http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=iraq
I feel so bad for that poor guy. I didn't even realize what was about to happen to him when I looked at that picture.
I just went to view the video excerpt but I couldn't.
I really wish people could just forget their religions and their politics and their oil and their grudges, and just get on. I mean, when it comes down to it, we're all people. We're not black people, white people, chinese people. We're not muslims, islamics, christians, athiests. We're people, and we're only those things because we've been brought up to believe we were.
Why do people keep doing this to each other?
So sad.
We should steal all Iraqs oil and kill them all. Who gives a crap about them, they are like violent dogs.
Game plan steal oil, kill people leave. Sounds good to me.
A lot of people would agree with you.
Especially those stinkin' Republicans!!!
(If you ever read Yahoo! News Forums, you too will find the previous statement funny!)
Again, what good would it do to kill them?Ã, Should we kill people to try to stop other people from killing each other?Ã, If we kill them, justified or not, we are also killers.
Both parts are making atrocities, I must say that this is the worst social-political period (11-S 2002-nowadays) I can remember.
I hope this ends soon...Ã, :P
And death idiot... control your anger... I know it's difficult, but you'll feel better (I told you by my own experience)
I must say, I would rather a world full of Americans than a world full of Iraqis.
I heard a lot of people are extremely shocked at the American treatment of Iraq POWs. I was surprised when I read that Human Rights groups were outraged that the higher members of Saddams regime, who had been involved in a lot of murder and such during his reign, were kept in solitary confinement longer than other POWs.
Firstly, I'm quite glad that these higher members of Saddams regime are being treated worse. It makes sense to me.
Second, it's a war. What do you expect? It's certainly not nice, and it's not something I would do or like to see other people do. But it's a war, and nobody ever said wars were full of hugs and kisses and love. It didn't surprise me to see these pictures. I didn't like them, but it didn't surprise me.
I also don't see or hear of American soldiers killing young Iraq civilians.
Then again, perhaps that was a breakaway group of rebels or something, and just as the Americans that tortured Iraqi POWs don't represent the face of the American Army, those Iraqi murderers were individuals who don't represent the face of Iraq. I don't know, and I can't tell because no matter where you look, all you'll find is propaganda
I don't think I'm in a position to judge any side, because I live in safe, neutral little Ireland, far from all of this trouble. But I admit openly that I tend to be extremely unsympathetic of Iraqi men. Perhaps this is because I'm female, and I dislike the way they treat Iraqi women. I don't know.
Come to think of it, that's something that's always pissed me off. When you discuss with people the way women are treated in these countries, and they say, "Oh, but you have to understand, that's their way of life." As though that makes it alright for them to treat women like that. That's the way they do things, ergo that makes it right. What?
I am so mixed up right now.
In the wise words of System of a Down....
"Modern globalization
Coupled with condemnations
Unnecessary death
Matador corporations
Puppeting your frustrations with a blinded flag
Manufacturing consent is the name of the game
The bottom line is money and nobody gives a f**k
4,000 hungry children leave us per hour from starvation
While billions are spent on bombs
Creating death showers "
That just about says it all about this trivial war and the belligerent fools who started it.
Also:
"Make love, not war."
QuoteWe are German, we are French, Italian, American, Russian and many other nationalities. We are Christians, Jews, Moslems and Hindus. We are black, we are white; we are a communtity of so many differences, so complex but yet so simple. We do not need to have wars!
Michael Jackson, 2002the world is sick.
Surprsingly enough, I have to say that this isn't much different from what the Americans did to the Iraqis, and thus, as shocking as it is, it is hypocrisy to call it sub-human.
Unlike what those fucking Hammas dogs did to the remains of six Israeli soldiers today. Fucking sub-human apes. I hope there's already a rocket with their name on it.
I don't actually know any Iraqi men personally, and that what I have heard about them is probably mostly propaganda, and that if I met an Iraqi person I would probably find them to be completely nice and lovely.
Therefore, I cannot say I hate Iraqi people; I hate the Iraqi way of life.
But I was hating it way before the war. All those Republicans are just jumping on the goddamn bandwagon!!! I also hate the Saudi Arabian way of life.
And the Palestinian way of life.
And Michael Jackson! Because he contradicted everything I said in my first post!!!
