Summer means no religion or politics?

[Jim Reed]

I have nothing more to say to you Kris.

[Matti]

Modern medicine, science, history, biology, chemistry, geology, astrology and other various sources all get together and make up my lack of faith in any deity, sure.

I hope you meant astronomy, not astrology 

Also, Jim, K(h)ris is right. Please don't repeat telling us that it works but disprove the given arguments why people think it works and why it actually doesn't work.

Why can you (and all the other wannabe magicians) only heal deseases that would go away anyway or could be easily cured with medication? Why can't you cure some serious stuff, like cancer? Because God wants it to kill people? Or because he's to lazy or bloodlusty?

[Jim Reed]

From my expirience, your arguments don't 'hold water'.
You can link to a thousand people opinions and defend them untill you run out of breath, and it will not affect the truth.

I will not waste my time in this thread arguing about it any more.

[Lionmonkey]

Lionmonkey,

I still don't see how your argument makes knowing that science works the same as knowing that prayer healing works.

Basically you're saying that "Science works even though the coin might someday land on it's side" is the same as "Faith healing works because the coin might someday land on it's side."

But no matter how many times prayer healing is successful, it can be blamed on coincidence. Even if it grows an amputees limbs back, I for example could still create a scientific theory on how it was nothing to do with a god. So, why shouldn't it work the other way around, with science?
Let's take an electric bulb. For as long as it has existed, there were no proven claims that, given the right prerequisits it wouldn't work. But what is the number of times it has been turned on successfully, compared to a number of times that could be tried again (given the infinity of time)? Nothing. So all of these successful times can't really stand as a proof for a theory that  "1 of 100 lightbulbs will work".
So what do we have in the end? Any of the technology has a really low if any probability of success. So does holy intervention.

Lionmonkey:
If I pray what Jesus said to pray, or say: "Jesus, save us.", and get help, what should I think? It was a placebo? The unicorn did it?

Why not? How do you know this prayer is for God only?

On two occasions help came as the words left my mouth exactly. -...forgive us for our sins... / -Jesus save us. On other occasions it came while I was sleeping.

Why only on two occasions, why not all of them? Why such an inconsistency?
Also, can you relly be sure it happened the instant, words left your mouth? Not a bit later or earlier?

I don't know exactly why my rules say that I need compensation. I do have an opinion. But It'll stay with me on this matter.

Don't they say "God helps those who help themselves"? So why would you listen to that man anyway? Shouldn't you ask yourself what is better to do?

Jim Reed, why don't you try this: next time you've got a fever, don't heal yourself by praying.
Just wait how long it takes for your body to recover on its own.

I think he or someone else already mentioned that waiting for a miracle, discarding any other help isn't real faith.

The important point is that

God never "answers prayers" if there is no possibility of coincidence.

There's always a possibility of coincidence.

Religion and Medicine

There's one thing, I can't seem explainable: Does killing bacteria counts as a deadly sin? I mean they are living beings, right? But you kill them everyday like when you wash up with soap or boil the water or even if you sit doing nothing you may be killing thousands of them. So, what about that?

[Khris]

Lionmonkey, science and people in general usually operate under the assumption that if experiment A led to outcome B every time and never to outcome C, that it'll always will lead to B, provided there's a good, tested explanation why.
Since we know why a light bulb lights up if we send current through it, there's no reason to assume it some day won't.

You seem obsessed with the fact that we can't know anything with 100% certainty, but the thing is, we do know many things with a certainty extremely close to 100%. Usually, these things are called scientific facts.
And ok, granted, there's an extremely minimal chance of the laws of nature suddenly not being valid anymore.
But factoring that infinitesimally small chance into scientific work or daily life isn't useful. It leads nowhere.

Jim Reed, why don't you try this: next time you've got a fever, don't heal yourself by praying.
Just wait how long it takes for your body to recover on its own.

I think he or someone else already mentioned that waiting for a miracle, discarding any other help isn't real faith.

The important point is that

God never "answers prayers" if there is no possibility of coincidence.

There's always a possibility of coincidence.

It's not about waiting for a miracle, it's about realizing that the fever will eventually go away without alleged prayer healing.

I guess the possibility of coincidence is pretty much eliminated when one prays for a limb to grow back, don't you think?

[Vince Twelve]

Edit: darn Khris posted while I was typing.  I'll post anyways.

