Violent videogame justice

[Afflict]

With every new violent title a discussion of this sort pops up. Be it inspired by the game, by the people suing the game, the people blaming the game or simply the people banning the game.

I have to say that any individual that cannot identify the difference between killing hi res polygon models and real people should be locked up and taken away to the looney bin. I have recently played a really addictive game which I played about 4-5 times purely because it was humorous and visually appealing. The animation was awesome etc.

http://www.doodie.com/anger_management.php

It's called whack your boss. The point is I have no urge to whack my boss, heck I am my boss. So that wont make sense But this was amazingly to much fun.

Anyway let me go on to say how many people has the game Hitman inspired to become hitmen? How many people have enrolled to become specialized agents like splintercell since playing Splintercell? In all fairness shows like the Sopranos are more violent than the games we play, and yet no one is running around accusing the show of teaching people how to whack each other. Screaming "TONY made me do it TONY made me do it"  why because there is no such hype around tv shows making kids kill each other, yet since the first killing blamed to a video game, this has become an uprising trend. KIDS blame anything other than themselves, let's face it when we were children any excuse that sounded remotely valid in our little brains, we blurted it out to try and avoid the hiding or punishment of our lives.

Even games with a positive influence like lets say Capitalism hasn't influenced me to even remotely start another business or implement some of the teachings from the game. Heck even Cashflow hasn't gotten that into me yet (And I play these games quite often)

I can go on and on through more examples but why?

The point remains when you can't differentiate between reality and virtual "reality" then you my friend need to go to a little white padded cell, or take really strong sedative medication.   

[LimpingFish]

Evenwolf, I said Manhunt 2 is an exploitative and obvious ploy to profit from the fact that we live in a society that believes we are unable to differentiate between the real and the unreal.

Where people will argue that, yes, people can be influenced by what they see and hear.

Where someone can murder and eat his family and claim that playing Max Payne one to many times made him do it. And have society take him seriously.

Where parents wilfully buy Manhunt/Scarface/Reservoir Dogs for their 12 year old sons, because they're "just video games".

Where publishers and developers will deliberately target an audience not yet mature enough (not by society's standards, but by the standards of common sense) to be viewing such material.

It is a product that uses society's already prejudiced and uneducated view of video games to generate revenue, by playing on those very points you claim censorship creates. It uses negativity as a basis for marketing.

I don't say Manhunt 2 corrupts, I say Manhunt 2 is corrupt.

This is not censoring someone's right to express themselves, it's censoring someone's attempt to exploit.

EDIT: If this is about freedom of speech, in the US at least, nobody was stopping Take 2 from releasing Manhunt 2 uncut with an AO (Adults Only) rating. Of course, this would impact dramatically on profits, hence Take 2's temporary shelving of the game.

But if this is a game meant for adults, then what's Take 2's problem?

[blueskirt]

EDIT: If this is about freedom of speech, in the US at least, nobody was stopping Take 2 from releasing Manhunt 2 uncut with an AO (Adults Only) rating. Of course, this would impact dramatically on profits, hence Take 2's temporary shelving of the game.

But if this is a game meant for adults, then what's Take 2's problem?

This is where it become problematic. Even if Take 2 wanted to release it with an AO rating and the dramatically reduced profits, they couldn't even do so as Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony forbid third party publishers to release AO rated products on their consoles.

[voh]

Not to mention the fact that many stores won't even stock AO-rated items.

[blueskirt]

This is not even in question here. Even if the stores wouldn't mind having it on their shelves, or even if they decided to sell it online directly from their website, the AO rating completly prevent them from releasing their game on Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft's consoles.

[LUniqueDan]

Hum.... I'm not naturally for any censorship but :

Violence as a symptom of something else...

Hum... No.

Is it me or in the last 30 years any attempt to solve X question always turn on to : It's only the symptom of Y : Where Y is bigger, deeper, wider, more cultural, more insidious, more inconscient, more  anything else. But always conceptual and impossible to directly touch / legiferate / modified on the concrete world.

The reallity is, in that case, that our societies violence level came from 10's of factors including free violences from some video games. The fact that other factors play roles (name your favorites here), are not an argument to avoid a possible action
against one of the constituent factor. I do agree that a local ban of 1 video game are not a miracle answer. But it's a part of an answer.

LUnique"There is no Miracle answer anyway"Dan

[Redwall]

Erm, the argument was that violent entertainment (and violent video games in particular and Manhunt to be even more particular) are a symptom (or, I suppose a less judgemental term would be "manifestation" or even "result"/"effect" -- the point is that it comes after the problem, not before) of a cultural obsession with violence.

There isn't a concrete cure, you're right, because it's not a concrete problem. It's a problem with people and only people can solve it -- by changing themselves. We can't do that. There is no quick fix for this.

That may sound depressing/cynical/avoidant/whatever... but, to bring up a much more extreme example, consider the War on Drugs. We've spent how many years and how many dollars and how many lives trying to stop the symptoms of drug abuse -- illegal drug trafficking -- and (at least according to the figures I've seen) we've barely made a scratch in the drug industry. From what I've read (which is admittedly probably biased and perhaps therefore unreliable) rehab facilities and similarly-aimed efforts have much more of an effect than all the arrests, stings, etc. made by law enforcement.

