Well, not in history, in recent years will do.
Do you think it's Hitler, Bin Laden, Sadam, Jack Thomson? Bush maybe? (<- just examples)
Who?
Of course I have no idea how to measure "evileness", or how to rank worst people.
but I don't know... If I was to choose from the above four I would have to go:
Hitler (by far the worst of all)
and then I think Bush. I just hate this guy. And the worst thing is that I know that he's like a puppet but still...
Of course everything is subjective here. Don't get me wrong on my ranking, I will definately reconsider after I've seen some post on this.
But seriously think anyone you want, even a guy who might have slaughtered and eaten his kids :P (we have one who did this in Greece, but he's crazy...) and tell me why.
But don't go way back in history and tell me about some Roman guy...
I hope this has not been asked before...
Right now it would be the asshole that set a live cat on fire, in which the pic is to be seen on freakhole.com I don't think i've ever been so upset and pissed off at the same time.
This person is the worst scum of the earth and hopefully will be punished and tortured the same way that poor cat was.
I'm sorry, but i've been very upset and emotional after seeing something like this.
Any person who tortures and kills animals for fun gets my vote.
:'(
He killed a cat. I am hardpressed to not utilitarianly compare this act with the killing of millions, but I'll manage.
post deleted due to misunderstanding. sorry
I have to agree to a certain... degree (wow, a rhyme!). I get more upset about people torturing animals than people. Logically I can't explain it but I honestly think it takes a much bigger shithead to do something that bad to an animal that a human. The exception being kids or idiotd who honestly don't understand what they're doing (not that I wouldn't slap the shit out of a kid torturing an animal).
Worst person in history? God, that's a big call. I'd say there have been FAR worse people that Hitler in all of history but we tend to think of him because he was in a lot of our personal histories (or at least, very close). I can't even call a leader of a country hundreds of years ago truly evil because a lot of that went on in a time where there was no equal rights or strong laws about war and murder. People often WERE brought up to believe their enemy was far below them so killing them wasn't er, well it didn't carry the weight of what a murder commited these days would, entirely. Also, you have to take into account the honour associated with -protecting- your country.
I don't know. Maybe if I had a time machine (or at least a degree in History)...
Quote from: Domino on Wed 19/10/2005 02:00:07
As the thread stated, doesn't have to be history, but recent years.
completely not what my comment was about.
Setting a cat on fire is absolutely horrible. I honest can't believe someone would do something terrible like that. However - I think that's far from making him the absolute "worst person in history". After all, people were burned in the Halocaust, too. And personally, I think that harming a human being is much worse than harming an animal.
Quote from: Kinoko on Wed 19/10/2005 02:01:50
Worst person in history? God; that's a big call.
It is a pretty big call calling deities people.
Why, I didn't place that semicolon there!
All the cats that die go to heaven. And they join the choral section of Professor Jones and the Cloud Cats.
Chris Jones. No doubt about it. I mean, who else could be responsible for turning almost 3000 people into geeks?
I was already a geek, he simply made me a productive one.
Adam and Eve...we'd totally be in the garden if it wasn't for them. And people wouldn't look at me funny when I was naked. Well, they might look at me funny, but not because the act of being naked, just the act of me being naked I suppose.
-MillsJROSS
Worst person in history.... Depends entirely on motive. Did you know Hitler did everything he did for a (to him) very good reason, that he believed was totally justifiable and good and righteous? And what about the Yorkshire Ripper, the Vampire of Dusseldorf, the Night Stalker, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Il Mostro, Ed Gein, David Berkowitz, Charles Manson, Andrei Chikatilo, The Boston Strangler, Jack the Ripper, Albert Fish, Adolfo Constanzo, or JonBenet Ramsey's parents? What about the man who lived two doors down from me a few years back whose stepdaughter came home early from school and so he raped her and then ripped her body to shreds and left it all over the house for her mother to find?
Bush might be an ass, but he thinks he's doing right. As a matter of fact, being an american, I think I have more lease to hate the ignorant bastard than most of you ever will, but it doesn't mean he is the worst man in history. He is a stupid, bumbling fool. He is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans that didn't have to die, and I'm not JUST talking about the soldiers in the Middle East. He says "more and more of our imports are coming from other countries," and "every american from this country that doesn't have a job is 100% unemployed," but that doesn't make him evil.
Just a complete moron.
Now, some people say he IS evil... and have some ways to back it up... But they aren't entirely backuppable...
Again, I have no idea how to measure evil, but take for example the guy who sets fire on his cat.
