Hello, my name is Babar. I have been a member for a while now, and I even used to frequent the old ags site before it stopped. I lost ags for a while after that (not being computer literate enough to search for it) ::). I am what is known as a lurker or roamer or something, meaning that I rarely post. I just work with my game (however slowly) and look over the forums trying to learn some stuff.
Coming to the point, I wanted to comment on the behaviour of the members towards so-called "noobs". I mean, come on, give them a break. This people have found something they enjoy, something they can create entertainment with, and they need your help to get started. Sure they may try to act a little 8) at first as they do not know how it all works, but that's no reason to unload on them a barrage of insults and put-downs. Enthusiasm for ags is soon turned into disgust for the 24hr online help. Sure, it may all be meant in fun, but how are they to know that? I mean I've seen conversations that go something like this (Now don't ask me to prove it, this is just an example):
noob> Hey everyone! I love AGS!!!1!!111! can you tell me how to <insert request here>?
elitest member1> lol! STFU noob!
elitest member2>lol elitest member1! noob doesn't know about the fullhiflowdiadox2121{934.3,64,43} command!! STFU Noob!!
noob> sorry, what does the fullhiflowdiadox2121{934.3,64,43} command do?
elitest member1> it does what you want depending on the quasi-mondo diatomic variable you place in the 2nd decimal point of the number that comes before infinity! Any idiot should know that!
noob> just f*ck you all! your just a bunch of sealless goose chuckers!!
ultra politically correct member> Hey, now don't go dissing goose chuckers and calling them sealless, there are a lot of them using these forums and its not nice
noob> WHAT A BUNCH OF NUTS!!! ARRRGGGGHHH!!!@11!!21 I'm out of here
Sure they may act stupid in their first few posts, but they are new! They will learn after awhile, that is if you do not scare them off before that. I mean, you want the AGS community to grow, right? You'll have to accept noobs for that. Hey wait a minute!!! What if you don't want them to grow! What if AGS is trying to become a closed elite community that will use AGS to take over the world! Naaa... I don't think so. Therefore be kind to the unhumble noob so he spread the word of adventure and all..
(btw, I don't really consider any ags commands to be as complicated as fullhiflowdiadox2121{934.3,64,43}, but some people may find it a trifle difficult. Also, what does STFU signify? I have seen it used a lot but don't know)
Thansk
Quote from: Babloyi on Sun 04/01/2004 20:52:24Also, what does STFU signify? I have seen it used a lot but don't know)Thansk
Oh man ...
Shut
The
Fuck
Up!!
I was a stupid noob once ... now I'm just stupid :)
edit - noobs will almost always be treated that way. It's a hazing type thing.
I don't agree at all.
Never have I seen an ordinary technical query being met by that kind of scorn you present in your little example.
When it comes to technical support, the ags-community must be one of the absolute friendliest in the world, and I thank our techies for their working around the clock.
Most of the times when people are mocked, it's because they haven't read the "read before posting" threads, and consequently make a few mistakes, like advertising for team-members and hyping projects withour anything to show.
All in all, I think compared to many other communities out there, this is one of the friendliest, and as long as you don't spam, overpost or violate the forum policy, you're almost guaranteed to not become mocked or flamed.
Please notify me the next time you see somebody recieve that kind of treatment you mentioned, without earning it whatsoever, and I'll give the responsible ones a good bash :)
I agree with Andail, but I think we could be more friendly to the new people he mentions also.
I just wanted to point out that if your example happens to be from #ags, it never was meant to be a place to ask technical questions.
I don't really go to #ags so I can't complain about that, but I wanted to say that it is not always "an ordinary technical query". Someone may ask something like "how do I make a person?". Sure, its a ambigious and silly question, but the guy is just a noob and doesn't know how. The reply will probably be a dozen "RTFM!!!" along with the weird little emoticon I have no idea how to duplicate. The manual is all good, but there are some things hidden in places where you do not expect them, and it is possible to get the search words wrong
So it is #ags you are referring to?
If you see this happening again pm one of the operators in the channel, the people with @ in front of their nick, and explain the situation. Except for Roger and BlueCup who are bots.
nononono, you misunderstand, I said I don't really go to #ags, so until you mentioned it I was unaware of any problems occuring there. However, I would gladly include that in my arguement, so in conclusion, yeah, that too
My advice applies for the forums also. Contact the moderators if you see it happening. Then it is up to them to judge if the situation is bad enough to warrant a reaction. I agree with you to some extent like I said above, a few of the oldbies do tend to be a bit over the top at times.