Obviously it's not so simple with violence, because there's no one obvious "cause" -- but that's my point. Drugs have one easy "cause" and fighting that doesn't even help. How can we seriously think that banning video games or any violent entertainment will have any significant effect on a violence-obsessed culture?

[TerranRich]

Anyway let me go on to say how many people has the game Hitman inspired to become hitmen? How many people have enrolled to become specialized agents like splintercell since playing Splintercell?

Afflict, I can tell you this: After playing Tomb Raider: Legacy, I've been inspired to don short shorts, buy some guns, put my hair in braids, get implants, and roam around old tombs looking for treasures. I've even killed a tiger or two.


But in all seriousness, after playing a violent video game (which I do rarely), like GTA, I actually feel better. Mainly because I've let off a LOT of steam. I can't tell you the number of times I've been stuck in traffic in real life and said to myself "I can't wait until I fire up GTA and crash into idiotic drivers and pedestrians!"

That doesn't mean I'm going to eventually hit cars and pedestrians recklessly in real life. It means that I use the video game as an outlet for my anger and frustration, and I'm sensible enough to not be violent in real life.

[blueskirt]

Maybe Take 2 isn't pushing the video game limits, maybe they are just trying to level with the limit in the other medias.

Hollywood can produce movies like Hostel and Saw, and the oriental cinema produced samurai and ninja flicks with people getting their limbs and heads chopped off and blood pumped at the rate of firehose in the direction of the camera. Both ended in the cinema, both ended in the blockbusters' shelves, and some of them became classics and cults movies. Same thing with porn movie, they all end up in the adult section of the blockbusters and the sex shops, without any lost profits.

Comics books and manga can have as much nudity, sex and violence too. You've got some manga that often feature both at the same time, with samurai chopping each others into slices, spiced with some gratuitous sex scenes in between. It's also the same with european and american comics industry. Frank Miller come to my mind here, with his Sin City and Hardboiled. Yet, all of those end up in comics and manga shops, yet again without any loss in their profits.

Cartoons? Is there anything animes or South Park haven't done? And these both end up on the cartoons channels next to the Simpsons, Futurama and King of the Hill.

Books? Now I don't really know much about the book industry, but you can write on both subjects, and as long you can find a publishers, you can get your books in the library shelves. Anybody remember reading the Rats books series back in high school? The edition who published this was specialized in publishing that kind of stuff IIRC.

But if you make the mistake of making a video game with too much blood, too much violence or porn with crappy looking vectorized characters, you'll be accused of corrupting the youth and nobody will put your game on their shelves. Careless of the fact that the video games demography keep on getting older.

Maybe it's simply Take 2 who are trying to get too close to the other medias' limit while the video game media is still in its infancy and regarded as something for kids only, not for a broad spectrum of ages. Regarding the comparison between Manhunt 2 and child porn, were Take 2 to make a game that involve child pornography, racism, antisemitism or ethnic cleansing propaganda, I think we would react the same way as if one of the previous media I listed above did the same.

Regarding the symptom/cause argument, every generations tried to find a scapegoat for all that was wrong in the youth of today. It has been rock and roll music that pushed teenagers to rebel from their parents authority, those immoral Elvis's pelvic thrusts and Johnny Cash that corrupted the mind of the teenages girls, comic books with Batman and Robin sleeping in the same bed, motorcycle, tattoo, Dungeon and Dragon that turned kids into satanists, rock, punk, metal and gangsta rap music, horror and violent movies, Harry Potter, Marilyn Manson, goth culture, GTA and all the violent video games...

And it never worked. Every generations will have its bullies, its punks and its screwed up kids, kids who'll have been badly raised, kids who's parents were missing, beating them or too busy working to watch what their kids did or who never had a good and serious discussion about sex, drug, violence, what was right and what was wrong in this world, kids who'd need a good kick in the butt to put them back on the right track, kids with parents too laxist, or simply hopeless kids who are already lost causes, no matter how many time their parents will try. Ban violent games and they'll simply find something else to fill that hole until they get bored and decide to pass to the acts.

Personally, I prefer to have these kids relieving their stress and frustration and living their slums fantasies confortably sitting in their room playing GTA rather than having them in the streets and screwing their life out of boredom or pressures.

[m0ds]

Thanks for all the great replies! I have been reading but have not had the time to respond yet, but I will soon. But I doubt I can reply to everyone's points! :p good stuff

[big brother]

Maybe this isn't totally off-topic, but along the lines of video games pushing the limits:

http://www.honestgamers.com/systems/content.php?review_id=4775&game_id=21487&console_id=13

Yeah, they're 3d models and no one is technically getting hurt... but if we replace simulated murders with another illegal act (in this case, rape), does the argument still hold?

I realize it's inconsistent, but I'm the first to admit that the link I posted disturbed me slightly more than anything I read or saw about Manhunt 2.

Besides, the violence in the game looks cheesy (Rockstar games tend to fall on the lower end of a system's graphics technology anyways). Sneaking up behind someone and pulling out one of their vertebrae with a pair of pliers? Give me a break.