And Ryam Baco's way of life.
using violence against violence will never work. people will never understand that, because they're all much too dumb and selfish.
Nor will hugging those who use violence, but people will never understand that, because they're all much too dumb and blind.
The ultimate dillema, eh? The truth is, both solutions are bad. I just seem to believe mine is the lesser evil.
(EDIT: this post was originally aimed to Rusalka Clarke, before the flooding ;))
You're right, it's a war and this things happen in wars...
but never such a savage war has been so covered by media... There have been more savage wars? Sure, I remember a man proudly showing a cut head in Liberia... In the old Yugoslavia things like that happened... And we could go on, Côte D'Ivory, Nigeria, Somalia, Filipinas, Colombia...
I don't know if it's good that we just "care" of this US-Iraqi war... Maybe it's going to be a good start for being more sensitive about wars...
But I must say (even falling in risk of being flamed) thanks for your honesty for saying "I am a woman, and must make an effort for feeling empathy for the iraqians"
I've recently discussed with girls blaming America, not just Bush or the DISGUSTING activities of some of their members, but the whole country saying things like "It's an fascist country full of nazis" and things like that... the worst of all is that this girls "imagine" that this islamic countries are something like a "heaven"...
It is time to put things in place... ladies, America is a better place to life for you than Nigeria, Somalia, Afghanistan or Iran... America is a democratic place were if a moronic president is elected, he is dumped in the next voting... If some bastards treat the POWs badly, the media discovers it and the problem is soluted... Of course it's not perfect, but it's time to make a sensible critic of it and not some zealotish things I am seeing lately...
If we kill everyone of the Iraquis, the iraquis cannot kill us.
Gearge Bush is a retard, If you waste lives going into Iraq then when you are in there do something productive, like kill people, steal stuff. Both the canidates for president are monkeys that poop their pants, I hate both of them. I hate all Iraquis, most americans,and most hippies. Well I don't hate hippies, cause I do not know what they did to me.
But using violence against those who hug will work fine.
Which is why hugging isn't an option.
I just thought of an example in an MSN conversation I'm having.
Every society has a group of insane bastards. Even the most 'sane' of societies.
The Irish Sinn Feiners/Republicans
The Spanish ETA
The American Fundamentalist Christians
Pretty much every Fundamentalist Group in Existence
What we're seeing in the news is a group of fundamentalist islamics that a lot of people believe represent all of Iraq. Perhaps they do. Perhaps they don't. At the moment, with all the propaganda flying all over the place, it's hard to tell. But I don't think they do.
Although I still don't like the Iraqi way of life.
I'm with Farlander on this one.
We've had savage wars before. Vietnam, WWII, etc. Hell, in Vietnam soldiers would rape and pillage innocent villages just cause they were vietnamese..
This shit happens in every war.
War=Death. Ergo, entering a war=entering death. You go into war or declare it, you might as well face that there is going to be death. Any kind of death. Accidental, intentional, and sadistic. Fact of life. We're humans. We have emotions. Sometimes they make you do crazy things, even non-human things.
again, this has happened in thousands of wars. The only reason THIS is such a big deal, is because of the fucking media corporations making "breaking news" reports every time an iraqi shits in a hole.
I could go on, but I think you get my point.
QuoteI hate all Iraquis, most americans,and most hippies. Well I don't hate hippies, cause I do not know what they did to me
Ha ha ha.
I must say, I would rather a world full of Americans than a world full of Iraqis.
Oh jesus. Right. Let's choose between stupid and stupid.
Either way, we have chosen "stupid".
Revenge, somehow, can be always explained better than the reason that led to it. Yet, cutting off heads cannot be explained in any way. If we'd take off name tags, such as "Americans" and "Israelis", opinions would be more fair, I guess. One family decides that another family's father is a bad man. Whole family takes guns and goes to other family's yard to kill him and ransack the house. And they're damn surprised when other family fights back.
What the hell are Americans doing in Iraq, anyway? They live at the other side of the globe! Want to help? Send food and first aid! Fund schools! hospitals!
Donate stuff.
"I do not like Iraqi lifestyle, so let's go and kill some of them and show the light through darkness"
What's this? A crusade?
