Ban for violent games?

[MrColossal]

That doesn't make the culture violent, Janik. If people made violent games because there was violence in the street then maybe.. But even so, I feel it'd be hard to proove that. Especially when violent games rarely take place in the streets or in contemporary times.

There's also a huge market for romance novels but I never see people saying because we live in a romantic society.

"Oh god it's horrible, there's romance in the streets! Hide the children!"

[Raggit]

I've always been fascinated by this debate, not only with violent/controversial video games, but also movies and music and so on. 

It's hard to deny that media has an influence on you.  It does.  Which is why it's so powerful.  That, of course, includes video games.

After first discovering Duke Nukem 3D, for instance, I noticed that I had become more interested in guns and weapons. 

Keyword: Noticed. 

I understood that the game was influencing me, and I also understood that it was a GAME, and trying to mimic the action in real life was no way to solve real problems.

Kids who go and shoot up their schools aren't doing so because of aggressive music, violent video games or movies.  They are, however, drawn to the harsher games, music and movies due to an already bad attitude.  At most, the media irritates the situation.

The Ranting Gryphon did an awesome job summarizing this debate.

Here be adult langauge and thought-stimulation:

http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Rants/2rant-movie_violence.mp3

(This one's about movie violence)

http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Rants/2rant-military.mp3

(It starts out about violent videos on the net, and the military, but it becomes more relevant to this topic towards the end.)

[ManicMatt]

After playing a Tony Hawks skateboard game for sheer hours on end, I went on a bus to town. During the journey without thinking about it, I was looking at the buildings and things to see where there are potential skating lines I could achieve. Before thinking I can't actually skate so why am I thinking such things.

But thinking and doing is two different things.

Still, I've never found myself actually mimicking games, except maybe saying "Fo 'sho" like CJ does in GTA for a laugh. (No, not THAT CJ!)

[MrColossal]

When I first discovered Quake I played it nonstop for hours...

Once.. ONCE! I almost... ALMOST! straffed around a corner a hallway in my house...

[Helm]

When I play Tetris, I play Tetris hard. After hours, I go to sleep and have Tetris matches in my dreams.

[fred]

The thing about violence in games is that you never see the downside or the after effects.

I thought about doing a 1st person shooter once, that would take violence and gore levels to their extremes. On kills, enemies wouldn't simply fall to the ground, but literally explode in cascades of gore, that splattered and stuck to the player 'camera', like this:



There would then be a control dedicated to wiping gore from the screen (or the 1st person goggles or whatever), like this:



Gore obscuring the FOV would set a natural limit to the amount of killing in the game, since half the time the player wouldn't be able to see a thing, missing enemies while frantically wiping the blood from his eyes and face. So the more violent the player, the more he (or she) would have to wipe. And the more gore, the less actual killings.

All anyone could ever ask for, right?

[Raggit]

Hehe, interesting idea!  But it would get a little annoying after awhile, not being able to see.  I think it would be better if the gore only splattered on the camera every now and again, say from a powerful weapon, or close range kill.

[EagerMind]

Kind of a cool idea. But you might as well go all the way with it: the floor gets slippery from the pools of blood, or you lose your footing as you step through/over/on piles of bodies, etc.

[ManicMatt]

Could you contract aids as well?

[MrColossal]

There was a game for the Phillips CD-I I believe called PO'd where you killed a bunch of... things... and when you used a violent weapon it left blood on the screen that a hand wiped off.

Just throwing that out there because someone has to mention the CD-I at least once a year. Or it will come back and kill us all...

[Dmitri]

First:

In the german version of HL, the (human) guards and scientists took a seat when shot, and they began to cry

LOL

second:

I understand where people are coming from when they're against violent video games. It doesn't affect people who play it for fun and can differentiate between reality and video games (i.e. 99.99999% of gamers) but we forget the 0.000001% of gamers who can't make that differentiation (sufferers of schizophrenia). I read statements of people who 'went crazy' who reportedly thought they were playing Postal 2 and drove around clubbing people to get points. These people go on a rampage and kill... they're loony. You can argue that a sufferer schizophrenia inclined to kill people would do so without the help of video games, but I'm still saying that the violence is THERE and it's interactive. Of course banning video games isn't 'the answer', there's no such THING as 'an answer' for manic rampages when somebody goes crazy.

[MrColossal]

I read statements of people who 'went crazy' who reportedly thought they were playing Postal 2 and drove around clubbing people to get points. These people go on a rampage and kill... they're loony.

Do you have any sources for this?

Sounds highly suspect.

[lo_res_man]

Isn't this (video games make kids violent) mixing up cause with effect? Is the kid violent because of violent video games? Or likes video these video games because he's violent? As well, I object to Janik's statement that

Kids are pretty dumb and easily influenced,

I agree kids are relatively easy to influence, but kids are not dumb. At least, no more dumb then any adult. Ever read those, kids say the darndist things-type stories? The kids are piecing fact together, they just don't have all the information. And if having access to information equaled smarts, with the web, we should all be geniuses. I think a child's native intelligence is probably determined either genetically, or very early. Say kids are east to influence if you want, but don't ever call them dumb.

[Dmitri]

I read statements of people who 'went crazy' who reportedly thought they were playing Postal 2 and drove around clubbing people to get points. These people go on a rampage and kill... they're loony.

Do you have any sources for this?

Sounds highly suspect.

unfortunately not, I read that in a bbc news post on the interwebs years ago, I'd be hard pressed to dig it up.

