Summer means no religion or politics?

[Khris]

You're still dodging the question. Why won't you answer it?

[Akatosh]

Akatosh, the new media does poison our minds more than ever. It's the 3rd power and it is a subject on universities across the world. Actually, the new media could end it all in days. Not God, because he doesn't exists, right?

Don't you mean the fourth power? I mean, unless Executive, Legislature or Judiciary got slashed when I wasn't looking... 

I agree with you that the sensantionist (I may have misspelled that) type of reporting isn't really helping, and that they like to blow things way out of proportion. However, it's not really fair towards the younger generation to claim that we were only - or mainly - unbelievers because we can't grasp anything presented without flashy colors and beats in the background. I, for one, went from "Protestant Christian" to "non-religous Agnostic" not because Pfr. Himmelmann was holding boring sermons, but because the whole system of belief just did not hold together under scrutinity... what with the contradictions in the supposedly holy and inerrant scripture, some of the things the supposedly benevolent deity did and, first and foremost, the total lack of evidence for a benevolent deity, the mountains against it and the superfluoity of the proposal. (I gave other religions equal opportunity, and they didn't hold up any better. I do know there's religion outside of Christianity.  )

If your theory was correct, you'd assume the less educated people would be more inclined towards Atheism than the more educated ones - after all, an academic profession requires an attention span longer than that of a housefly. Funny thing the trend seems to be more or less the other way around...

(And I know you shouldn't go against people on your own side, but I have to point out something to Khris, because this sort of thing irks me - Muslims have heard of Jesus, as according to them, he is the second-to-last prophet... just not the son of YHWH, or Allah, as they call the character.)

[Nacho]

Don't put every Christian in the same pot because I don't do that to you.

I MUST do it... Because if a religion is based in a book that says something you can believe... Or not! and gives you moral advices you can follow... Or not! then we are not talking about a religion: We are talking about a "personality Roschard test".

And I don't need supernatural stuff for that. There is another thing, without the intervention of God, that gives you things you can believe o not and morale lessons you can believe or not: It's called EDUCATION.

[miguel]

Khris, YES I believe that a man can be good without knowing Jesus. I thought I'd answer that before and I'm sure I did.

Akatosh, I believe there's a bug in the forums because I'm sure I wrote 4th power!
I got your point in your 3rd paragraph and it's a very clever question. It's all a big paradox because you can't say that more educated people aren't influenced by the media, there are different media for different classes. I was speaking generally and firmly agree that the media conduct us on a subliminal level with a degree that is much higher than it should be.
Don't forget that I've got two kids (she's 15 and he's 14) that are exposed 24/7 by the media like many more and what they accept today is far more demanding than I did only some 20 years ago. And I did have computers and movies and fashion magazines, rock & roll and whatever. So, I'm kind of living it right now and trying to be patient and acknowledge that they consider normal what I consider excessive.
I can't say that younger generations are non-believer because of the media but one thing I know is that if you sit for a whole day in front of a TV you'll never find content that brings people towards Catholic Church. Don't you agree?
So, we can say that the media if not refuses Christianity it does a good job leading kids away from it.

Nacho, maybe those words in capital letters mean a lot more to me than you.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I found your questions very intelligent.

[Nacho]

So, you agree that a religion is undistinguishable from any other way of human, probably non perfect, education?

[miguel]

What are we discussing now, Nacho? The Perfect Man?
Things aren't easily put on lists of proper conduct or behaviour that a man should follow.
The same way you debate or refuse the 10 Commandments, others will refuse educational manners that we accept (without a religious presence) as the right way.
On a visit to the north of Africa it wasn't polite if I didn't loudly burp after a meal.
If you want me to differentiate religion and education then we should first establish some points here.
By education do you mean scholarship or moral manners of living in society? Both? Very well, then I tell you that it's a known fact that an adult can be polite, educated and even a scholar without being religious.
Religion is another part of the human being. It's the "there's something more" factor, something we cannot measure but sense it's presence. The word soul, for example, can be used without religious connotations but always refers to a specific behaviour of man. Something we can't measure, like when your favourite football team lacks "flame" and we comment that their playing without soul.
What should a man be like? It's easy to enumerate some basic ideas that we all can agree without religion stepping inside. On that list you would probably write something like "A man should be confident.", well sometimes faith gives man that extra boost to take the right choices, didn't you ever called to God and asked him for it?
I know lots of non-religious people that admit they ask God's help numerous times in their lives.   