Perhaps it is my selective memory talking here, but I can't really recall enough of such events to justify such a public plea to stop them. Can you please give examples of cases when newbies were mistreated that way?
Quote from: Andail on Sun 04/01/2004 21:04:25
When it comes to technical support, the ags-community must be one of the absolute friendliest in the world, and I thank our techies for their working around the clock.
They definately do work around the clock. For instance, when I first started coming here, I wondered about how to make characters go from one room to another in real-time... Scorpious replies, and subsequently writes the CCS plugin so that everyone would be able to use it... now that is just brilliant!! ;)
I've never bashed a newcomer unless I was joking around, or they were getting on everyone's nerves. Any questions a newbie may have, I'm always ready and willing to answer to the best of my abilities.
i've seen it alot in the beg. technical forum... it's mostly TK i read being a jerk.
and people could say "but reading the same question over and over again gets annoying so I get frustrated!"
so don't post, there are tons of people who will help, there's no reason for you to post and if you wait a little while instead of just acting on impulse and insulting this person then you'll have calmed down or someone else would have answered
http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=10501;start=msg127375#msg127375
jerk who didn't even read the question
http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=10602;start=msg128091#msg128091
question was answered, continued to be a jerk
I think Babloyi has a point.
I have also thought that some people are being too negative or inconsiderate towards new people. It's understandable but still... it doesn't really help anyone, in my opinion.
I usually only post something that is in positive or helpful tone. It's not cool to wait for replies when you know they'll probably be negative towards you. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with the fact I'm posting less and less all the time. ;)
It's also worth noting that those who haze "n00bs" are, in the relative scheme of the board, almost invariably "n00bs" themselves, so what they say doesn't bear much weight as indication of the elitism of the higher caste of users.
That elitism is far more subtle and sophisticated.
It's been a while since I've seen newbies trashed that way...but it does happen, sadly. Well...not THAT way, it's an obvious exaggeration, but close. I think it just has to do with peoples' moods at the time. I won't name any names, mostly because I like everybody here, and any time someone has stepped out of line it's ended up being far our of character for them...and nobody's perfect. I don't know, as long as people don't make a habit out of doing it (which so far they haven't), it's somewhat excusable...
...but it doesn't hurt to be a little more sensitive either. Ah, I don't know. I keep thinking back on a specific example, but it doesn't do any good to go dragging up old graves. Point is that sometimes I think we let our "wit" or whatever get ahead of our brains and say things that really shouldn't be said outside of a comic strip.
I think some people here speak of isolated events when somebody has lost his temper and written a few insults.
It's a completely different thing when a whole bunch of people go on bullying someone, and nobody does anything about it.
I've never seen the latter happening without a moderator, CJ or just some mature member interfering and stopping it.
So I simply don't think we should complain.
Quote from: Andail on Mon 05/01/2004 01:12:05
I think some people here speak of isolated events when somebody has lost his temper and written a few insults.
It's a completely different thing when a whole bunch of people go on bullying someone, and nobody does anything about it.
I've never seen the latter happening without a moderator, CJ or just some mature member interfering and stopping it.
So I simply don't think we should complain.
STFU Noob!
LOL, oh Helm -- You always make me laugh, you wacky Greek!
As for the whole noob issue: we sorted that out ages ago.
Noobs are always welcome here.
We don't haze noobs.
We haze people who act like morons.
For example, let's just say you made a demo for a fangame, and you told everyone they could get it on Kazaa...
EDIT: You're not the real Helm -- fuck you for making me believe you were!
What TK did in those two threads is unacceptable. I sadly cannot be on the beginners' tech forum all the time and I'm sorry to say I missed those. If that happens again, I'll PM the person.
And any time I've ever been less than cheerfully helpful to a newbie was for good reason. There is a reason we have several sticky threads in that forum, one of which says "READ BEFORE ALL ELSE". Perhaps I should change them to "READ FIRST", "READ SECOND", etc.? I mean, those stickies outline everything a newcomer should read before asking any question. I've stopped updating the Beginners' FAQ out of being too busy in real life, but it has a lot of questions that newbies still seem impelled to ask.
