A small explanation of what's happened.
There came a point a few months ago, that the greek government realised that they wouldn't be able to get a loan from the private sector. So in order to not default the current loans, they turned to the EU, and the IMF. The deal came to pass, with a total of 110 b euros for three years. Problem is that the EU and much more the IMF has 'ordered' the greek goverenment to some severe wage and pension cuts along with other extremely harsh measures.
VAT went from 19% to 23%
Gas went from 1 euro per liter to 1.5 euros per liter
Wages from all public sector workers went down 1/7th.
Pensions the same
and plenty of other issues.
Another main problem is that the rich went almost untouched, as well as those who evade taxation (illegaly of course).
The strike today became a riot and this resulted in 3 (including a pregnant woman) getting killed by anarchists most likely. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8661385.stm)
Things are awful right now and there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel as we speak. If things calm down I would like to hope that things will get better. But it doesn't really look this way. On the contrary it looks that even the army might get involved, which could be the worst case scenario...
In either case, wish "us" luck!
There's no country for the dead men. I just wish this time, we'd stop killing each other, and go destroy the parliament or something.
I/my country can beat that, VAT has been around 22% for about 10 years now, last year it went to 23%. Gas is around 1,2 euros per liter for about a year now. Now there has been a tax class change which basically made the poorest people pay just a little bit less tax, the middle class (broad term though, real middle class is almost gone) and those who have pays about 7x the average pay (which is around 400 euros), they have to pay less tax...somehow.
National depth is in double digits billions for years now. Unemployment is 18.2% which is about 3.2 higher than last year. There are more voters than actual people in the country (cause current goverment gives emmigrants great rights plus it was proven, but not prosecuted, that actual dead people voted in some places) - so there is usually less voters than people, cause there are people under 18 years, but here there's more voters than actual people alive.
There was a war in the begining of the 90ies, from that there's a lot of people who pretend to have been in the army so they have priveleges (taxes, pentions etc.) and the number is around 500 000 people (plus their families). Our country has 4.8 million people, but Yugoslavia before that had 12.5 million people and around 300 000 soldiers and was considered a relativly strong military regime.
Best thing - it doesn't look like things will change, your people are actually getting mad. On the other hand regular football matches end with few people in the hospital, a day or so ago a cop lost his eye an more ended up in the hospital. Kids get beaten almost to a brink of death cause they live in another town that's less than 3 hours away and speak with a different accent, that's become a monthly thing almost.
In any case, wish "everybody" luck!
Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.
The wonders of capitalism.
Quote from: Andail on Wed 05/05/2010 19:02:09
Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.
The wonders of capitalism.
They basically blackmailed my country into giving a part of our territory to them, to be able to join EU, so they'll get no pitty from me.
Gasoline for â,¬1.20 would be a dream, it's £1.20 in the UK, ie. â,¬1.40 or so. So I feel your pain in that regard. Also 60% of that price is duty and tax. I love hearing Americans complain about petrol prices when they still pay about half what we do.
Also Nikolas, thank you for this overview. I admit I wasn't really sure what was happening before, the news about it only trickled down as far as Greece getting loans, I didn't know about the cuts in public spending and the riots :/ . I hope things don't get too unpleasant for you.
It does make me wonder why they didn't increase tax for the very rich. Although in the UK if you earn a considerable amount of money, the tax is like 50%, which is just obscene and absolutely unfair as well.
We hade a fight over this this morning, but eventually Finland agreed to pay the 1,5 billions that were our share. Which was nice because it stopped our bitching government from worse cutbacks :)
Also, yeah, gas prices have been up to 1,59 here, though at the moment they're at around 1,39, so don't complain, get a bicycle.
Right now there's only one thing that worries me. (RIGHT NOW, cause tomorrow will be tomorrow with more worries). The prime minister has been discussing for hours with the ministry of defense, which for me can mean only two things:
a. They are very good friends and wanted to share a beer or something.
or
b. The prime minister wanted to be ready and prepared for the army to step in at any time needed!
