http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6264230.stm
I understand that, despite there being no good excuse to take the lives of innocent people... there is a reason behind terrorist attacks.
However small or silly the reason may sound to you or I, anybody who gives up their life and intends to hurt and destroy the lives of others, has a reason. Even if it's a bloody rubbish one.
Now here's what I don't get.
Why would middle-class, well-educated, well-paid doctors choose to do this?
It's arrogant to assume that just because someone is well-educated or middle-class etc., that they would be less likely to be insane or to hurt someone.
But they certainly see a slightly better side of the UK than some of us who have to scrimp and save to get by and pull our hair out at the end of every month when the bills come through.
And you become a doctor to help people, to save people.
Not to blow up innocent men, women and children.
Why would they bother going through medical training, going through student doctor years (which are extremely hard years and require a lot of attention and study), just to throw it all away by trying to kill people that have never done you any harm?
What's going on here, eh?
After reading a lot of those cases on the link I gave, I find it hard to believe that most of those people mentioned are terrorists. Their lives are clean, and good, and happy. They have young children, loving families, good careers. I'm almost inclined to believe that the police have it wrong and that most of these men are innocent... but of course, that's unlikely...
It simply indicates that there is something wrong with the society. I like to use the expression "shelled" to describe todays society. On first glance, everything seems to be normal, people work, live their own lives etc. But if you look deeper, under the shell, you recognize that everything is so damn corrupted and bizarre. And guess what, we are all working for that corruption, for other peoples power, we are all part of the system. usual city people, families, fat kids, etc, innocent ones, are actually part of the problem even if they don't know it.
Just think of it, one mans bread is anothers mysery. Animal tests, oil war, nuclear bombs, syrrogates in Middle East, slavery in Asia, South America and Africa, arm deals, food scams, etc... One countrys democracy stands on another ones freedom. What would you do if you were to lose your freedom, your ability to choose? Most people are potential killers, you know, even you and me may kill people just because of being here, consuming everything. So what is the difference if you do it directly or indirectly being cold blooded and ignoring it?
World is running out of resources, that is for shure. Oil wars have already begun. I am actually surprised that there are no terror attacks coming from South America because northern world is taking away their recourses and democracy also... Its seems like people in middle east are just more agressive to not let themselves be fooled, and there is nothing wrong with that. One thing is for shure, there are worse times coming.
I'm curious to know the reason. Very curious. I'm at a loss to understand how killing a mass amount of random people would have furthered their cause(?) in any way.
Muslims are very delicate and emotional people, and while western countries are consuming their islamic world, they create lots of tension in their country, therefore lots of families die. So the islamic people are attacing civilians in northen countries to just get them to feel the same. And also, it can be compared to hostage taking, both methods act as ultimatums.
Western and Northern forces should leave Middle East and Afghanistan alone and let them deal with their own problems. Moslems etc have understood that actually western countries have no reason to be there, there is no reason to support Israel. They are different culture, we have no business of being there. But we want their resources, its that simple.
Now, do you actually remember beslan school hostage crisis? You remember the demands of terrorists?
The governments of Western and Northern countries should look up to themsleves to see who the real terrorists are.
Um...People who evoke terror?
Quote from: radiowaves on Sat 14/07/2007 17:09:33
Western and Northern countries should look up to themsleves to see who the real terrorists are.
I demmand a smiley for expressing vomit.
Quote from: Nacho on Sat 14/07/2007 18:44:54
Quote from: radiowaves on Sat 14/07/2007 17:09:33
Western and Northern countries should look up to themsleves to see who the real terrorists are.
I demmand a smiley for expressing vomit.
:-X
No no... that are leaps sealed. ---> :-X
I want an emoticon for expresing how sick makes me feel that my friend Angélica, killed in Madrid in 3/11, is the real terrorist, and not Bin Laden.
(http://www.20minutos.es/data/img/2007/02/13/560256.jpg)
Radiowaves, you are despicable.
Oh, okay.. More like this then?
(http://thejoint.atlblogs.com/archives/vomit-40.jpg)
And my condolences.
That's better... Radiowaves. Look at the pic... Now you know what you make me feel... :P
I feel sorry, my condolences. Muslims have lost lots of families too, because of the chaos that western governments have brought, they are as angry as you, accusing us to be the terrorists. Personal drama can have enonormus effect on people. Everything has two sides you know. And I believe it is better if we leave personal drama out of this thread. I also am a bit dissapointed that people only see the last sentence of my post, which was not meant that way at all. I should edit my post. My apologies for confusion.
I've seen people who accuse moslims as nation in terrorism, no matter if its caused by one person or not. Moslims, therefore accuse us as nation. It is basically similar to the cause of school shootings, at least in most cases. So we really should look into the mirror, there are lots of misunderstandings. Do you actually know that in many Islamic countries they believe Europe and America are countries that have people with very opened sexuality. They actually believe that people have sex in every corner and life is like in those porn movies. Now how bizarre is that. Think about it.
