Things changing in London, and the world

[pcj]

the point i'm trying to make with the santa claus letter reference is that just because a letter is supposedly written by or to somebody doesn't mean that person exists or that the events took place, i could write a series of fictional letters right now and bury them somewhere and in 1000 years time somebody could discover them and jump to the conclusion that because they're dated back 1000 years that they must be real and the events actually happened because they're ignorant as to what actually did happen.

Well, that'd be nice if there was only ONE copy of your letters.  But there are THOUSANDS of ancient copies of books of the Bible, many extremely close to the date of the books' original publication, making it the most historically accredited book in existence.  I mean, we even take the background of the Trojan War in Homer's Odyssey for granted, and there's only a couple of ancient copies of that.  And then we have Josephus and other sources to back up the events of the New Testament, to say nothing of the archaelogical record.

[Fuzzpilz]

Epsecially after killing an innocent man from Brazil, just because we has feeling cold, so he had a lot of clothes on (?) This seems a lot like 1984...

He didn't. He also didn't run into the station and jump over a ticket barrier. Apparently the whole thing was simply a surveillance mixup combined with overeagerness (and, in the case of the initial bulky-clothes and barrier-vaulting misinformation, idiot eyewitnesses). That it raises questions about police procedure and competence is clear, no matter what you think the answer to these questions is, but 1984? No. No.

[BOYD1981]

Well, that'd be nice if there was only ONE copy of your letters.Ã,  But there are THOUSANDS of ancient copies of books of the Bible, many extremely close to the date of the books' original publication, making it the most historically accredited book in existence.Ã,  I mean, we even take the background of the Trojan War in Homer's Odyssey for granted, and there's only a couple of ancient copies of that.Ã,  And then we have Josephus and other sources to back up the events of the New Testament, to say nothing of the archaelogical record.

yeh and there are millions of copies of the harry potter books, what's your point?

[Tiki]

i suggest you do some research on the origins of religion and stop accusing me of being het up about religion when it's obvious that what i'm saying is pissing you off more than what you're saying is pissing me off.

Well, you're the one doing the offending.  You're an athiest, we can't exactly mock you for being so, yet you can (and readily) mock us for our religion.  And why exactly would an athiest be telling us to look up origins of religion anyway?  Are you claiming to far greater knowledge on the subject then us?  I dislike NASCAR and the whole racing deal, and I can classify the whole thing as some idiots driving in circles.  But by no means can I tell them they don't know as much as I do on the subject of racing, nor could I easily take offense if they started accusing me of ignorance and stupidity.  I just wouldn't care, I would have no interest in racing anyways.  Why do you seem care so much?

yeh and there are millions of copies of the harry potter books, what's your point?

Harry Potter was written by one person, and even she made numerous mistakes throughout the series.  Yet, the Bible was written by dozens and dozens of people, a majority  of whom would never meet or communicate, all living hundreds and thousands of years apart, and all of their stories match up.  I have yet to ever have heard any real evidence disproving the Bible's consistancy.

[pcj]

yeh and there are millions of copies of the harry potter books, what's your point?

Harry Potter is a work of fiction mass-produced by a publishers which have printing presses.  The Bible was copied down by hand when only important stuff was written down.  The fact that the Bible has survived all this time not only makes it the biggest classic ever, it also shows what it means to people.

[BOYD1981]

and how many revisions of the bible have their been exactly? and are you talking about the old or new testament?
also, you could all mock me for being an atheist and say i must be posessed by the devil or something incredibly stupid like that, i won't mind, honest.

and by studying the origins of your religion i don't mean study your religion from books written about your religion for your religion, i mean study how your religion came to be.

and wtf does nascar have to do with anything?

[Tiki]

NASCAR was used metaphorically, as I'm sure you're aware.  Where did your santa clause letter come from?

As for revisions, they have nothing to do with the matter.  All revisions still follow what the original Greek, Hebrew and whatnot said.  They do not stray from it, and if they do, they are not considered to be truthful.  The only revisions I can possibly think of that made it through would be changing things like "And she was stoned" to "And she received a stoning", for obvious reasons.  And I hardly doubt changing that could damage the Bible's consistancy with itself.  I have yet to hear you mention any mistakes that the writers of it made.

[pcj]

and how many revisions of the bible have their been exactly? and are you talking about the old or new testament?

I'm talking about both.  And if you look at the original Hebrew/Aramaic, which is what I'm talking about, there are only a miniscule amount of differences between copies, most of which can be easily attributed to the error of the copyist.

[Kinoko]

Id just like to mention the fact that while 9/11, Spain and London were mentioned in the OPs thread, Bali was missing. Does noone outside of Australia know about the Bali bombings? Id definitely put it among the other three.

[shbaz]

I'm talking about both.  And if you look at the original Hebrew/Aramaic, which is what I'm talking about, there are only a miniscule amount of differences between copies, most of which can be easily attributed to the error of the copyist.

Except for all of the books that Constantine threw out or modified.. yeah, there was that.. the dead sea scrolls do not match up exactly at all.

That's what Boyd meant when he said, "Learn the history of your religion."

Christmas rests on a pagan holiday, not on the day of the actual birth of Jesus which can be historically linked to near Roman tax season, at another time of the year.. among many other things that were modified to mix Roman paganism with Christianity. There was no other way to just tell half of the country, "Hey, you're gonna have another religion now," so Constantine mixed and modified the two.

[pcj]

You've accounted for less than 100 manuscripts with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and those merely confirmed what we already had.  And we're obviously not considering the ones Constantine got his hands on.

