Adventure Game Studio

"the Matrices"

Yeah, that's the real title alright, I dunno where all this "Reloaded" stuff came from.  But I just came back from seeing it.  From a film student's perspective: "eh."  From an every day theatre goers perspective: "woah..."

Naturally this film does not have the catch of creating the "reality" the first one does, it merely expands upon that reality.  Reloaded becomes more and more a cliche sci-fi movie "time is running out" sort of deal minute after minute and the CG at times, altho amazing, is still a bit lacking.  I don't care how many awesome fighting moves a guy uses if he still looks like rubber.   But the fight sequences are nicely choreographed.. and of course highly unrealistic. Haha, but that's 'ok' as long as they are "in the Matrix", right?

There are several sequences that are done in 3d binary which are very comical, even when trying to be serious, and the credits are like 15 minutes long. Haha, but other than the things I've ranted about- the movie is good.  Everyone will end up seeing it of course.

Yay! I'm a big fan of Matrices, my research subject is also Matrix Theory!














What? You're talking about some other thing? No, I never watched teh movies!



/me shuts up.

I determinant Gilbot to be funny.

I can't wait to see this movie. I only expect pure Hollywood entertainment, but as long as I have that expectation, I think I'll be okay.

-MillsJROSS

I still haven't even seen the original... Maybe I'll rent it soon.

I thought The Matrix was rather dumb, and I'm not planning on seeing the sequels

Pah,  I thought the matrix was Brilliant!!!

Can't wait to see the second actually! ;)

Just a word of caution from your friendly neighbourhood moderator, the second this starts turning into a 'teh mAtrix0r Sux0rr!!' and 'No it ARes NOT u r th smellL!' flame war *coughspongelgmevolvecough* then i'll be forced to do my locky-locky duties...  ;)

The matrix doesn't have enough gay robots in it.

My friend is going to the premiere tonight. I guess i'll hear all about it tommorow at school.

The only thing I really liked about the first Matrix was the story, and when I saw Dark City (from which The Matrix has probably stolen the story) there wasn't much left that I liked about the Matrix.  Sure it's an entertaining action flick, but I think it's very far from great and I don't have any hope for the sequels.

Lately I've been thinking of how much less interesting CG action scenes are. I'm very interested in the movie making process, and to know there weren't really any cool tricks or clever ideas used, but just computers instead, it doesn't impress me much at all. Kinda silly I guess :p

Quote from: Darr-rr-r-rr-rk Stalkey on Thu 15/05/2003 09:51:40
Just a word of caution from your friendly neighbourhood moderator, the second this starts turning into a 'teh mAtrix0r Sux0rr!!' and 'No it ARes NOT you are th smellL!' flame war *coughspongelgmevolvecough* then i'll be forced to do my locky-locky duties...  ;)

*shakes fist*
*notices stalkey*
*removes hand from gentials and hurls cum at stalkey*

I'm going there tomorrow :)

8)

I liked the action in The Matrix, but the story was teh redundan0rz for anyone that has read more than one good book of cyberpunk/sci fi.

I'll see the sequels for sure.

Aye, indeed.

A fan entertainin piece, which is great to spend a boring eve with, but can hardly be considered a classic.

well, it's the same everywhere,

Kind of hard to explain actually.... but for somehow if you are very interested in something that is not very popular (yet). You try to tell a lot of friends about it and then hope that they like it too and get some respect from them. Most of the time you share on internet communities how great it is.

THEN,
suddenly some freaks make a movie of it and everybody likes it. Somehow you think it's too bad because it's something you had and if you now start about it EVERYone knows about it.... Do I make any sense?

It happened with me too in some ways...

I never read any sci-fi/cyberspunk books, so this I found a very cool and refreshing story.

Hmmm, a choice between The Matrix, The Lizzie McGuire Movie, or Daddy Day Care.

I think I'll go with Keanu "Whoa" Reeves.

I'm very big Matrix fan... Too bad I have to wait 6 days to see it in cinema... :-\

seeing reloaded on my birthday, yey. \o/

The orginal was a great action movie, the plot didn't make sense in a whole lot of ways, but I'm cool with that, as it stuck to it's own rules...  And the bit where Reeves takes on the agents in the train station was an excellent "Every Fucker Fries" moment...

Anyone seen this?

http://www.crappyhosting.com/eloh/images/The%20Matrix%20(pizza%20remix).txt

(Copy and paste)

I must say, that the new Matrix did to me what the new Star Wars movies did. Or at least, something similar.

Like the great Helm0r said, the first film's plot has been done and done and done before. World-as-a-simulation coupled with robots-have-taken-over-the-world dystopian future. It had some style and some intelligence and some subtlety. That seems to have been removed from the latest film, much to my chagrin.

All in all, they lost me at the exploding vagina.

I saw it two/three months ago. My friend got it off the net. The visiual was so bad I just might have to see it again. It was kind of like making another "Scary Movie" film. It was good but they should have stopped at the first one.

Exploding Vagina? Does that mean they've gone from shoddy knock offs of cyberpunk and manga coupled with mutilations of HK Kung Fu films to knocking of Troma?

That's going too far man.

Maybe it would be better liked if it wasn't made fun of so much?

(Keano's bullet-time dodging stunt and more of the like...)

Who cares really, I liked the first, and I'm sure I'll like the second. But Even's got a point about the rubbery CG people fighting. Only the ignorant don't notice...but if you ask me, CG graphics for people/monsters stick out like a sore thumb and just plain suck ass.

Anyone see the new Matrix video game for PS2? I think it looks stupid... there wasn't much effort put into the detail in BG's if you ask me... their way too plain and empty...

(Snake remembers the good old simple days of NES)


--Snake

i saw it tonite, i didn't see the trailer for the 3rd, damn

don't read if you don't want to know what happens in a vague way this is your warning...








but anyway, Neo goes bendy during 90% of the fight scenes, a few fight scenes were very forced [before he meets the oracle... whathahell?]

and what was with the rave scene?

Agent Smith has a problem that he explains awkwardly, the oracle has help that she explains awkwardly, the architect explains his deal awkwardly, the french guy just talks and talks and talks about something or other that involves vaginas, I feel no anxiety throughout the movie because i know there is a third one coming, i know Naomi and Ghost won't die because they are the main characters of the damned Matrix game, the "bullet time" or whatever was a hinderance i feel, they slowed down awkward parts like when she drives her motorcycle kinda fast, or someone punches neo, or Morpheous sneezes [you know you woulda loved that] and why can agent smith duplicate himself? and why is the duplicated but real life agent smith [??] helping the machines by setting off the emp?

ah well, at least i didn't pay to go see it and there wasn't an annoying guy who said "Neo" everytime neo did something cool and cheered along with the people at zion...


oh wait


edit: oh yea and for a comment from jess "I liked Neo's dress."

my opinion? It was so-so

I actually came out of the cinema shaking my head and saying to myself "special effects is a poor excuse for a bad plot"

I honestly wasn't interested in the story, it was like watching a computer game, neo battled his way through the levels, battled the mini-bosses, and then came to the big boss...

and then there was the 'cliffhanger' everyone saw from a million kagillion miles away, Morpheus seemed too "academic" about having his beliefs questioned at the end... there's just so many bad things to say about it.

But the special effects were good, so that makes up for everything

I think this movie was great, both graphics and plot. As I went to a special Matrix evening (Matrix 1 + Matrix 2), it was easier to understand the story in Matrix 2 (the Architect's speech for exemple).
Well, I prefered the first one, but Matrix 2 is also a good movie.

Spoiler

Quotewhy can agent smith duplicate himself? and why is the duplicated but real life agent smith

Don't forget that agents aren't human. They are programs made by machines.
As the Matrix's an operating system, we can see the agent smith as a bugged program (because of Neo) which turned into an informatic virus.
Well, that's what I think.

[close]

Hmmm...I thought it was cool to like the Matrix...guess not :P.

Regardless I enjoyed both the first and second(saw it last night) as films.

I also enjoy the fact that it brings Baudrillard to the masses without them even knowing it ;) (no the Matrix was not stolen from Dark City, they were both stolen from Philosophy/Critical Theory/Old-school SciFi, as well as every other "World-as-a-simulation coupled with robots-have-taken-over-the-world dystopian future." ;D)

Yes, rubbery CGI, a bit overdone and not needed, that's what was so cool about FX in the first movie, that "effect" was done with REAL cameras, which is why it was fresh, CGI is anything but fresh now-a-days.

Perhaps people are expecting too much and trying to get too much out of the Matrix. It's just a movie, not an academic presentation. Who cares if it is original, unique, or whatever. It's just a hollywood movie. Does hollywood REALLY produce that much "good" entertainment? Perhaps I'm missing something?

Anyway, I liked Reloaded, it was an entertaining few hours and I'm really looking forward to Revolutions. It didn't educate or massively inspire me.

Then again the last movie that inspired me was "The Hours"

later,
-junc

I'm not gonna listen to any of this bull about plot and development.. To me, the last 2 movies are really just one long-ass movie..

So, the first one may seem awkward at parts.. But maybe all the weird explanations and quick dismissals that are strewn throughout will be sorted out in the third..

So, I say.. Just wait until the third before you start attacking plot, dialogue and such..