If you want something better, here's something I found

Critics of video game violence generally agree that violent video games are at least as bad an influence on children as are television shows with the same level of violence and cruelty, and most seem to believe that video games are more threatening to a child's well-being, because the video game player uses the controller to make an on screen character act out the violence personally. It was widely reported that the killers in the Columbine High School massacre were, like many teenagers, fans of first-person shooter games. They had recorded a videotape before the massacre in which they said they looked forward to using their shotguns just as in the game Doom.

Also from 10 most infinite WADS

No point in beating around the bush: Eric Harris made some Doom WADs, and then he killed people. One of the Doom community's greatest trials was in April 1999, when Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold opened fire in their Colorado high school and created a new culture of fear and paranoia. After it was discovered that the pair played Doom, many avid Doomers found their computer gaming habits placed under scrutiny. The WAD itself, Harris' most elaborate, is unremarkable except for a few now-chilling features. The monsters have brand-new death graphics, doused in added blood and gore. And the text file's admonition of "KILL 'EM AAAAALLLL!!!!!," which would normally be nothing more than adolescent juvenilia, carry a certain premonitory weight. (Ling)

I have to stipulate though, I don't think video games are RESPONSIBLE for columbine. Columbine happened because Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were arsewipes. I'm saying that video games clearly condone gorey violence that can influence people who don't know the meaning of 'fantasy'.

[EagerMind]

No point in beating around the bush: Eric Harris made some Doom WADs, and then he killed people.

Is this serious?

I suppose the fact that these kids were clinically-diagnosed sociopaths with apparently little or no parental involvement in their lives had nothing to do with them going on a murderous rampage.

Or how about the fact that they were able to stockpile shotguns and semi-automatic weapons with relative ease?

Or the fact that they displayed warning signs as early as 2 years prior to the incident - evening publicly posting death threats to other students on their website - yet no one took notice or intervened?

The fact is that these kids were seriously disturbed, deliberated and planned a massacre of their fellow students for years in advance, and after carrying out their plan turned their weapons on themselves and committed suicide. And we won't ever know the reason why or what set them off. From the Wikipedia article:

A thorough study of all U.S. school shootings by the U.S. Secret Service warned against the belief that a certain "type" of student would be a perpetrator. Any "profile" would fit too many students to be useful, and may not fit the potential perpetrators. "The researchers found that killers do not 'snap.' They plan. They acquire weapons. They tell others what they are planning. These children take a long, planned, public path toward violence. And there is no profile. Some lived with both parents in 'an ideal, All-American family.' Some were children of divorce, or lived in foster homes. A few were loners, but most had close friends." Instead of looking for traits, the Secret Service urges adults to ask about behavior: "What has this child said? Does he have grievances? What do his friends know? Does he have access to weapons? Is he depressed or despondent?"

Pointing out that these kids played a video game and then killed people is about as useful as pointing out that they poured milk on their cereal and then killed people.

video games clearly condone gorey violence that can influence people who don't know the meaning of 'fantasy'.

I don't see how killing fantastical creatures in a fictional environment is giving me permission to go out and kill people. And I don't see how getting rid of violence in video games will solve the problem of sociopaths who can't distinguish fantasy from reality. By this reasoning, we should get rid of anything fictional for fear that people who can't separate it from reality may somehow act out.

[Dmitri]

Allow me to rebut most of what you said by quoting myself

I have to stipulate though, I don't think video games are RESPONSIBLE for columbine. Columbine happened because Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were arsewipes.

Also, I don't advocate banning or getting rid of the violence in video games.

Of course banning video games isn't 'the answer', there's no such THING as 'an answer' for manic rampages when somebody goes crazy.

I'm definately not saying "everyone who plays video games is gonna take a glock and shoot his boss in the head for points" I agree if I wanted to take the line of reasoning that "banning video games will fix it" then we'd have to ban every kind of fiction. But I'm not saying that...

I'm saying that videogames of this sort are dangerous influences on people with schizophrenic or sociopathic behaviour (or young children who also have trouble distinguishing reality and fantasy). Hence, I understand why people are against such violence.

[boojiboy]

Can someone remind me? I could probably just wikipedia search it but I'll ask here.
What were the violent video games that Hitler used to play? Was it GTA? I can't remember. Help!

[ManicMatt]

That's because it was painting flowers that made him evil! Paintings are to blame! They are the cause! BAN FLOWERY PAINTINGS NOW!

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Not at all! It was Nietzche's Super-Human theory. BAN PHILOSOPHY!

[boojiboy]

Remember in the 50s? The comic book code being introduced? All because of the book 'seduction of the innocent'? That was the beginning of this crap. And people still buy it today (the theory not the book). In the book the author, Fredric Wertham "M.D.", stated inconclusive evidence that juvenile delinquents read violent comic books therefore violent comic books were a direct cause for the delinquency. He also stated that Batman and Robin were homosexual lovers but that's another story.

The children he neglected to report about were the

A) Stable children who read comics and
B) Delinquents who didn't read comics.
The former being obviously millions greater than the amounts of his reported influenced delinquents.

We have the exact same god damn thing happening now. Have you guys read some Tales from the crypts? Some are just as violent as most video games! But that's not the issue! Any child that is willing to act out scenes from a video game is unstable to begin with and without the influence of video games they could draw from films, books, music or flowers!

What I'm trying to get at is lets ban child molestors. Why haven't we done that yet?