If they had problems with one particular bad man, what are intelligence and secret service people for? Taking someone out without bombarding whole cities cannot be that difficult. Especially for such rich country. And it comes cheaper. And if it was not about one man, game is fair.
Just... why are people playing so deadly games?
Damn, if I could, I'd pack my bags and take off to another solar system. No sense in this universe.
It makes me very sad to hear about whats happening to my countrymen, and your countrymen, in Iraq. Who's so sick to film a beheading? good god, he has a family! I cant click that link...it'll kill me. this tourture sickens my soul
which is partyl why when I hear of the american tourturing, I feel even more sick. I hear these stories all the time, but they happen with other countries, and we shake our heads and go "tisk tisk...good thing America doesnt do that! we;re the good guys!" and here we go.
I think, more often then not, the USA is the good guys
there is nothing good about tourture. be it a few people, or more.
these people are not americans. or at least not part in my america. In Panda's American, I dont care who you goddamn are. you're still a human. Iraqi, Brazilian, American...you're a human, and are treated as such. There's a difference between a 4 star hotel, and getting freaking food and clothes.
If there's no sense in this universe, than another solar system won't solve your problem. :-p
But you hold some good points. We didn't have to bombard Iraq with all our troops.. But good ol' Bush, the Texan he is, likes to do everything big and grand. The American Way! Sometimes I'm ashamed to be an American.
But then again, America is better off than alot of countries. And I'm happy I'm here and not in some third world country.
It never ceases to amaze me that people are continually suprised about the shit that happens as a result of war.
So a few prisoners were tormented ... big frickin' deal.Ã, It's happened in EVERY war EVER waged throughout time.Ã, Why (oh why) does this suprise anybody?
A bunch of desperate terrorists capture a civilian and decapitate him.Ã, This sucks ... but this is what terrorists do.Ã, They don't possess the strength/orgranization to fight in the open, so they resort to pointless shit like this ...
It's similar to my thoughts about how people are STILL suprised that the President (or any politician) lies.
Now we'll lose more American lives trying to track down five hooded cowards who beheaded an American civilian in Iraq.
Here's a question ... why in the holy hell was an American civilian looking for work in Iraq?
I feel bad for him and his family but he HAD to know the risks.
Now before you all think I'm heartless, let me clarify.
I am not happy about all this crap that is going on ... I'm just not suprised by it either.
Oh, and the best is still coming: There isn't just Iraq. There's lot's of "iraq's" and "insanity" groups out there.
People like these suicide bombers, born to die.
Those who cannot be made afraid by ANY bombings, and
who's violence can be only FEED with violence from enemies.
No country could fight them all. It's very stupid be make yourself target of everyone else who is just seeking for a smallest excuse to kill you. Somehow, I think that Americans won't have a good sleep for few next centuries... And this really sucks. I'm not an american, far away from there, but they are still human beings, just like me. So I feel sorry for them. And for Iraqis, too.
If, let's say - my neighbor decides that my father is a bad man and comes and kills him, wonder what? I'd castrate him with kitchen knife and I really don't think I'd feel sorry about it! Would you?
Maybe I sound stupid and like just woken up, but it seems that media is having rough time to separate bunch of fools to the sides of devils and angels.
Quote from: InCreator on Wed 12/05/2004 00:05:01
I must say, I would rather a world full of Americans than a world full of Iraqis.
"I do not like Iraqi lifestyle, so let's go and kill some of them and show the light through darkness"
What's this? A crusade?
I don't think Rusalka's post meant that... It's more like "They treat women awful and I have problems to feel empathy for them"
That means she does not agree with some things that are happening... but she can't feel so bad about that with some other things... I can perfectly understand her...
just because it DOES happen Darth doesnt mean it SHOULD
Did the Americans torture people in gulf war I? if they did, I didnt know anything about, and neither does the rest of the press.
Did WE do the torturing in grenada? serbia? bosina? NO. That was other people
if we are going to take the moral high ground, which is part of the basis of this war, WE CANNOT DO THAT. More of our people are going to die because of this.
Politicians lie. doesnt mean they should. we elect our leaders because we think they can be honest and lead. when they dont, in a democracy, damn it, we should be outraged.
Im not as old as some of you here, (17), and may not be as politcally cynical yet.
when you're fighting a war to claim the godamn hearts and minds, you cannot torture people.