I try to answer politely and say "please read the READ FIRST BEFORE ALL ELSE sticky thread, it's there for a reason". It's there to save us all time in answering redundant questions. :)
Wow another reference to Kazaa! We all love Kazaa! Especially us noobs!
I think the term RTFM should never be used, there are more subtle ways to hint to people to use the manual. The way I prefer to do it is to give an answer first, to get the person on the right track (and sometimes that is just enough) and politely suggest if they need any more help, what to look for in the manual, and if it doesn't help just ask for more help.
I know it can get frustrating when people ask the same questions all the time but that doesn't excuse a RTFM just because you're pissed off, If you find yourself typing RTFM just take a step back and think before posting. Someone else will probably come up with a more friendly way to phrase it.
As MrColossal mentioned about TK,
TK, I know you like to help people and do a good job generally, but I notice too many RTFM, but you're not the only one guilty of it, I have seen it from a few others, I'd say just take a leaf out of Scorpiorus's book and don't let frustration let you down.
just remember people are at all sorts of different levels of understanding and sometimes things need to be described a little easier, just cause you know what you mean doesn't mean someone else will. And language barriers may be the cause on some occasions.
but in general I think most people are quite friendly, even TK
I'm a n00b and I need a hug.
:-X Well, I'm not the only one that feels like Noob! What has happened to manners and maybe a little understanding of what others are trying to LEARN! See, these old folk had to learn how to do math with a pencil and paper, not a calculater or computer, which means that maybe they have a great big start on you, but you will learn that when YOU become THAT age and your kids are doing Who Knows What! signed,40-tude(still)
I am going to write my feelings about newbies, which does not necesarilly implies that everybody feels the same as I do:
I allways feel quite insecure with newbies... I fear that they become something like Jodo.
I feel quite disturbed when a newbie starts to post compulsivelly... If his/her art is good, I have the feeling that he won´t be here long (Moresco/Xadhoom)).
If his art is not the best, I fear that he will remain here a lot, not taking in consideration my advise to go on working with CorelBryce (a program which the newbie domines), and keeps posting his 2-d art, which is crap, IMHO.
A n00b who don´t take into consideration to finish a game, but preffers to produce 5 or 6 at the same time.
A n00b whose first answer to my response to his demmand of C+C was: "Ok Farlander, :P"
(I think many of you know who I am talking about :P )
Eeer... I think I´m out of topic, now.
BTW, most of the times the n00bies are cool, I like to be surprised by new artists. :)
Well... This has been a confession of my feelings, but I don´t think that the AGS community is rude in its welcomes. I post this because I think that many of the veterans (More than a year of membership?) feel the same, but, as Andail said, it is one of the kindests on the net, IMHO.
When i was a n00b nobody said really nasty things to my questions. but i admit just typing RTFM does not help, maybe an explination of where to look. For example i'm looking for something like playing flics, and i look under cutscenes ( have already done that) get confused and ask the board, i would be nice if someone said there was that option.
For example that is, some people don't think of the right words for what they are thinking of , just a rough discription, (or like me they can't spell the word they are thinking of).
It is good for n00bs to show off their artwork, gives them a boost of confidence knowing they can show it to people, if one persons artwork annoys you, tell them what is wrong or ignore them, simple.
and yes some can be over ambitious, too many ideas and not enough time, if they wish to plan out loads of games let them do it, i know someone who is a real great programmer, not a n00b can work out complicated things but can never finishes a game, because they go onto the next game. But what can i say i only had one good idea in my life. (and that was what to have for lunch)
Too me there's a clear distinction between newbie and n00b. A n00b is someone who asks stupid questions, posts far too often, and generally makes a fool of themselves. A newbie is just someone who's new... Unless someone acts like a real n00b, there's no reason to treat them badly. If you're fed up with the same questions being asked repeatedly (and to be fair, how the hell are they supposed to know that the same question gets asked twice a week?), just stop visiting the tech forums. Either be nice or just don't go there at all.
I like RTFM ... but only 'cause my old man used to have a shirt that said that and he thought we (the kids) didn't know what it meant. Ahhh the memories.
But Gemmalah makes a point. A reply to a question that simply says, "RTFM STFU n00b!!" isn't in the slightest helpful. But perhaps, "RTFM ;) Read chapter 2, section B and you'll find what you need!" Something like that would be far better.