[Akatosh]

Akatosh, I believe there's a bug in the forums because I'm sure I wrote 4th power!
I got your point in your 3rd paragraph and it's a very clever question. It's all a big paradox because you can't say that more educated people aren't influenced by the media, there are different media for different classes. I was speaking generally and firmly agree that the media conduct us on a subliminal level with a degree that is much higher than it should be.
Don't forget that I've got two kids (she's 15 and he's 14) that are exposed 24/7 by the media like many more and what they accept today is far more demanding than I did only some 20 years ago. And I did have computers and movies and fashion magazines, rock & roll and whatever. So, I'm kind of living it right now and trying to bepatient and acknowledge that they consider normal what I consider excessive.
I can't say that younger generations are non-believer because of the media but one thing I know is that if you sit for a whole day in front of a TV you'll never find content that brings people towards Catholic Church. Don't you agree?
So, we can say that the media if not refuses Christianity it does a good job leading kids away from it.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Catholic main characters are rather popular in German TV, for example, the Catholic church does quite a few ad runs, there are extensive news reports whenever the pope does anything whatsoever... that they don't shoehorn the matter in everywhere doesn't mean they're trying to drown it out. (And even if they opted to largely ignore it, that still wouldn't be "leading away". It's not the task of television to educate you - that's what schools and textbooks are for, and they're much better at it. Television's really best for entertainment and news, and really falls flat on its face when it comes to philosophy.)

Also... "Things aren't easily put on lists of proper conduct or behaviour that a man should follow."? "The same way you debate or refuse the 10 Commandments, others will refuse educational manners that we accept (without a religious presence) as the right way."? Did you just admit moral relativism? 

[Nacho]

Religion is another part of the human being. It's the "there's something more" factor, something we cannot measure but sense it's presence.  

How? I don't sense it...

[miguel]

Akatosh, I think general or public TV (channels you don't pay to receive them) is just nonsense and there is nothing educational about it. Yes, it's not their job to educate me but if I sit too long in front of it I might become even dumber than I am.
Moral relativism is very near the denying of everything if radically abused. I asked you a question first. What should a man be?
Your time now.

[Nacho]

Hey! Reply to me! You say that the oly difference about the religion and any other non supernatural inspired education is that "you can feel it". I can't.

-I have flaws? What happens to the people who can't feel it? Are we going to be punished in some way? Why, are we guilty of not being able to "feel it"? How can "God" create flawed humans who can not "feel it"?
-What happens with people who "feels" something that is different to the thing you feel, like, for example, the scientologist or those who follow the "Force" (Stars Wars) religion? (To make it clear... The "Force" is a real, official religion in, for example, the UK), How can you distinguish that your "feeling" is the good one and theirs is not?
-What happens with those who "feel" God does not exist? Do you assume your "feeling" is better?

That's a big clasist, don't you think so?

[miguel]

If you feel fulfilled then don't worry about it.
Your flaws are pretty much the same as mine.
Nobody will punish you or ever demand that you feel anything else than you already do.

[Akatosh]

Your church says otherwise. If the dogmas are to be believed, you are either Catholic (or "invincibly ignorant", by having lived before Jesus' birth or somesuch), or you go to hell. That's it. The current pope reinforced this - there is, appearantly, no salvation outside of the RCC. And since your holy book and the authorized interpretations thereof are pretty damn clear when it comes to pressing people into a framework of rules (many completly arbitrary) and punishment of "sinful" behaviour...

What should a man be?

I'm not sure if that's directed towards me, but I'll answer it. If you ask me, a man should strive to act according to this, this and this. In addition, I believe one's freedom should be limited only when it starts to infringe upon the freedom of others. Everything else... really depends on the situation at hand. Mind-numbingly general, I know.

[miguel]

If you want to throw philosophy on me, please follow my thoughts at what I'll try to explain next.
   Imagine a world without religion at all;
   because man is intelligent and capable of deciding everything without a higher presence than him he will come to the fatal and final conclusion that he is going to die.
   The reason we do follow the rules of other intelligent humans is because we refuse with all the strength of our last hair foil that we are not facing death any time soon.
   If I had that notion very close to me then my acts would be pretty much different than our current world.
-----------------at this point you're starting to reply and contest my words, but wait a little longer--------------------------
   I know that I will die and that's it, there is no reward or punishment when I do.
   I am sent to war and kill others because I'm told by others that is the right thing.
   I can fool and even steal from others as long as the rules aren't broken (if I buy your company I can just fire you);
   I can produce other human beings without any love between people ever to exist;
   I can become a ruler of an empire and declare that 30000 people will die tomorrow;
   I basically can refuse all the links you supplied me because I can simply not be seen doing them.

   I firmly think that human rules and laws are easily bended according to one's needs and because there is no divine punishment or rewards man will never achieve those high standards you kindly demonstrated through Wiki. And do you know why? Because they can.
   Because they aren't morally accused and put on stand by God.
   
What man should be? 