Flibble: They can't touch the very rich, cause they became rich in the first place by evading tax. An example. You get a doctor, with an office at central Athens with around 5,000 euros per month. He's driving an BMW X5/6 or something equally expensive. And this guy is claiming that he made less than 10,000 euros last year! FUCK! >:( (which is also part of the problem ,cause not only everyone is getting cutbacks, but in addition you don't see the rich getting anything less...)
I hust hope Greece won't get both the riots and the bankruptcy.
From what I see, there are more political games than the situation can take and there are of course the organisations and individuals inside and ouside Greece who make crazy money because of this and will keep feeding the fire.
It may seem that the Greeks demonstrate once every few days and make riots out of habit, but although it's partly true (political games again and again), there are actually very good reasons for the people to be unhappy and not only in the last six months. The truth is not always what the foreign press conveys to their countries.
That said, fighting the over-the-top and unrealistic (since they never touch the rich and the guilty) measures is one thing, killing people just because they don't want (or can't afford) to go on strike is despicable.
Going on strike is a constitutional right, but making a living and disagreeing with some political parties is also a constitutional right and nobody in a democracy is allowed to force their opinions on others, let alone to murder them.
Quote from: Andail on Wed 05/05/2010 19:02:09
Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.
The wonders of capitalism.
Same goes for Finland, so say the local news here... And the government are arguing about whether or not we should loan any money at all. One of the major newspapers here had a poll about that, about 95% of those who answered (over 150 000 people last I checked) said "no!".
I personally think they got what was coming to 'em! Live large and you have to pay for it eventually. All those olympics 'n such are a real money-leeching-operation.
Quote from: WHAM on Wed 05/05/2010 21:49:59
I personally think they got what was coming to 'em! Live large and you have to pay for it eventually. All those olympics 'n such are a real money-leeching-operation.
Don't believe everything you read in the international Press ;)
Just because a couple of countries with imminent elections describe it as "living large" for their own internal politics, doesn't mean its true for all those lower and middle-class people that don't live large but are punished as if they did.
PS. The Olympics were the only means of pressure to some companies to finish projects (roads, bridges etc) that have been under construction for ages. It was a good thing, in the big scheme of things.
You know what I hate. I hate people dying. You know what I hate more? Is people living like they're dead!
I've had it. I don't care if Greece ends up anarchy. I don't care if it ends up with full hospitals.
What I can't cope with is having my god-damn everyday life!
All there years, we're like, oh, it's okay, things will get better.
Oh, it's okay, things will get better. I'm not saying go kill. I'm saying go do something. And if we're actually gonna go eye for an eye, head for the parliament. Tear down that building, it's only a symbol of Democracy, Freedom, Justice. Where the fuck are those things?
Quote from: WHAM on Wed 05/05/2010 21:49:59
Quote from: Andail on Wed 05/05/2010 19:02:09
Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.
The wonders of capitalism.
Same goes for Finland, so say the local news here... And the government are arguing about whether or not we should loan any money at all. One of the major newspapers here had a poll about that, about 95% of those who answered (over 150 000 people last I checked) said "no!".
I'd like to get a link to this if you please.
Something to be considered: An amount of money of this extent is never found floating free on a states budget anywhere. Germany is paying 22 billion themselves, and that money does not come from the budget surplus of the last year but from a global public loan which is then paid back next year via tax money or saves on certain areas. There's a budget to follow everywhere, and Finland for one has already finished the preliminary budget for the year and the one coming. At this moment the government is suggesting an 1,6 billion addition which is quite a huge cut, but can be added through loan. There's no point in time when the state budget would be not used except for the time when it's used for the governments own leisure, like it was in Greece (corruption talk etc.).
So Andail, as a Swede, I didn't think you'd understand :D not being part of the monetary union and all, and yeah wham, it's not only Slovenia & Finland here. It's just normal budget handling procedure. Most of the money about is floating on thin air with no ground under it. Basically Greece is owning air and we're aiding them with air. Sadly the fuse to it all was a couple of mispriced houses on the other side of the world and a couple of figures on a screen :(
And fuck me, it's 1:31 am here, I should be asleep ready for my class tomorrow, but here I am, writing about global political economy solutions and waiting for my girlfriend to bring her friends over for an after party. Oh, I never thought I'd like economics, but the last few courses at the uni have opened my eyes.
