Seriously, wtf? What are your thoughts in this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S5usRgY720&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S5usRgY720&feature=player_embedded)
There is nothing wrong with how people choose to live their life, but at 7 years old and talking like that...the parents obviously are not doing something right and have something to do with it....I'm sorry I watched it.
I'm not having this. Kids this age are far too young to have made their mind up about something like this. Sure, they might behave like a girl and play with dolls and even say they want to be a girl, and by all means stand by them. But at least fucking wait for them to hit puberty before labelling them 'transgender', because chances are, when they discover boobies they'll change their mind again.
I agree. This is obviously the mother wanting her boy to be a girl. I would almost bet any amount of money that the father is not in their life. This parent should be ashamed of herself for twisting this kids mind at such a young age. Kids only know what you tell them and what they hear, this kid has obviously been coaxed along to say these things. Poor kid is probably going to have a tough life because his parent sucks!!!
What parent puts their child on YouTube saying these things. The Mother has made sure there will be no way in hell this kid is ever going to be a boy ever again, she has made his mind up for him, shame, shame, shame.
Well, as a parent myself my first reaction is like most to say kids at that age are too young to make decisions like that.
But after reading about his/her/schler's story I don't think she's been coaxed or coached into this.
Also, point of order you guys are a little behind the times. "Jazz" is now 12+ years old.
http://www.advocate.com/Arts_and_Entertainment/Television/TV_New_Transgender_Sensation_is_Eleven_Years_Old/
(http://www.advocate.com/uploadedImages/ADVOCATE/ARTS_AND_ENTERTAINMENT/TELEVISION/2011/rosie-jazzX560.jpg)
Also as stated numerous times in the comments on that out of date video, transgender does not mean they went through the surgery or treatments yet, it just means they're living as a the gender they feel they, it may change sometime down the road it may not, though talk to enough Trans-individuals later in their life and most state they knew they were in the wrong body at a young age.
Yeah, according to what I read s/he hasn't had any surgeries and is only taking hormone pills off/on. If you read towards the bottom of page 2 of that article I posted ^^ there is a rather humorous/disturbing(?) story about a certain "fairy" that Jazz was waiting for.
I'll leave quoting that to people who have been on these forums longer than I have. ::)
8BitFreak's avatar pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.
@Progz: Agreed. It's a suicide waiting to happen, IMHO.
Is there something like a "sure thing" in this kind of situation?
I think that a kid with 7 years is way to young to take such important decision, but, how can someone be sure about the consequences of whatever the parents allow or not?
Of course, no one has considered the possibility that she has be vetted by an experienced health care professional and has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder. No she's just 'wrong' because you guys know all about sensitive psychiatric disorders.
Getting a little cynical in here.
I'm pretty sure I knew *my* own gender by age 7. Didn't you? The trouble starts when your parents start telling you you're wrong.
These are just parents who didn't presume that there was no way their kid could be trans. Perhaps they were aware of how often childhood discouragement fucks up transgendered people later on.
Transitioning is difficult enough as is, and it starts much younger than most parents are comfortable with, if they're comfortable with it at all. Why draw it out? Why force her to rack up the same laundry list of issues that so many transgendered people deal with in their adolescences?
This song seems somehow appropriate ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuSilWHnczA
The leading questions posed by the interviewer suggest they're trying to show the child off in a sense. "Look how headstrong and special my 7 year old is." Sounds like the mother does have a factor in it. Also in the article the child is insisting that he's always been like that, such as correcting them by saying he actually wore boy's clothes before he was 5. I reckon the special attention from being a transgender 7 year old gives some fuel to the behaviour.
But the belief in a 'good fairy' is a little odd so yeah, even to a layman it's clear they've got some psychological disorder, and I'm not going to label and blame the parents because of it (even though they might 'exploit' it). It's like the reverse of penis envy.
Quote from: Trapezoid on Sun 22/01/2012 22:27:10
Getting a little cynical in here.
I'm pretty sure I knew *my* own gender by age 7. Didn't you? The trouble starts when your parents start telling you you're wrong.
These are just parents who didn't presume that there was no way their kid could be trans. Perhaps they were aware of how often childhood discouragement fucks up transgendered people later on.