Increator: choosing between stupid and stupid? I understand what you mean, but I have to disagree on this point. As a female, and as a person who enjoys my freedom and my right to education and my right to live life as I want, and my right to freedom of expression and my choice of career, and my freedom of sexuality... I choose america over iraq.
Both sides may be hypocrites in this war. But overall-- WOAH, GIANT SPIDER ON THE WALL IN FRONT OF ME.
AWESOME!!!
Quotewhen you're fighting a war to claim the godamn hearts and minds, you cannot torture people.
Of course! Otherwise, you are as low as the enemy you claimed to be. Even lower, you're a liar, too, so you deserve double punishment.
Of course, soliders went through hell on earth to capture POWs and they may feel really angry, scared and everything, but violence against unarmed people is something that they went to finish, not continue. This is not a prize they earned and can enjoy now.
Maybe, media does something useful too. But It could be more useful, if media could prevent all of this, instead of getting front page material.
Quote from: panda isnt a ninja on Wed 12/05/2004 00:24:39
just because it DOES happen Darth doesnt mean it SHOULD
I
totally agree.Ã, It's sad.
QuoteDid the Americans torture people in gulf war I? if they did, I didnt know anything about, and neither does the rest of the press.
Did WE do the torturing in grenada? serbia? bosina? NO. That was other people
The Iraqi army (in full retreat) was hiding amongst the thousands of civilians fleeing the carnage of the first Gulf War.Ã, The US military strafed the road and killed them all indiscriminantly.Ã, Tragic?Ã, Yes indeed.Ã, Part of war?Ã, Yes.Ã, Just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen ...
QuotePoliticians lie. doesnt mean they should. we elect our leaders because we think they can be honest and lead. when they dont, in a democracy, damn it, we should be outraged.
I couldn't agree more ... this actually helps prove my point!Ã, Politicians lie and cheat to get elected making you think they're honest and trust worthy.Ã, Once they get the office, they show their true grit and yet people are still suprised when this happens over and over and over again ...
Quotewhen you're fighting a war to claim the godamn hearts and minds, you cannot torture people.
One of the aims (jokes) about the Vietnam was was winning the hearts and minds of the people ... this is why they took suspected VC insurgents from the civilian population up into helicopters and threw them out ...
I agree with all your points ... my point was that no matter how civilized we think we've become, this same shit will happen in war.Ã, It's a sad fact ...
When the human soldier is put into a combat situation their survival instinct takes over and they basically devolve back to animal instincts.Ã, Kill or be killed ... and in that state, this kind of shit WILL happen.
I wish it weren't so ...
I agree completely with Darth.
yup
then I suppose Im naive. everytime it happens, Im shocked.
when people become apathetic to this sort of thing, we can never change it
Panda - I wasn't at ALL trying to suggest you were naive!Ã, I think it's perfectly okay to be sickened, hurt, disgusted with shit like this ... I sure am.
I'm just not suprised by it anymore.
And yes, apathy is dangerous ... very dangerous.
Well... as an insider let me tell you what I know.
Many Iraqis live in dumps... I don't mean figuratively... They built little shacks in the middle of dumps and live there... Scrounge around in the dumps to find things to fix, and sell. I work with these guys... we sign a bunch on every day to do work around our camp... They get paid 5 dollars a day. While that seems like very little to you and me, you have to figure their average electric bill is 1 US dollar a month. We don't treat them like slaves, in fact, we have gotten to know many of them pretty well. Every once in awhile though you have to be hard with them just to get them to work, as they sometimes like to not work (but they still get the same pay)... We have to have our weapons with the amunition in them, not to threaten them, but on the off chance we have to protect ourselves.
Most of these guys just want to make decent money and take care of their families. They want shelter, food, and things of that nature. Just like everyone. We try to give them that.
The only thing about these guys that I just can't understand is when we get attacked my mortars, we have to yell at them to get them to come into shelter, they actually stand up and look for where they hit. The following is an exact quote between myself and one of the workers, during an attack.
"Mister, mister!" *points at sky* "Look bombs!"
*Me just inside the bunker*
"No shit sherlock, get the fuck in here."