And just imagine a doctor who claims to value life but cuts out cancer cells to 'allegedly' save the body. That doesn't sound like someone valuing life now does it? - I mean: he's killing of all those living cancer cells because they would somehow be a threat. There's really no sense in that if you come to think about it, now is there?

So who would want such a guy as his doctor? - Let alone accept (and follow) his advice on how to live a healthy life.

Burned again Lionmonkey!   



I have no idea what you're talking about with that first part though.  Sorry, I just couldn't follow the logic.  First of all, faith healing has never grown a limb back because that's something that cannot happen through other means.  This is what Kris was talking about with the "God never answers prayers if there is no possibility of coincidence" comment and is an immediate contradiction to your statement that "There's always a possibility of coincidence. "

I think what you're saying is that the axioms that science is based on might some day be proven false, or at least to have exceptions.  This is acceptable.  For example, we've recently (historically speaking) discovered that the force of gravity works differently on things that are very very small.

However, I don't understand how that can be used to discredit a light bulb, or verify prayer healing, or at least bring the two onto the same plane of logic.

The unicorn seems like such a silly argument to everyone because we know unicorns are just made up, but if you're going to take this backwards-approach to science, then the two statements:
-There are some unknowns in science, therefore faith healing could be true.
-There are some unknowns in science, therefore unicorns could be real.
Are on the same level of verifiability.

There's room for faith.  I don't mind anyone filling in the gaps with a god.  But you have to understand that you can't discuss it in the same way as you can science.  Nor do you have to somehow invalidate science to validate your god.

[Nathan]

I  think the problem with the argument that has been happening is on one side their is a person who has seen faith healing work, and on the other side there are people who want to disprove that it works, you cannot stop someone from saying it works if they have seen it work and certainly you cannot disprove someone over the internet, so whether you believe it works or not it doesn't matter because neither side will except the other sides evidence.

[loominous]

I personally find faith healing a harmless placebo cure which probably works well on people of strong faith, just like homeopathy. If it works for you where medicine has failed, that's great. If it makes you refrain from taking prescribed medicine and ends up killing you, then that's less great. I recall going to confession when I was a kid (a catholic ritual), and feeling a distinct ease of mind when I left, which you can explain however way you like.

Anyway, if someone wants to fill the gap of the origin of the universe with a non-physical being working outside the laws of physics, then fine, you're free to speculate, and it might turn out to be true in the end. It's like speculating whether there are aliens in the universe; it sounds plausible, might not turn out to be true, but at the end of the day it doesn't affect your every day life and actions.

It's a completely different matter, however, to claim to know the personal beliefs and wishes of this being. If you think god hates gays, or that we should stone adulterers, and demand that we conform our laws accordingly, then kindly show some proof that your particular god exist and has this wish, or get out of the debate.

Because people of true faith, like some gents in this thread have explained nicely, don't look for or arguments in their holy scriptures. Something is right because god says so, not because of argument X, Y and Z found in verse A, B, C, which makes a debate pointless, and strapping on some explosives all too easy.

That said, I know plenty of religious people and of course very few are this dogmatic, and look at the bible more as a guide to be interpreted, and the bright ones I know sound similar to Professor Coyne in the interview RickJ posted earlier leaning towards a kind of deism of many great past thinkers.

I faintly recall Jesus saying something along the lines of: "Prepared to be mocked for your beliefs" to his disciples. While it feels insulting to say so, there's still a point in that advice, because religious people need to realize just how extremely outlandish all these claims are outside their community, particularly when you have another equally convinced religious guy next to you claiming that he knows that his god, The True God, thinks something else.

[Nathan]

It's a completely different matter, however, to claim to know the personal beliefs and wishes of this being. If you think god hates gays, or that we should stone adulterers, and demand that we conform our laws accordingly, then kindly show some proof that your particular god exist and has this wish, or get out of the debate.

God does not hate gays, and adulterers should not be stoned.  Being gay is the same as any other sin, no sin is greater than any other one because all cause you to fall short.  God loves all.  That is a fact. 

I don't know the personal wishes of God all I know is what he has told me and everyone else through the bible.

I faintly recall Jesus saying something along the lines of: "Prepared to be mocked for your beliefs" to his disciples. While it feels insulting to say so, there's still a point in that advice, because religious people need to realize just how extremely outlandish all these claims are outside their community, particularly when you have another equally convinced religious guy next to you claiming that he knows that his god, The True God, thinks something else.