Transitioning is difficult enough as is, and it starts much younger than most parents are comfortable with, if they're comfortable with it at all. Why draw it out? Why force her to rack up the same laundry list of issues that so many transgendered people deal with in their adolescences?
It's very complicated: What if he (she?) is NOT pretty sure about his (her?) own gender, but his (her?) parents are just trying to help the best way they can do, even if they are not really helping?
It's wrong or not? Where's the line?
I'm afraid there are no "good" answers just right now....
That's a video of an articulate and intelligent child. If you watched it out of context, would any of you be horrified or declaring the kid a "suicide waiting to happen"?
I'm not sure giving a child the label of transgender is useful, but neither is forcing the label of 'boy' or 'girl' on someone who is unhappy with it.
Quote from: Noctambulo on Sun 22/01/2012 23:29:03
It's very complicated: What if he (she?) is NOT pretty sure about his (her?) own gender, but his (her?) parents are just trying to help the best way they can do, even if they are not really helping?
It's wrong or not? Where's the line?
I'm afraid there are no "good" answers just right now....
If that were the case, later in life the kid would have to come to terms with being cisgendered. Oh, the trauma! Imagine what a battle it would be to suddenly have to live with the horrible stigma of "being accepted by society and all major religions".
Okay, kids are weird. Maybe sometimes they play around with gender and identity as a "phase." But in this society, in which gender roles are hammered into everyone's heads from birth from all sides, if a young child can still believe they're a gender other than the one issued to them, there's probably a reason.
And if a family seems to be happy and liberated by their choices and their understanding of one another, my instinct is to trust their experiences over my own notions.
SHE'S PRETTY HOT
Quote
That's a video of an articulate and intelligent child. If you watched it out of context, would any of you be horrified or declaring the kid a "suicide waiting to happen"?
But Ali, there is a context that is un avoidable. The parents here have allowed their child to make a permanent and ill informed decision that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
- doesn't know what transgender means
- doesn't know what sex means
- doesn't know what having sexual relations means (not same as above)
- hasn't thought about career
- hasn't thought about having/not having children
- hasn't thought about meaning and purpose of life
- hasn't thought about lining a meaningful and purposeful life (not the same as above)
- hasn't thought about death, mortality of self, parents, & other loved ones
- hasn't thought deeply about anything yet
- doesn't have many skills or accomplishments
- hasn't had to suffer consequences of bad decisions
- hasn't had to deal with failure
- doesn't know that someday mommy, daddy, and teacher won't be there to make everything better
- etc, etc, etc
It's just my opinion and I certainly could be wrong, but I think that a day will come when this person is extremely unhappy with the way life turned out.
How happy, proud, satisfied would any of us be if we were stuck for life with choices we made when we were 7 years old?
[edit]
Hehe, ;D .... and then there's ddq (who posted while I was typing) who makes everything I said irrelevant with just three words.
RickJ, you seem to be under the impression that she's had sexual reassignment surgery. She's only taking hormones, which is legal and considered safe even at that age.
On a related note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras The youngest person to actually get such surgery was 16. She knew since age 2 that she was a girl, and her parents only reluctantly came to accept it, i.e., it was not at their pushing.
By the way, if a person identifies as female it's a polite gesture to refer to them with female pronouns. Calling them by the opposite is rightly considered a big "fuck you."
Quote from: RickJ on Mon 23/01/2012 01:05:31
But Ali, there is a context that is un avoidable. The parents here have allowed their child to make a permanent and ill informed decision that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
There's a context, which we are largely unaware of. It's the context of that family's private life, how stable, loving and supportive they are or aren't. I don't know anything about that context and I'm not keen to condemn or applaud these parents.
And almost all of us
are stuck with the gender we felt comfortable with at the age of 7.
DDQ is a master of debate.
Quote
By the way, if a person identifies as female it's a polite gesture to refer to them with female pronouns. Calling them by the opposite is rightly considered a big "fuck you."
Trap thanks for bringing me into the 21st century. I didn't intend to be impolite to anyone. When I went to school it was taught that "he" is also a gender neutral pronoun and should be used in circumstances where the person's sex is not known. I have been goggling around and found other suggestions such as using one, they, or he/she none of which seem appropriate (he/she sounded pejorative to me in this instance). The most helpful advice I found was at the following link:
http://answers.grammarly.com/questions/186-is-the-word-they-used-correctly-in-the-first-sentence-should-i-reword-the-sentence/
Quote
DDQ is a master of debate.
