The Afterlife... (And a little bit about human nature, too)

evenwolf · Thu 07/12/2006 13:22:30

lo res man:

all the sign language experiments with apes led to inconclusive evidence. To date, there is no proof that any animal uses language in any other way than just repeating words spoken or signed to them. In this way, you could view Koko as a parrot- learning up to a hundred phrases and simply issuing them back to her keepers often in nonsensical ways.

Language, as in the creative use of words to make new phrases and meaning, is the biggest difference between humans and animals. Koko is no exception.

BTW: this is hilarious.

"Sexual Harassment

Koko has been "involved" in several sexual harassment lawsuits. At least three former employees, all female, have claimed that they were pressured into showing their breasts to Koko. They alleged that Dr. Patterson encouraged the behavior, often interpreted Koko's signs as requests for nipple display, and let them know that their job would be in danger if they "did not indulge Koko's nipple fetish". Koko has been known to playfully grab both male and female nipples without warning or provocation. Dr. Patterson claims that Koko uses the word "nipple" to refer to humans.[5]

All claims of harassment have been permanently dropped as of 21 November 2005 after the foundation and the parties involved reached the settlement."

Helm · Thu 07/12/2006 14:49:07

Quote from: biothlebop on Thu 07/12/2006 11:45:32
Quote from: Nostradamus on Thu 07/12/2006 08:19:56
..people like Sektor 13 should stop trying to put meanings and explanation over so simple stuff.

Why?
If faith motivates somone in this life, I don't see it as a neccesarily negative thing.

I agree, though I have no faith I don't see on what authority Nostradamus proclaims what people should and shouldn't do.

edit: ... oh wait, Nostradamus. Figure of authority on wordly things. I'm setting myself up for a joke here.

MrColossal · Thu 07/12/2006 15:07:24

Quote from: biothlebop on Thu 07/12/2006 11:45:32
Why?
If faith motivates somone in this life, I don't see it as a neccesarily negative thing.

terrorism, suicide bombings, inquisitions, crusades, honor killings, slavery, the caste system, witch trials, gay marriage bans, faith based initiatives, faith tampering with science, etcetera...

granted "I believe in reincarnation" is different than "I believe I should kill these people..." but in my opinion, even seemingly innocuous personal faith can lead to hate or ignorance or both.

I am in no way saying Sektor is any of these things, just answering a question. Maybe as an American surrounded by faith based idiocy in the government and sciences I'm more sensitive than the rest of the rational world?

Nikolas · Thu 07/12/2006 15:29:20

Well... as far as I know Sektor 13 has nothing to do with the States, and furthermore I could possibly name 1000s of things that would cause gay marriage bans, witch trials, terrorism, etc... (won't copy your whole post...). Of course when you mention "faith tampering with science", I can't find much to say, but I could say "finance tampering with science", which is actually quite as bad/good as faith doing so.

Either way this subject only has to do about what someone thinks about something, nobody has a clue on... So without faith, how can you take part? Provided I think that there is some "kind" of heaven or hell, then I myself have some kind of faith and thus am dangerous to be lead to different "ideas"

While I understand you being sensetive to matters of faith, I just wanted to point out that there are many more things that could result in the exact same problems as faith... :-/

I really can't see faith motivating someone in his life,as a neccesarily negative thing... (exactly as biolthebop says).

MrColossal · Thu 07/12/2006 15:37:45

But the question wasn't "If faith motivates somone in this life, I don't see it as a neccesarily negative thing. Also, are there other factors that could lead to negative things?"

There's no reason for me to talk on the possible other contributing factors.

One doesn't need faith to have an opinion on the unknown.

There is not a single instance you can think of when someone's faith in a certain religion has lead to a negative outcome? Not a single solitary instance? It's always something else?

Nikolas · Thu 07/12/2006 15:47:47

Definately I can think when faith "screwed up", and still does. And not only in the States, but all around the world... I'm not trying to defend faith here. Don't care much to defend it anyways...

But Sektors post didn't seem to me as projecting any kind of faith. The same way I said what I thought is happening, he said it as well. He thinks that we reincarnate, because he otherwise finds little reason of us being here... I don't see absoltuely nothing to dictate faith to any religion really, by that post only.

