Seriously AGS-folk, I am dissapointed in you.
The biggest political event for the last 4 years is happening in November, and none of the politcally minded folks on these here forums have made a topic!
I implore you to spout opinion, throw mud, and generally harrass each other!
- Huw
PS: And, to have a more normal start to a thread...
Hey folks,
The US presidential elections are up in 6 months time, what do you lot think is going to happen?
- Huw
Whoever wins... We lose.
I feel an evident "Democrats battle against each other and McCain picks up all the fruit of it" discussion approaching. At least that seems to be the common comprehensus(+sp) around the world from NYTimes to Spiegel for what I have heard.
What do think of Brian Cowen?
I think he'll be a much better Taoiseach than Bertie Ahern. Borty was a rotten apple.
He seems a bit stiff, though.
They call him the "Big Ignorant Fucker From Offaly."
Edit: That wasn't random. I'm making a point about American's near-sightedness
Quote from: Huw Dawson on Fri 25/04/2008 14:38:30
The biggest political event for the last 4 years is happening in November, and none of the politcally minded folks on these here forums have made a topic!
Well exactly, it's not happening for another 6 months, why should we be thinking about it now? Do we start to talk about Christmas in July because it's only 6 months away?
Whatever happens it's likely that the media will find themselves unable to cover the actual policies of the candidates and just go on about the fact that the Democrat candidate is black or a woman instead, so I can't say I'm particularly psyched up about the whole thing.
CJ, I'm always in awe of your ability to take things as they are and sum it up with perfect simplicity, without all the fanciful theatrics with which I do it...
Ooh, tell Sweet and Big Smoke I said hi!
Quote from: Pumaman
Well exactly, it's not happening for another 6 months, why should we be thinking about it now? Do we start to talk about Christmas in July because it's only 6 months away?
Whatever happens it's likely that the media will find themselves unable to cover the actual policies of the candidates and just go on about the fact that the Democrat candidate is black or a woman instead, so I can't say I'm particularly psyched up about the whole thing.
Ditto! Good one CJ!
Personally, I hate politics. And that's that.
Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 25/04/2008 15:59:59
Well exactly, it's not happening for another 6 months, why should we be thinking about it now? Do we start to talk about Christmas in July because it's only 6 months away?
Whatever happens it's likely that the media will find themselves unable to cover the actual policies of the candidates and just go on about the fact that the Democrat candidate is black or a woman instead, so I can't say I'm particularly psyched up about the whole thing.
Well, considering that the Democrat race has just been given more oomph by Clinton getting back in the race, I thought it would kill two birds with one stone - it gets us talking about something, and it serves as an interesting discussion as the three knock seven bells out of each other.
Well, technically 4, but Nader can never get more than around 2% of the vote because of the rights that the Democrats and Conservatives to close down his meetings and speeches... "This is a democratic country... as long as we ultimately end up being in charge".
And I agree with CJ on the "ZOMG! A BLACK/WOMAN IS RUNNING!" comments that the US media will be able to shout rather than confusing the average hasn't-got-two-brain-cells-to-rub-together voter.
Of course, any fool can see that Obama should run... he doesn't have an annoying accent (6 months of Hilary... my ears will be ripped off and I'd have shot myself! :=) and he has a certain amount of defence because of his ethnicity - being Black it is much harder to force an Ad Hominem attack at him (the bread and butter of US Presidential campaigns) - unfortunatly you can get away with rampant sexism - anybody woman who protests can be spun as a feminist, and I think everybody knows a feminist joke...
I think that Have I Got News for You sums it up - "Obama and Clinton are racing in the polls to see who gets to be beaten by McKane". If the depression hits hard before the autumn, voters in the US will go Conservative. Of course, the Democrats won the House of Representatives two years ago, maybe that momentum could carry through to the Senate?
- Huw
Huw, I think that you are trying to keep the flame of a thread that interests nobody, actually...
It's interesting, but interesting in the same way that a tooth extraction is. It's going to be long, painful and messy, and cost the earth.
I'm penciling in Ron Paul on my ballot, regardless. That's really all I have to say about this.