He certainly is. We should award him a couple of Larrys for his win --- hehe, ;D or do I have it backwards, maybe I should get the Larrys for having lost in such a spectacular way? := := := LoL
Dunno if anyone else has seen this: http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/five-year-old-boy-opts-to-become-a-girl.html
He has even managed to persuade his school to make the toilets unisex... cunning little bugger, I know his game, the little pervert. Wish I'd been as cunning as that ;D
All of you with the severe overreactions, you can't possibly know what being trans is like. From what I can tell (from the trans people I actually know), many of them felt from an extremely young age that they were the opposite gender of their anatomy.
If anything, I think their parents should be applauded for taking the initiative and supporting it, rather than putting that kid through the hell of going through puberty and having to live a lie via suppression, like so many people I've come across.
The amount of trans-misogyny in this thread is appalling. Grow the fuck up.
Quote from: DeadSuperHero on Mon 20/02/2012 21:47:28
If anything, I think their parents should be applauded for taking the initiative and supporting it [..]
I'm not so sure about that. A young boy growing up in a house full of girls, he may want to dress up as these girls and do things the girls do. But why would it instantly be because he suffers from Gender Identity Disorder.
Or a girl growing up with brothers treating her like she's defective just because she's a girl, will definitely push herself into being more tomboy ish. Try to fit in with her brothers and prove to them she's just like them. It happens all the time, I witnessed my cousins doing this to their sisters and saw how it affected them.
So with the parents applauding the child into wearing the opposite sex clothing and helping support him/her, may actually be worse for the child. He/she's young, wants to fit in with their siblings or friends, doesn't in anyway mean the child has GID.
QuoteThe amount of trans-misogyny in this thread is appalling. Grow the fuck up.
That's a little harsh and you're being just a little naive to believe that a child knows what its doing at that age.
I agree the parents shouldn't allow this until the kids are at an age where they understand what they're doing. At 5 years old, I could have convinced myself I was a robot. With parents applauding my actions, I would have been one messed up kid who still believed he was a robot. Shit, I know how messed up I got after watching the Truman Show. After watching that movie I always suspected a camera was watching me at all times, a part of me still believes this is happening.
@ DeadSuperHero
I don't deny that many trans-gendered people would have known from a young age that is how they wanted to grow up. But I do deny that the reverse is necessarily true. Just because young child says he or she wants to be of the opposite sex, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the child's destiny.
If it was my child I would of course support them, but would also encourage him or her to be patient and see how it plays out until at least puberty. Anyone who's read His Dark Materials knows that a child's daemon is changeable all through childhood and doesn't settle in permanent form until puberty. That sounds fair to me.
Kill it with fire.
I mean, the parents who were okay with this. I deny 21st century.
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Mon 20/02/2012 22:28:34
I'm not so sure about that. A young boy growing up in a house full of girls, he may want to dress up as these girls and do things the girls do. But why would it instantly be because he suffers from Gender Identity Disorder.
Or a girl growing up with brothers treating her like she's defective just because she's a girl, will definitely push herself into being more tomboy ish. Try to fit in with her brothers and prove to them she's just like them. It happens all the time, I witnessed my cousins doing this to their sisters and saw how it affected them.
So with the parents applauding the child into wearing the opposite sex clothing and helping support him/her, may actually be worse for the child. He/she's young, wants to fit in with their siblings or friends, doesn't in anyway mean the child has GID.
Before you start throwing around GID like it's some thing a kid experiments with and ends up never being sure about, I suggest that you take at least more than two seconds to read up on the disorder, and then possibly go talk to some trans people about how they feel about it. A majority will say that they've always felt the way they do, and if they could've done it before they hit puberty, they absolutely would have.
Also, can you even comprehend the courage it takes to come up to your parents (even as a kid) and say that? This isn't a matter of sexuality, this is a matter of personal identity in relation to the spectrum of gender. Anyone of any age can comprehend that for themselves.