Radiowaves, undisputably most terrorist groups have a real grievance behind them, and that's what gets some people involved in them, but that doesn't really address what Meowster was surprised by, that some well off, and presumably intelligent doctors could justify a suicide attack. That they could convince themselves it'd be worth the cost of many other people's lives, just to make a point. When it came to palestinian suicide bombers, you could look at them and say oh, young guys, unemployed, little prospects where they live, daily reminders of why their lives are so shitty, that's obviously fertile ground... similar in Chechnya, but not so much in these cases.
It's definitely surprising, but I also know religion is a powerful force. When you have such strong ties of belief between people they can encourage each other to do all kinds of stuff that they would never consider alone. I don't know about these specific people, but a lot of british radicals are into a kind of islamic theology that says western society is in general immoral, at war with muslims, and as participants in it, we're all enemies of islam, etc. They can find any necessary theological excuses to go and be a thug and feel like an important person, if that helps them justify it to themselves, but the main thing is they're true believers. They don't need a shitty life or a logical argument for what they're doing, it's about what everyone else in their group thinks.
Why do they get into the radical beliefs in the first place? Personally I think it's mostly for the sense of close community and purpose.
It's hard to have much confidence in the human mind when you realise that intelligent people can do stuff like this. People need to realise how fallible they are, and not take their own ideas so seriously.
Quote from: Babar on Sat 14/07/2007 16:57:56
I'm curious to know the reason. Very curious. I'm at a loss to understand how killing a mass amount of random people would have furthered their cause(?) in any way.
If a terrorist campaign is successful, it does have the potential to bring down the economy, and in the end even the government, of a country.
Think about it -- if America suffered a 9/11-type attack every month, or Spain suffered a Madrid-style attack every month, or Britain a 7/7 one; then business leaders would assess that country as being unstable and would move their offices and jobs elsewhere, to somewhere more secure. It would also make the public very fearful in their everyday lives, wondering if they were going to get blown up.
The final result of this would be a country full of paranoid, unemployed people and in the end it could degenerate into the sort of state that Iraq is in now.
So while a one-off attack doesn't really achieve very much for the terrorists other than instilling a bit of fear into people, what they're aiming for is a sustained wave of attacks -- but luckily the western security services are generally successful at preventing most of them.
I question the possibility of a group of pissed-off doctors maintaining a sustained wave of attacks against major western nations.
Anyhow, as to education being a deterrent to this sort of behaviour, the opposite seems to be true. Weren't many of the 9/11 terrorists Engineering students? Even in the recent problems in Pakistan, the leader Imam, the more "religious" and less educated one attempted to flee disguised in a burqa, while his more educated but less "religious" brother decided to "make a last stand", and was unfortunately "martyred".
CJ: Israel?
I don't know what motivates this people and honestly I don't really care. I am just squealing with glee that this dumbf*ck in Glasgow burned himself. Life behind bars in agony...
Lol, serves him right. :D
Quote from: Nacho on Sat 14/07/2007 18:54:31
No no... that are leaps sealed. ---> :-X
I want an emoticon for expresing how sick makes me feel that my friend Angélica, killed in Madrid in 3/11, is the real terrorist, and not Bin Laden.
Radiowaves, you are despicable.
Nacho, that's just ridiculous, Bin Laden is a son of a bitch terrorist, and so is Bush.
An iraki guy can also post photos from all his dead family and friends. Radiowaves didn't say Bin Laden wasn't a terrorist.
You can't compare the irak society and the USA society, ok, but that doesn't mean both societies can't have a terrorist leader. Bush killed a lot of innocent people for petroleum, Bin Laden because of his sick brainwashed head, what's the difference?.
Well, for a start, IRAQ and Osama Bin Laden (and for that matter al-Qaeda) are two completely different subjects.
The trouble in Iraq at the moment is (very!)basically down to dissident Iraqis vs the new (US-backed) Iraqi government. The reasons why America is involved at all is a whole different argument.
Osama Bin Laden, on the other had, is a terrorist leader and self-appointed saviour of the arab world. He comes from an affluent Saudi family, and is head of an illegal organization. His connection to Iraq, or to the reasons behind the fall of Saddam Hussein, is spurious at best.
George W Bush is President of the United States.
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sat 14/07/2007 23:03:41
Well, for a start, IRAQ and Osama Bin Laden (and for that matter al-Qaeda) are two completely different subjects.
The trouble in Iraq at the moment is (very!)basically down to dissident Iraqis vs the new (US-backed) Iraqi government. The reasons why America is involved at all is a whole different argument.