Again, most of the people realize that we are just here to keep the place stable while their own government sets up. They know that we don't want to occupy them. One has even said to me.
"Bad guys, no good, they kill women and children. American, very good, they help, and pay good."
In their opinions of the whole scandal, yes, they are not happy with it, but they also know from experience that not EVERYONE is like those soldiers, just as we know not EVERYONE is like those sunsabitches that are out there, taking potshots from the shadows, and murdering civilians...
Quote from: Cale on Tue 11/05/2004 23:11:38
I must say, I would rather a world full of Americans than a world full of Iraqis.
That doesn't really make sense. If we were ALL iraqis, then we wouldn't be fighting over anything, because we'd all agree.
And if there WERE civil wars blah blah blah, it's not like they don't happen in america/germany/australia anyway...
This might sound purely sick, but does anyone have a link to the FULL footage? I don't
want to see a guy beheaded so to speak, but I've seen the awful stuff the americans have done to the iraqis, and I'm interested (not fascinated) to see how they reacted in person...
I couldn't click that link to watch that clip. I know the sight would just get stuck on my retina.
I don't want to be blunted when it comes to this sort of violence.
Why I ask myself? Humans did this. I'm a part of the humanity, members of my race did this, I should take part of the consequences.
I'm just tired of it all. I feel like an old grandmother who just can't understand why everybody is resorting to violence all the time.
I just don't believe in wars. I don't believe that any dictatorship in the world (and by golly, if you think Iraq and middle-east is the only place to find dictatorships, look again....they're everywhere. Not all of them have enough oil to become interesting) should be ockupied and drawn into lengthy and costly wars.
Wars is not the answer.
I'm not anti-american because of personal reasons. It's not like I have Iraqi relatives, and a whole bunch of american enemies.
I too would prefer a world dominated by Americans rather than by Iraqis.
I wouldn't go to America this summer if I hated everything about that country.
Of course, the only americans I've spoken to in reality have been those brave enough to come over to Europe, and they have in general already started to look at their home country in a more objective perspective.
So what do I know? I'm just a pacifistic elf-man, newly awakened from my hibernation deep in the icy northen wastes.
I will now return to my tree-house to muse on the beauty of Swedish maidens, and leave all the war-threads alone in the future.
I was quite disappointed when Barcik said:
QuoteSurprsingly enough, I have to say that this isn't much different from what the Americans did to the Iraqis, and thus, as shocking as it is, it is hypocrisy to call it sub-human.
This isn't much different?? I'm not in any way condoning what the American soldiers did to Iraqi POW's (and I shouldn't have to even say that, it should be the norm), but it is very different. Americans were humiliating the POWs (as far as I know, I could be wrong, and please correct me). The Iraqi soldiers DECAPITATED somebody. And not a soldier. But a civilian. A businessman.
Personally, I don't think know is the right time to be establishing businesses in Iraq. It is still a very volatile situation there, and to do anthing there without being a soldier is suicide. It was a tragedy what happened (both scenarios).
I'd watch the tape but I'm not sure I wanna see him get decapitated. How gory is it??
Raggit: It doesn't show anything
Terran: We did humilate them, but from what I saw and read, a few were beaten to death aswell.
Quote from: Barcik on Tue 11/05/2004 23:27:50
Surprsingly enough, I have to say that this isn't much different from what the Americans did to the Iraqis, and thus, as shocking as it is, it is hypocrisy to call it sub-human.
Unlike what those fucking Hammas dogs did to the remains of six Israeli soldiers today. Fucking sub-human apes. I hope there's already a rocket with their name on it.
FACT 1: Calling the Iraqi beheading a "sub-human" action is hypocrisy.
FACT 2: Labelling Hamas' actions as "sub-human" is not a hypocrisy.
FACT 3: To simultaniously believe the above two facts is the real hypocrisy.
Let's be realistic here: you can't say one thing is a hypocrisy and then say a similar situation is not.
It's like saying "You're drinking alcohol?? That shit is bad for you! Don't touch alcohol, man, whatever you do because it's addictive and will kill you! And if you believe it's not addictive, then you're a hypocrite in denial!
(pause) Man, I need a smoke!"