My take on the subject:
For the President of the United States, it doesn't really matter who wins. Only candidate that can play the game of bald, rich, clever white men making deals on country fate... is McCain. And he won't win (or so it seems). So, anyone else would simply be a puppet.
After all, USA has a president. Always had.
It's American Dollar.
So whoever wins, dollar still decides everything. Earth would still spin around, people would still eat hamburgers and watch Hollywood movies. And money keeps circulating.
---
But for the other (unwritten) role of US president, something near world leader?
Someone with strong voice in global matters?
Here, we are doomed. I don't see how hillbilly woman or raised-muslim black man would make important decisions for rest of the globe. Racist or not, I think that both main candidates are... well... not material for this. In that position, good leader must have a bit broader vision that extends over that tiny bit of large continent we call USA. They do not seem to be those people up for the task.
The leadership in US, how it's built, sounds sometimes like a strange social experiment, similar to Soviet Union. Too many nukes under one persons finger. But I'm sure there's some kind of shadow system to keep everything in order even if things hit the fan. Maybe some dark project with a Delta Force operative and M24 sniper rifle with a bullet for president and coverup legend/forged evidence ready to blame someone else, if president crosses some invisible line... Just wondering. Could make a cool story, hmm.
Quote from: Huw Dawson on Fri 25/04/2008 21:25:33If the depression hits hard before the autumn, voters in the US will go Conservative.
Somehow, I think you have that backwards.
Anyhow, American politics frustrates me. I'm a socialist, so there's little to get me excited in the race between the Very Conservative Party and the Slightly Conservative Party. I know that Americans are all about the laissez-faire economics, but maybe the recession will force opinion in the opposite direction somewhat.
I hope Obama wins; I like his platform a lot more than Clinton's, he has a lot more charisma than Clinton, and I simply don't trust Clinton ever since she let herself be intimidated into dropping her universal health care initiative. I don't like McCaine's politics, but he's the most respectable out of the candidates that he defeated, and I wouldn't be as disgusted with him being president as I would be with, say, Huckabee or Paul.
Quote from: InCreator on Fri 25/04/2008 22:23:06
I don't see how hillbilly woman or raised-muslim black man would make important decisions for rest of the globe. Racist or not, I think that both main candidates are... well... not material for this.
Please tell me you mean something other than what that looks like.
Quote from: Huw Dawson on Fri 25/04/2008 14:38:30
The biggest political event for the last 4 years is happening in November,
Psah. Talk about hybris. The China olympic games and its Tibet controversy, as well as the present Zimbabwe situation, are presently way more important than that mudslinging circus you call an election. America is not nearly as important to the rest of the world as it thinks it is. Although with a bowl of popcorn, the continual flaming can be fun to watch.
I'm reasonably sure the democrats have ruined their chances by now through their vicious infighting. That may be for the best, however, as with the present economical crisis, the next president will probably have to make too many harsh decisions to stay popular for long.
Well, when the richest and most powerful (theoretically) country on Earth gathers together to decide what the majority want to do for the next 4 years, I think that it is a pretty important event in its own right. You have to remember that this is a country of 250,000,000 people.
By the way, what is with all the negativity towards a bit of debate these days? Has everyone simply stopped caring? I try and up the posting activity with a little bit of political debate...
:P
Anyway, I heard that the big three all made speeches on RAW a few nights back, though. Anyone see it, or got a clip? It sounds pretty interesting.
- Huw
EDIT: I'm a leftie too, for the record. The stagnation in the US political system is really a sight to behold. At least in the UK we have a "nearly socialist" party... granted, it's the Lib Dems (rather than New Labour), but still.
I think people give way too much credit to their 'president'. Nobody ever notices the army of advisers and councilors and officials who make absolutely sure that every tiny 'decision' the president 'makes' is the best course of action. Instead they fixate on who's preacher is making a fool of himself, or who's campaign adverts are going over the top to determine the next president. But it doesn't matter. Politicians are all the same.
Do you really think the reason tens of thousands of men and tanks are rolling over Iraqi soil thousands of miles away is because of some old Texan at the white house? That was decades in the making, yet people seem to think Bush just snapped his fingers and made it happen on a whim, just for the laugh.