Now put him in a situation where he has the same powers, the same status as... Hitler. Well, I have an idea that this guy in the shoes of Hitler might do much much worst things than Hitler did.
esper: I know, he's a moron (as much as I can know, being so far away etc.), but still everytime I see him, I hate him...
I wonder whether people here think it's more abhorrent to kill millions out of hate, ala the Nazi government, or to kill millions because they're almost incidental, like Stalin and Mao's.
The former, whilst more...hate filled, at least gives some kind of value, or presence to the lives they're taking, even though that presence is detested.
The latter could be considered to be more akin to manslaughter than murder, but sometimes I feel it's more abhorrent just not to care about whether the lives are important or not, juts dismissing them completely. Collatoral damage style thinking.
As illogical as it might be, I have to go with torturing animals as the thing that inspires hatred inside me.
I might agree. Owning two dogs and two cats, and having a fiancee that owns 5 cats, four dogs, three birds, and various and sundry rodents, I guess I can consider myself an animal lover. However, I don't altogether care for people. I much prefer individual persons. People, on the whole, suck, and are the reason this world is in such bad shape. On 9/11, I really don't know that I cared too much. The Holocaust is ancient history. However, in the case of the girl I mentioned in my last post.... that hit home, because I had known that girl. I went to school that day and everyone was crying and carrying on... But, when I walked into the student center in college on 9/11, the only people really bothered by what had happened were the jackasses that think america is their whole life, and that they owe their freedom and happiness to this godforsaken place. Everyone else was either of the "nice fireworks" opinion, or the "damn that sucks, but oh well" opinion.
If someone even farted in the general direction of one of my kittens (Mungojerrie or Rumpleteazer), though, I might find myself much more upset...
So what we're saying here is that Hitler/Bin Ladden (sp, i think)/ Sadam is better than a guy owning a cosmetics lab?
* A thought crosses my mind *
I'm wondering, my father was a Cardiologist (retired now), one of the best I may add, in Greece and well known throughout the world. This may shock you Kinoko, but every Tuesday he was doing experiments and I have a feeling that he was doing experiments with pigs, at first and then with ships (sp, the animals that go beeee beeee). What do you make of that?
What animals go beeeee beeee??? EDIT: oh, sheep. I think they have more of a soft "A" sound....
Anyway, my take on it is, if it were not for animal experimentation, many humans might be dead right now, and that might be someone important to me. Just don't experiment on my Mungojerrie, or Rumpleteazer, or Macavity, or Tigger, or Bear, or any of my other animals, lest I be quite wroth with you.
We need to eat, and not all of us can commit to a life of vegitarianism. We need to clothe ourselves, and some people like leather or furs. We need to cure cancer, and it isn't the shark's fault that the cure can be found in their cartilage.
But what is evil and what just happened to occur at some point or another are two completely different things. There was a time in my life when I could consider myself evil, and I think just about everyone has done something in their lives that makes them qualify. The actual evilness of a situation is directly proportional to the effect it has on people. Hitler's evil effected an entire world, and it continues to effect the world today. However, without having lived in a world untouched by the Holocaust, I know no other world, and so the Holocaust really does not effect me. Neither does the war in Iraq, neither did 9/11, neither did the explosion of the spaceship Columbia, and neither do any of the worst perversities and horrors to be perpetrated on makind in this century.
What does bother me is someone dickin' around with my kitties, or my dogs, or my fiancee, or my family or friends, or myself. Therefore, since I at some point have screwed something up with all of these things, including having accidentally killed one of my birds, having brought a bad name to my father, and having made my family think I was dead for a year, I am the most evil person I know.
And I think it's the same for everyone, if they look deep enough into their lives. And if not, unless someone else has brought some utter horror down oin them, they're just lying to themselves.
c: del rant
Quote from: Domino on Wed 19/10/2005 01:53:11
Right now it would be the asshole that set a live cat on fire, in which the pic is to be seen on freakhole.com
You know, you
can avoid browsing that kind of disgusting sites
Ok. I just heard the most disturbing new, for quite a while. And to point out how disturbing, I was driving, heard this thing on the radio, pulled off and vommited. So any of you with the weak of heart don't read further.
Spoiler
a child 3 years old, was locked in his mothers appartment for 2 weeks with his dead mother, alone. His mother had a severe asma attack and she died. The child survived two weeks by eating crisps and snacks and drinking apple juice. He was crying all the time, he even tried to cry through the mail box, but nobody cared. He tried pushing out all the mail through the mailbox but the neighbours pushed the envelopeps back in. Two weeks after his mother diedm the nursery called his grandmother to say that he was not coming and if something is wrong. He is not tall to reach the door handle, and not old enough to use the telephone. But for fucks shake, the neighbours didin't care? Didn't smell? The nursery had to wait 2 fucking weeks to call? The grandmother didin't care about her daughter and grandson?