As for the graphics.. Yeah, there were parts were it looked fake (Mostly in the alley scene) But they did a great job of seamlessly streaming Neo from 3D-Neo to real neo. SO stop bitching, do you honestly think they could've done it any other way?

yes lgm, they could have done it a different way, when i saw the first movie i didn't see neo go all bendy and look like a rubber doll with wire bones

you feel they did it seamlessly i don't, why don't you stop bitching about everyone's bitching...

do what you want but why yell at us when you're doing the exact same thing?

anyway, it was a fine movie, it was fun and that's it i guess. xmen 2 was fun, spiderman was fun [though i just saw it again and hated the dialog] these are all fun movies and if i want to be challenged mentally i'll go watch "9 to 5"

jeez its amazing how ppl get worked up over a movie!
i've only seen the first one, on TV, maybe if i'd seen it on the big sceen i may of liked it more, the special effects where fantastic, and people point out some had floors but you can watch any movie and something is never 100% right, problem is we expect so much now, and we look much harder, 10 years ago we wouldn't of cared, 10 years on and who knows they might be 100% but we will still look harder to find the faults' i personally don't like it when the characters hang around in mid air for ages, but  the 360 camera shit is really cool.
its a great special effects movie,  but i thought it was over hyped

BTW its on channel5 in the uk on wednesday 9pm ;)

woodz

I wasn't yelling, or bitching.. If I seemed like it that's not what I meant..

Yes, it's a fun movie.. And everyone runs it when the nitpick at every little detail..

I was just trying to say not to over-analyze everything in Reloaded, everything might just change w/ Revolutions.. There..

Now was I yelling?

i think everyone expects to much, FFS it wasn't long ago everything was animated frame by frame, people where bashing away on 486's  and £300+ a month phone bills (bin there done that!).
T2 and lawnmower man where state of the art, and everyone went WOW! watch T2 now and you can tear every inch of that film apart, i can think of a dozen things without watching it (4 stroke bike with a 2 stroke sound track....big lump of plastic on arnie's face, 1/4 of a  ton harley that DIDN'T make a big hole in the floor when it landed.....on 'n' on)
we should watch to enjoy not to analyse

SPOILER WARNING.  No need to hide text; if you don't read the post, there's no way you'll accidently catch spoilers.


I can't speak for anyone else, but the reasons I find The Matrix (and Reloaded much more so) dumb are in general not because of technical flaws.  To me, The Matrix had fairly impressive visual effects, but the story was so cliche and in my opinion fundamentally weak that I simply couldn't just enjoy the film as a "kickass action movie."  The dialogue was unbearable, the acting varied between satisfactory and god-awful, and I don't care to watch the film enough times to even be able to identify errors such as the ones you mention in Terminator 2.
That's the first Matrix film.  As far as Reloaded goes, I can't criticise it much on the basic pillars of the world--those were set up in the first film.  However, I thought that The Matrix Reloaded had almost no direct continuity following The Matrix.  It is not necessary that sequels have this, but if they don't, it IS necessary that they somehow explain what happened in the chronological interim between the movies.  I don't mind inferring a few things, but it seemed like, for one thing among many, Neo's entire mission and personality changed.  I don't know if things like that were explained in the animated episodes (which I have not seen and should not be expected to), but if they were that was a bad idea--an audience should be presented with everything they are required to know without having to refer to secondary sources.
Beyond this, I found the movie boring.  At least it was possible to experience just the excitement of the first film, even if other areas were lacking.  In Reloaded, every single action sequence seemed completely bland and scripted.  The scene involving the many Smiths was without a doubt one of the absolute dumbest scenes in any movie I've ever seen, in large part due to the fact that it tried to be so impressive and in my opinion utterly failed.  I also found the car chase scene stupid--that was not a good car chase.  It was merely a lot of explosions and a bit of still-cheesy fighting.  I guess some people are happy with just a bunch of explosions.  I don't know.  Speaking of explosions, they looked utterly fake.  This type of thing isn't particularly crucial, but maybe if they didn't attempt to make every exploding Civic look like a nuclear holocaust they could have managed to keep them a little less corny-looking.  I thought the whole scene was incredibly uninspired.  For great car chases, see Ronin or Bullitt--those films have much more dynamic chases; they're not just races down a straight freeway with cars blowing up left and right.
Furthermore (and I know there probably aren't many people left reading this by now), what the hell was going on when they were editing that three-scenes-at-once deal?  That was the most pointlessly convoluted bit of film I've ever seen, because it was totally unnecessary.  From what I can tell, they were actually jumping around in time, because Neo was shown in different places doing different things at the same time.
There are a million more things I could mention but won't bother to at this time.  Feel free to have your own opinions about the films, obviously, but please don't criticise me for thinking the series is stupid.  I take enough shit in real life from hardcore Matrix fans that I'm fairly immune to it.  Anyway, I'm just one guy, and everyone else in the world is going to see that film multiple times probably, so I'm sure Warner Brothers will have the last laugh.

The reason it doesn't all make sense is that it's not finished with yet. The movies don't seem continuous because in order to get all the information you need to experience every bit of Matrix story created. The prequel shown before 'Dreamcatcher' helps. The Matrix game fills in a lot of the plot holes in Reloaded (I think that's excessively cheap, making people buy the game to make sense of the movie... bastards...). The Animatrix fills in background details, like how the Matrix started and how it works etc.

So if you want continuity send all your money to the Wachowski bros. by buying Animatrix, Enter the Matrix, seeing Dreamcatcher, all three Matrix movies, reading the comics, reading the web comics and stories and then it will all fit together.

A good idea, but I don't have that much money to waste. I want to understand from the movies.

- Punch

Yeah, I agree with Punch.  I think it's ludicrous that they would expect people to watch extra episodes or buy a game or go to a different movie to see some sort of prequel just to understand what the hell happened before Reloaded.  I hadn't even HEARD of the "animatrix" until a few days ago, and I know nothing about the game.

As far as the promise of the third film tying up loose ends--I think it should be pretty possible to make a sequel (even one with another sequel in mind) that stands alone.  It's been done many times.  And I know the ending of Reloaded was supposed to be a "cliffhanger" but I thought it was really cheesy, especially with that the soundtrack did right there.

Quote me if I am wrong but isn't Animatrix the original that started the Matix?

Quote from: Evil_away on Sat 17/05/2003 04:48:47
Quote me if I am wrong but isn't Animatrix the original that started the Matix?

I think all you Matrix defenderers are forgetting that Andy and whathisface did not write all three movies before shooting the first.  They are essentially writing as they go along, give or take a few reserved "revelations".  The first movie was a masterpiece, I myself was moved and whether or not the concepts were original- the movie introduced me to them.  The second movie was a horrible attempt at franchising- just giving kids what they want to see. There's no problem with that, but there should be a point made that the movies are evolving into flashier hollywood nonsense.  Don't give me the excuse to just wait for the third movie before criticising- say one day a fourth is written- what then?  Does the credibility of this series keep getting pushed back further?  I think it would be hilarious if at the very end of the third movie- Neo is simply a kid daydreaming in an amusement park.

But LGM, please quit bunching "The Matrix" and "Reloaded" as if they are the same entity.  Franchising a movie creates two separate entities.  The movie the "Matrix" stood alone on its own. But now, part of it has rubbed off IMO.   I'm sure there are other Matrix fans who were not impressed as well.

Remixor-Can you give an example of bad acting in the film?

No wait, scratch that, can you give an example of acting in the film?

I saw it last night, and I have to admit that I thought it was quite good. Yeah, the sex/rave scene and the exploding vagina were unneccessary, but the rest of the movie I thought was pretty good.  I thought the CG was well done (don't hurt me!), I thought the lots of Smiths fight scene was cool, and I had a good time.

I ESPECIALLY had a good time coming out of the theatre where there was a line of people waiting to get in.  My sister and I were yelling 'spoilers' at eachother.

"What? Agent Smith is Neo's father? What?"

"Wait... I'm confused.  So Neo and Trinity are really brother and sister?"

"I loved that bit where Morpheus died and became more powerful than we could ever imagine."

Messing with people's minds is fun!

Actually, if you watch Matrix Revisted.. The whole series was planned from the get-go.. This wasn't some "oo, we made money, let's make a sequel!"

It may have turned into a franchise now, which is sad... But the fact that everyone thinks it was made just because the first made money is even sadder. The Matrix and Reloaded are not directly connected, because all the animatrix stuff happens in-between.. Which explains the annoying kid and other stuff that might not make sense. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's all planned out, and I trust the brothers with what they're doing with this.

I agree that it IS a bit stupid to force everyone to buy the Animatrix and the Video game just to make sense of it all.. But I give them credit for it as a nice gimmick of cross-media story telling. It's original, gotta give em' that.

Meh, only true Matrix fans will watch/play it all.. The rest will just bitch about how "shitty" the Matrix has become. So now you know when to tell.

I respect everyone's opinion, each to his own. Not trying to insult anyone or sound like an ass. But.. well, yeah.. I'm done talking now.

"only true Matrix fans will watch/play it all.. The rest will just bitch about how "shitty" the Matrix has become"

Allow me to quote myself, as riduculous it may sound:

Quote from: EvenWolf on Sat 17/05/2003 08:31:55

LGM, please quit bunching "The Matrix" and "Reloaded" as if they are the same entity.    The movie the "Matrix" stood alone on its own.

