The purpose of Fan Games

[Nikolas]

Well.. your opinions please.

I personally find it kinda silly. At least in most cases. If you have something to make and alter the game completly (for example taking a text adventure and turning it into 2d Lucas or Sierra style adventure, does make some sense.)

But redoing a game just to improve the graphics (and music), from EGA to VGA (not even 3d), or not doing even that, for example by taking MI1 and making it alomst the same, as AGS does not have the enormous possibilities modern games have. So actually rewritting the same game, in almost the same way, with the same capabilities.

It's been done a lot of times:

KQ series, Larry II, MI (now), Grim Fandango (now)...

If I may ask: Why?

At least take a game and promote it to a new level. Or further the story (with a sequel or a prequel, like Chicky). Be original.

Anyway I'll stop rambling now, and start listening (reading), hopefully.

Cheers

[Saberteeth]

I think the purpose of making fan games isn't just improving the graphics and sound, it's about the ability to do with the game whatever you want. In my case, I wanted(when I was like 7 years old) to make my own MI1 soooo bad that I would make my parents buy the whole program no mather how much it cost.

The way you can use eg. Largo LaGrande from MI2 and Guybrush Threepwood from MI1 and create a whole new world in which you are the leader(check the thread in the comp&act forum ->MI remake and the sacrcastic comment from vict0r, I think It's funny.) That's the 'why' part.

You say it's kinda silly? Okay, that's your oppinion, but why is the AGS forum so full of remakes and old episodes. Most people don't find that silly.

AGS does not have the enormous possibilities modern games have

Hey, we all like challanges! Even technical ones. Look at 1213, AGS mittens shooter, ahmet's fighting engine...the authors are using AGS, the engine desined to make ADVENTURE games.

Well, I've said(written) all that lies on my soul, now for the rest.

SBsLoVeNiAÃ,  8)

[woodz]

i can see the point if it was a remake as a web playable version, something like monkey island 3 is do-able now in flash (OK it would have lawsuit written all over it!)

its an easy option in creating a game i guess, its easy enough to grab images from a game for backgrounds, the story is done for you, the dialog is done, its all programming

[Squinky]

The AGS mittens shooter should not ever be listed when describing the capabilitys of AGS...or for any reason really.

[Saberteeth]

The AGS mittens shooter should not ever be listed when describing the capabilitys of AGS...or for any reason really.

And why not? I'm (still) new on the forums and don't undestand the dark background that it has been shaded in for oh so many years.

[SpacePirateCaine]

As far as most fan games go, I'm not a big fan of them usually. A lot of people start writing their games, obviously with good intentions, but don't do nearly enough research ahead of time. They seem for the most part to just be thinking "I' d really like to see guybrush do this!", paying no attention to whether that'd be even remotely feasable for the characters in the first place.

Even when I'm a hundred per cent certain that I know the plot and characters of a series inside-out, I can rarely see an actual good way to create a decent fan-game without actually consulting with the original creators. That, I believe, is a reason why so many people seemed to hate Curse of/Escape from Monkey Island, even if they had their blessing to go forth and make the game. Fan games, of course, have the benefit of being viewed as fan games, and have a lot less expected of them. But I generally think that if you're going to go through all of the effort to make a game, then an original one is better.

Now, with that said, I'm actually quite impressed and interested with the idea of 'Herman Toothrot's Monkey Island'. He was a character in the game that was unexplored enough, and there's enough unexplained puzzles involving the things he did on the island before Guybrush arrived that it could actually be a really good fangame if delivered properly. If you're going to make a fangame, that's the sort of game you'd want to explore making: One with enough potential to be original without having to worry about conflicting with the personalities of main characters and events in-game. The cannibals, their lawyer, LeChuck's minions and Herman Toothrot are just broad enough characters that it could work.

As far as making essentially complete remakes, without improvements, I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily - it functions more as a test of one's skill, however, than their creative ability (Granted, it would seem there's a lot of creativity involved in making a decent script in AGS, but I know nothing of that, being effectively illiterate when it comes to scripting). An example of this working well is Rui Pires' "Leisure Suit Larry II Point & Click". It removed the necessity of the text parser, which helps make it more accessible to people with dubious spelling abilities, or the impatience to actually type in every possible verb-noun combination they can think of.

Text Parser games often did have the problem of requiring guesswork, to 'figure out exactly what verb the creator intended you to write'. When it's a more visual interface, like sierra's more ambiguous verb icons, you (Although relinquishing a degree of control) are able to progress a bit quicker in-game. So, depending on what you're actually doing, it doesn't seem like a real bad idea in my eyes. Of course, I would like to repeat myself in saying that if you're going to bother, why not do something original?

(Whee, I replaced my keyboard, so I'm back to writing long-winded replies to forum topics that very few people are actually going to read all the way through!)

[lo_res_man]

Heh, heh..the reason I download AGS was to make a game based on Bob, you know the head tossing ghost from MI1? I still think its a good idea, what do you guys think?

[biothlebop]

Certain fan games serve a point (have you seen the Head over Heels remake? download it!), as the original may have been on a platform that is now unsupported. They also bring some old games to a greater audience (I couldn't be arsed to play the first Kings Quests before the remakes, because I had the plot summarized and thought it was plain boring and conventional fantasy crap, but when I heard that fans made a remake of it, I wanted to see what the fuzz was about).

The trouble with fan remakes is as I see it that they often rape the old games because the people that make them have not the vision of the creators / their own contradicts/ they have none.