You need to believe something in order to have an opinion on the unkonwn. not neccesarily to believe in something, but either way chances are that all that we think about afterlife are wrong... (who knows really). The idea is that yyou don't base your opinion on the unknown, on logic, but on something else...

MrColossal · Thu 07/12/2006 16:00:48

I wasn't even really speaking on what Sektor said, I was answering a question that also wasn't really about Sektor.

I don't quite understand the last few sentences you wrote. If by saying "You need to believe something" you mean "you need to have faith in something" then I disagree.

"The idea is that yyou don't base your opinion on the unknown, on logic, but on something else... "

Also, that confuses me a little. Do you mean me specifically?

Nikolas · Thu 07/12/2006 16:10:07

First of all since you were not referingto sektor, then there is no problem

Now, I wasnt' refering to you at all, on believe and faith and so foruth.

Somehow in order to have an opinion on something that is unknown, you will eventually have to base your opinion on something else than logic or facts, exactly like faith. This does not mean that your beliefs about what happens in the unknown are based on faith, but they share the same kind of non reasoning more or less... So it doesn't take faith, for me, but it takes some kind of "belief system", or anyway some kind of "thoughts" if you like on which you will base your opinion. There is no way of doing this rationally, or based in facts, or by logic. That's what I'm saying.

"The idea that yyou...", no I don't mean you specifically, of course not.

MrColossal · Thu 07/12/2006 16:21:44

Alright, thanks for clarifying.

To reiterate: as I said, I was in no way trying to attack Sektor.

But I don't think someone has to eventually have faith or faith-like views the more and more one gets into the unknown.

One just has to stop and say "I don't know yet." and that's hard to do sometimes and yet it should be the easiest thing ever. "I don't know" usually means to some people "I haven't thought about it" when it could very well be "I have given a lot of thought to it, weighed all the evidence and there is too little evidence for me to make a proper conclusion at this time, so I don't know yet.". In my opinion at least.

biothlebop · Thu 07/12/2006 16:40:20

Why couldn't a person with faith-like-views say so?

MrColossal · Thu 07/12/2006 16:50:01

I don't understand the question.

biothlebop · Thu 07/12/2006 16:57:33

Sorry, read your posts sloppily and realised after hand that you had not really presented the argument I formulated my question for.

lo_res_man · Thu 07/12/2006 17:14:08

Faith is a tool, it can build cathedrals, create health care, help the homeless, preserve learning, feed the hungry help orphans and lepers. It can convince a woman to give her entire life to help others, and can convince a prince to give up a kingdom to find truth, it can convince a scientist the world has natural laws to be discovered. Faith is how you use it. Some use it as an excuse to be xenophobic, others use it as a source of strength to reach out and help others.

Erenan · Thu 07/12/2006 17:22:33

I agree completely. People see people using faith as an excuse or a reason to do bad things, and all of a sudden people target faith itself as bad. But it's not fair to do this because faith and religion in general are so incredibly broad.

Helm · Thu 07/12/2006 17:26:34

People without faith can do bad things just as well. Eric, for example the Nazis (do I win this internet argument now?!) killed millions of gupsies, jews, communists, homosexuals, whatevers based on philosophical grounds, not religious. In fact, I'd say all the bad things you attribute to faith-based beliefs are actually using faith to justify their atavistic (that is purely instinctual, animalistic) ignorance, fear, need for control and domination.

MrColossal · Thu 07/12/2006 17:35:06

Again, I didn't say people without faith can't do bad things.

I can't get into the rest of your post now because it would take more time than I can spare at work. Games only take so long to build!

Sam. · Thu 07/12/2006 17:59:42

I Believe dying is like a journey, you go into a big black room and nothing happens because you are dead and need to stop imagining there is more to life. Dead means dead. There wasn't anything before life and there isnt anything after.

lo_res_man · Thu 07/12/2006 18:13:12

An interesting scientific fact is that, theoretically, you can use next to no energy to create information, but to forget HAS to take energy.(i could be wrong, read that in a hard sci-fi book, as well a book on quibits and information theory) So...who knows, it may mean nothing.

LimpingFish · Thu 07/12/2006 18:44:00

Maybe what we percieve as Life is actually an Afterlife to a previous Life.

Huh? Huh? What about THAT one, eh?

...

LGM · Thu 07/12/2006 18:47:09

I think Gandalf puts it quite nicely, guys:

"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path... One that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass... And then you see it... White shores... and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."