It seems to me I am clearly stating I am a fan of "The Matrix" and not of the series.  Am I somehow hiddenly claiming to be a bigger fan of the series than you?  No. I'm saying the first film is all that will be remembered years from now- as revolutionary perhaps.  

If you say you watched the first and second films back to back, can you deny a change in style did not take place? That the first one was so much darker than the second, and that its amazing visual effects were done for the most part in real time?  Surely you took note that the second cheated in places the first did not.  Take character development for one.   Sure, we already know the main characters- but who the hell are these new people? the keymaker? He has perhaps four lines and half the movie is about rescuing him so he can help some people he's never even seen before get through one damn door in the big building downtown.  All this symbolic shit is nothing new,  and it wasn't in the first movie- but in the first it was made special by the framing device they used.  And the subtle mix of fighting, techno, and dialogue.  "Reloaded" was overkill, and that effected other aspects of the movie.   Neo as superman was stupid, at no point did I ever fear that he would get harmed, so the fights were meaningless.  Just admit that much, that this movie was different in a bad way.  

this is slightly off topic, but Id like to say that the animatrix is quite good, "the second renaissance" almost makes me ashamed to call myself human.

I guess my point in saying that was that while the movies have jumped the shark, at least the spin-offs still have true matrix elements.


The movie really wasted time.

--SPOILER--

this is how it went

Fight scene - dancing - fight scene - little plot revealed - Agent smith fight - French guy - exploding vagina - kiss thing - little more plot (if you can call getting the keymaker plot) - fight scene - highway scene with dreadlock guys- Morpheus vs. Smith - the mission (plot) - explosions and general action scene - smith in hallway fight- Colonel Sanders pops up claiming he's 'the architect' PLOT!! (some shite about neo's decision) - Neo saves trinity - "twist" ending.

--More spoilers--

There were 6 fight scenes. 2 general action and explosion scenes. 4 general waste scenes (counting the french guy, he didn't DO anything). and two scenes which actually progressed the movie. the rest was all setting the stage for matrix 3.

6 fight scenes!! and they went for soo long too... I mean sure, matrix 1 had fight scenes, but those fights had purpose, for instance, the morpheus vs. neo fight in m1 was about neo training his mind to conquer the matrix. The fight in m2 before the oracle talk was simply senseless violence. Why the hell did they fight? And that lame semi-philosophical excuse afterwards was simply weak; and then the agent Smith fight... why the hell didn't neo just fly away when he saw the extra copies? There was no need to go around flinging smith's everywhere.

And what the hell was that kiss thing with the french guy's woman? These questions were provided with answers, but those answers were so lame that I can safely say that the matrix reloaded severely jumped the shark. I can only hope that the writers of this movie get their acts together for no.3

Man... I love the way your spoiler glosses vaguely over the movie and then the rest of the post goes about explaining things in detail ;) And that colonel Sanders bit was hellarious. That's exactly who he was!

Back to Even's thing, I noticed a huge shift in style as well. The first movie was very much into exploring the ideas of the Matrix through the special effects, and the sequal was pretty much 'Hey, look what I can do!'

I still liked it. It was enough random action to keep me interested and there were some cool ideas. i think that's what I like most about the whole Matrix thing, they have a lot of cool ideas which they don't always express perfectly or succinctly, but are still good none the less.

The fight scenes were a little dissapointing because I watch martial arts movies a lot (Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Chow Yun Fat, so on and so forth) and the Matrix scenes seemed a little weak in comparison. You can tell that the actors weren't as skilled. And then they break into 'fancy' special effects to cover it.

--SPOILER--

What the hell was the architect saying? I understood most of it, but exactly why to they need to keep destroying Zion and The One and then building both of them again? How does having a group of rebels that no-one in the Matrix knows about keep everyone believing in the programmed reality?

And what about the ending? Do you reckon there might be levels to The Matrix? All Thirteenth-floor like?

I understand that people think some over analyse the films, but if they put 'philosophical' content in there then they have it coming. And it still interests me.

--End Spoiler--

- Punch

So, I gather no one is going to see Whale Rider or Charlotte Sometimes or Blue Car?

Punch: heh, whoopsidaisy... I'll fix the post accordingly. Anyway, I can't take the glory for the colonal sanders joke, the author of dragon-tails (http://www.dragon-tails.com) came up with it in one of his rants. It was too funny NOT to steal

Now I have seen Matrix Reloaded, and I can definitely say, that both parts were good, but 1st one was better...

All of us in the theatre made the joke that the guy looked like Col. Sanders on wednesday.   However, I would guess the Architect is supposed to look more like Sigmund Freud (http://images.google.com/images?q=Sigmund+Freud&svnum=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&start=0&sa=N) than anyone.  And yes, Freud looks a bit like the Colonel.

Punch- I'm not going to whine about the scene where "everything" is explained because folks will just tell me to wait for the sequel and spend another $8. (Not to mention they pathetically put the disclaimer in his dialogue that "some of this may not make sense to your puny mind").  But all I figure is that it was impossible to make everyone accept the Matrix- so in order to have some sort of unity- those who reject it have to be given a choice.. like that Sypher guy who went back in, and Neo who took the pill to escape.  I'm betting later on we see that by beating up agents and pulling people out, Morpheus and the others are actually furthering the Matrix along and not hurting it at all.

But the explanation was way lame and I'd like to see them clear it up in the threequel.  However I'm fairly sure the most thought provoking revelations have already taken place.

I saw it a couple of days ago. It met my expectations. Which was, it would be a fun action movie where my brain wouldn't be forced to think. It killed a couple of hours. There were a few flaws, neo's CG fight scenes did look just that, and it was annoying. There are tons more I could easily point out, but I expected as much. The first movie, as it stands alone, was very fun. The second one was fun, too.

If I had annalyzed the movie there was no way I could have enjoyed it. My brain hadalready shut down as the trailors came on, and didn't come back on until I had left the theater.

-MillsJROSS

But see, now is the time to analyze it- not while you watch it. Like that guy teaches how to speed read books. Don't think when you experience, just think back and in retrospect- what did you get out of it?  For me I remember little but punch-punch, one liner, one liner.   I do admire that they had less gun fights this time around and focused more on hand to hand.  There was almost a "use your mind, not your sidearm" message in this flick, but why would a super man use a gun anyhow?

how come l33t haxxors in CS can headshot me through 3 boxes while they are blind and using an MP5 but the agents couldn't hit the broadside of a barn door?

someone needs to get those agents an aim bot

STFU fag newb,
eric OMFG

especially since most of the gun fights were against ordinary people who thought they were just being responsible security guards.

if the matrices have taught me anything, it's to feel sorry for security guards. i mean, how would YOU like to go to work every day thinking you were doing the right thing only to be slaughtered by the time-bending kung fu good guys? every day! guh!

oh, and i think from now on unexplainable atrocities in filmmaking should be reffered to as "exploding vagina." ex. "The plight of security guards in the matrix films is an exploding vagina."

HARHARHARHARHARHARHAR BOOM! (falls off chair)

Forget exploding vaginas, have a look what I found on IMDB:

'Matrix' Director's Dominatrix Lover?

Publicity-shy The Matrix Reloaded director Larry Wachowski left his wife of 15 years following an affair with a dominatrix. Larry, 37, appeared at the Cannes Festival premiere of Matrix Reloaded with 36-year-old blonde Karin Winslow last week. Wachowski - who writes and directs the hit movies with brother Andy Wachowski - is reported to have left his wife Thea after hiring Winslow's services, leaving her transsexual husband fuming. Jake Miller, estranged husband of Winslow, is now alleging in British newspaper The Mail On Sunday that Larry is a cross-dresser who ran off with his wife. He says, "He stole my wife from me and he crossed over the boundaries. I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I am telling the truth. Larry Wachowski is living a lie. He has been cross-dressing for years and everybody knows it. But in Hollywood, money talks. And if you are the director of a hit like The Matrix, you can get away with anything. I hope Larry is man enough to hear what I am saying and to come out and admit who - or what - he is. I want people to know the truth. When Larry walked down the red carpet with my wife, he was probably wearing a bra and panties under his suit."


I'm not one to spread malicious gossip, but...

HARHARHARHARHARHARHARHARHAR!!!!

Oh, I don't know.  I should think that terms like "exploding vagina" would become even more relevant in light of such news...


How bizarre, btw.   ;D

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/19/1053196525466.html

THAT's what I'm talking about, Las.  The so called "allegory" of the Matrix is some of the most blatantly contrived rubbish I've seen on film.  It's almost comical.

I agree with that.

If you really want to go for spiritual understanding, watch Scorsese films instead.

His Last Temptation of Christ was a brilliant alternative story of Christ with very deep symbolic references -- It was also based on the book by Nikos Kazantzakis and both were banned by the Church (because one scene showed a hallucination of Christ where he dreamed of making love to Mary Magdelene)

It's the only Jesus movie I'd recommend.

Also, Scorsese did Kundan -- a movie about the life of the 14th Dalai Lama's and his exile to India.

Scorsese once said he was either going to be a priest or a filmmaker.

Other very spiritual movies:

Sling Blade -- Despite what you may think about him, Billy Bob Thornton crafted and extraordinary tale of redemption in this movie.