And the exact date of Jesus's birth was never claimed to have any importance; it's extremely likely that if people knew the date, they'd worship it more than considering what Christmas is all about.

[shbaz]

You've accounted for less than 100 manuscripts with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and those merely confirmed what we already had.  And we're obviously not considering the ones Constantine got his hands on.

And the exact date of Jesus's birth was never claimed to have any importance; it's extremely likely that if people knew the date, they'd worship it more than considering what Christmas is all about.

No, they didn't confirm what humanity already had, they added several new psalms that probably haven't been seen in over a millennia and a half.

They were also written in the time that Jesus supposedly walked the Earth and made no mention of him. Why? Because Jesus was not anything special to them, nor was he the first to claim to be the messiah. Many people before him had claimed that, and many people are still claiming that today. Sure, the bible says he performed miracles.. but there's also that one part where the Egyptian magician does some pretty wild and "out there" shit too, before being matched up by the great Jesus. Does this prove that Jesus was performing miracles, or just that he was a better magician and maybe the people weren't too sure exactly what they were seeing? It can go on like that forever.

Really, this quote sums it up for me:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)

[pcj]

No, they didn't confirm what humanity already had, they added several new psalms that probably haven't been seen in over a millennia and a half.

Well, obviously some of it is apocryphal, but that's because the Essenes had some weird ideas of Judaism anyway.  They were one of the many sects of Jews at that time, and they soon faded into the Pharisees.

They were also written in the time that Jesus supposedly walked the Earth and made no mention of him. Why? Because Jesus was not anything special to them, nor was he the first to claim to be the messiah. Many people before him had claimed that, and many people are still claiming that today. Sure, the bible says he performed miracles..

True.  But there were also a number of proofs evident that Jesus was their Messiah that they refused to see.

but there's also that one part where the Egyptian magician does some pretty wild and "out there" shit too, before being matched up by the great Jesus.

Um...no.  I think you may be confusing the story of Moses and the Exodus with that of Jesus.  Jesus never had any "miracle competitions" with Egyptians.  And even the Egyptians in Moses' time acknowledged that they couldn't do what Moses could do.

[Squinky]

Jesus is fucking metal.

[Timosity]

You can't stop a well planned terrorist attack (everytime), no matter how good you think your security is. It happens when you least suspect it. It's a terrible thing but that's just the world we live in.

It creates wars that kill many more people, which causes more attacks, etc, endless cycle

Tsunami Kills more people than all combined, lets declare a war on mother nature, oh yeah, we allready have.

My advise, just be friendly to people and accept people for who they are.

It may seem like a small thing, but if it rubs off on a few people, it may spread, and eventually everyone will be friendly. (no i'm not a hippy)

Then someone thinks, why is everyone so friendly, I can take advantage of them, and bingo, vicious cycle.

I don't think much has changed, just the location of a few recent bombs, which happen to be in more media driven places.

You brag about living in a free country, then someone that doesn't gets pissed off and tries to make you see how they've grown up, it's pretty childish and taken to extreme levels.

I also don't see much point to this thread

[Kinoko]

Timosity knows the score.

[TheYak]

I'm chomping at the bit to get into religious discussion, but it's rather off-topic.  Media coverage has made each terrorism-driven event more dramatic and universally-known than in years previous.  The wonders of hypocrisy! The majority of US citizens did not give a shit about the types of things that've been happening worldwide in the past couple of years.  Now that we've become a victim, it's important.  Anything disaster or terror related has been so plentiful in the news I'm quite surprised - I haven't heard squat about Bali bombings.  Looks like I've got some googling to do. 

[Erenan]

I'm chomping at the bit to get into religious discussion, but it's rather off-topic.Ã, 

Amen. (hee hee hee)

Could we please keep this about terrorism and not about whether the fact that religions exist is to blame for it?

[Nikolas]

To Kinoko: Sorry I didin't know about Bali sorry. I will try to research a little bit afterwards...

The way things are turning in this thread I also don't see much sense to this thread anymore.

But I love writting and saying my opinion so there's a lot to say here still:

Ok. I HAVE to agree with Boyd on some points, as the new and the old testament were copied from hand to hand from A LOT of people, and actually I've never seen a hand made copy perfect from the original. On little tiny word in the original (times 1000) means the whole testament is (a bit or a lot) distorted...

And of course the fact that we have Orthodoxe, Catholics, Protestands, and I don't know how many other similar religions that seem to agree on a lot and disagree on a lot more points out that there are a lot of things to question about Chirst and lot things surounding him. But what's the reason?
Really It is PERSONAL. No matter how anyone tries the fact remains that every human being believes into something (or not, Boyd) and this cannot change no matter how well we try.

Fuzzplizt: I know that it's not 1984 for that reason. It's just that these things (killing innocent people) seem to be really easy to be happening. And actually I've not heard a single name from a policeman. Who shot him? Are they going to trial? No matter what the reason this is manslaughter and not for defense. Shouldn't somebody be punished or something?

Erenan: Thank you...

What really bothers me is that everytime something happens, it's the Arabs to blame. Or if not the Arabs, someone black, colored, middle east, Asian of some sort. And suddently half of the western world (Ok. USA, UK, Spain) are making war. IRAN, IRAQ, SAUDI ARABIA, maybe SYRIA later, and who knows which else. And of course DUBAI which is so lovely, so rich and so willing to cooperate with everyone is left alone to bloom...

[Nikolas]

The terrorist attacks in Indonisia claimed 200 lives and another 300 were injured. That was in 2002.

And there was another terrorists attack in Egypt.

Just to let everybody know, which counttries to google if they want...

Sorry for the second post