Quote from: Dualnames on Wed 05/05/2010 23:05:24
All there years, we're like, oh, it's okay, things will get better.
Oh, it's okay, things will get better. I'm not saying go kill. I'm saying go do something. And if we're actually gonna go eye for an eye, head for the parliament. Tear down that building, it's only a symbol of Democracy, Freedom, Justice. Where the fuck are those things?
Nevertheless, you'd rather end up with an anarchy than a working set of government. After it's all down, it's harder to rebuild anew.
Quote from: Dualnames on Wed 05/05/2010 23:05:24
You know what I hate. I hate people dying. You know what I hate more? Is people living like they're dead!
I've had it. I don't care if Greece ends up anarchy. I don't care if it ends up with full hospitals.
What I can't cope with is having my god-damn everyday life!
All there years, we're like, oh, it's okay, things will get better.
Oh, it's okay, things will get better. I'm not saying go kill. I'm saying go do something. And if we're actually gonna go eye for an eye, head for the parliament. Tear down that building, it's only a symbol of Democracy, Freedom, Justice. Where the fuck are those things?
"I don't need to tell you things are bad, everybody knows things are bad..."
Perhaps I've been watching too much V for Vendetta lately.
I'd say anian is an optimistic Croat, as he is obviously playing it down. ;)
As for Greece...well, it sure doesn't look good.
My solution would be simple really. As I remember, the first democracy originated in Greece, with politicians not geting payed for their work.
They ruled the country for honour and ideals, trying to make the best decisions for their people. Now the money motivates them, so they are prone to make decisions that go in favour of those that can give them the most money (the rich), which really doesn't benefit the common folk (middle and lower classes, ie. 98 percent of the populace - You don't see the rich demonstrating now, do you?). Those bad decions are now being reaped.
I say that you should remove the decision makers (lawfully, mind you - I'm not advocating revolution here), as they are obviously bad for the most (that'd be the middle and lower classes), and place a democrat/s on top, who will make good decisions for the most of the people, as democrats should.
Too bad most of the politicians are all crooked and linked, so you will prolly vote for them, even if you randomly pick a party from the voting sheet on the next election. Not to mention that politicians breed and raise children to continue after they die.
So, is there a way out? Sure...individually, you could go a bit native and raise your own food, and learn to make stuff you need, thus getting more independant from the goverment and it's problems.
Collectivelly, well that is tough one, though I imagine some kind of a lower class social network, unrelated to the goverment, but that's revolution again hahahaha. Scratch that then, I have no idea.
You keep referring to loans as if the new austerity measures are the only thing Greece will do to pay them off. What about import- export deals, military deals, political deals, legislative deals, foreign affairs and god knows what else. I don't think there is a country who lends another country money just because they have a good heart. The money they lend will come back to them in multiple ways, or they wouldn't do it.
Or you really believe the austerity measures are the only thing the countries who give the loans will ask Greece to do??? Do you really believe that credit organisations play it hard just to save the euro or they wait until Greece is in such a state of (self-inflicted, it's true) chaos that will say yes to everything and sell its citizens short?
I don't say Greece didn't make mistakes. On the opposite, the last years were full of bad decisions or simply self-interest decisions. I just hope this golden opportunity to speculate and make money using Greece's bad reputation won't end up destabilising the region instead of its economy only.
Well as far as I remember from Colbert report, in California they're trying to make elections so you can vote for anyone you want, which sounds great in theory, but it leads to that which Colbert concluded - so the richest man will win. More money equals more exposure and more advertisemnts and more propaganda etc.