Brainstorm -- A company develops a device for recording the five senses. One of the scientists (Lousie Fletcher) dies but records what happens after death. Her work partner recovers the film to find out what happens.

Ghandi -- Saw this again recently. Not only a good political movie, but wonderfully critical look of all religions.

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest -- R.P McMurphy beats Neo anytime as a Christ-like figure.

The Exorcist -- Many religious allusions: the nature of evil, the impact of religion upon women, etc, etc.

The Last Details -- Everyone knows this is my favourite movie and it contains some great spiritual meanings -- Go rent it out and see for yourself.

On The Waterfront -- Loaded with spiritual meaning.

Captains Corageous -- Likewise.

There are plenty more, but these spring to mind.

Although I liked the Matrix a lot, I think these films have far greater spiritual meaning to them.

I would pick any of them over the Matrix as far as spiritual references go.

Don't forget the classic "Ernest Finds His Soul"

The religious allusions in NGE are also done purposefully and meaningfully.

Scorsese is a fantastic filmmaker.  There are still a couple of his films of his I've not seen, but almost every one I've seen has been pretty incredible.  

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is also awesome (as is the novel).  McMurphy rules.

I've not seen the other films you list, but it seems like you have pretty good taste in movies so I'm sure I'll check some of them out.

holy shit brainstorm!

i've seen the ending to that movie tons of times and never known what it was called....

thank you mr mcphee

Narangas, aye, I agree.

I was thinking the exact same thing when I wrote my list, and quite ironic as I finished watching the entire series and movies today -- Funny, but I'm not too sure why I didn't add it to my list.

But after reading up on a lot of the religious meaning in the story, it's interesting to see the parallels between NGE and various religious and scientific texts -- especially to see the story combine the idea evolution and religion, which are normally two opposite extremes.

However, the suprising thing I also found out is director/writer Hideaki Anno never purposely alluded to anything with most of the Christian symbolism and reference -- Anno and the crew said they just added a lot of that stuff because it looked and sounded cool.

So much for authorial intent, eh -- sometimes people just accidently create meaning.

Eric: I remember my Dad showed me that movie a long time ago -- and I never forgot it.

My proverbial 2 money units:

I saw the Matrix: Reloaded on the 15th and enjoyed the experience.  I may mention something from the movie that might spoil it for others.  If that's the case, then wtf is that particular dumbass doing reading this thread?

I found the Matrices, particularly The Matrix, to be a welcome introduction of the masses to the sci-fi/cyberpunk world.  There have been very few movies of this type and not many have been any good.  Shall I name a few examples?  Hackers, Bladerunner (which some may argue about but was unnecessarily obscure and was much less interesting than the novel, "Do androids dream of electric sheep?"), Lawnmower Man (which vaguely comes into this category and was loosely based upon a Stephen King short story that has absolutely nothing to do with anything digital).

The Matrix had a nice, "What if?" factor coupled with some excellent camera work and some nice HR Gigerish imagery.  

On to Reloaded:  It leapt right back to the ending of the original, and relied heavily upon action.  Do fight scenes really need to take up 3/4 of the movie in order to keep our attention?  The scene where he's beating up the Mr. Smiths is unnecessarily long.  I know it's meant to be an epic battle and show the force he's up against in that department but it actually gains tedium rather quickly.  I didn't care too much about the car chase but enjoyed the in-the-car fight scene for its intricacy.  I, personally, would've preferred a bit more dialogue in the movie although it has actually been criticized for having too much.  I'm totally with Eric on one thing: WTF was with that rave scene?  The techo was sub-par and watching a bunch of neo-tribalists jumping around is hardly my idea of entertainment.  The love-scene was particularly sterile as Keanu gives it at much depth and feeling as he does most of his characters (will he ever get any better than Bill & Ted?).  The "Exploding Vagina" scene was unnecessary.  Not that I found it offensive, merely excessively stupid.  My wife refers to the scene as the Orgasm Cake scene while I refer to it as the Unhealthy Devil's Food that promotes bladder infection and a severe need to urinate.  That said, I found Reloaded to be an entertaining diversion in the form of some nicely-implemented action taking place in a fairly familiar sci-fi world.  

There are some, my sister among them, that consider a movie to be a waste of time unless it provides some insight into the human psyche or provides them with some bit of knowledge so they can walk away from it feeling that the time has been well spent.  I, for one, think a movie is a means of escape, relaxation and entertainment.  I enjoy comedys, dramas, action flicks, indie flicks, "B" movies and others.  If you want something in-depth or meant to be a learning experience, take a college course.  Read a book.  Do some internet research on a topic that interests you.  But don't go see some audio/visual entertainment that will last anywhere from 80 to 160 minutes and is meant to appeal to the majority of the population.    

Well... guess what I saw last night :D

It was brilliant, fight scenes galore, which were all done superbly. An interesting plot line, and a great film throughout.

Has anyone else seen it yet? It was amazing, words cant really describe it, you have to see it for yourself.

SPOILER
\/   \/   \/

Spoiler

My Favourite part was the fight with all the Agent Smith's, that was brilliant, how Neo could still manage to defeat them (sorta).

I also thought the idea of the keymaker was good, and that at the end Neo had the coice of ending the war or saving Trinity, we all knew what he would choose, and I am looking forward to the third film sooooo much now.

[close]

Look below, EvenWolf started a thread on this a week ago (titled "The Matrices"). Plenty of discussion in there.

As for myself, I haven't seen it yet... if it ends up being on TV at some point when I have access to one, I'll probably watch it, but I don't care enough to pay for it or bother getting it off the net.

I´m a little bit tyred of people starting topics about the same film. Matrix is just an excuse for showing unnecesary effects. The effects must be at the service of the storyline and not on the contrary. I think I´m going to became an anti-Matrix soon.

Hey, take note Magintz hasn't been around for a bit. Give em some slack.  Altho I disagree with almost every point he has about the movie :P, he has a right to post his opinions.  And maybe I should have made my subject line a little more obvious..

Perhaps you should let go and just enjoy the special effects (they're worth enjoying).

/me joins Farlander's anti-matrix cult, erm, group...
The matrix is a very stupid concept. People say "It has a point, things may not be what the seem." Then make a giant 2 hour fight scene and then at the end show a sign that says, everything may not be what it seems. The matrix does the same thing with a hard to follow plot which is dumb in the first place...

how is it to hard to follow? maybe you have something of an IQ challenge? :)

Hey! No probs with Maginz, I welcome him back to the forums, even talking of Matrix  ;D

I also agree with Archangel in the aspect that films are just for enjoying them. Films that make me think are good sometimes, but I think that the final purpose is to entertain. After this, let me say that sometimes, with some films, the special effects can be very bothering! Let me give an example...

I saw just ten minutes of the John Woo´s film "Mission: impossible 2". I just couldn´t stand what I saw. I couldn´t also see "Charlie´s Angel" and the last James Bond´s film. The action scenes are not amazing... they´re just unbelieverable and they became stupid (in my oppion...)

Let me give a good example of good special effects use... Jurassic Park. If you sum all the dinosaurs appearances the final result is... 5 minutes!!! All the thrilling atmosphere is created just by the director´s work and the imagination of the espectator.

Imagine "Saving private Ryan"... the first 45 minutes are a complete deploy of digital effects... but nobody notices it because it´s "realistic"... the digital effects are subordinated to the story...

But there is a new wave of digital films were the strory is subordinated to the effects. I am not sure if "Matrix reloaded" is going to be one of these, but I think it will. When I see it i´ll give my oppinion, untill then, Evil, keep my chair of the anti-matrix cult warm.  ;D

I've just seen it, and here's my lil nifty review:

Let's start with the high point of my evening, which of course is the action sequences. They were spec-fucking-whoa-tecular. And that car chase, holy shit! Quite possibly the best action scene ever.

With that out of the way, we can proceed to the low points. First of all, the movie was stretched over the 2.5 hours like "butter scraped over too much bread". And unfortunately, a lot of it was bullshit, and by the heaps of it. Hard rocking cavemen? No, thank you.
The thing I was most pissed off about though was the Architect's speech (which unfortunately was far from the only place that thing happened). The writers just clearly patronized the viewer there. "Let's put a load of crap there, and when the viewer won't understand a thing, he'll think it was all very wise and smart. Yeah!" Well, that speech was a full of shit.
Another thing is that the movie does indeed proceed more like a computer game than a movie.

And the last point, which is not really a low point, but is surely not good either. The second Matrix has the same problem the second LotR had: it lacked the impression of the first one. When I saw the first one, I was pretty much glued to the seat, having a god damn visual orgasm, and thinking "WOW! Now this is something I have not seen before! This is a true cinematic experience!" The second one didn't have that, as I, of course, already saw the first.

Conclusion: They should have cut the bullshit in (at least) half.

yeah, but the last bond movie had halle berry

Yeah, Halle Berry can be saved of the bonfire  ;D  ;D  ;D

and for anyone who cares

there's a matrix massively multiplayer game coming out soon and it takes place after the 3rd movie...

and guess what... the matrix is still around and there's still evil to combat...

how curious

Quote from: custard on Thu 22/05/2003 21:45:02
how is it to hard to follow? maybe you have something of an IQ challenge? :)

I was talking about having to buy the animatrix to better "understand" the movie...