Quote from: Huw Dawson on Sun 27/04/2008 20:57:00
Well, when the richest and most powerful (theoretically) country on Earth gathers together to decide what the majority want to do for the next 4 years, I think that it is a pretty important event in its own right.
When you consider that the majority in this case is a rather slim one, and the two big ones aren't
that different, the impact lessens considerably.
Well, one has it's election this year. :P The worrying thing about America and China is that they are so similar, yet neither really talk to each other.
- Huw
Anyone else notice the complete lack of anything in the news other than Obama V Clinton?
They are covering up somthing else thats going on by distracting you with crap about an election thats still 6 months off.
Anyone know whats going on in Iraq at the moment? No, because they arent reporting it, they are distracting you with Election talk.
Never before have i seen them make such a big deal out the the compitition of 2 candidates from the same party. Its not like both of them can run, and its not like the public has any say in who gets to run.
We all know Obama cant be President, hes black and hes an Arab. No im not Racist, but the shit would hit the fan if he got in, especially in the southern states!
Clinton is a Woman who is only there because of the arrangement made when Bill was caught with his pants down. Again, im not sexist, but alot of Older people are, and again the shit would hit the fan IMO.
Seems to me with all this publicity, they are both doing more damage to their reputations than good too.
If either Clinton or Obama get in, the EC will just enstate McCain.
Why? Because the people who really run the US (The reserve bank, DuPont, Arms Dealers ect) want the turmoil in the Middle East to continue. McCain has the same dumbass Attitude as bush and will make a Perfect puppet. Hell, hes already stated that they will be in Iraq for the next 100 years...
QuoteI think people give way too much credit to their 'president'. Nobody ever notices the army of advisers and councilors and officials who make absolutely sure that every tiny 'decision' the president 'makes' is the best course of action. Instead they fixate on who's preacher is making a fool of himself, or who's campaign adverts are going over the top to determine the next president. But it doesn't matter. Politicians are all the same.
That's what I meant with "game for rich, white, bald men". President is a fool who is put infront of the people and has to deliver those deals and decisions made behind closed doors to the public. Clinton with her head full of myriad of human rights, law schooling and girl power-attitude doesn't really sound like a woman capable of doing this.
QuotePlease tell me you mean something other than what that looks like.
I do. She's an American. Not much else.
I don't see her sitting down with - let's say, Iran leaders or president of the Russia and really understand other part.
One thing is to lead a country, another thing is to lead one of the most hated nations in the world. Whole Islamic part of the world (Africa, Middle East) and Slavic part of the world (Russia, many of the former Soviet countries) and of course, Asia (Koreans, Chinese, whoever) hate USA. Could this woman be diplomat enough to easen those tensions?
Does she understand differences between cultures?
I doubt it.
And how much respect does she get from - let's say, an islamic leader? How do muslims think about women?
This though could generate a whole new thread.
I think that best leader are historians. People with wide knowledge of history and foreign culture. Law? Hell no.
Then again, what do we know? Bush, looking so simple-minded, innocent, and manipulable -- led half of the world into a war. But maybe pacifists don't really have a place in White House?
QuoteHow do muslims think about women?
Muslims are not just found in the Middle East. They are more than capable of listening to and electing female leaders. Please look up the following women, who were in positions of political power in Muslim dominated or heavily Muslim countries:
Sirimavo Bandaranaike
Indira Gandhi
Sheikh Hasina Wajed
Begum Khaleda Zia
Aung San Suu Kyi
Sonia Gandhi
Wan Azizah Wan Ismail
Benazir Bhutto
Megawati Sukarnoputri
Chandrika Kumaratunga
However you may personally feel about their politics - women cannot be excluded from politics because "mushlimz won't listen lol" when that is blatantly false.
I was hoping for it to come down to a heated race between Ron Paul and Kucinich... Unfortunately neither of them are going to have the support neccesary to make even a write in election a remote possibility. Election day is not the time for me to vote for what we need, it' s time for me to throw an extra grain of rice into the bucket that will most likely serve the American people better than the other largest bucket.