This is a fucking world we live in! I can't believe the way people ignore each other.
Esper's right. People suck!
A bit off-topic but still people suck big time!
That's pretty bad but stuff like that happens all the time, I'm sorry to say. You wouldn't believe how many cases similar or worse than this happen every day.
EDIT: I wouldn't really blame the neighbours in this. They didn't know, how could they? They see someone's on the gound, they push it back in the mailbox. I do that sort of thing all the time. How are they supposed to know, if they even heard the cries, that it meant the mother was dead? Kids cry all the time (I've lived next door to kids that age before. The only strange thing would be a few days of silence). The kindergarten, well... is that strange? I think it's amazing enough they called at all. People don't always go to these things religeiously and I'm sure they have plenty to deal with already and probably just assumed her absence was one of a thousand other much more likely reasons.
Not meaning to pick at you, but I think it's unfair to judge people in cases like these. When you think about it, there was nothing really obvious. Most of us don't live in a society where all our neighbours know us and everything we do. Unfortunately I do so I can tell you it ain't the romantic, friendly scene you might imagine (it's alright sometimes but mostly annoying. I like my city girl privacy).
Quote from: esper on Wed 19/10/2005 09:23:36
having made my family think I was dead for a year, I am the most evil person I know.
How on earth did you do that? And why? ;)
Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 19/10/2005 13:29:31
Ok. I just heard the most disturbing new, for quite a while. And to point out how disturbing, I was driving, heard this thing on the radio, pulled off and vommited. So any of you with the weak of heart don't read further.
That happened in the city where I live and work, Edinburgh.
Well, plenty of people fall out with their parents and don't talk to them. And a mother with a small kid is often late for things she might have arranged and may miss them altogether... you should know! So, I can see quite easily how it might happen. And if your kid is crying you don't really welcome other people sticking their nose in, especially if the child is 2/3 years old as they have tantrums over the silliest little things at this point.
I won't wait for general consencus to tell this story. It's kind of tied in with having sullied my father's good name... If this story is too long or boring or TMI, blame it on Tuomas.
Spoiler
I went to a religious college to get my degrees in metaphysics and contemporary modern theology. Alot of what went on at the college was total bullshite, and thus I took to taking a stand against the administration. It was a small, tight-knit college group, and there were only about 80 students on campus. After a while, I had rallied about 75% of the students to stand up against the college administration. Rather than trying to put down the greater part of the student body, they went to the source and rooted me out, kicking me out of the college for being (get this) a Satanist, and threatening the student body by taking an "urban legend" that had started (that my roommate was demon-possessed) and blaming it on me.
The story spread all over every place where the college had supporters, and pretty soon I wasn't welcome anywhere anymore. I was staying with some friends of a friend who kicked me out of their house suddenly because ::warning Salem Witch Trials all over again:: I was giving the man's wife "bad dreams." I moved a hundred miles away to live with an old friend from college, and after a week his father instructed him to kick me out because I was "of the devil," which he did immediately.
So, at this time, thinking I had nothing better left in my life but to become a wanderer... Yeah, a wanderer... and roam around and around and around and around... I had one of my "trusted lietenants" from college call my family and tell them I had died in a car accident, and, being a total punk, had said as I lay dying in the ambulance to bury me in Virginia and not let my family have anything to do with me, not even to tell them where I was. I figured it would be easier for them to think I was dead rather than to hear all the lies about me. Unfortunately, my friend called me back and said they had already heard the rumors and thought my untimely demise was some kind of "wrath of God" thing.
And thus you have it...
I know you're right. It's just that I have a son who is 21 months old and he with his mother are in Greece, away from me, so you can understand my sentiments on this.
I personally "check" on the people I care about. And I call my folks, as they call me at least three times a week. It's just that I can't begin to imainge the phychological problems this kid will have.
It was just a very big shock for me... It is a bit out off topic, I know...
Shit, esper this is awfull. I can't believe that people can be so "uneducated", hence to believe anything they hear. Really...
I can't understand people who disown their kids, no matter what they've done. Even if they've done something really terrible, if you love someone, you'd want to see them be reformed and even give up hope, surely?
I'm sorry about your experience, esper. Has it got any better since then? Or do they still think you are dead. Oh, and any hints of getting goat blood off of a purple velvet altar cloth? :=
The blood's not supposed to come off.