Hmm... I just had a thought.
Scenario: A lot of young teenage kids LOVE the Matrix films.
I wonder if in 20 years, they'll still love the Matrix films, but they'll all be more cynical. And then the creators will decide to make a trilogy of prequels. And the Matrix fans will hate the prequels, even though they're more or less up to the standards of the original trilogy. Wouldn't that be funny?

I've rewatched the first Matrix recently.. And I realised why I like it so much, and I also realised where everyone else is coming from that doesn't like it so much..

The Matrix is just for certain people, not for everyone... For people that like to pick apart every little detail in a film just for the sake of being cynical bastards, and the people that don't want to put any effort into trying to understand something in a film,  don't like these films..

People that watch films because they liked to be entertained and people that like to watch something different than Hollywood cookie-cutter garbage (Which Reloaded does touch base on a few times.... What with all the useless CG ((I blame that on stupid copy-cats of Bullet Time)) And they also could've done without the damn franchising with Powerade and shit.. But I'm guessing Warner's lawyers made them do it.) Nontheless, I like the Matrix films, and I always will..

Some people will hate/dislike the movies, and always will.. This is how the world works my friends...

The Matrix doesn't seem to be much of a casual, sit-down and relax movie. You have to get into it. You have to pay close attention.
That's why some people love the movies, while others, more casual movie watchers, hate them. Either way, you gotta love those special effects.

I forgot we hada merge button on the forum, so I'll merge the two topics together thread.

However, this has happened twice so far, so I'm going to clearly label the other thread.

In future, please post all matrix stuff here.

Quote from: Bob the Hun on Fri 23/05/2003 03:44:58
The Matrix doesn't seem to be much of a casual, sit-down and relax movie. You have to get into it. You have to pay close attention.
That's why some people love the movies, while others, more casual movie watchers, hate them. Either way, you gotta love those special effects.

I disagree with just about every thing you said in that post.  I am most definitely not a casual movie watcher, and I thought the movie was quite stupid.  The more I pay attention to it and think about it, the stupider I think it is.  The best way to enjoy that movie is not to read too deeply into it and to just enjoy the action.  However, I didn't love those special effects.  Some of them were quite impressive, but a lot of them were really cheesy, and I found most of the action scenes boring.
I'm not going to go into too much detail about why I didn't like this movie, since we've had another extensive thread about it, but suffice to say I'm not thrilled I spent 9 bucks on it.

Quote from: LilGryphMaster on Fri 23/05/2003 03:30:51
The Matrix is just for certain people, not for everyone... For people that like to pick apart every little detail in a film just for the sake of being cynical bastards, and the people that don't want to put any effort into trying to understand something in a film,  don't like these films..

BAH! trying to ignore the foolishness i suggest you stop being so sensitive about a movie you like. people like movies people hate movies, you come to this realization at the end of this post, no need to generalize

tell me how i am cynical cause i'm asking questions about a movie?

QuotePeople that watch films because they liked to be entertained and people that like to watch something different than Hollywood cookie-cutter garbage

ok, this is also silly. matrix and matrix 2 are not Russian Ark or George Washington or Storytelling or Kandahar [ugh] or anything like that. you tell me how matrix1 and 2 are so different from XXX or James Bond and i will personally fellate you for an hour and a half.

Quote((I blame that on stupid copy-cats of Bullet Time))

also, there was "bullet time" years before matrix, it was even in a music video and done with polaroids

QuoteAnd they also could've done without the damn franchising with Powerade and shit.. But I'm guessing Warner's lawyers made them do it.) Nontheless, I like the Matrix films, and I always will..

who was forcing anyone to liscence? i haven't seen the wachowski brothers [who don't even own the matrix anymore] crying foul of it anywhere. if they could have liscenced matrix 1 they would have. every holywood movie is filled with ads ads ads and as many independent movie is filled with as many ads as they can get their hands on cause it pays for the movie's cost.

QuoteSome people will hate/dislike the movies, and always will.. This is how the world works my friends...

and there we go, some people hate movies, some people love movies and some people like a movie but have problems with it. nothing wrong with that. it's people who are extremes on both ends that are the problems, at least for me.

bah whatever

The Matrix is cookie cutter rubbish, with stock ontological paradoxes and the feeling of depth without substance.

hey! It's just like Novo!

Las feels strongly about something? Weird

Las doesn't FEEL strongly about it, he posted strongly about it.  Haven't you learned?

Anyway, I hafta agree with one thing.  To say that the Matrix II isn't Hollywood cookie-cutter garbage is a tad contradictory.  One of the film industry's favorite money-making techniques is to capitalize on the popularity of a film by making a sequel.  

If you can't enjoy an action-fest, don't watch 'em.  If you were looking for hardcore sci-fi filmography, then you're deluded.  It's a movie.  It was released in theatres.  If you prefer indie flicks, hit some rental stores and avoid theatres like the plague.  I can enjoy a thinking movie as much as the next guy, but I can also loosen up once in awhile.  I thought Pi was a decent movie and it was the first one I've watched in awhile that actually kick-started my brain a bit.  However, it was artsy for the sake of artsy-ness and seemed to be filmed in grainy black-and-white for the sheer sake of seeming more amateurish.  This is basically the same deal as the over-hollywooding of mainstream movies, just in a different direction.

LylGraphMaster... I was shocked when reading that you´re part of a special superior race (maybe Aria Race?) that can enjoy the Matrix, and I was also shocked when I read that the ones who (like me) don´t like the movie are bastards...

That was quite isulting for me, but...

Then I saw your profile and I saw that you´re just a 15 years old guy.

I suppose I can´t blame you if you like the Pokemon and all that stuff... but please... don´t tell us we´re bastards or we will send you to the nursery with Mitar, ok?

Quote from: YakSpit on Fri 23/05/2003 10:23:19If you can't enjoy an action-fest, don't watch 'em.  If you were looking for hardcore sci-fi filmography, then you're deluded.  It's a movie.  It was released in theatres.  ... However, it was artsy for the sake of artsy-ness and seemed to be filmed in grainy black-and-white for the sheer sake of seeming more amateurish.  This is basically the same deal as the over-hollywooding of mainstream movies, just in a different direction.

I somewhat agree with your statements, although I wouldn't say that there aren't deep or meaningful movies in wide release (if this isn't what you were implying, never mind.).  They're just rare relative to all the crap that gets released.
 About Pi, the director (Darren Aronofsky) spoke at my university a few weeks ago and admitted that the main reason it was filmed in black and white was not for any sort of indie-cred or anything, but because the crazy computer consoles and so forth looked much cheesier in color.  The high-contrast black and white made them look a bit less like the low-budget props they were ;)  Plus, he just liked that high-contrast look for that film.  I think it worked overall, and I definitely got some thought out of the film, but I totally see where you're coming from with the overly artsyness.  This is just as much a problem in many real indie films too, though.

More on the Wachowski-Bondage Lover situation from IMDB...

Wachowski Courts Trouble

A Los Angeles judge has frozen the assets of Matrix Reloaded co-director Larry Wachowski. After reports Wachowski left his wife Thea Bloom for professional dominatrix, Ilsa Stix, his wife has gone to court in an effort to stop Wachowski giving away money. In a court filing Bloom claims, "Larry was been extremely dishonest with me in our personal life, and I believe he is hiding information from me regarding our financial affairs." Though she does not mention the dominatrix, Bloom does say, "Our decision to separate was a mutual one, made in July 2002, based on very intimate circumstances, concerning which I do not elaborate at this time for reasons of his personal privacy." Larry's lawyer declined comment.

No wonder most of the characters in the film wear leather and latex.

I'm just stating what I observe..

I'm not being sensitive, I'm just tired of everyone trying to convince people that actually enjoy the move that it sucks.. That's all.

It's the same thing as someone totally dissing some art piece you put your heart and soul into.

Bah, I give up with you bunch.

Its all a matter of taste. I like Acion, war, and mystery (thriller) films, but someone else probably hates them.

MWAHAHAH! i AM the matrix!!    :o

I think that most people (both viewers and creators) are taking the Matrix out of proportions. The Matrix is an entertaining piece of Hollywood action, not a clever sci-fi movie or a philosopchical apocalypse epus. That's the way it should be expected, and only like that it can be liked.

[left blank]

edit: Ya know why? Because I had a second thought about every opinion I put in here. In short, I disliked the matrix, I've disliked just about all movies I've ever seen except "misses doubtfire". So ner.  ;D

have a nice day :)

Lil, that doesn't seem to me what you've been doing.

Things said by the one you claim to be would be like:
"Well you guys may not like it, but I'm still convinced it's one of the greatest movies of recent.  However I respect your all's opinion."


See, now- if you had consistently stood up with your points using language such as that, those opinions would remain very well respected.  What you have said are things like this:

"You all are just too lazy..." "You guy are just too cynical..."  "You guys are just pissy"   etc etc -  "in order to appreciate this awesome movie."

Stating things in this way gradually loses one's credibility, you see. For now the argument is no longer whether "Reloaded" is a good movie but rather "is EvenWolf being lazy, cynical and/or pissy?"  Of course I'm not, this movie will make a billion damn dollars whether I like it or not.  I am in the minority of Matrix goers, I actually say "It could have been better if it focused on these aspects instead".  You , LGM, are in the majority of filmgoers who can call a movie "the best of its time" based on CG explosions, implosions, fight scenes, and psuedo meaningful bullcrap.