No politician is at his post and cannot run a goverment/state/city etc. without favours and connections, as with all social/political/society orders and theories, fine in theory but as soon as you make it "real" and try to make it work in practice, you get the "human factor" (greed, honour, ethics, money, power...) and it all falls apart. I mean, you know a doctor, you'd try to find a faster/better specialist if you're child was sick and yet any other time you hate everybody who uses such favours and manipulations of the system.
Anarchy might not be the awnser but I think the whole civilisation should be restarted.
IMF is a slavery, it's not even necessary evil, it's a product of years of evolvment of political and monetary systems to suit a volentary enslavement (or rather control which is far better) that's perfectly legal.
I mean it's like it came a full circle only upted the ante - free, social connection, slaves, some slaves, feudal (you are free but cannot really leave), freedom with being poor, to thinking you're free but are actually so interconnected with your society (with jobs, credit cards, politcs...) that you are very much controled and ruled but you don't know it most of the time and at others you don't really care.
Quote from: anian on Thu 06/05/2010 00:44:04Anarchy might not be the awnser but I think the whole civilisation should be restarted.
Haha, the first Croatian space colonist!
On a more serious note, after your post, yeah, a clean cut would be best if the things are wrong, but if the situation is fixable, a clean cut would be a bad move.
Or maybe Greeks should adopt the oldest Bosnian axiom of wisdom (hey, they got a pyramid now, they must be old and wise) which answers all problems with the saying: ''Fuck it!'' (Jebiga)
Quote from: Jim Reed on Thu 06/05/2010 01:04:56On a more serious note, after your post, yeah, a clean cut would be best if the things are wrong, but if the situation is fixable, a clean cut would be a bad move.
But that's the point the situations are far from good, everything is so interconnected it's probably impossible to fix something and not do everything again - I mean, look at what the recent crash in USA provoked around the world, the whole functionality of modern world has rotted down to the basics along with human values, morals.
A guy drops on the street and nobody comes to help him for more then two hours, but on the other hand there's like a video where a cat is trying to revive another kitten, trying to help...sad.
Are you gonna change a politician or party at power? You really think somebody far better is going to come along?
...this is not going to make sense in the morning, I can tell already. ;D
Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 05/05/2010 18:12:31
A small explanation of what's happened. [...]
I usually try to stay far away from topics like these, but since we have two worthy greeks here, I'd like to ask a question.
Some commentators here in italy blame the IMF and the bloody capitalits for the Greek crisis, some other say that
there's no free meal and that the greeks should only blame themselves.
E.g, they say that Greece recognize some 600 job categories to be eligible for early retirement (50/55 years), like (rightfully) mine workers and... radio and television anchormen (bacterial hazard), hairdresser (chemical hazard), musicians playing wind instruments, etc. This apply to more or less 15% of the workforce.
To that they add some other stuff, like widespread use of bonus for public workers arriving on time, state money being awarded to childless daughters of public workers and so on.
But what matters to me is the first point. Is this tuth or a canard?
IMO
it's a combination of all things.
1. Yes, we Greeks are slucks. All of us, except me and passer-by of course! ... oh, ok Dualnames as well!:D We also enjoy blaming everyone else except ourselves (as it apparent from my post). In all truth, despite the humourus nature of this, it is actually true! There are A LOT of people in the public sector who simply do not go to work and still get paid. There A LOT of people who do not pay taxes normally and evade paying A LOT of money. The reason is that they KNOW the money won't do any good, since everything still is disorganized.
All of this has lead to a simple situation where everyone is blaming everyone else.
At the same time unions (many, many of them in Greece), have been claiming for the odd 40something continuous 'rights' for their professions. Doctors, lawyers, mechanics (wife's an architect... remember?), etc...
So you get:
a. Many RICH people who don't pay taxes
b. Many public workes who don't work effectively
c. Many professions with special 'rights'.
All this has lead to muh tension over the last few years.
2. At the same time, if you take into account that the austerity measures are basically reducing a family income by 20-30% annually you can understand that it would be impossible to cope. I mean, honestly, the loss of wages, and everything in between has already caused havoc and pretty soon we will have more jobs losts and stores closed than ever! Economy will halt! There's no reason to buy clothes or go out if you can't fucking afford to live...