Anyway, things are only slightly better. My famoo would still rather believe the college than their own flesh and blood. There are even rumors that someone planted evidence in my bedroom while I was gone... most likely my sister. I won't say much more on this matter unless asked specifically, but thanks, SSH and Nik, for having even bothered to highlight the text of my woeful tale. Actually, I think I'm changing my earlier vote on the world's most evil person. The four main administrators of my college are now officially not only the most evil but also the most bastardly...
wow that sounds too bizarre :o
I get called a satanist a lot because of my art and music, but most of the time it's a joke and I play along. But I never thought it could be that bad.
There are a lot of bastards everywhere, you don't have to kill people to become one.
Esper, that's the most outrageous story I've heard so far. Did this take place in today's America? Sounds like something belonging to the dark ages. Completely absurd.
I wouldn't say that there is one single worst person in history, whether it's Hitler or Ghandi. I think the worst is when a group of people get together and do something bad... of course, there's always one person to represent them like W and such.
I think based on Esper's story and stuff that I've noticed I think that the worst group of people are those who believe that what they're doing and what they believe is the right thing to do/believe, and they're usually conservative in what they're doing, and if anyone thinks otherwise then they are wrong, evil, and/or the child of the devil, so they must convince other people that they are so very wrong and that they are bad and doing bad things and push them to follow their conservative ways. Perhaps these people are afraid of what's different because there is a risk of not knowing what will happen in the future.
My vote goes to the Greek coach driver. Miteneers know what I am talkig about and they may agree.
white people. like michael says, theyre pretty scary.
so what if im a racist against white people. im white too.
Based on you're picture, I thought you were read eyed teeth demon thingy... I guess I was wrong.
Most people aren't really evil. Everyone who's evil is just stupid in their own little way, either believing that they're concepts of right and wrong are utterly warped, or they're stupid in their own little way. Except for George Lucas. He's just plain evil.
And no, lucas doesn't count as my answer.
Yeah, Andail, it happened in Virginia, and it reached all over the east coast. I eventually had to move to Arizona (where I am now) where no one had ever heard of me, or the college. I dislike telling this story for one reason: I don't want to give a bad name to the religion of the college, because frankly, most of my very good friends are of that religion and I don't want to bring shame to the people who aren't like the college administrators. However, Edmundo was totally right. Like I said earlier, Hitler was doing what he was doing because he thought he was fulfilling the righteous duty of finding God's Chosen Race (the Aryans) and was weeding out the evil of others. The Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials... All of this was done in the name of God, and righteousness, and justice, and goodness.
Because of my ordeal, I haven't come to, like many others, hate God... It's not His fault those who claim to be His people are stupid...
(sorry, not trying to make this a religious convo... I'm still talking about people, just certain types of people... Let any more on that topic end here and get back to what we were talking about)
Here in America (like I said, getting back on-topic), there have been repeated stories... several in just the past few months here in Arizona... of mothers leaving their children unattended in cars to suffocate and die of heat exhaustion. The last time this happened, the woman was sent to prison, but you could tell she was mortified. However, most of the time, it's some white trailer trash woman that weighs eighteen pounds and is obviously some kind of crack whore, and you can tell from the look on her face that she doesn't give a fetid pair of dingoes kidney's what she's done. There have also been about five, I think, stories in America since 1996 of women who wanted to be with a boyfriend who didn't want kids, and so they strapped the kids into the car and pushed it into a lake or river.
People suck because people are selfish. It doesn't matter if a two-year-old's life is at stake, they still want what's best for them.
I think your experiences would be good stuff for a novel. If only I were a native English speaker I could be your ghost writer :)
And yeah, I agree on the consensus of opinion in this thread; the cant of religious people who believe what they do is sanctioned by God (or some other greater idea), even though it's a matter of the most horrible anti-humanitarian acts of hate and spite and narrow minds, is really the worst kind of evilness.
The white trailer trash crack whore who left her kid behind commited a heinous crime, but at least she's a part of a pattern, it wasn't how she would have wanted her life to be if she ever had the opportunity to choose, she's clearly a victim of something, a failing system, etc.
But a wealthy, fairly educated person with a decent childhood devoid of traumas and violence, can simply choose to destroy a fellow human's life because he believes he'll go to heaven for it.