I wouldn't say that it is insulting in the least.  I have been mocked many times for my beliefs but that's what I've signed up for and I will not hold a grudge against anybody who insults me, I'll just keep trying. 

Because people of true faith, like some gents in this thread have explained nicely, don't look for or arguments in their holy scriptures. Something is right because god says so, not because of argument X, Y and Z found in verse A, B, C, which makes a debate pointless, and strapping on some explosives all too easy.

I'm confused by what your saying here.  Sorry.  Are you saying that people aren't using scripture to back up their arguments because I'm trying to use scripture as well as reason.

[Khris]

So, uhm, being gay is a sin?

Let's suppose for a moment that being gay isn't genetic but a choice. How come there are gay animals?
Alright, so it isn't a choice. Why is being born gay a sin then? Or rather, how do you explain a just god deeming someone as sinful who hasn't done anything yet?

[Akatosh]

Damning people for things they haven't done is just how YHWH rolls, dude. That's why we're still paying for the incredible crime of "apple eaten by two people incapable of attaching consequences to actions". I think creating people in a particular way, then punishing them for being like that would be right up his alley. We're talking about somebody who kills people because he has a wager running with Satan about the soul of their father. (Hiob's sons were unceremoniously killed by Sky Daddy when the man didn't lose his faith after the first few rounds of undeserved kicks in the teeth).

No sin is greater than any other? So "murder" is on the same level as "wearing clothes woven of two different fabrics", "shaving" and "eating stuff from the sea other than fish" (all banned by book Leviticus)? Well, drat, guess that pizza frutti di mare means I get to share eternity with Hitler.

[Matti]

Wow, Nathan, now I'm having a hard time not being offensive, but I'll try. Is your god some braindead republican from Texas? You're one of the reasons why I want to live in a world without religions like christianity or Islam. Too many people abuse them to propagate bullshit like that.

And who cares if people are homosexual by choice or by genetics? What exactly makes it a sin and why?

[loominous]

I faintly recall Jesus saying something along the lines of: "Prepared to be mocked for your beliefs" to his disciples. While it feels insulting to say so, there's still a point in that advice, because religious people need to realize just how extremely outlandish all these claims are outside their community, particularly when you have another equally convinced religious guy next to you claiming that he knows that his god, The True God, thinks something else.

I wouldn't say that it is insulting in the least.  I have been mocked many times for my beliefs but that's what I've signed up for and I will not hold a grudge against anybody who insults me, I'll just keep trying.  

That's a very humble and nice attitude. As religions become dominant, they tend to lose perspective of the very wobbly foundation on which their speculations rest. While I think insults are inappropriate, and everyone in a debate deserves respect as a person, unfounded speculation, no matter how dear to someone's heart, doesn't deserve any.

Because people of true faith, like some gents in this thread have explained nicely, don't look for arguments in their holy scriptures. Something is right because god says so, not because of argument X, Y and Z found in verse A, B, C, which makes a debate pointless, and strapping on some explosives all too easy.

I'm confused by what your saying here.  Sorry.  Are you saying that people aren't using scripture to back up their arguments because I'm trying to use scripture as well as reason.

I think the confusion might be due different views on what we consider valid arguments. While an argument like: "Stealing is wrong because God says so in verse X, Y, Z", probably seems fine if you believe that the bible is the holy words of god, for everyone else it has the same weight as: "Stealing is wrong because my mom said so yesterday".

It's been a while since I read the bible, but I don't ever recall there being any arguments, just commandments. And why should there be; god demands that we follow instructions blindly, as a sign of true faith, and not go around asking for reasons.

Edit: Spelling

[MrColossal]

MrMatti: Balls! As I was typing Astronomy I thought in my head "now don't confuse the two! That would be hilarious!" and there I went!

Once again, if he has permission and ONLY if he has permission.  I don't know why God would allow the devil to do these things and most likely he wouldn't but if he did, I am sure there would be a reason.

Ok then, let me maybe sum up what I've learned so far... God does things, only he knows why, humans can NOT know his plan. If God does it it is Good. God can not do bad. The devil can interfere with humans but ONLY IF God allows him to. If the devil does it it is Bad. HOWEVER because God allowed it to be done then it is Good because God can not do Bad. So the devil's actions are Good.

Did God allow the snake to tempt Adam and Eve?

What if it's in God's plan to give North Korea nuclear weapons but the devil has tricked the leaders of other countries into thinking it's a bad idea? If God does it it isn't bad so you can't say North Korea getting nuclear weapons is a bad thing.