As an example: I saw the commentary for Robocop I some months ago. In the scene where Murphy's hand is blown off and he is shot, Verhoeven said that it was made ultra-violent, like a crusifixion of sorts, so he could arise as Robocop. When I saw tha movie I never drew any Jesus-parallells to it (although I thought it was great), but after seeing the commentary, I was surprised how many themes/ideas/levels I had simply submissed as "cool, his hand is a stump, look at that".

The thing is that when you make a fan remake, basically the plot, puzzles and other abstract stuff carries over. If you are not able to analyze the original deeply, you won't reproduce the thing that made it so special people actually want to make remakes of it.

[SpacePirateCaine]

Lo-res-man: Pre-, or post-mortem? It could work, if you had a really good concept for it. But it'd be just as easy, and much less limiting to make a completely different headless undead pirate the lead of your story... Sure, people may realize it's inspired by Bob, but you wouldn't have to deal with all of the slack you'll likely get for not being completely true to the MI series.

[lo_res_man]

SpacePirateCaine: I was thinking of post, pre was another idea I had but it was going to be a differant game. The idea was that bob was grooving to the tunes, when his head slips out of his hands,bounces off the deck and drifts away in the lava. now he has to go find the thing. It was kind of a pre-quel, because its in between when lechuck knabs elaine and guybrush attempts to rescue her.

[Adamski]

I think Tierra taking the early Kings Quest games and attempting to make them better was perhaps a valid thing to do, as the originals were so flawed and they injected a lot of originality into their 'updates'. In the case of the Monkey Island remake however, there is nothing that can be done to make that game better - no matter how large you draw the sprites and how many colours you re-draw the backgrounds with you will ultimatly end up with something that pales in comparison to the original, or at best have a direct clone of it with a few extra pixels. Energy wasted that could be spent doing something fresh and great.

People need to start using their imaginations and coming up with their own ideas instead of re-doing games that have already been done. Draw inspiration from your favourite games, but please please stop trying to make your own inferior version of them.

[Nikolas]

Disclaimer: I didn't start this thread because of the fan games already made, or been made currently! I just want to discuss things.

I can understand doing something like this for practise, but still I can only believe that creating something from scratch is much much better... Maybe it's just me, dunno...

[SpacePirateCaine]

I was drawing examples from projects in the past/things that are currently being made to bring relevance to my argument. I totally agreeing that creating ones work from scratch is the best way to learn all sorts of new things, but having something to work from already is a good method of understanding how they were created. That's why in art classes, people are taught at the beginning to use reference photographs and so on - it's a good idea to build up  a solid base of skills and learn from others' accomplishments and mistakes, as opposed to going it entirely on your own.

Now, by that same token, I think that the recreation of existing games should probably be exclusively used as a learning tool - a stepping stone to creating something much better(?) using your own imagination, and the skills that you acquired through the study of previous works. If I ever decided to get my feet wet in AGS scripting, I'd probably start by trying to recreate certain effects from things I already liked and thought I could benefit from knowing how to do.

That's, I figure, what the original purpose of demo quest is. The big difference between recreations/remixes and fangames, of course, is whether you're taking a concept and adapting it, or taking a concept and recreating it. Adaptation can theoretically be good if you're not just throwing everything you don't like out the window and changing it around until it's hardly recognizable, but there's a lot of temptation to take things in a direction that was probably never intended by the original creator - and that's when one should probably ask themselves if they really want to make a fangame, or just a game with the pull of recognizable characters.

[Scummbuddy]

It's been done a lot of times:

KQ series, Larry II, MI (now), Grim Fandango (now)...

Who's fan gaming/remaking Grim?

[Nikolas]

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25281.0

[Scummbuddy]

Yeah, after I just posted, I wondered if someone had made a new post about Grim within the last 3 hours since I checked in the morning, and I hadn't checked there yet.  :

Alright, thanks.
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I am for the most part, okay with fan games, but only if I can tell that a lot of preperation went into story development and continuity.
Fan remakes, are harder for me to understand. I understand graphic updates, such as Kings Quest, but then again, I wasn't a sierra baby, so i hold no attatchment to them being redone, but with new Monkey Island remakes, I just don't understand it. I am okay with turning CMI into MI1/2 graphics, and it would be neat, but I would rather see the talents of them all used for a different monkey island game, if not a whole different game altogether.

But I sure do love see updated graphics of Monkey Island sprites, and whatnot. I just don't see the point in redoing the game.

Perhaps Maniac Mansion Deluxe was worthy of a graphics upgrade, but to me MI is perfect, and although the MI "Deluxe" may gather millions of downloads like MMD did, I doubt it will go changing LucasArts ideas on how adventures stand in todays market. And again, I don't want LucasArts making any more adventures. Give me TellTaleGames, DoubleFine, Autumn Moon, and whatever the heck RonG has been planning for 10 years.

[Anian]

I think many people mistake the fact they're impressed by the game and that they want to do something like it with making that same thing - every book I read, every picture I've seen, every game I played didn't make me think "I want to that" but something like that, maybe even better (from my point of view) - isn't that where artistitry is - in making something of your own
and if you feel that some idea wasn't tapt to it's full potential - then you use some great idea and mix it with your own ideas. don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people making for example a MI3 fan game with another adventure of Guybrush, I want to play those kind of games as much as I can, cause I like the style and the puzzles, but I don't want to trap LeChuck under snow twice for no apparaent reason

making a copy is a skill not art, but in the end it's to each their own, right? 

[voh]

There are three fan-games I want to make. They are, in order of priority: Diagnosis Murder, Titan A.E. and Bubba Ho-tep.

Because those all deserve games.

[Redwall]

I don't think those are the kind of fan games we're discussing, voh...

[Grapefruitologist]

Agreed. I don't get it either.