I would tend to agree, however, (you're going to make me tell more of my story, now. I seriously don't mean to be bogging this thread with my personal crap, but it's important to the topic) I grew up in a poor home, in a little fishing village on the outskirts of a huge, wealthy town full of snobby bastards. I'm a minority (I'm white, but I'm of Portuguese descent, and I only claim minority status because I grew up in a totally Portugi-infested area), grew up living in RV's, and trailers, and was homeless for a year of my childhood (my family ran a little cab company, but couldn't afford an office AND a home, so I slept on hard plastic chairs in the airport where we held our offices). My mother, rather than divorcing my dad, hooked up with a boyfriend and kidnapped me three days before Christmas. My "stepfather" was an abusive, drunken prick, and my mother and he were at a bar one night when I almost died at home of hypothermia when the power failed. When I finally escaped them and ran away back home to my father, three months later I found out he was dying of cancer and had to take care of him for three years, until he died when I was seventeen.
I said all that to say this: I am educated, intelligent, the author of two published books with a third on the way (sorry andail:P). I care very deeply about my fiancee and will try my best to be the best father in the world when we have children together. I have never taken drugs or had too much to drink, and I care enough about my fiancee that I don't sleep around, and I never will.
It's all a matter of choice. Anyone can overcome their situation and raise from their lot in life. The white trailer trash crack whores and their ilk simply choose not to, and don't care one way or the other. Even if I had turned out to be a "product of my environment," I think I might at least be upset when I left my baby to die in the backseat of my car.
This is something I don't think your entitled to comment just because you're a good example.
You were strong enough to overcome the obstacles on your path, not everybody is. It's not simply a matter of choice, for everybody would have gone your way, the american dream, if they could. We're not all alike. Misery and hardships cannot be compared and measured.
Andail: In theory esper's right!
Unfortunately nothing works like in theory. There is a little thing called "chaos" (I don't know how else to call it), which tends to mess up everyones life. Well and this little uncontrolable, unpredictable thing is what messes up all good willing.
Esper, you are lucky! You are lucky that you have managed to survive this, physicaly and mentaly.
What I believe is that I'm lucky too! Well, I sure feel lucky! But I have come to a conclusion that luck has nothing to do with it. It is how we want to percieve and think of things that come to our life. Sometimes something really bad can happen. Like the things that happened to esper for example. Someone would fail, but esper didn't. And now, me being on the outside, say that these experiences are what made esper the man that he is, the author with two published books (and a third coming his way!)
The problem is that I can only speak for myself. Well, right now I'm in a situation, rather ugly, where things can go really really bad. I guess it's my turn to take my personal stuff out (sort of anyway). My wife is 38 weeks pregnant. She left for Greece a couple of weeks ago, with my son (avatar, remember), to give birth there. The reason is that she wants to see her father. He might not live to see his second grandson. He has serious health problems. And I'm stuck here in grey London, searching for a job, without any luck. You know I've even tried IKEA for gods shake! Well all this things are sad, and could actually break a man, mentaly (don't get me wrong, I know that there are worst things out there...). But for me although I'm feeling very blue, all the time, and drinking a lot of beer, I tend to think that this is an opportunity to work more, on my music, to write more tuff, maybe to put up a website. Generally to do what I couldn't do with my family here. And I try not to think that I miss them, but that they're having a good time.
What I'm trying to say here, is that there are all sort of bad things in everybodys life. The trick is to try to focus on the good side of things, as possible of course. There are very few things that don't have a good side (death is one...). The rest seem to have a way of coming up with an undo option after a while.
In espers case it wasn't undo it was a redo. Good for him!
Andail, esper is entitled to comment. He seems that he's been through a lot. On the other hand he is ablsolute and not entirely right. What about someone living in South Africa or Pakistan (now 80000+ dead!) no chance for the dead. None for the survivors either.
Ted Bundy was a sociopath, and ignoring the fact that he may not have recognized distinctions between "right" and "wrong" I'll go out on a limb to call him a fairly evil person. After all, the term "serial killer" was invented for what he did.
He confessed to 30 murders but investigators believe there have been over 100 since Ted was 14. That means 70 families never found out where their daughters disappeared to.
Read up on him sometime. While morbid, an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
People used to be comfortable walking at night, hitchhiking, and trusting strangers. Ted Bundy gave us a reason not to.
Yes, but he is a sociopath! He's crazy. Isn't this enough excuse for what he did? I mean, yeah lock him up for good, for the rest of his life, but evil? I don't know?
Really I think that I define evil as an act somebody does that he knows that is wrong and still he does it. When you do something because you believe is right, does this make you evil? Are all soldiers evil? Or they're defending their country? Maybe the American soldiers, invading IRAW, Vietnam are evil? NO, I don't think so!