I also agree with AGA about the new guys who just mindlessly post again and again just to boost their post count. That's annoying.
Or those that can't grasp the concept of the 'Edit' feature and have 2 or 3 posts in a row in the same thread.
But I think it's fun to watch the new guys morph into non-n00bs. See them adjust to the way these forums work and flow. Some take longer than others!
Personally ... I love helping the new people out. Makes me all warm and fuzzy ;)
Cheers,
])]v[
The funniest thing, is if you say STFU and RTFM to a genuine, 100% pure n00b, they're gonna reply:
thanx, but whta deos tat mean? XOXO :) :) :)
Man Farlander... I can't believe you're gonna talk about Lorena like that! What if she finds out?!
Ahem, as the winner of Everyone's Favorite Newbie 2001, I feel inclined to give my opinion on the matter. Actually was it '01 or '02?
Here's my advice for those new to AGS:
1. Find a couple of respected people to get in good with (ie: Helm, Colossal) You can pretty much tie your name to these people through the AGS whiteboard, if you want. I insist, do NOT go to IRC to make friends. Those people are all either bots or AGS mongering whores!
2. Post on the forums as if you're opinions matter, whether or not they actually do. Pretend as if every forum poster should already know who you are (as if you've posted here or on another forum for ages), while still being considerate.
3. Let atleast two people play a demo of your game, as your witnesses, and then never work on the game ever again! The suspense will give you an edge!
Congrats, now you're an established member of AGS forums!
I don't consider myself a proper member of the AGS community and won't until I finish the game I'm making, and maybe have some people play it.
All the same I want to say that most people on the forum are friendly, thoughtful, funny and helpful, or at least one of those four things. There are a few unpleasant new people and a few old people who are unpleasant to them.
That's the way it goes, most of the AGS community is as fuzzy as the underbelly of a bush-baby.
Thankyou, and goodnight.
Quote from: MrColossal on Mon 05/01/2004 22:21:05
Man Farlander... I can't believe you're gonna talk about Lorena like that! What if she finds out?!
Lol! Yes... But she hasn´t posted compulsevely has she? ;)
Well... the most important points of my post are:
1) Most of the times newbies surprise me in the positive manner.
2) AGS is friendly in its welcomes.
I still consider myself a "Noob" in this forum, but i have to say that everybody has been really cool. I don't think there was an instance where i had a problem with anybody or anybody having a problem with me.
I'm hoping to become a permanent part of this community, and i check these forums every single day. It's addicting, and i like to see whats going on.
This has to be the friendliest forum that i've ever been a part of. There are other message boards out there, where no matter what you say, you get some smart ass taking shots at you. But here is totally different, and i have no complaints. But the treatment of noobs here has been, shall i call 'World Class'.
Thank you.
Shawn :)
Generally, I think the class of the forum (lack of flamers, n00bs) depends on the topic. These people are usually not the brightest apples in the barrel, regardless of how good they toss insults at people for no reason. That being said, there are a few here, but not a ton, because AGS is too hard for them to use, I think. I only arrived at this conclusion because I've been a regular at another forum for 3 years and NEVER seen a ONE flame.. because it's about building your own Vacuum Tube Powered Guitar Amplifier. The annoying people who end up in technical places usually leave after they realize there's no chance of them understanding the forum topic. They are the heaviest in places where they can talk about things they understand, like water, and britney spears.
Realize I'm not talking about people who are new, but rather, people who are annoying and/or stupid.
/me holds back laughter
Hummm, got lotza info from that. I now know that a "newbie" is, well, new. As to where a "n00bie" is one who is, "making the game".; trying to get ideas off of others that have more knowlege, am I close? And after this can we put some "cream & sugar" on this topic? and I am getting better at my stupid "avatar" thingy! applause! PLEASE!
Quote from: EvenWolf on Mon 05/01/2004 22:30:22
Ahem, as the winner of Everyone's Favorite Newbie 2001, I feel inclined to give my opinion on the matter. Actually was it '01 or '02?
Here's my advice for those new to AGS:
1. Find a couple of respected people to get in good with (ie: Helm, Colossal) You can pretty much tie your name to these people through the AGS whiteboard, if you want. I insist, do NOT go to IRC to make friends. Those people are all either bots or AGS mongering whores!
AGS mongering whores? How dare you. N00b! wtf lol RTFM
Edit: One small thing...I haven't used AGS in years.