess quite a lot of people aren't spelling it correctly.

[Oliwerko]

So, what' s the point of believing? It gives no advantage

That's not generally true. I think belief is an easy way to relieve phychical stress. Belief in anything. Like, belief in God, or being an atheist. It doesn't matter. The point is, if you have something, ANYTHING you stand behind, it makes you psychically stronger.

While there surely is a difference between being an atheist and believing in God, it's the same in its workings, IMHO. Believers have God, who is allmighty and listens to their prayers; atheists remain calm because they believe there is no god at all and that makes them stronger.

[Tuomas]

Hm, it's quite funny. I get 2 million entries on "bath tube" and 2.9 million on "bathtub". So I guess quite a lot of people aren't spelling it correctly.

That, or a lot of people really do it in a tube O_o

[RickJ]

Science is restricted to the domain of the physical/material world and has nothing to say about things such as beauty, good, evil, arrogance, stupidity, living a "fulfilled" life and all other non-physical aspects of being human.   The role of religion and philosophy is to help us understand humanity, rise above our nature and to improve our lot.

Attempting to prove/disprove the existence of God through a material/physical argument or to prove/disprove science through faith is an exercise in futility;  like eating soup with a fork.

Father George Coyne the retired Director of the Vatican Observatory and Prof. Richard Dawkins an atheist and renowned evolutionary biologist  have a thoughtful discussion in the following interview.

Prof Dawkins Interviews Father George Coyne

The Dali Lama also has some intersting things to say about the roles of science and religion in his book linked below.  I recommend the audio book as I found it a very entertaining listen.  

Dali Lama - "The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality"

Here are also some other lectures given by Father Coyne that may be of interest.

Father George Coyne - Dance of The Fertile Universe
Father George Coyne - Evolution of Life in the Universe