Evil is something that is delibaretly bad!
At least that's what I think
If evil exists, you did a fine job of defining it.
But did Hitler command the Holocaust and regard it "an evil thing to do"?
To him it was righteous. He may not have been sociopathic but he and his followers were operating under a skewed perspective all the same. In recent years, many Americans have witnessed a similar sense of nationalism. Some of us feel pretty conflicted about it... but the others, are they evil?
"evil" and "crazy" are standards that you can never scientifically measure. they're concepts for the extremes beyond our own stantards. So I'll agree with you that Bundy wasn't evil. Everyone that knew him claims that he was an incredibily nice guy, actually.
You guys know Hilter had Parkinsons?
I know, and I can't give a more accurate definition of evil or crazyness (maybe crazy people can be defined by phychologists but, I'm not one of them...)
The thing is quite simple (not at all, but anyway as an espression):
Would you kill? Anyone? Anything? For anything? If someone kills my family, my son, my wife, my cat, I could go crazy! Would I kill him/her? I don't know. Probably yes! Does this make me evil?
Well, the last question is the difficult one. But I believe that I would. And saying that I also believe that I'm not as pure hearted as someone else maybe. This makes me "evil" in a certain way. The simple way that no one has the right to take another humans life, or any life for that matter, except in self defense and in order to survive (eat). So...
Shit! It's so difficult debating over the interent ove things that really are at least two sided!
Well anyway for the worst man in history I think that Hitler qualifies much more than anyone else.
And I also find strange that no one has even mentioned Bin Ladden (sp) or Sadam Housein (again sp)...
Why Hitlers action are unjustifiable and Laddens are? Or the other way around, or I don't know...
Technically we have mentioned them, when we were on the case of "religion."
When I was studying world religions at college, the "Christian Ethics" argument was as follows:
If you were harboring Jews in your home in occupied Poland during WWII, and the Nazis found you and asked if you were doing so, would you:
Ã, Ã, A) lie to them, which is a sin (and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone) or
Ã, Ã, B) tell them the truth, not sinning but being indirectly responsible for the death of the Jews.
Do you know (those arrogant bastards) made a public mockery of me in class because I dared say that I would do A, and when they started going at it I told them they forgot option C: Kill the damn Nazis, and walked out of class.
Thus, as it has been stated, the true measure of evil is based in the intention behind the action.
Um, I don't know the specific scenario used in your class there, but even if it only involved a couple unarmed officials, good luck hiding the bodies and hoping nobody knows they were anywhere near your neighbourhood. Because otherwise, they're going to be looked for. And if people keep disappearing when they get to you, eventually they'll come by armed well enough to take out even the killing machine that is you, and they'll find your guests.
So... if you want to be part of an armed resistance to the occupators, that's all very nice and noble and all that, but attracting attention to yourself when you're simply trying to do a little good by hiding somebody is a bad idea.
I am interested to see where you stand on this, though. If C really isn't an option in the situation, do you really think B is better? Did you then?
I think in some ways this ties back in with what Andail cricitised about your earlier post: perhaps there is a way out of every miserable situation that somebody could be in, but that you saw and had the strength to take one out of yours (good for you, congratulations) doesn't mean that everyone can, or even that you yourself could in every situation! "Poor people are poor and their lives suck because they're a bunch of lazy, cowardly assholes" is not, in my view, a good attitude.
Growl....
You had me confused, and then I looked back. I meant to say A... I was at a private college where most people were training for the clergy (I was kind of training for the anti-clergy, but I won't say much more there...), and everyone thought that B was the right answer: turning the Jews over to avoid lying. I meant to say I fought that in college, not that I was the only person who believed that in college. The truth is, I was the only person who thought lying was better than being responsible for innocent lives being taken.
Quote from: Fuzzpilz on Fri 21/10/2005 08:26:00
"Poor people are poor and their lives suck because they're a bunch of lazy, cowardly assholes" is not, in my view, a good attitude.
This is getting rather serious, but this is not what esper said. He's had a difficult life apparentely and he's judging by what he's been through. Maybe he's being a little bit harsh but still of course the example he made was so awfull (The white trailer trash crack whores and their ilk simply choose not to, and don't care one way or the other. Even if I had turned out to be a "product of my environment," I think I might at least be upset when I left my baby to die in the backseat of my car. ).
I think that no matter what even animals protect their babys, and here we have a mother who kills her own. Well for me this is too much. No matter what the mother's been through there's no way to justify this! And anyway the simplest thing was to leave the baby to an orphanage (sp) or outside a door, knock the door and leave.