I have to say here that while there is a plan that God has it does not mean that people don't have free will, people can make horrible decisions and do horrible things.  Ultimately I would have to say that I don't what god's plan is or even how he decides what it is.

Ok, so there is a possibility that God wants North Korea to have a nuclear weapons program, there is also a possibility that the devil wants North Korea to have nuclear weapons but if that's the case it is only because God allows the devil to want that. There is also the possibility that North Korea wanting nuclear weapons has nothing to do with God's plan and is just people making decisions. HOWEVER from North Korea's perspective, having nuclear weapons is a good thing so therefore they would see it as part of God's plan to have nuclear weapons. Sheesh!

If you love your neighbor as you love yourself then you will try to do good for people. 

Has God ever been directly responsible for the deaths of humans? Now sure, because he did it it was a Good thing but I'm curious, in the Bible has God ever told anyone "Kill these people" or "You will win this war by my blessing but you owe me a sacrifice afterwards!" or where he just kills babies by himself? It's hard to understand that commandment when He can reverse it at His whim. Especially when you can't know God's plan and someone kills someone else and says God told them to do it. You can't know if they're telling the truth, right? There is no way to test for God influence but there is precedence in the Bible that God has asked people to kill. So how do you commit someone on Earth of a crime they claim was demanded by God? And if God is asking it, it is Good so what is the crime? There has to be more to this than "Well they weren't a true believer" because how do you test for that? If the Pope single handedly murdered 6 people tomorrow and then said "God told me to do it." Are you totally fine with that or do you demand he is arrested?

[Nathan]

No sin is greater than any other? So "murder" is on the same level as "wearing clothes woven of two different fabrics", "shaving" and "eating stuff from the sea other than fish" (all banned by book Leviticus)? Well, drat, guess that pizza frutti di mare means I get to share eternity with Hitler.

First of all yes all sins are equal in the fact that it causes you to fall short of perfection.  Once you are not perfect, you can't go to heaven.  But God has always given people a way to atone for their sins.  In the old testament it was through sacrificing animals and now it is through believing in Jesus Christ.  I have not read the book of Leviticus closely but most of those things do not apply anymore due to the fact that the old covenant between Abraham and God was replaced by the new one made by Jesus giving his life.

While I think insults are inappropriate, and everyone in a debate deserves respect as a person, unfounded speculation, no matter how dear to someone's heart, doesn't deserve any.

I do not consider my beliefs to be speculation in any way.  I have had many experiences that affirm my belief in Christ.  It is not unfounded for me to believe what has been confirmed through my experiences.  Although I admit it would be unfounded for you, once again though, this is anecdotal evidence which seems like it isn't wanted here.  So all I can say is that I believe and have faith.

It's been a while since I read the bible, but I don't ever recall there being any arguments, just commandments. And why should there be; god demands that we follow instructions blindly, as a sign of true faith, and not go around asking for reasons.

The commandments were given in the old testament first to Israel and they were to be followed out of faith.  But in the gospels particularly Matthew Jesus explains why to follow all of the commandments.

So, uhm, being gay is a sin?

Let's suppose for a moment that being gay isn't genetic but a choice. How come there are gay animals?
Alright, so it isn't a choice. Why is being born gay a sin then? Or rather, how do you explain a just god deeming someone as sinful who hasn't done anything yet?

Let's suppose that being gay is genetics, it is still a sin, BUT only if it is acted on, being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a sin acting on it is.  For instance being attracted to someone of the opposite sex is also not a sin but having sex before marriage is a sin. Let me explain this though, all people have a sinful nature and all people give in at some point or another.  So if someone is gay it does not mean they are going to hell even if they act on it as long as they have faith in Jesus and at least try to repent of their sins they will go to heaven.

I'm sure that God does not deem someone as sinful unless they sin, but considering that it is very easy to sin I doubt very much if there is someone who has not fallen short of God's glory.  

[NsMn]

Let's suppose that being gay is genetics, it is still a sin, BUT only if it is acted on, being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a sin acting on it is. 

That's not any better. What else should homosexual persons do? Have sex with someone of the opposite sex, which isn't possible? Really, that's like you'd say that all Africans should be banned from Africa, although there isn't any other place where thy can get or live.

[Nathan]

Ok then, let me maybe sum up what I've learned so far... God does things, only he knows why, humans can NOT know his plan. If God does it it is Good. God can not do bad. The devil can interfere with humans but ONLY IF God allows him to. If the devil does it it is Bad. HOWEVER because God allowed it to be done then it is Good because God can not do Bad. So the devil's actions are Good.