What's more aggrevating, although evident why, is that the government measurers are touching only those they can: Public sector workers and pensioners. The idea is that the government is paying them so stopping payments is the easiest thing to do. They left the private workers untouched! And while this would be bare stealing, from a social point of view, it would be better than taking them money from pensioers who not only have spend their entire life programming those last years, but also are unable, legally, to work further and do a bit more to cope with the situation.
There already were measures which made people worry. The rise of VAT from 19% to 21%. Various other taxes, the gas tax, and receipts issues. These were in the process of normal measures that people HAD accepted. But IMF fucked things up in this sense COMPLETELY!
____________________
The general consencous over here, at least from my part and the close family is that there are people who stole half Greece, and were part of the government. That there are specific people and situation that broughts us to this. That there are people to blame! But nobody's doing it. And this is one of the things that aggrevated people the most I think.
I mean, you want wage cut backs? Cut the wages to the government and all people involved in the parliament! REALLY cut them, not just withdow a few hundred euros, when they are getting tons of money from various bonuses (all untaxed of course, since they are bonus).
Go out there are literally attack all the scum doctors in central Athens and FORCE them to pay tax. They might be doing away with 100,000 euros per month (literally and I'm being honest here). Make them pay the rightfully 45,000 per month!
This could calm things down.
____________________
In the end? Who's to blame? Everyone I guess. From me (not sure why, but what the heck), to all Greek workers public or not, to the government, to Mercel and her continuous dennial for help at first (due to micropolitical reasons in Germany, since the elections are on Sunday), to the IMF, to... everyone.
The one thing that NOONE is discussing is what to do. How to live. What to change. Current model is NOT working, and this is apparent. But are we going to change things for the better, or just complaint (and eventually kill innocent people?)
Quote from: Nikolas on Thu 06/05/2010 05:53:03
What's more aggrevating, although evident why, is that the government measurers are touching only those they can: Public sector workers and pensioners. The idea is that the government is paying them so stopping payments is the easiest thing to do. They left the private workers untouched!
I partially disagree with this. Checking the austerity measure for public workers I found:
- public Sector limit introduced of 1000 Euros to bi-annual bonus, abolished entirely for those earning over 3,000 Euros a month.
- cuts of 8% on public sector allowances and 3% pay cut for DEKO (public sector utilities) pay cheques.
- freeze on increases in public sector wages for three years.
while those employed in privately own firms will get:
- changes to the laws governing lay-offs and overtime pay.
- extraordinary taxes on company profits.
If I read this correctly, it basically means that all public workers will get something like 20% of their wages cut while keeping their job, while a significant portion of private workers will be "simply" fired. If those are the measures (as I said, I just made a quick google search and I may be wrong), I'd rather choose to be a civil servant.
Quote
In the end? Who's to blame? Everyone I guess. From me [...] to Merkel and her continuous denial for help at first (due to micropolitical reasons in Germany, since the elections are on Sunday), [...].
I think Angela Merkel found herself in a sticky situation and cannot really be blamed that much. As a german newspaper wrote: “The Greeks go onto the streets to protest against the increase of the pension age from 61 to 63. Does that mean that the Germans should in future extend the working age from 67 to 69, so that the Greeks can enjoy their retirement?â€
I know it's a quite populist statement, but... well, the left part of my brain agrees with it.
I've played the perverse person enough :P. I hope Greece and greeks will quickly find the way out of this mess, regaining control of their country as soon as possible!
bicilotti over and out
Yes, but what you might not have considered is that public sector workers are IMMUNE to being fired! They simply CANNOT be fired. So less money is less money and that's the only way for the government to get it 'easily' enough.
The uproar for me about the public sector is exactly that 50% of them (number is almost random) simply do NOT work. While the private sector worker is depending on their actions to not be laid off.