For some situations there is a way out, or if not at least a less harmful way.
That was my point... I don't really see how I'm being harsh, I'm just calling them as I see them. I'm not saying all skinny white girls that live in trailers are white trailer trash crack whores... That would be like saying (I'm really sorry for this)
Spoiler
All black people riding bikes are thieves.
No, but you came across to me as saying that all "white trailer trash crack whores" (and by extension, anybody in similarly crappy circumstances) basically got that way because they weren't trying hard enough and therefore don't deserve any compassion. I'm sorry if I was misinterpreting you there.
I think we can safely say that in one perspective, evil doesn't exist at all. At least that's my conviction. If we are indeed tabula rasa when it comes to morals and prejudices, and could form our lives freely, based on openminded ethical choices, nobody would deliberately pick the "evil" way. Evil to me is myth and fairytale. It belongs in the universe where things are black and white, where heroes fight villains, etc.
My arguments were more about which sort of "evilness" (since I can't be bothered to implement a new phrase right now) that bothers me most, and in this way, I'm more annoyed when people with lots of means, opportunities and freedom commit heinous crimes (and especially when they justify it with the will of God, etc) than when poor and challenged whose options (even though there may always be a hint of an option left, like in Esper's case) are extremely reduced.
And yeah, "not entitled to comment" sounded a bit harsh, but I meant that I don't think anyone can pass judgement that freely on another person, when you know nothing about this person except that he/she is in a horrible situation. You can never look through another person's eyes, or enter their brain.
It's just like when people say "it's always cowardly to commit suicide, and I resent it", just because they have, themselves, been in a situation close to giving up all hope but found it again, and so they apply that on every other person.
You can never pressume or pretend to know what another person is feeling or thinking.
No, I understand now. I kinda did come off as saying that. I can't actually think of a better way to put it. I've worked with all sorts of people... I've seen people throw away their lives because of one bad decision that they were repeatedly warned against. I've seen (as I'm sure we all have, at least from watching Cops women stay with men that eventually kill them, although they are warned that it will happen. I've seen mothers let their children freely wander in the streets and come home shot up from gang violence and not care. I've also seen a young woman, in bad situation, who alot of people on seeing her might pass the judgment that she is a "white trailer trash crack whore" care so much for her five children that she willingly gave up her life to defend them from a robber, even though they resented her and never showed her anything in return.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are some people who don't need to be showered with compassion, but it isn't our job to judge who they are (like Andail said while I was posting this).
However, everyone DOES have a chance to make it, I believe. Strength is a choice. Dignity is a choice. Honor is a choice. Love for others more than yourself is a choice. Sometimes it's a hard choice, but in the end, it is a choice. Some people would rather die than make the right choice, but that is, when all is said and done, a choice.
I'm going to shut up now, because I sound like a poorly scripted anime. Not to mention I think this is going way OT by now.
So problem solved! Yeah! ;D
I think I have a talent of making threads that turn out to be arguments between members. ;D
Anyway suicide, Andail, is an action that has no undo. And that's the problem with that! Apart from the fact that you do more harm to the people you leave behind rather than yourself. So it is a selfish deed. Theoritically speaking of course. But from my knowledge most people who commite suicide, do it for "small" reasons. People with huge problems usually fight back, and get on with their lives.
I know of a frined of mine, dead now, who left a little girl (her daughter), alone because she commited suicide because her husband was cheating on her, and taking money. Come on there are so many worst problems than your husband cheating on you, this is not worth suiciding , and even worst leaving behind your 5 year old girl. BTW, I'm very sensetive with little kids...
Again it is a fact that I can't judge because, I 'm not her, but given the facts that I just mentioned, it was not worth it... I've met a guy, who is tottally paralyzed, and the only things moving are his head and his left arm. Now this is sad! This is worth of suiciding. But no! He spends his time writting in a laptop, and taking baths on the sea (with the help of his fiancee). That's what I'm talking about!
Every human being in the world has the potential to be evil. So essentially it is stupid to call anyone the "most evil". Is Hitler worse then someone that privately believes everyone should kill the Jewish people? I hate all of us, we all can do unbeliavably bad things. Yet at some times we can do good through killing or "bad" acts. In my opinion people like Wiston Churchill and Roosevelt were true "good guys" but does that mean people that wanted to do what they did aren't just as good? Bleh Im not even making sense anymore. So much to say, such a little vocabulary.