Sure, there are going to be isolated cases where a girl acts a little tomboyish, but what you're inferring is that the environment a child is in shapes his or her gender identity, which is also not unlike saying being gay is a choice. It's a crock of shit.
QuoteThat's a little harsh and you're being just a little naive to believe that a child knows what its doing at that age.
Am I? A large portion of my friends and exes are trans, and they would beg to differ. But hey, if you want to beat gender-normative standards into their brains with a Bible, I'm sure a lot of religious conservatives wouldn't bat an eye at it.
And for those of you making the statement about a "suicide waiting to happen", trans suicides largely are the result of how these people are treated by those that refuse to understand them. Even worse is the huge homicide rate against trans people that get murdered for, you know, being trans. The world they live in is often not a fun one. Just the other days, one of my closest friends was in tears because she was so tired of going downtown and having people yell at her that she'd never be a "real girl".
It's that kind of treatment that makes you want to give up on life.
QuoteI agree the parents shouldn't allow this until the kids are at an age where they understand what they're doing. At 5 years old, I could have convinced myself I was a robot. With parents applauding my actions, I would have been one messed up kid who still believed he was a robot.
That's a huge straw-man argument. Parents of trans kids have historically said that they see signs for years indicating that their children are a little bit different: boys playing with dolls, girls playing army, tons of constant questions about why boys dress and act one way and why girls dress and act another. Even slight feminine and masculine traits in opposite genders in children have been observed.
Some resources, most of which make your point moot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTxRxvMR4-0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_youth
@DeadSuperHero
Don't you think that one thing it's what an adult could think about it's own childhood different from what a child could think about him/her as a grown up?
I'm not saying that you don't have a point (a very strong one), but I believe (yes, it's a belief) that it's better to wait a little longer to let a child to take such an important choice.
Do I think that the parents of that boy (girl?) are bad people? No way. I believe they are loving, even brave and really interested in their son's (daughter's?) happiness, but I can't say that their choice was the best (as I really hope it is)
I think it's a toss-up, really. It's actually easier to make a gender transition before a person hits puberty, as the level of hormones can be controlled more easily, and you don't have to do things like up the level of estrogen in a Male-to-Female transperson when they're having a flood of testosterone and other hormones coming in when they're older.
Any person that's transitioned during adulthood or late teenage years will tell you that transitioning is very emotionally difficult. The amount of mood swings an adult trans person goes through is terrible, and that's mainly a product of trying to alter a body that's so used to having certain levels of estrogen/testosterone.
So, I mean, I get what you're saying. Maybe 3-5 is still relatively young, but at some point, that parent's got to support their child's decision, and they have to make the call about when the least emotionally and least physically difficult time to transition their child would be. Do they want to do it when they're younger, citing the above issue, or would they rather wait until they're "old enough"?
The other consideration to take into place is social settings. Do you really want to send your transitioning kid to high school without hormone treatments, or for that matter, do you want to send your kid that you kept repressing because they "weren't old enough to be sure" into a high school setting where they come out in front of everyone after years of suppressing it, only to be faced with the cruelty that usually comes from a high-school class that has little grasp of maturity?
These are all considerations a parent has to take when their kid says something like that when they're that young.
Quote from: DeadSuperHero on Mon 20/02/2012 23:21:37
Do you really want to send your transitioning kid to high school without hormone treatments, or for that matter, do you want to send your kid that you kept repressing because they "weren't old enough to be sure" into a high school setting where they come out in front of everyone after years of suppressing it, only to be faced with the cruelty that usually comes from a high-school class that has little grasp of maturity?
All good points. Conversely though, would you want to plug your child full of hormones, which will alter his physical apprearance, on the assumption that he's 'transitioning' when in reality he's just going through a phase. I'm just suggesting that you can't know for sure at such a young age It's the parents' duty to nurture their child but I would say that rushing to put their confused child through various treatments and things s/he doesn't fully understand is somewhat of a failure of that duty.
QuoteI'm just suggesting that you can't know for sure at such a young age It's the parents' duty to nurture their child but I would say that rushing to put their confused child through various treatments and things s/he doesn't fully understand is somewhat of a failure of that duty.
I think it's a tough call, but I'd like to think that parents that jump into these kind of things have done as much research as possible.