[Nacho]

If you want to throw philosophy on me, please follow my thoughts at what I'll try to explain next.
   Imagine a world without religion at all;
   because man is intelligent and capable of deciding everything without a higher presence than him he will come to the fatal and final conclusion that he is going to die.
   The reason we do follow the rules of other intelligent humans is because we refuse with all the strength of our last hair foil that we are not facing death any time soon.
   If I had that notion very close to me then my acts would be pretty much different than our current world.
-----------------at this point you're starting to reply and contest my words, but wait a little longer--------------------------
   I know that I will die and that's it, there is no reward or punishment when I do.
   I am sent to war and kill others because I'm told by others that is the right thing.
   I can fool and even steal from others as long as the rules aren't broken (if I buy your company I can just fire you);
   I can produce other human beings without any love between people ever to exist;
   I can become a ruler of an empire and declare that 30000 people will die tomorrow;
   I basically can refuse all the links you supplied me because I can simply not be seen doing them.

   I firmly think that human rules and laws are easily bended according to one's needs and because there is no divine punishment or rewards man will never achieve those high standards you kindly demonstrated through Wiki. And do you know why? Because they can.
   Because they aren't morally accused and put on stand by God.
   
What man should be? 

So, that's the point of all? "Religion" is better than any other kind of education because it has the notion of the afterlife? I don't believe in life after life and I haven' t reached to any of those conclussions. I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't want 30,000 people to be killed tomorrow... I think you over rate religion a bit. Your statements are quite flawed, I am afraid.

[miguel]

That's because you can't command those killings. What makes you different from all those ruthless kings and dictators that against the word of God did commit genocide?
Given enough power to any one of us at the forums we can become something quite unexpected.
That's when religion clicks in and reminds us that we can be punished if being bad.
Got my point?

[Dualnames]

Nacho, you got the "I want to break free" syndrome. At least that's what I get. You feel like religion and religious people are telling what to do. Anyone can tell you what to do, but its your choice whether  you want to do it or not. That explains why you attack (and trust me, attack it is) anyone that's even religious for HIMSELF. As said before, but no one even bothered to read my post, I'll rephrase to see how your senses trick you even without you knowing. How many colours can you see Nacho? There's a being/creature that can see 125.000 colours(more than you), do you still think red is red? Or does red seem red? What if red is normally purple but your vision lets you see much less? There are people that see colours when a smell is in the air, and others that see colours when a sound is heard. How sure are you that your senses that tell you god doesn't exist because they can't trace him, are tools of power?!

[Nacho]

That's because you can't command those killings. What makes you different from all those ruthless kings and dictators that against the word of God did commit genocide?
Given enough power to any one of us at the forums we can become something quite unexpected.
That's when religion clicks in and reminds us that we can be punished if being bad.
Got my point?

Okay, so, according to you, all non believers are potential genocides...

And after saying that, you ask for "respect my beliefs"? A belief that assumes that anyone but "the good guys of the church club" are, basically, potential bastards.

Okay... Thanks for the info. Thanks for reminding me why I am an active atheistic.

[Akatosh]

Guys.

Seriously.

Please.

I thought we had moved beyond the "Atheists are inherently immoral" stage.

If the only reason you are not a lying, stealing mass-murderer is the threat of eternal torture, please keep at least one country away from me at all time.

Let me argue in the same vein as you just did. If this life is truly all you get, isn't it worth treasuring much more than if you claim it to be merely foreplay? In fact, if there were only feverish believers in <insert deity here>, we'd be still pretty much living in caves. Why research medication? If you're good you go to heaven anyway. Why improve quality of life when you can contemplate <deity>? Why hone critical thinking or reasoning skills when you can be taught the magnificience of <deity>? Why ever try to move beyond hard manual labor? You could be thanking <deity> for not burning down your mud hut instead. And, most of all... why treat heretics as if they were humans? Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Inquisition or all that stuff? Believers can be at least as cruel as non-believers, no matter what you substitue for <deity>.

Dualnames... come on. The reason for unbelief is not the framework of rules, and you know that. The reason for unbelief is a complete absence of compelling positive proof for the claims brought forward by religion(s). The scoffing at the more arbitrary of rules (e.g. to not wear clothes made of two different fabrics, as commanded by Book Leviticus) just flows from that. It's not "I don't want to do this -> I don't believe", it's "This seems incredibly unlikely -> Why the frig should I do what they order me to?".

Nacho is a little higher up on the aggressiveness scale... but I'm fairly sure he just vocally dislikes your beliefs, which is a long shot from hating you as a person. Although with some of the things that were claimed in this thread, I think I'm starting to understand why many Atheists tend to go a little frustrated after the first few debates.

[Nacho]

Hey, I don't think I am being aggressive... If I was, apologies, I just wanted to be an aggressive debater, not taking this to the personal stuff... 

[Dualnames]

Who the f^**^ said to do what they order you to. For the love of ...., I do respect your beliefs more than you think I do. In fact I'm against in any kind of conversion of one's thoughts. I just want to point out to Nacho and to some of you, that there's no bloody reason to be so hostile to ME,  because other religious fucktards want to persuade you and tell you how to live your life right. I'm not that kind of person. End of story there.

In case that helps:
NACHO I LOVE YOU! I DON;T WANT TO TURN YOU INTO A NON-AGGRESSIVE CHRISTIAN!!