The American political system, in fact the American goverment, is flawed. We are essentially forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. We need a president, or representatives, with enough gumption to change our two party system. Hell, while we're at it lets reform the presidency. One term, 6 years, that's the way F. Roosevelt wanted it after his presidency, that's the way J. Carter wanted it. Until our political system changes voting for any party other than the two main parties is essentially nothing other than supporting a cause, which sucks. I love America, but God Damn American politics... I wish I was Swedish... =P
You're not getting anything about Iraq at the moment? That's pretty shoddy - admittedly there hasn't been any real event for the last few weeks, but we at least get special reports and the "10 Days to War" series...
I'd just say vote for a little guy anyway. Screw the system - one vote won't matter for the big parties, but it will matter for small candidates like Neder and such.
- Huw
Quote from: Fee on Mon 28/04/2008 00:06:05
Clinton is a Woman who is only there because of the arrangement made when Bill was caught with his pants down. Again, I'm not sexist, but alot of Older people are, and again the shit would hit the fan IMO.
That's bullshit. America is about the only western country in the world that's never had a female president. Our current and previous president are female (and named Mary).
Quote from: InCreator on Mon 28/04/2008 01:32:07
And how much respect does she get from - let's say, an islamic leader? How do muslims think about women?
Again. That's bullshit. Even Pakistan has had a female president -- which has about 150 million muslims.
Quote from: Huw Dawson on Mon 28/04/2008 11:26:00
You're not getting anything about Iraq at the moment? That's pretty shoddy - admittedly there hasn't been any real event for the last few weeks, but we at least get special reports and the "10 Days to War" series...
Everyday more people get put into body bags, stacked onto piles, etc... The "Iraq War" is more than just a waste of money, it's a disgusting atrocity that continues to pool negativity in an area of the world that wasalready steeped in such.
QuoteI'd just say vote for a little guy anyway. Screw the system - one vote won't matter for the big parties, but it will matter for small candidates like Neder and such.
The Clinton family is just as corrupt as the Bush family. I have no doubt that with her we would no longer be in a recession (at least to as heinous of a degree) but the economy was real good under Harding as well... anybody remember him? If not, look him up.
McCain used to be an individual but he's been wrung out and used against his will so many tims that now he just does what he's told. Either he's smarter than the rest of them and is hiding his true intentions or he's another puppet.
Obama is relatively clean and he's got some good plans but he's a lobbiest bitch just like the rest of them, so it's just a matter of what changes.
If Hil-Rod gets the nomination, I'm voting Ron Paul. If Obama get's the nomination, Instead of risking McCains league of justice be the same as the current one, I'll ante up to the popular pot. If 30% of the people that voted for any party OTHER than the main two would have voted for Gore or Kerry (though Gore is a economic lightweight and Kerry would have been a bland puppet) we wouldn't have had to suffer through the worst dollar rate in years, the lowest poverty percentage in decades. We're in the worst economic slump since the great depression. I'm sorry, I just can't risk it. 364 days out of the year I will march, campaign and support reforming our electoral/political system. But until it changes, when this country as a whole DOES have something to lose, I can't see myself letting it go to chance. Maybe i'll have a change of heart and support the little guy, but I think the better solution than supporting the little guy is by trying to make him NOT so little. Until he can hang with the big boys, in this election I can't warrant a nything other than a major party.
Emerald,
Unfortunately the majority of Americans are sexist and racist. For some reason most of us think that a woman nor a non-caucasian can perform as well as as a white male. To be honest it's retarded. America needs to grow up , eh?
Meh.
Democracy is nothing more than a popularity contest these days.
It's not about who's best for the job, it's about whose name is accompanied by the best campaign slogan, photo opportunities and use of carefully chosen and over-repeated buzzwords and stock phrases.
"Hey, Obama goes bowling! That must mean he's the most capable of running the country!"
"And what makes you sufficient at negotiating with the IRA?"
"Well, leading up to the election, I made a series of short videos showing my family hanging around the house acting normal for the cameras, and I put them up on the web."
Whoop-de-bastarding-doo.
I mean, sure there are some people who do the research and vote for the candidate that supports their views, but they're swamped by the masses of plebians that vote for someone purely because they like his smile.
If I were registered to vote, I'd send these clowns a message by staying home on election day and dressing up like a clown.