No, Shitar, go on... I understand what you're saying! ;D
No honestly I agree with you. and I'm the one who started the thread! Maybe I should change the question to what is the most hedious, worst act that you have ever seen, or think it is? Is it the terrorist attack of 9/11? The attack in IRAQ? Maybe the burning of a live cat in front of a camera? The burning of millions (?) of Jews? The two atomic bombs of WWII? Again I have to stress that I don't know how to measure these kind of things. And there is no wrong or right, everyone can think on his own!
I think there is a difference, though
Sometimes I have wanted to hit people and didn't do it. Obviously, I'd be less evil if I had never wanted to hit them, but that I restrained myself is somewhat virtuous. On the other hand, sometimes I shot the people instead... :=
Perhaps this thread could be consolidated with another Gen Gen thread. I mean, since Jack Thompson is obviously the most evil man on the face of the planet.
Obviously.
There is much i'd like to discuss, but i don't have much nerve to write it all, so i'll just say that i believe most of the "evil" comes from our insecurities. Someone who is fully confident wont be bothered with some of the provocations this world seeds, the person can rise above it. There are a lot of factors connected, but mostly, it's our PERSONALITY that is actually the mover of things, and believe me, every sane person can change to better with using only his brain.
We are human beings and our destiny is to learn and improve during life. Some do it more while some are stuck in a mind pattern, which can sometimes be destructive. But I'm also talking about the fact that the more confident person could rise above situations where because of people's shyness something bad happens. How many times have you seen, or at least heard about a case where someone weaker was being in any way molested in front of a crowd, and everybody could see that it was for real, and the victim wasn't enjoying it, but no one did nothing. People would just be standing and not believing it, or perhaps being happy that it's not them in that situation.
Well, that brings us to our conclusion. Most people, as someone before mentioned, don't care really THAT much about other people (and i think that's because of more reasons than the obvious), and when something bad happens to them it's mostly superficial. But if it was the case with someone they are close with, or even themselves, i don't think they would be so indifferent about the case, and would really like some help.
I hope you guys understood what i was saying.
The point is that the story of bad and good could be simplified with the saying:
Don't do to others what you don't want for yourself.
( I think I just almost-quoted Jack Thompson! - tho' he was more classy with his words)
Izar
Quote from: Czar on Fri 21/10/2005 19:46:20
Don't do to others what you don't want for yourself.
AMEN to that!
Quote from: Czar on Fri 21/10/2005 19:46:20
( I think I just almost-quoted Jack Thompson! - tho' he was more classy with his words)
Maybe, but your heart is purer, and your intentions as well!
Oh, BUSH, definatly. Although its pretty close
Czar, you should definatly become or switch careers to an author.
Snaezycorangeio: Try not to double post. If you want to add something four minutes later than your initial post, you can choose to modify rather than to post a new post
Quote from: Snaezycorangeio on Sat 22/10/2005 00:04:59
Oh, BUSH, definatly. Although its pretty close
Come on now, that can't be true. There definitely have been worse people than him, no matter what the media tells you. And I'm sick and tired of people saying that bush is worse than Hitler--he's not.
In terms of consequences, if his time at the wheel helps lead to the US sliding into out-and-out batshit fascism as Germany did, (which I think is a possibility, though happily it still seems like a fairly remote one; indeed, more so now than, oh, a year ago, I'd say) he will be. That obviously has the potential of doing far more damage, on all levels, than the Nazis did.
His administration has done quite enough to be considered a pretty bad thing to have happened to the world. Worse than Hitler? So far, nah.
King_Nipper, I BELEIVE this was an opinion question. So just leave me alone and stop "following" me around and making negative comments to me on almost every board I post!
I believe King Nipper is entitled to an opinion also, don't ya think?
I think he is entitled to his own opinion too, but he keeps dissing me on every board I go to!
What the hell are you talking about? This is an open discussion, and plenty of people's ideas have been argued over before. And i didn't "diss" you at all in my last post. Nor did i before that. I told you to stop being so negative and try to make you look on the bright side. So don't judge me so quickly and please read my posts more clearly.
Excuse me. Both of you. King_Nipper and Snaezycorangeio talk and argue with each other all you want with P(rivate) M(essages). Not in the forums.
[joke]
Esper: Who said you're welcome in Arizona, you midget demon-worshipping cretin! Get outta my town or I'll send the Hell's Angels to slit your face![/joke]
Who said I'm a midget??? I'm six feet tall????
Humwawa, brother of Pazuzu and the ancient Sumerian god to whom I commit my human sacrifices, on the other hand, is only about three feet tall...
You're a six feet tall midget then. :=
Anyway I think there's a tendency that most thread discussions would go offtopic soon...