On a seperate note, Trapezoid, are you the Trapezoid that I think you are? (Lemon Demon) :=
It's not trans-misogyny, we're talking about decisions with ginormous consequences on one's life, made by a kid at an age where they have no hindsight*, don't know decisions have consequences and tend to make decisions on a whim, and these parents gave in to their kid.
Better, more responsible parents would have refused until adulthood, and would have supported hir through the hell that is high school. Do you honestly believe hir high school years will be less hellish now? It will be hell, one way or another.
*Or insight? You know, "A sitting old man can see further than a standing young man."
I think we are forgetting that this girl doesnt really get to 'choose' in that sense. It's not like she said "hey mommy, i'm a girl!" and then they chopped the penis off.
She would've been seen by healthcare professional who can assess her mental state and determine whether or not she truly does have gender identity disorder. I mean for god sake people, do you think you can just walk into a doctors office and say "CHANGE ME! FOR I AM OF THE OTHERS!"?
Quote from: blueskirt on Tue 21/02/2012 14:49:01
Do you honestly believe hir high school years will be less hellish now? It will be hell, one way or another.
That hell is the fault of others.
This story is on the front page of the Sun... and they are being nice nice about it. Which is astonishing really.
Since there is a high correlation between the opinions of the Sun and the opinions of bullies, maybe her school days will be alright after all.
Quote from: blueskirt on Tue 21/02/2012 14:49:01
It's not trans-misogyny, we're talking about decisions with ginormous consequences on one's life, made by a kid at an age where they have no hindsight*
...
*Or insight? You know, "A sitting old man can see further than a standing young man."
I don't think this makes sense. Can an old man (seated or otherwise) look back at his childhood, when he
didn't have gender identity disorder and give these kids advice?
Quote from: Ali on Tue 21/02/2012 15:38:32
I don't think this makes sense. Can an old man (seated or otherwise) look back at his childhood, when he didn't have gender identity disorder and give these kids advice?
That IS the point, because maybe some of these kids don't have GID neither...
Which is why these decisions should be made by the families and psychologists involved, rather than opinionated people on the internet like us.
Quote from: Ali on Tue 21/02/2012 16:58:33
Which is why these decisions should be made by the families and psychologists involved, rather than opinionated people on the internet like us.
We are here to share thoughts, not to determine the fate of anyone. And you don't know if some of that "opinionated people on the internet" can be facing the same situation, do you?
By the way, if you think that way, that doesn't mean that your against this kind of forums?
Quote from: Ali on Tue 21/02/2012 15:38:32I don't think this makes sense. Can an old man (seated or otherwise) look back at his childhood, when he didn't have gender identity disorder and give these kids advice?
So you're saying anyone who didn't have gender identity disorder as kid is not qualified to comment on the issue? ;)
You know what I wanted to say. When adults look at a pony, they see the pony but they also see the money and time spend on the barn, food, vet and cares. Kids just see the pony. I don't have a criminal record, that doesn't make me any less knowledgeable about life to tell younger people not to ever do anything that might land them with a criminal record lest they want their life to end like Cart Life. There's plenty of decisions I made which I regret, I'd have loved to have an older version of myself to tell and explain me why some of my decisions are bad ideas.
All I'm saying is. If it was my kid, I would not have given in like this kid's parents did. I would have supported him however I could, I would have been there during the tough years, but that final decision would be him to take, when he's no longer a teenager and his brain stop pumping this drug that makes everything feels so damn intense and/or looks like a good idea.
But let's suppose I'm wrong, it could happen, would it have been such a terrible idea to just wait 'til he's 12? Just to be more sure?
Quote from: Noctambulo on Tue 21/02/2012 17:23:27
We are here to share thoughts, not to determine the fate of anyone. And you don't know if some of that "opinionated people on the internet" can be facing the same situation, do you?
By the way, if you think that way, that doesn't mean that your against this kind of forums?
What I mean is that we know very little about these individuals, so we shouldn't rush to judgement.
I wouldn't endorse the parents' decisions without knowing more. But I certainly won't condemn them. The people who are condemning them, in such damning terms, do nothing but contribute to the culture of bigotry and prejudice these people will have to face.