It's funny that you mention Indira Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto as an example of female leaders respected by their population ^_^.
Actually, they were just examples of female leaders in countries with substantial Muslim populations. Whether you agree with what they did once they were in power or not, many of them successfully engaged with populist politics to get elected, so the idea that Hilary Clinton is a bad candidate for the US elections by virtue of her being a woman and therefore Muslims will not listen is a bit...hamfisted...and just covers up the posters own sexism.
Quote from: Becky on Wed 30/04/2008 10:59:05Whether you agree with what they did once they were in power or not, many of them successfully engaged with populist politics to get elected, so the idea that Hilary Clinton is a bad candidate for the US elections by virtue of her being a woman and therefore Muslims will not listen is a bit...hamfisted...
Being from a country that is largely run by women and has a female president (on her second term), I completely agree with Becky. It's quite ignorant to assume things through narrow stereotypes. Though, personally I'm rooting for Obama :).
Quote from: Becky on Wed 30/04/2008 10:59:05and just covers up the posters own sexism.
No doubt.
In my heart I root for Obama, but I'm not sure that would help much. There is such a financial mess in USA now that it would be good if the Republicans could remain in the white house just to clean up their own mess.
In Sweden it's quite traditional that the right-wings take power once per two decades; they lift a lot of taxes and drain the finances to become popular for a few years. When there is no more money, the "left"-wings take back power and have to spend several years to restore the economy.
I dunno...I for one wouldn't want to take over the presidency of the States at this point.
Quote from: Andail on Wed 30/04/2008 12:19:19There is such a financial mess in USA now that it would be good if the Republicans could remain in the white house just to clean up their own mess.
The problem though is that the two cabinets are different kinds of Republicans. Bush's cabinet and allegiance belongs to the neo-cons, whereas McCain represents the traditional part of the party. There's been speculation that McCain would take Condoleezza Rice as his running mate, but like many have said, that would make no sense at all since they come from two different ideologies. The basis for that argument was the chance of getting a black female to balance out Obamania.
Quote from: Andail on Wed 30/04/2008 12:19:19In Sweden it's quite traditional that the right-wings take power once per two decades; they lift a lot of taxes and drain the finances to become popular for a few years. When there is no more money, the "left"-wings take back power and have to spend several years to restore the economy.
Democrats are the ones attributed to high taxes in the US. It may not be true, but it's the Republicans that are largely seen as the less-elitist, more grounded and closer to the people. This is where the two Republican ideologies vastly differ. Neo-cons are against high taxes, they favor the rich, widen the income and class gap, support large government and are conservative in one definition of the word. Traditional Republicans are the people of Reagan. They support free trade, small government, state autonomy, traditional values and are conservative in another definition.
Think of them like this: traditional republicans are your grandparents who are always a little weary of the changes going on in the world and would prefer to go back to the old days, whereas neo-cons are your evil uncle who likes to molest you when no one's looking.
One line of progress here can be seen with Gitmo for example. It's widely estimated that whoever of the three candidates wins, Guantanamo Bay will be closed down within the next 2-3 years. All three candidates have come heavily against the jail and torture in general. If Romney had won the nomination, the future would be a lot darker and riskier.
Does it strike anyone as ironic that before the elections, the major parties spend almost a full year campaigning, putting up their best face for the populace, and making a complete media circus out of everything?
This means, apparently, that 20% to 25% of the time, this takes precedence to actually running the country.
Quote from: Ultra Magnus on Wed 30/04/2008 04:49:46
"And what makes you sufficient at negotiating with the IRA?"
"Well, leading up to the election, I made a series of short videos showing my family hanging around the house acting normal for the cameras, and I put them up on the web."
What does a disbanded Irish paramilitary organisation have to do with American politics?
Unless you're talking about negotiating with the International Reading Association...
Quote from: Emerald on Wed 30/04/2008 23:38:08
What does a disbanded Irish paramilitary organisation have to do with American politics?
Unless you're talking about negotiating with the International Reading Association...
A) About as much as David Cameron. 'Twas merely an example.
B) I was under the impression that there were several IRAs, and that most of the sub-factions were still around.
C) Ira Gershwin, actually. 8)