As for the beheading, there's a lesson to be learnt and IMO it's this: for every bad thing that happens in a war, another bad thing will happen as an opposite reaction, only a little more extreme. Then another opposite reaction happens, then another, then another, until we're so far ahead of what happened with the violence and the carnage that we don't know where we started. We end up losing everything that made us innocent in the first place (and by this, I'm talking about both sides of the war).
Neither side wants to break the cycle, which is why I think we should learn to not take part in it. Bush once said, "You're either for us or against us." Bullshit! I'm not for your stinking, scumbucket, shitstain government as much as I'm not for the stinking, scumbucket, shitstain ideology of Iraqi rebels. Go fight you're own war without me. Go ahead, and accuse me of sitting on the fence, Mr Bush, cause I will sit here happily and condemn both sides of this war. Go fight your own fight.
This whole thing started with September 11 and now it has nothing to do with September 11 anymore.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 12/05/2004 00:18:15
Now before you all think I'm heartless, let me clarify.
I am not happy about all this crap that is going on ... I'm just not suprised by it either.
Mandarb,
I have to agree - this isn't really shocking, or a surprise. This kind of barbarism, on both sides, has always happened. IT'S CALLED WARFARE for a reason. It's not nice, it's not pretty, and the object is to quash the other side using extreme, deadly force. So things are gonna get messy. We're all human, we're all different, and we all suffer from sins of pride and foolishness. This kind of stuff has happened between Christians and Muslims forever; look at the crusades. I'm sure events like that video happened in more frequent and barbaric means, but since they didn't have EXTREME mass media to spread the word, the world only learned of that kind of behavior on a global scale when historical publishing became available the world over. The world has ALWAYS been this horriffic and barbaric..... that's all I can say, and I'm not surprised. Don't think you can waltz into Iraq, on a mission of peace and rebuliding with good intentions, and MAYBE end up killed by some crazy who doesn't give a shit about your intentions, just your nationality and religion. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Bt
Amidst all the brutality and horror of war, I can still laugh about it all:
http://www.realstupidnews.com/porn_shortage.html
http://www.realstupidnews.com/us_economy.html
http://www.realstupidnews.com/roadmap_to_peace.html
QuoteThis kind of stuff has happened between Christians and Muslims forever
This one's for Blackthrone:
http://www.realstupidnews.com/war_between.html
DG,
That's brillaint maddness! I'm about to start my quest for Nirvana right now!
Bt
Quote from: DGMacphee on Wed 12/05/2004 15:20:45
Quote from: Barcik on Tue 11/05/2004 23:27:50
Surprsingly enough, I have to say that this isn't much different from what the Americans did to the Iraqis, and thus, as shocking as it is, it is hypocrisy to call it sub-human.
Unlike what those fucking Hammas dogs did to the remains of six Israeli soldiers today. Fucking sub-human apes. I hope there's already a rocket with their name on it.
FACT 1: Calling the Iraqi beheading a "sub-human" action is hypocrisy.
FACT 2: Labelling Hamas' actions as "sub-human" is not a hypocrisy.
FACT 3: To simultaniously believe the above two facts is the real hypocrisy.
Let's be realistic here: you can't say one thing is a hypocrisy and then say a similar situation is not.
It's like saying "You're drinking alcohol?? That shit is bad for you! Don't touch alcohol, man, whatever you do because it's addictive and will kill you! And if you believe it's not addictive, then you're a hypocrite in denial! (pause) Man, I need a smoke!"
Ain't we contradictory beings? :P With no recent known case of abuse by the IDF, I allowed myself to say this. But, yet, I do see your point. I take my words back.
QuoteAs for the beheading, there's a lesson to be learnt and IMO it's this: for every bad thing that happens in a war, another bad thing will happen as an opposite reaction, only a little more extreme. Then another opposite reaction happens, then another, then another, until we're so far ahead of what happened with the violence and the carnage that we don't know where we started. We end up losing everything that made us innocent in the first place (and by this, I'm talking about both sides of the war).
This is very, very, theoretical. The same can be said the other way. If one bad thing in a war goes by without a reaction from the other side, the next attack will be worse. Weighed against one another, these two extremes of the same scale are equal. Equal, and fictional. War is not a hypothetical case. The are things which happen that are outside the norm (whether it is the one you mentioned or the one I did). Indeed, as with most general cases, this fits, but just loosely. Sometimes, for example, a good and effective blow will destroy the opponent's ability to react. Where is the worse next vengance step then?