You need to understand that being a civil servant means security for the rest of your life and many rights (for example you actually get almost 2 years leave (I think) when giving birth (talking about females here). Loosing those rights is extremely hard and, in all honesty, wages are rather low, in comparison to real life. Plus you CAN'T (in general) work outside if you are a civil worker.
@ Tuomas: The poll was on the website www.iltasanomat.fi, but I can't find it there anymore. They have a the poll up usually for a day or two before they switch for a new poll (Today the poll is about voting a certain person into the government or not...)
Sorry, I was too slow.
They did have a big headline on the website, I think two days ago, about how many of their readers had already voted against the loan in their poll.
EDIT: Stop the press, I found the link: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/uutinen.asp?id=2125665
Final tally of people against the loan was about 180 000, which was about 95% of voters.
I love it how they make a story out of quotes from average Joes talking about school lunches and whatnot :D
I was just watching telly now, and it seemed, that the left side is quite against the loan, while the right side is more willing. The amount of voters on the side would suggest otherwise though, centre-right being the leading parties here. Though I do understand, that people who go around internet reading news sources such as Iltasanomat, which is a sensationalist daily tabloid, are most probably those, who actually do not vote, but love to swear anonymously over the internet. Also, the lack of information at this point is really a good reason for these results, I'd be surprised if your inbred nation would be willing to pay anything before the matter had been discussed. :)
Maybe I'm misinformed then, but from what I've gathered from Finnish and global media, I think that Greece shouldn't just get an "out of trouble free" -card in the form of big loans (which they will probably not be able to pay back, anyway). I'm not exactly a millionaire, so why should the money that I, amongst other taxpayers, will eventually have to pay up to our government, be thrown in a well (in a manner of speaking)?
I know! It's probably a very complicated matter, and Greece has probably had its reasons, but all-in-all I think its Greece's problem and just like all other nations, they should solve it themselves, as they have brought it upon themselves (grey economy at 25-40% of economy, for example).
Well basically the monetary union is a really complex thingamabob. Greece is accepted as a partner and has the same currency as we do, and the rate of the currency compared to $ is the same as everywhere within the union. The problem here is just that the effect on currency swifting affects on the whole euro-economy while the member states have no control over each other. Same does not apply to national monetary solutions like Sweden, where while â,¬ drops, they should buy it and once it goes up, change it back to dom kronor. The whole issue with Greece affects the creditability of the euro-economy and therefore all of us. Once they were accepted in there they paid the price we all did to hold up the currency. Paying Greece off the market would actually cost a lot more than the package planned, so they have to be fit into a mold that'll bring them up to the level required.
Nevertheless such a system would be fatal should we use it on say, Ireland or Spain. At the moment the goal should be to get Greece back on its feet and then set up rules to which all members must answer. It's a huge hole in the whole scheme, any asshole could have done the same they've now done, and everyone has to pay. But at this point, there's no going back, if we'd do that, we'd all go corrupt. As I've said, it costs so much to disassemble the system, that it's not worth it. And that's basically what keeps the whole system together, and the background forces keep it up and high on the market.
The loose-brained politics of the Greece government is not the only thing that should be put into place. If we're going to have a monetary union, where everyone's dependent on everyone else, but have no say on anyone's internal actions there should be boundaries put to the limits which the private providers and associates have to be ready to follow. In practice an example would be interest limits and limits regarding the amount of money spent and gained. Which is really contradictory to the original goal of the union. Basically we have a crust on the pie, but someone's messing up the berries inside, and the crust can't hold them together. And once the pie gets hot, as it did, the crusts going to expand leaving a lot of room for the pies to mess around. Lucky we still have the biggest pie on the windowsill, but if the balance stirs too much, it'll come apart. we're just protecting ourselves.
The Finnish rightwingers are trying to quickly save the situation we have now on their half while the lefties are trying to dig deeper and prevent such things from happening later on. What ever they decide, there's really no way anyone could make the banks that gave the loans give the money back. No instance has resources to reply to such requests, and even if they had, there's no way they'd give up the profit just for the sake of it. At the moment, it's basically the euro paying back the banks. That's because the one idiot in the team screwed up.