Did God allow the snake to tempt Adam and Eve?

Humans can know God's plan if he chooses to reveal it to them.  As far as I can tell the devil cannot do good because he doesn't want to.  Even though the actions that the devil took were evil, (killing, stealing etc.,) it does not mean that the end that it brought was evil.  So while the devil did do evil in the end it brought about good.  So God caused that good to come about by allowing the devil to do his work which was evil. 

What really matters is where your heart is in everything that you do.

I hope that makes sense.

Yes, God did allow the devil to tempt Adam and Eve, as I said earlier the Devil was created for a reason, as near as I can tell it is for the exact purpose of tempting people.  If people have no choice but to follow God then they aren't really following him they are just doing the only thing they can, but with the devil in the picture everybody gets a choice.  So while Adam and Eves choice had a much greater affect than others choices it was essentially the same.

Stay with God, or go.  You make the decision.

Ok, so there is a possibility that God wants North Korea to have a nuclear weapons program, there is also a possibility that the devil wants North Korea to have nuclear weapons but if that's the case it is only because God allows the devil to want that. There is also the possibility that North Korea wanting nuclear weapons has nothing to do with God's plan and is just people making decisions. HOWEVER from North Korea's perspective, having nuclear weapons is a good thing so therefore they would see it as part of God's plan to have nuclear weapons. Sheesh!

Exactly, we can't know.

Has God ever been directly responsible for the deaths of humans? Now sure, because he did it it was a Good thing but I'm curious, in the Bible has God ever told anyone "Kill these people" or "You will win this war by my blessing but you owe me a sacrifice afterwards!" or where he just kills babies by himself? It's hard to understand that commandment when He can reverse it at His whim. Especially when you can't know God's plan and someone kills someone else and says God told them to do it. You can't know if they're telling the truth, right? There is no way to test for God influence but there is precedence in the Bible that God has asked people to kill. So how do you commit someone on Earth of a crime they claim was demanded by God? And if God is asking it, it is Good so what is the crime? There has to be more to this than "Well they weren't a true believer" because how do you test for that? If the Pope single handedly murdered 6 people tomorrow and then said "God told me to do it." Are you totally fine with that or do you demand he is arrested?

Here is a complex issue.  I would have to respond by saying that yes God has told people to kill and yes it was for the overall good. I don't pretend to know what the world would be like if anything that has happened wouldn't have happened.  Considering that God would know however I would say that it is good.  If the pope killed six people tomorrow then he should go to prison.  Killing is something that God allows followers of his to do only in the old testament it is never mentioned as being allowed in the new testament. 

I am here to serve, simple as that.

Sorry to apologize so often, but if anything doesn't make sense keep asking.

That's not any better. What else should homosexual persons do? Have sex with someone of the opposite sex, which isn't possible? Really, that's like you'd say that all Africans should be banned from Africa, although there isn't any other place where thy can get or live.

Some people have been dealt a very hard hand, but there is also the choice of not having sex at all.  Many have renounced marriage and sex for God (monks and nuns for instance) so it is not impossible.  It is in the end the same as choosing to sin or choosing not to sin just at an intensified level.  But through God all things are possible.

[Matti]

That's some seriously twisted thinking you got there, Nathan.

Gays should become monks/nuns for the sake of not having sex with people of the same sex? What fucked up bullshit is that?

And could you tell me too why people shouldn't have sex before marriage? I know it's a common issue in christianity but one of the most senseless ones too. What exactly does marriage do that you can finally follow your feelings and desires??

Ah, right, Gods wants that stuff! I forgot! Don't use your brains.. just follow the commandments.

[MrColossal]

So again, to clarify, should the Pope be arrested for killing people and saying that God told him to do it?

[Nathan]

So again, to clarify, should the Pope be arrested for killing people and saying that God told him to do it?

Yes. BTW I am not catholic.

And could you tell me too why people shouldn't have sex before marriage? I know it's a common issue in christianity but one of the most senseless ones too. What exactly does marriage do that you can finally follow your feelings and desires??

Ah, right, Gods wants that stuff! I forgot! Don't use your brains.. just follow the commandments.

God doesn't give the commandments for no reason, they are there for us.  I can't explain for sure why it's a bad thing but here are some statistics.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/chastity.htm