So don't act like the art piece is getting more flak than praise- as you and a million other people are exagerrating just how good this heap of junk is. ;)

There are innumerable stupid movies I don't bother spending time criticising.  This is because most of those movies don't gross God knows how many millions of dollars , garner books written about their philosophy, utterly dominate most screens at the cinemas, and cause the hardcore ravings of legions of fans willing to savagely defend the most inane of plot devices and stupid effects.  Your average run of the mill stupid movie (including the ones stupider than the Matrix) just come out, maybe make some decent money the first few weeks, and eventually fade away.  It's just that when I see something like this permeate all aspects of culture, I feel compelled to explain why I don't buy into it.  And thing is, it doesn't even matter.  I could launch my own private Matrix crusade and send out thousands of promotional pamphlets, and the Wachowskis could just laugh and wipe their asses with them.  So for those people who love the Matrix, there's no need to pay any heed (hooray for rhyming) to my ramblings.  Your side will win in the end and I'll just be a bitter cynical bastard.  I've come to terms.  The movie still sucks though.

The movie still sucks though.
I haven't even seen the Matrix films, but I know that this can't be true. Wether you like it or not, a film sucks if the general populace thinks it sucks, which obviously isn't the case with The Matrix. And I'm sure if you watched the films and judged them based on their own merit and not in a way that's completely influenced by outside information (the nonstop public raving) you wouldn't say it sucks.
While I don't have much personal interest in the movies, I wouldn't lower my opinion of a movie just because other people love it TOO much. When all is said and done, a film is just a couple hours of image and sound. It is not its fans.

also, the continue:

the matrix had some stupid car chases and some awkward explosions [cars don't explode that easily i don't care if it's an SUV or not] BUT

Jackie Chan makes a movie and beats up all of China with a ladder and 3 refridgerators and then climbs a wall without using his hands and no one cares because that is the universe his movies exist in.

the universe that the matrix exists in i liked better in the first one, the CG wasn't as horrible or numerous and the fight scenes had more of a purpose

there, that's what i wanted to say

that and seriously... why can't the agenst shoot a damned gun?! comeone one of them was 5 feet away from trinity traveling the same speed as her while she was completely exposed on a motorcycle and he missed every every time?

anyway, Matrix Pizza (http://somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1466) is pretty damned cute

eric

Quote from: Trapezoid on Sat 24/05/2003 02:52:52
The movie still sucks though.
I haven't even seen the Matrix films, but I know that this can't be true. Wether you like it or not, a film sucks if the general populace thinks it sucks, which obviously isn't the case with The Matrix.

No, I think that's ridiculous.  All personal judgments aside, I absolutely cannot concede that a movie sucks if public opinion deems it so, nor by implication the opposite.  I'm not sure if you think this just applies to movies, or if it applies to other opinions as well.  If you think it just applies to films, why are they treated that way?  And if you think it applies to other opinions at all, there's more than enough historical evidence to render such a statement meaningless.

Quote
And I'm sure if you watched the films and judged them based on their own merit and not in a way that's completely influenced by outside information (the nonstop public raving) you wouldn't say it sucks.

I can't speak for anyone else in this particular matter, but that's not true in my case at all.  I specifically stated in my above post that there are plenty of stupid movies I don't bother criticising in as much detail as I do the Matrix.  I even said many of them were WORSE than the Matrix.  However, I don't find a need to elaborate on those films; I explained already why I make a point to explain my problems with the Matrix.  It's not public opinion that causes me to dislike the film, it's public opinion that in a sense causes me to justify my dislike for it.  It may be worth noting that I saw the film before I heard anyone's opinion on it, so my opinion was formed before I knew whether the general populace found it a disappointment or not.  There was no doubt it would be a box-office success, but I see no reason why it reasonably could have disappointed people overall.  That didn't happen, but it didn't influence my personal opinions.

Quote
While I don't have much personal interest in the movies, I wouldn't lower my opinion of a movie just because other people love it TOO much. When all is said and done, a film is just a couple hours of image and sound. It is not its fans.

Well, according to you, its quality is determined by its fans.  You're right that it's just a bit of media though, in the long term.  That's true, but films can also be meaningful and engaging, and I hold them to that standard.  Is that fair?  I don't know, but I'm not a fan of the "could you do better?" philosophy.  It's not my job, so I don't really have to.  "Why are you seeing The Matrix if you want depth and meaning?" people ask.  Well, that part is my fault.  My friends wanted to go see it and I agreed, under the assumption that this is one of those inevitable movies that I WILL see eventually whether I want to or not, be it at someone's house or anywhere else.

Anyway, as tends to be typical of me, my post has gotten out of hand.  Don't take any of that personally, Trap; most of it got off-topic from your post anyway ;)

Just to clarify, my first point was that art is subjective, but the only way you could possibly guage something's quality would be a consensus from everyone who's ever viewed it. If you personally think The Matrix sucked, then that's minus one point for The Matrix.
My second point was to try and form your opinions solely from the artwork as it is. If you were to watch The Matrix in an alternate dimension where it had no hype whatsoever, you'd most likely rate it better than you think you would. I realize it's nigh impossible to view every film you see while completely forgetting what you've heard about it, or to not compare it to other films, but I'm certain that your opinion of a film is better off purely yours and purely of the film. If that makes any sense at all.

All that is true, but useless in pointing out except pursuing deconstructive post modernism.

Just take everything as subjective sure, but argue remixors arguments on their merits, just like we should judge a film by it's merits. If we were to complain that something was subjective, we may as well descend into solipsism.



I saw The Matrix before I knew of the hype that surrounded. my first reaction was laughter since on first impression I found the dialogue hilariously stilted and the CGI scenes quite gratuitous at times (The building rippling before it exploded had me in stitches).

That was followed by some disturbance the next day when I saw a documentary on the Columbine massacre.

Computer Nerds in trenchcoats shooting people didn't seem as funny anymore :)

Quote from: Trapezoid on Sat 24/05/2003 05:11:52
Just to clarify, my first point was that art is subjective, but the only way you could possibly guage something's quality would be a consensus from everyone who's ever viewed it. If you personally think The Matrix sucked, then that's minus one point for The Matrix.

I understand that's what you meant, but I still think it's a poor way of judging something's artistic merit.  It acts on the assumption that everybody in the world has the same understanding and appreciation of film (or theatre, or literature, or art), which is a patently ludicrous idea.  You can measure success or popularity that way, but not quality as you say.  Popularity is by no means equivalent to quality.

Quote
My second point was to try and form your opinions solely from the artwork as it is. If you were to watch The Matrix in an alternate dimension where it had no hype whatsoever, you'd most likely rate it better than you think you would. I realize it's nigh impossible to view every film you see while completely forgetting what you've heard about it, or to not compare it to other films, but I'm certain that your opinion of a film is better off purely yours and purely of the film. If that makes any sense at all.

Again, I understood your meaning the first time, and for the third time I will state that my opinions were mine, and were not influenced by other people.  I already explained the circumstances in my last post.  Your point indeed makes sense, but in this case it doesn't apply.  I guess there's no way to make you trust me on this, but I have a slightly better frame of reference where my own opinions are concerned, and I try to be pretty objective about any biases I may have.

In a court of law, there are some precepts that are such merely because "a reasonable person would agree/disagree."   I think the judging of movies is done on a similar level.  There are no set rules to gauge a movie by.  There isn't a benchmark that we can test it with.  You can't judge a movie solely by the amount of CG it uses or does not use.  You cannot state that a movie is horrible because it was too thought-provoking and had no entertainment value without accepting that this is your opinion.  

This is all we can do in the forums, each can state their opinion.  Others can agree or refute those opinions but with their agreement/disagreement must realize that it's their opinion as well.  I, personally thought the movie was worth the $6.75 I paid.  I took my wife to it and enjoyed her company as well.  I heard/saw no hype concerning this movie as I am only as exposed to the media as I wish to be (for the most part).  I knew the movie was coming out a few months ago.  I knew it was out the day before I saw it.  I, personally, prefer to see a movie without having seen a preview (in much the same manner that I prefer to read a book without reading the summary usually printing in the jacket or on the back).  The best I can do as far as this topic goes is to break the movie down into various categories and rate them separately.  

Acting: 3/5  -Nothing sensational but nothing that evoked a great deal of emotion, Morgan Fr eemanis showing his acting limitations in his old age and Keanu is nothing but acting limitations.  Nonetheless, it got the job done well enough and was nowhere near as bad as some movies I've seen.

Special Effects: 4/5 - Some gratuitous SFX and some that were incorrect or made the movie look worse.  I wouldn't mind seeing a "making-of" featurette.  I am biased in this category because I dabble with 3d and thus appreciate the time and knowledge that goes into it.

Plot: 3/5 - Not the best, not the worst but it did fit the Matrix style as well as can be expected.  Even if it was skimpy, I'll still take its plot over that of Master of Disguise, Final Encounter, Ballistics: Ecks vs. Sever, or a host of other movies that don't seem to bother with hiring a writer and just make it up as they go along.

Skill/Stunts: 4/5 If acting ability is determined by body language and the delivery of lines, this category is meant to address an actor's agility, endurance, physical prowess and grace.  Yes, CG was often used where unnecessary, but a good deal of those stunts took precise timing and sheer strength delivered by the actors.