And, by the way, I agree with Darth-Mandrab. These things are part of human nature, and not surprising.
Oh I agree, it is a part of nature and it's surprising. And I do see your point that in some cases, things happen outside the norm. But in this case, I feel it's a little different.
Consider this: why did terrorists crash planes into the WTC? What were their reasons? I'm sure terrorists don't attack without reason. I'm sure it was reactionary to something. Same can be said about a many number of instances, such as the Madrid bombing or the recent beheading. All were reactionary and with some reasoning (granted, not the best reasoning, but reasoning, nevertheless). And in the same light, the Bush administration has also retaliated in similar ways. It's like each side is trying to one-up the other.
Quote from: Cale on Tue 11/05/2004 23:11:38
I also don't see or hear of American soldiers killing young Iraq civilians.
You may need to look a bit deeper then Yahoo news to find America doing wrong.
Everyone-
I understand this war is hella sensitive but we have discussed just as difficult and opinionated topics as this with little to no bullshit or name calling. Please keep this very important subject somewhat respectable and at least take the time to read all that has been said and really think about it before all that blood rushes to your head and you start posting with your ass.
(Not pointed at anyone specific. This thread has done fairly well at discussing everything just please keep in mind.)
Quote from: Cale on Tue 11/05/2004 23:11:38I also don't see or hear of American soldiers killing young Iraq civilians.
I can virtually guarantee that there are a lot of Iraqi civilians being killed on a daily basis.Ã, I've already seen a report of a van shot to shit by American soldiers that had a woman, a kid, and two old men in it.Ã, Only the woman survived, and spent the night lying with her dead relatives 'cause she was too afraid to move.
These reports will surface in the years following the military action.Ã, Sure a few will leak out from time to time (freedom of the press and all that shit) but the military still censors a LOT of the information coming from the war.
Again, with war comes atrocity.Ã, Why did the U.S. troops light up the van?Ã, Why did the van continue to approach after warning shots had been fired?Ã, The questions go on and on ...
Quote from: Sylpher on Thu 13/05/2004 01:24:42You may need to look a bit deeper then Yahoo news to find America doing wrong.
If there's one thing I've learned (being a student of history) is that for everything you hear about, there are 10 things you don't hear about.Ã, Yahoo! News might report factual information ... but there's always more that even they don't know about.
QuoteConsider this: why did terrorists crash planes into the WTC? What were their reasons? I'm sure terrorists don't attack without reason. I'm sure it was reactionary to something. Same can be said about a many number of instances, such as the Madrid bombing or the recent beheading. All were reactionary and with some reasoning (granted, not the best reasoning, but reasoning, nevertheless). And in the same light, the Bush administration has also retaliated in similar ways. It's like each side is trying to one-up the other.
This is a good point ... everybody seems to justify what they're doing as a 'reprisal' for another action by the enemy.Ã, It's been going on for so long I doubt anybody remembers what started it all.
In the immortal words of Steven Pearcy (RATT) "
'round and 'round ... what goes around comes around"
One day, one side will have to realize the downward spiral this metality has caused.
I only hope it's not too late ...
Of course death, toture, killing and the like are to be expected when people go to war. But this is a war that should never have been started in the first place. The reasons for this war were, in my opinion, extremely flimsy ones (it's been almost a personal vendetta for George Bush Jr.) I personally hate all wars (although I can't really think of anyone who could LOVE them), especially pointless ones, and this is one of THE most pointless, selfish (oil) and contradictory (US gave them the weapons in the first place) wars in the past fifty-sixty odd years. My point is that war is a disgusting, volatile thing and disgusting and volatile things happen in war, but it makes it even more disgusting and volatile when these things happen in a war that should not have happened. I mean, sure Iraq was in a terrible way but do you really think the US had explored ALL possible solutions? Was it even the US's place to step in? Perhaps it was because it was the US who had given the "weapons of mass destruction" to begin with. And the images of torture and decapitation further cement the idea that this war should not have gone ahead.
Feel free to analyse, pull apart and find mass errors in the heap of crap I just wrote. Just remeber that most of it is just my opinion.