That being the case, I don't think Rockstar can hide behind the fact it's "only a game", especially in today's social climate.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Now that's just fucked up.  That's all there is to it.

[Redwall]

I think a rape simulator is about as equally fucked up as Manhunt, and as long as kids can't buy it and adults know what they're getting I think they should be allowed to sell it. (There's legal fake-rape porn, isn't there? Or am I mistaken? I really don't care to try to find out...)

[Domino]

I can't believe that they made Manhunt 2, the first one, in my opinion sucked ass and was boring as hell.

[MrColossal]

That being the case, I don't think Rockstar can hide behind the fact it's "only a game", especially in today's social climate.

Then movie makers, poets, authors, artists, singers, songwriters, rappers, sculpters, etc can't "hide" behind "it's only a 'medium of choice'!"

When do you draw the line?

[voh]

Maybe this isn't totally off-topic, but along the lines of video games pushing the limits:

<etc...>

Oh my god, ahahaha! That review made me laugh so damn hard it's not normal

Though disgusted? No. Surprised? Not at all. Fucked up? Sure! Something I'm going to download/purchase? Hell no! Still grinning at the review? Awww yeah

I'm just highly amused at all the hubbub Manhunt is creating (again), as well as carefully apprehensive at how this plays out. If violent(?) games are banned, where do we draw the NEW line? Are we going to ban Doom as well? Are we going to ban Wolfensteijn alltogether (rather than just in Germany)?

Are we going to ban every single game which involves shooting someone? Everything which shows blood? Everything where pain is either obvious or implied? Do we need to get our games underground?

Man, this is almost enough to get me to make the goriest, nastiest (though rape-free, of course) and most evil adventure game ever.

Bloodbath: The Disemboweled Death Orgy! Oh man, I can't wait!

[TerranRich]

Sign me up for a copy!

[Redwall]

Are we going to ban every single game which involves shooting someone?

Shush, the Germans will accuse you of stealing their ideas. (Cheap shot, yeah.)

[InCreator]

This is stupid. UK may ban whatever they want, but there's no point in this.

Manhunt? Uncensored violence was what made this game so controversial. Psychological layout was what made it actually exciting. A hammer cracking into a skull in a dark alleyway. I'd say that I am getting kick out of it indeed. Alot.

But that isn't what makes the game interesting: glass pieces, small clubs and ordinary tools are not important because they're violent, but because they express your characters fear and weakness against enemies. You don't have a minigun and full armor vest. If you're seen, enemies will gather and kick your brains out. You must hide, sneak, run.

This is keeping me in constant excitment and fear throughout the game. And what's better reward than sneak behind that bastard that has beaten me way too many level restarts in a row  and strangle him with plastic bag? Take this, sucker... Also, manhunt sports one of the most realistic hand-to-hand combat system seen in computer game in last 10 years, at least.

I don't actually see Manhunt as something exceptionally gory or violent. "Nightmare on Elm street" (the movie) for example wasn't banned anywhere. And everybody has seen it, or some of its sequels, though it was much gorier at times. Well, or take random horror movie. Or even a game. How about fatalities in Mortal Kombat series? Ripping head out along with backbone? Huh. It wasn't even blurry 3D at first, but photographed sprites... How much close to real could thing get?

And there was time when countries wanted to ban Grand Theft Auto. Yes, the very first, 2D one. And Carmageddon.
Looking at those games today, it feels really funny.

I heard the story about the murder too. This is as stupid as something may be.
Any maniac could use any excuse for being a maniac. It doesn't make the excuse guilty.

For example, how many sick, evil people have said after their bad deed that Allah said them to do so?
Should UK start a campaign to ban Islam for this...?

Sometimes I have this feeling that most of the western world is made of 100% pure idiots...

Violent games ARE fun, and banning them == banning fun. Not all games, of course, but what people don't like, people won't buy, ban or no ban.

Anyway, human is human and flesh is flesh. Which means that horror and violence has a limit. Yes, there is a point where something couldn't be more horrible and violent.

You don't believe me? Read Remarque's "Spark of Life". I take this book as most violent and fearful thing I've ever seen in any form of media. It's written so it plays on same effect as Manhunt: showing naked violence it its simple, but nauseating and extremely terrifying form. It takes only a piece of rope, rusted nail or simple stick - and a living, breathing victim to create the highest possible level of violence and horror. We're just not used to see it that way, not without flashing gunfights and explosions. Seeing this turns people inside out and they start marking this as something extraordinary. But this is real and it works... I've read the book and I haven't killed anyone yet. I've played the game and I don't feel like doing anything seen in game to anyone...

So, bring it on, Take 2!

[Balin]

One thing that I've been thinking of:

The people that you go after after are all made out to deserve the brutal death. They're portrayed as criminals and violent, unpleasant, horrible individuals. And if the game bothers you that much, I say don't play it. There's plenty of other material out there that's just as disturbing, if not worse. And as for violent games causing violence, I highly doubt that. I play plenty of violent games, but I'm not mentally disturbed. If anything, I think letting off steam through a video game is better then doing it in real life.