Quote from: blueskirt on Tue 21/02/2012 17:44:19
So you're saying anyone who didn't have gender identity disorder as kid is not qualified to comment on the issue? ;)
No, I'm saying that the vast majority of are currently living with the gender we felt comfortable with as a child. Which means that when we were kids,
we were correct about our gender. That experience should encourage us to take the kids' feelings seriously.
I agree with you that the parents ought to be very cautious, and that it would be preferable to wait until the child is older. But puberty means that they can't wait forever. It's hard to imagine something more miserable than going through puberty in the wrong body.
Also... I hope you haven't spoiled the end of Cart Life for me!
I did not! D:
Or if I did, it was by accident. I didn't get that far into the game. By that I meant the general feeling of dread I get from the black and white and gray graphics and from having to manage every little cents of your budget, feeding your little dude crap food and not knowing if you'll make it to the next week. It brings me back flashback of being unemployed. Criminal records tend to close a whole lotta door.
Quote from: Noctambulo on Tue 21/02/2012 17:23:27
We are here to share thoughts, not to determine the fate of anyone.
And yet all I've heard in condemnation towards the parents for endorsing their child's choice and encouraging her to be who she wants to be. But no, if a child knows the particularities of their sex prior to age 13 it is obviously their parents fault. If a child is so distraught by their body that they try to mutliate their own genitalia it is obviously just a phase they'll grow out of, like when you were four and wanted to be Spiderman. Except for the part where you try and cut off a part of your own body from the anguish you feel...
They're not forcing the kid into surgery. They're not forcing the kid to act in any way at all, they're just letting the kid act how she wants to in a respectful manner rather than letting it be something that the kid would feel ashamed of.
But no, clearly they are the bad guys. Not the people who think that the poor kid should be forced to live as a boy until she's "old enough".
Quote from: Galen on Wed 22/02/2012 19:23:02
Quote from: Noctambulo on Tue 21/02/2012 17:23:27
We are here to share thoughts, not to determine the fate of anyone.
And yet all I've heard in condemnation towards the parents for endorsing their child's choice and encouraging her to be who she wants to be. But no, if a child knows the particularities of their sex prior to age 13 it is obviously their parents fault. If a child is so distraught by their body that they try to mutliate their own genitalia it is obviously just a phase they'll grow out of, like when you were four and wanted to be Spiderman. Except for the part where you try and cut off a part of your own body from the anguish you feel...
If that's all you've heard from me, then clearly you haven't been paying attention at all ;)
Still, the opinions on this forum don't determine the fate of anyone...
By the way, Did he (she?) tried to mutilate his (her?) own genitalia??
Quote from: Galen on Wed 22/02/2012 19:23:02They're not forcing the kid into surgery. They're not forcing the kid to act in any way at all, they're just letting the kid act how she wants to in a respectful manner rather than letting it be something that the kid would feel ashamed of.
But no, clearly they are the bad guys. Not the people who think that the poor kid should be forced to live as a boy until she's "old enough".
They are giving him (her?) something "a little bit" stronger than aspirins. Maybe it's not a surgery, but...
3-5 years appears (at least to me) to be way too young to take that kind of decision. Maybe I'm not a specialist, but, are you one?
Quote from: Noctambulo on Wed 22/02/2012 19:56:27
They are giving him (her?) something "a little bit" stronger than aspirins. Maybe it's not a surgery, but...
3-5 years appears (at least to me) to be way too young to take that kind of decision. Maybe I'm not a specialist, but, are you one?
Which is why she will, closer to the time, be given hormones to delay puberty until she is old enough and adjusted enough to decide if she wants to go through with it or begin to transition. That is point of the decision.
Surely you didn't think they were giving gender-specific hormones that, to my knowledge, don't even exist in the body in any significant quantity until puberty has begun to a four year old?
And yeah, she tried to cut off her penis while crying from the story I read. That's a bit more intense than wanting to be a robot in passing.
Quote from: Galen on Wed 22/02/2012 20:05:41
And yeah, she tried to cut off her penis while crying from the story I read. That's a bit more intense than wanting to be a robot in passing.
That makes me think it might be a good idea to keep children in the dark about the other sex's genitalia until a certain age.
Quote from: Galen on Wed 22/02/2012 20:05:41
Quote from: Noctambulo on Wed 22/02/2012 19:56:27
They are giving him (her?) something "a little bit" stronger than aspirins. Maybe it's not a surgery, but...