Osama Bin Laden, on the other had, is a terrorist leader and self-appointed saviour of the arab world. He comes from an affluent Saudi family, and is head of an illegal organization. His connection to Iraq, or to the reasons behind the fall of Saddam Hussein, is spurious at best.
George W Bush is President of the United States.
I don't get your post, I never said Bin Laden had anything to do with the irak war.
All Im saying is Bin Laden is as terrorist as Bush is, I dont care if he is the actual president of the United States, nor do I care for their background histories. Both are murderers, and you can't deny facts.
I feel better now Radiowaves. I don' t think you meant what you wrote... But you didn' t say "The Western governs are the terrorists" or "Bush, Blain and Aznar are the terrorist" you said "maybe The western countries are the real terrorists" Be carefull, man. I think nobody here wrote "Muslims are terrorists" or "Islam is an assassin religion". Why that "care" we use to talk about "them" is never applied when we talk about "us"?
On the other side, the thing that annoyed me most was:
Quote[Western and Northern forces should leave Middle East and Afghanistan alone and let them deal with their own problems.
What do you mean with "leave them to deal with their problems"? If you mean no military actions I might agree, but no because a terrorist blowing the WTC has taken my attention to the problem... I would agree per se, because wars are bad.
But what terrorists demmand is not that. Then don' t demmand us to take the tanks out of there (Actually Bin Laden told that the day the Afghanistar war started it was the happiest day in his life). What they demmand is "To take out any westers influence of the lands of the Islam".
Ok... so, do you want to condemn 99.9999 % of the muslims who do not agree with Bin Laden to renounce to:
Internet
Playboy
Planes
Gunpowder
Computers
Ipods
Televisions
Cars
FACILITIES TO EXTRACT PETROL,
etc...?
I have some muslims friends, you know? And I wouldn' t like to isolate them of the rest of the world because a jerk in the mountains of Tora Bora thinks that is what Quran says.
And you should stop repeating the manifesto. It' s old fashioned and nobody swallows it. The West is not exploding "the Arabs" or "Latin America" or "Asia". The countries which best level of life are those who open their bourdaries to the world and accept the laws of free market. Compare Santo Domingo (Capitalist) and Haiti (Socialist). Hong Kong and China. North and South Korea. Compare Qatar and Iraq. Compare Iraq and Iran now, and before the socialistic dictadures of Saddam and the Religious dictadure of the Ajatollahs with the "before", when Iraq and Iran were "with us", and not "without". If someone is "consuming", the resources of the third world are the left dictators who place their countries in front of the "West" as an excuse in front of their people to hide their own corruption. Have in mind that Castro is one of the biggest fortunes of the world, like Arafat was, Sani Abacha, Lukashenko, Kim Jon Il, etc... How nice is to yell "They are the terrorists! They are the ones who are killing is by famine!!!" to the masses when you have billions of dollars in Switzerland of the Cayman Islands, eh? I would be communist that way, also... How nice is to tell "Maybe the West are the terrorists" comfortably seated in Estonia, far away from Spain, which has pointed by Al-Qaeda as primary objective to recover by the Islam, as the old "Al-Andalus"! How easy is to talk without thinking!
and Ikari... That' s not ridiculous.... Because Radiowaves didn' t wrote "Bush is a terrorist". He wrote "The West is the real terrorist". So, read their post again, and then post again.
Quote from: Nacho on Sat 14/07/2007 23:34:17and Ikari... That' s not ridiculous.... Because Radiowaves didn' t wrote "Bush is a terrorist". He wrote "The West is the real terrorist". So, read their post again, and then post again.
I thought it was obvious he meant the country leaders, why would your spanish friend or any victim be called a terrorist ???
QuoteWestern and Northern forces should leave Middle East and Afghanistan alone and let them deal with their own problems.
Shame we caused most of their problems in the first place.
The whole situation is a royal fuck-up. Take Afghanistan:
The Soviet Union occupies Afghanistan to support the marxist Afghan regime against the CIA-backed insurgent rebel forces, among whose number is a young Osama Bin Laden and the beginnings of what would evolve into al Qaeda. The rebel movement will eventually give birth to the Taliban government, who will, post 9/11, "harbour" Osama Bin Laden and his supporters and ultimately lead to the US invasion of Afghanistan and the downfall of said Taliban government.
That fact that the CIA helped the Taliban to power, giving rise to one of the harshest fundmentalist Islamic regimes in modern Afghanistan, only then to suffer US military losses in a bid to destroy it, is an indication of US/CIA involvment in the Middle-East as a whole.
Similar deal in Iraq. Countries such as France, Germany, Italy, the UK, and the US, sell to and build the means for Iraq to start stockpiling chemical-based weapons, the same "Weapons of Mass Destruction" the US would later invade Iraq over.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Until my friend becomes my enemy. Then my only friend is myself.
But to blame the current US government wholesale for the problems in the Middle-East is futile and pointless.