Soundtrack: 4/5 This encompasses background ambience, music, sound effects, etc.  Though I'm not much of a techno fan, I found the music suited to the movie. The sound effects were well-done for the most part (I wish more movies would adopt the punching-noise philosophy of fight-club though).  The ambient noise generated by machinery, liquids and wind were all appropriate to the scenes.

So, I guess I'd rate the movie, on average, as slightly above mid-range.    God, I've gotten way too wordy and analytical with this one.

Edit: I originally said SL Jackson when I was thinking of Morgan Freeman, damn it all to hell, it was 4 AM

Quote from: YakSpit on Sat 24/05/2003 11:22:10
...S.L. Jackson is showing his acting limitations in his old age...

S.L. Jackson???????????????? He isn't in that movie!

Haha, give him a break- you know he meant Morgan Freeman afterall.  Samuel L isn't THAT old.

Quote from: remixor on Sat 24/05/2003 08:06:36
I understand that's what you meant, but I still think it's a poor way of judging something's artistic merit.  It acts on the assumption that everybody in the world has the same understanding and appreciation of film (or theatre, or literature, or art), which is a patently ludicrous idea.  You can measure success or popularity that way, but not quality as you say.  Popularity is by no means equivalent to quality.

No, measuring a film's popularity would involve finding out how many people saw it. If you subjected 10000 people to every film ever made and then had them rank them (hypothetically of course, this is impossible), you can't deny that the overall result would be much more accurate than if you only used one person.
IMDB.com has a top 250 movies list. It may not be completely accurate (the Star Wars films don't belong so high), but it's certainly a better representation than my own personal list (I really like The Princess Bride...) The Matrix is number 30-something on IMDB, so your dislike of it is obviously just yours. Nobody's going to direct films designed to please a single person that they've never met.

Edit: By the way, I don't really have a problem with you complaining about the movies. I just feel like complaining about critics. I mean, doesn't it annoy you when you're reading a bunch of reviews for a movie, and they're all very positive, and then you find one negative review that insists you avoid the movie at all costs.

In conclusion: (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/arge.gif)

Quote from: Trapezoid on Sat 24/05/2003 17:58:41

(the Star Wars films don't belong so high),

you kinda had to be there to realize how big star wars was at the time, it pushed sci fi movies out of the stone age,  in respect more people went to movies in those days and the ques where unreal, funny but i watched the first one today granted its the revamped version but it still looks good

i wander if in 25 years time will people remember the matrix?

woodz

Maybe we should turn this into a movies in general thread.  That seems to be the way it's going.  My kids and wife went to see Finding Nemo today.  I haven't actually seen the movie but it's a delightful underwater fantasy with some clever kid-humor with a joke or two made a little more subtle for adults' taste.  My one real problem with it.. I think CGI was a tad overused in this film, it looks so fake.   ;)

/me thinks .oO( Matrix: Reloaded ... pretty boring movie. )

m0ds

It's quite ironic that you say Star Wars "pulled Sci Fi films out of the stone age" since it never at anytime pretends that it's doing anything but adopting the most primitive of Sci Fi such as the Space Operas of the 1930's, and the Buck Rogers serials. After a period during which Science Fiction as cinema was considering itself to create philosophical thought (2001, Soylent Green, Planet of the Apes, Rollerball et al, all preceding Star Wars) Lucas returned it to the levels of Good and Baddies in space, in the mode of E. E Smith and Buck Rogers. At the time, before a quarter century of hype deluded his own mind, Lucas made no bones about the fact he was making a film for entertainments sake, based on what entertained him in his youth. Similarily he devised the basis for the purely entertaining Indy films based on the old Adventure Serials.

Star Wars actually pulled Sci Fi back into the stone age, and the realm of Fantasy by consciously using the plot structures which had been evident in storytelling since, well, perhaps even the literal stoneage.

It was thus made more accessable to the greater audience by taking the aesthetics of Sci Fi rather than the themes which naturally confined it to a smaller clique.

First off all, it wasn't Morgan Freeman or SL Jackson in The Matrix!!!

It was Sidney Poitier!!!

Secondly, Star Wars had it's merits and fallbacks.

It was fun film and it revitalised Hollywood's economy.

However, it destroyed quality filmmaking -- especially sci-fi as Las pointed out.

Once producers found that you could make millions from a goodies vs baddies blockbuster (or "comic book movie" to borrow a term from WIlliam Goldman), they all jumped a carriage on the money train.

Before that, you had butt-kicking sci-fi films.

Especially Lucas's earlier works like THX-1138.

What about other intelligent or socially important films like 2001: ASO, Planet of the Apes, A Clockwork Orange, The Andromeda Strain, or Invasion of the Body Snatchers?

In fact, go several decades in the past and you'll find one of the greatest sci-fi gems ever: Metropolis.

Did Star Wars do anything great for sci-fi?

Not really -- It did more for "blockbuster" movies.

But back on topic, does the Matrix do anything good for sci-fi?

My opinion: Yes -- But it's a very small step in the right direction.



Incidently, speaking of sci-fi, blockbusters, etc --Narangas, we were talking about NGE earlier in this thread and I found out they're making a live action Eva movie.

I'm very disappointed -- Hollywood just can't leave anything sacred.

/me vomits

Took the words right out of my mouth...  :-\

And the rest of the technicolour rainbow.

--edit--
Also, I was wondering the other day what exact percentage of the series is made up of that background of NERV, with the topgraphical 3d model with two layers etc which is panned accross at the beginning of every attack.

Live action NGE?  That's utterly disgusting.  I'm not even a big anime fan but I think that series is fantastic.  That's really disappointing news.


DGM: I agree about Metropolis.  That film blew me away.  I got the chance to see it in a theatre during a screening at my university last semester.  I can't believe what Fritz Lang did, especially considering the limitations of the era.  Great film.


And are you sure it was Sidney Poitier in The Matrix?  I could have sworn it was Denzel Washington.  

I was refering to whoever it was in Star Wars ep 1 and 2.

Apparently no-one here can tell black actors apart (unless they're Gary Coleman or Mr T).

Las: we were referring to YakSpit's post earlier.

I thought he was refering to a post refering to a post refering to mine.

Or something.

No, he was referring to the quality of Keanu Reeves and "SL Jackson"/"Morgan Freeman"'s acting in The Matrix.

OKay, you make one little error in a post at 4 AM and people jump all over you for not knowing the name of the guy from the Reading Rainbow/Star Trek-TNG.

Wasn't that the big guy who has the mouse in The Green Mile?

Yep, that's the one.  His big start was in a sit-com called, "Fresh Prince of Bel-Aire"

You mean Halle Berry?

a) I love how much we suddenly care about getting the actor's name right

b) I loved the green mile

c) where the hell did Denzel Washington come from? he wasn't in starwars or matrix

d) I love Denzel Washington's work

e) I'm amazed at how upset sci-fi fans were at Star Wars... I can understand it though, since I have seen some old sci-fi, it was more "This is what could happen" Jules Verne type stuff.  But I imagine that back in those days sci-fi would be seen as an elitist type of media only for those who wanted to think. I'm not trying to defend star wars, I must admit that a lot of post star wars sci-fi I've seen was centred around planetary disasters or good guys vs. bad guys.

But I say that sometimes we just want entertainment. In the matrix (specifically 2), they tried to make it too entertaining by packing it with cgi and boring fight scenes. Not only that they made a haphazard attempt at being thought provoking. This put the viewers in the wrong mind set and this is the result, a 7 page topic bitching about or praising the matrix. I think this is because we went in expecting more than entertainment, much like the old school sci fi people were expecting more than entertainment from star wars.

f) I like Rocky 1 and Rambo 1, movies for entertainment sake

g) Point e is all over the place, I don't know the point I was trying to prove, maybe I was just sharing an observation, probably best if you ignore it

Wait!

I remember now!

It was Kevin Bacon!

Why don't we just say Macaulie Caulkin and leave it at that eh?

If, as I seem to understand that you are, you're talking about the huge black guy (John Coffey) from Green Mile, his name is Michael Clarke Duncan

No, Kevin Spacey.

I thought Kevin Spacey played the Terminator!?

no, that was the dude in gladiator!

Tom Cruise?

No, that was Steve Buscemi.







...what?

Quit fooling around. We all know you're talking about Joseph Beuys.

  On the live-action Eva thingy; James Cameron was supposed to have bought the rights a few months ago, but the initial speculation was that he was going to make a movie with a similar premise, and he only brought the rights to avoid another Harlan Ellison/Terminator-style fiasco (which was originally the reason he bought the rights to Gunnm/Battle Angel Alita, but it turns out that he's probably going to make that after all).
 It's also interesting to note that End of Evangelion was originally supposed to contain quite a substantial live-action segment, but Anno just couldn't get it filmed exactly as he wanted, and eventually the footage which was shot went towards a short-ish live-action dream sequence and one of the trailers.  There's a website somewhere which details what was originally intended to happen, if anyone's interested...

Ooh i love the early seasons of Fresh Prince...

and its not Joseph Beuys,thats his name backwards, his real name is Goran Višnjic

Ok, I'm not going to try and analyse Reloaded, but having just seen it, my comments are simply:

The rave/shagging scene - wtf?? As many of you seem to agree in this thread, it was totally unnecessary and went on far too long.