3-5 years appears (at least to me) to be way too young to take that kind of decision. Maybe I'm not a specialist, but, are you one?
Which is why she will, closer to the time, be given hormones to delay puberty until she is old enough and adjusted enough to decide if she wants to go through with it or begin to transition. That is point of the decision.
Surely you didn't think they were giving gender-specific hormones that, to my knowledge, don't even exist in the body in any significant quantity until puberty has begun to a four year old?
And yeah, she tried to cut off her penis while crying from the story I read. That's a bit more intense than wanting to be a robot in passing.
Seriously...Are you kidding me?? Did you at least read what I wrote?
Quote from: Ascovel on Wed 22/02/2012 20:13:21
Quote from: Galen on Wed 22/02/2012 20:05:41
And yeah, she tried to cut off her penis while crying from the story I read. That's a bit more intense than wanting to be a robot in passing.
That makes me think it might be a good idea to keep children in the dark about the other sex's genitalia until a certain age.
Now that you mention it... :-\
Quote from: Ascovel on Wed 22/02/2012 20:13:21
Quote from: Galen on Wed 22/02/2012 20:05:41
And yeah, she tried to cut off her penis while crying from the story I read. That's a bit more intense than wanting to be a robot in passing.
That makes me think it might be a good idea to keep children in the dark about the other sex's genitalia until a certain age.
I don't want to have to start buying "Happy Finally-Learning-About-Genitals Day" cards for people.
One of my dearest friends is Transgender, and decided this at an early age. Around the age of ten and it was his own choice. Amazing person isn't a "suicide" waiting to happen. Seriously people be more open minded.
Just came across this on my daily round of Yahoo! news:
http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/zach-avery-understanding-children-and-gender-confusion.html
QuoteFirstly [as mermaidsuk.org.uk (http://mermaidsuk.org.uk) explains], it is important to remember that even children who experience gender identity disorder are not inevitably going to wish to change their sex when they reach adulthood.
Sometimes the issues are transient, and pass. The NHS says: “In most cases, this type of behaviour is just a normal part of growing up, but in some cases of gender dysphoria, it persists into later childhood and through to adulthood.â€
UK charity the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) (http://www.gires.org.uk/) notes that, of the relatively small number of cases of young children the organisation has seen, 80 per cent “did not progress to become transsexual people†â€" i.e. undergoing surgery to alter their sex.
I picked these quotes, mainly because they are from reputable sources and not just Yahoo!'s opinion, and also because they support the kind of argument myself and others have been making, that families should wait and see how things pan out before labeling a child as 'transgender' or anything similar.
I think the NHS may have been misquoted. Probably an accidental adding of the word 'some':
In most cases, this type of behaviour is just a normal part of growing up, but in cases of gender dysphoria, it persists into later childhood and through to adulthood.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx)
That makes a big difference to the meaning.
I think we'd all accept that most children with gender issues don't become transsexuals. But I can't understand why some people are so confident that they know better than the child's parents and doctors.
All I'm saying is it seems more sensible to wait. Is that really so unreasonable? Judging by those quotes it seems that the majority of people do wait, and the majority of the time it turns out to be just a phase.
Only when a reasonable 'point [of no return (for want of a better phrase)]' has passed must the children, parents and doctors be sufficiently confident that this is one phase the child will not be growing out of. In my humble and ignorant opinion, the onset of puberty seems like the most reasonable and logical place to put this 'point'.
I wasn't using "some people" in the way people use it to mean "YOU!", I meant the people making more condemnatory comments.
I agree that caution and care are needed, but the kid is not undergoing surgery. In spite of what some people have said, she doesn't seem to being treated with any drugs. She's just acting the way she feels like acting.
If she was being given medication, it would surely have been mentioned in the sneering and revoltingly petty Daily Mail Online article I just shortened my life by reading. The hack responsible echoes some of the more damning comments in this thread, and obviously doubts whether being transgender is a real thing at all.
It's also worth noting that even if most of the kids seen by GIRES don't undergo surgery, that doesn't mean it's just a phase that they grow out of and that they don't become transgender (or indeed transsexual people who undergo hormone therapy without surgery).