Fight scenes - nicely choreographed, fun to watch, but they all tended to go on for too long. If each scene had had a bit cut out, bringing the film down to say 90 minutes instead of 2 hours, I think I'd have preferred it.

The other thing I noticed was the Terminator 3 trailer - should be good, it'll be interesting to see how they make Arnie look hard, being aged about 70 as he is now.

i believe hes about 55 ;P

And I believe T3 would suck horribly.

i guess it all goes down to what every one wanted to happen in the next terminator, if they disagree, they most likely wont like it

Right.
Bloody hell folks.
I've just come back from watching Reloaded.
After reading all the dirge about it, I went in skeptical, and came out a very, very surprised person. I am not afraid to let everyone know that I thought the film was freaking amazing. I guess that makes me a moron who expects little from films... or something...
Oh, you all caught the part about no one ever actually leaving the matrix, and the 'real world' and Zion just being a syphoned off area of it to accomidate for those 1% that reject the program? Good.

Dark Stalkey, all deppends on the expectatives you have. If you expect that the films it´s going to amaze you, it will probably dissapoint you, and if you expect rubbish, you´ll probably be glad of the final result.

DS = muah muah, muah muah, muah muuuahh... :P

Farlander, it's not always. Quite often if someone watches a film and they're just sure they're going to hate it, there's no way they possibly could.

Quote from: Dark Stalkey on Sun 25/05/2003 23:36:57
Oh, you all caught the part about no one ever actually leaving the matrix, and the 'real world' and Zion just being a syphoned off area of it to accomidate for those 1% that reject the program.

Yep.  It caused eye-rolling on my part.

Quote from: Dark Stalkey on Sun 25/05/2003 23:36:57
Oh, you all caught the part about no one ever actually leaving the matrix, and the 'real world' and Zion just being a syphoned off area of it to accomidate for those 1% that reject the program? Good.

I did like the twist at the end, sets things up well for the final film - is it, as you say, that Zion and the 'real world' are in fact part of the matrix too, or are they really on the outside? We shall see.

Shattered Sponge: Wasn't Cameron also going to do a live action Akira, but the deal fell through?

Quote from: DGMacphee on Mon 26/05/2003 05:22:17
Shattered Sponge: Wasn't Cameron also going to do a live action Akira, but the deal fell through?

Geez, does that guy have a one-track mind or what?

DGMc - You're confused.  The ACTOR who will play Akira in the live action is Kirk Cameron.  

All - I'm glad we all correctly figured out which actor played the Terminator.  Of course, it was Arnold.  However, I'm sure very few of you would know the name of the liquid metal guy from T2.  

Spoiler

Eric Kafka

[close]

I thought it was Eric Colossal!

Quote from: Dark Stalkey on Sun 25/05/2003 23:36:57
Right.
Bloody hell folks.
I've just come back from watching Reloaded.
After reading all the dirge about it, I went in skeptical, and came out a very, very surprised person. I am not afraid to let everyone know that I thought the film was freaking amazing. I guess that makes me a moron who expects little from films... or something...
Oh, you all caught the part about no one ever actually leaving the matrix, and the 'real world' and Zion just being a syphoned off area of it to accomidate for those 1% that reject the program? Good.

Just wondering, Darkey, did you expect to see an entertaining movie or an epic tale?

Neither, i think... I just went in expecting to see a movie.

Quote from: CJ on Mon 26/05/2003 00:30:09
I did like the twist at the end, sets things up well for the final film - is it, as you say, that Zion and the 'real world' are in fact part of the matrix too, or are they really on the outside? We shall see.

But this has been done before by Existenz and the 13th floor, how unoriginal. Of course, no one can ever really tell that they are in a "Matrix" unless the Matrix or someone outside the Matrix wants them to... go and read Jostein Gaardner's Sophie's World

Quote from: DGMacphee on Mon 26/05/2003 05:22:17
Shattered Sponge: Wasn't Cameron also going to do a live action Akira, but the deal fell through?

As I understand it, Stephen Norrington (Blade) is still intending to make it; one can only hope he won't screw it up as much as the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen trailer implies he has Alan Moore's great comic, but that's wishful thinking for you.

Why can't those fuckers leave anime alone?

I even heard they were going to a Sailor Moon movie with Sarah Michelle Geller.

The worst part is, she might get the producers to cast Freddie Prinze Jr as Tuxedo Mask.

/me looks around.

What??

What's wrong with watching Sailor Moon?

It's good stuff, especially if you're toasted on bucket bongs.

There was a live-action Sailor Moon; a musical I believe.  
Not that I know anything about Sailor Moon, because I don't watch it - unlike you, you big gay-boy; I bet you watch CardCaptor Sakura, as well!



Am I succesfully fooling anybody?

let's just hope they don't mess with the truest art of anime

Hamtaro is too brilliant to be turned into a movie.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH CARDCA... I mean, no I haven't watched it!

Now I can remember the scripts from both Matrices exactly...

Now that I've seen it, I agree with CJ. At first, all the fight scenes were good, but after a while, they just got boring, and repetative. I didn't understand what those 2 white things are, and finally, one of the worst ways to end a film is with "To be continued"

oh, i thought it was to be concluded :)

liquid metal guy from T2?

duh! that's easy! it was Boston Lowe!

Are you telling me it wasn't Ray Liotta?  You all are nuts.


And speaking of Terminator 3: I heard that the name T3 wasn't the name used in the script- but that so many Hollywood execs didn't find the name "TNA" very funny and/or clever.   I think it's kind of cute tho.

Boston Lowe is the frontman for that group...  what's it called?  Named after some city...  oh yah, Chicago.

And Ray Liotta is the center for the Harlem Globetrotters.

You fools!

"Boston Lowe" is the sitcom that starred Ray Liotta!!!

No, you're thinking of the guest appearance he did on What's Happenin' when he tries to start a lynch mob by recruiting family members.  Ray Liota went on to star in Charles in Charge.

No way, I clearly remember Charles in Charge -- it was a neo-funk metal band in the late 80s that was lead by Peter O'Toole!

(This is getting old, isn't it?)

So, anyone seen the Matrix?

Yeah, that's the movie with... oh, nevermind.   Well, it was fun for a page or two.  :)

I would edit my previous post, but this is unrelated .  I would also let this thread die due to excessive argument/stupidity but what the hell....

I brought Animatrix home from work..  I think it comes out in a couple weeks.  Anyway.. for those that don't know.. it's supposed to fill in some gaps in the Matrix storyline.   So, Matrix-haters beware.  

What it is: A series of animated shorts (total of 9) and a couple of extras done in varying animation styles.  The first one is done with the people that made the Final Fantasy movie and is kinda a rewind in history.  The quality is about that of the FF movie.. very well done CG.  the others are all animation.. the styles vary from straight anime-style to hand-drawn animation style to CG/animation utilizing a bit of what looks to be cel-shading.  The makers of Animatrix got animators/directors from various well-known anime series, among them the makers of Cowboy Bee-Bop and Ninja Scroll.  There's also one done with the collaboration of Todd McFarlane.  

impressions: Thankfully, I haven't watched any yet, so I can't spoil it much for you..  There's a short that's just pre-matrix, one with Neo as a kid in highschool, another from a machine's perspective, and a couple more artsy shorts.  It looks to be very entertaining from a Matrix perspective an animation in general perspective.

Recommendations: I've only flipped through a couple making-of features to get a feel for it.  It's not-rated but I'd give it an "R" for animated violence, mature themes and blood & gore.  Anyone who really dug The Matrix ought to check it out.  Anyone who's an anime fan, particularly of the above mentioned should give it a shot too.  Those who are interested in various forms of animation might find it interesting, even if they detest all things matrixy.  Specifically, I'd assume Helm, Mr. C, and some of our other excellent artists would like it.. Oh, yeah and neole beause it has animated women in tight-fitting/revealing attire.  ;)

this is a bit late and no offence to anyone... but I found Reloaded pretty dam boring, but I was pretty tired, the action rocks..
CONCLUSION:
Action rocks
Story line suks

I've watched three out of the four animatrix downloads. I watched The Second Renaissance first thankfully, and (coming from a person that generally never watches anime, ever) i was very impressed. The second part i've just finished watching... it's grotesquely bizzare. Both had some very 'ick' moments, and add an extra dimension to the whole Matrix concept and storyline.
Program was utter pants though.

yep, I hafta say, after watching it that it was extremely good.  It goes into the category of art, almost.  I didn't care much about the matrix references as the stories themselves.  The only one I didn't care for much is the one with the white-haired chick.  The characters are too anime for my taste and the guys running the ship remind me of some cartoon I used to watch... why can't I remember the name?  Something about a battleship or something.   From CGI to anime to film-noir style anime to CGI cel-shading/animation hybrid, it kept my interest throughout.  Or maybe it was mostly cause I got to watch it without the kids at home to distract me, I dunno.

sorry for bringing this thread back up but

been playing enter the matrix, one cutscene explains whats going on with neo ;)

No doubt.  I think by this point my argument is anything can be happening, anything at all. The rules are so loose it just doesnt matter anymore, and nothing has weight in the series.  We could zoom out at any point and it could just be a kid playing a video game.  All the same.