Virginia Tech massacre

[Tuomas]

And, a huge number of nukes were, if not dropped, blown up altogether, and not just by Soviet russia and the USA.

[big brother]

If I want a gun, I should have to go to a Gun Store. Then fill in a form. Then get my photo signed by an officer of the law. Then wait six to eight weeks. Then get my gun.

It seems like most of these campus massacres are premeditated. Cho bought one gun per month (regulated by law), which means he was thinking about it for over a month minimum. Columbine had a similar planning phase, too.

The types of gun sold to the public could even be limited. Manual load revolvers or the like. I don't know guns, maybe there are others more suited to public consumption.

We have these. Limits on caliber, magazine size, and firing rate. We even have laws against civilian ownership of duckbills, flash suppressors, and other accesories.

We need unity, and a willingness on both sides to compromise.

That pesky little Constitution keeps getting in the way. Those bastards even thought to use the word "infringe" in the amendment. Changing that document sure is a slippery slope.

We? You don't even live here...

[Nikolas]

I'm pretty sure I've asked it before but here goes again (to different persons of course):

Evenwolf, BB, I'm giving you 2 simple choices:

A. No one is carrying a gun, not you, nor the burglar!
B. Both of you carry guns.

which is preferable?

Don't tell me that A is impossible, cause I know all these things etc...

now on a different question:

Guns are for protection, ok
Guns are legal, ok
Guns are your rights, ok

Say, how would you feel moving over here in the UK, or in Greece, or some other (non violent) place? For me it makes perfect sense that I would get a burglar alarm as well, and alarm in the car and so on, and maybe give a spray to my wife wherever I was. Would you take the guns you have (no idea if you do have or not, hypothetical questions all), with you? Cause if yes, then ok, although I find it nuts anyone carrying a gun with no problems and no issues around. if you say no, you must then be prepared to say and admit that your society appears to have some troubles, since it's leading it's lawful, lovely, great citizens (no sarcasm at all), to carry guns for protection and for need of survival etc...

I don't give a shit about this discussion about guns anymore. I don't really care to tell you what to do with your constitution, I don't feel I have the right! (btw, the greek constitution has changed several times over the past 40 years in greece )

What I do give a shit about is seeing if you like the way you (appear) to be living. Cause if you defend the guns the way you do, then you need them, and you may even have them. And if you have them then something is wrong! (cause I've discussed with other americans who are really more relaxed abouteverything here and claim openely that live with the doors unlocked where they live. They understand that outlawing guns are next to impossible as well as changing the constitution, but certainly don't go posting arguments such as the ones I've been reading in this thread (not pointing to anyone in particular))

[LimpingFish]

To quote my own quote:

"Following the Columbine killings President Bill Clinton proposed tougher legislation including raising the legal age of possession to 21 and closing loopholes on sales without background checks.

But they proved intensely controversial, and by the time the bill was to be voted on by Congress the president himself denounced it as so watered down it was "worse than current law".

Mr Clinton did however introduce the Assault Weapons Ban, a 10-year ban on 19 types of semi-automatic weapon. The ban expired in 2004 under President George Bush and has not yet been renewed."

Ergo, Clinton was a pussy, and his sissy gun law changes were just a collective bending over and spreading of buttcheeks.

And Commander Cuckoo Bananas makes damn sure Joe America gets back his right to kick ass. Semper Fi!

Well, everything seems to be in order.

I wish people would stop telling me what the problem isn't and tell me what it is.

It's not guns, it's not society...just what the hell drives people to pick up their guns, strap on their shoulder holsters, and go to town?

There isn't much left to blame. Al Qaeda? Satan? Enron? Erectile disfunction?

[Andail]

I wish people would stop telling me what the problem isn't and tell me what it is.

It's not guns, it's not society...just what the hell drives people to pick up their guns, strap on their shoulder holsters, and go to town?

There isn't much left to blame. Al Qaeda? Satan? Enron? Erectile disfunction?

But LimpingFish, I think we've been told now that the problem is that not everyone is carrying a gun. There are simply too few guns in society, and when arming yourself becomes mandatory the problem will go away.

[evenwolf]

Evenwolf, BB, I'm giving you 2 simple choices:

A. No one is carrying a gun, not you, nor the burglar!
B. Both of you carry guns.

which is preferable?

No guns period.  My answer.  No guns.

Say, how would you feel moving over here in the UK, or in Greece, or some other (non violent) place?

I would love it!  The problem is that I have family here and can hardly afford road trips two hours away.  I personally think gun control is a distraction away from bigger issues.  Like healthcare in this country, where many homeless people are mentally ill and would starve before anyone ever offered them treatment.  The "one man for himself" mentality is surely extremist when thinking about the mentally ill, as they have neither the tools nor the capacity to consistently remain productive without medication.  That's why I get angry when an incident like this is flagged "gun control" rather than "healthcare"  because this kid was stalking girls and taken into custody by pyschiatric experts, yet he received poor treatment AND was allowed access to supermart guns.   I do think this is ridiculous but it shouldn't impede on my right to buy a gun.  No I do not own a gun.  Hypocrisy?  Not the way I see it.

I think Cho Seung-Hui is a perfect example of poor healthcare & emergency response YET gun control howlers have totally skipped over the issue, preferring instead to blame an inanimate object.  Many european countries have it much better off than the US in my opinion and my argument isnt that your countries should follow suit.  Its that there is an established system that cannot reasonably or "magically" be solved.

The US uses most people and sustains their exsistence just so they can churn the economy. The government doesnt care about them far beyond that.  We are facing many problems economically and with our rights being yanked away with every incident people like me are very watchful.   I happen to think PR firms run this country.

Ugh, each gun does not equal 30 deaths.  That's mental illness.   Mental illness clouded his judegment.  Judgement is a mechanism most people have.   I trust most people.  If I didn't I would own a gun.

[big brother]

Evenwolf, BB, I'm giving you 2 simple choices:

A. No one is carrying a gun, not you, nor the burglar!
B. Both of you carry guns.

which is preferable?

Here's my line of thinking --
I have doubts as to the goodwill of this intruder, as he has already disregarded the law by breaking and entering. I have no assurance he doesn't plan to harm me/family. If he is armed, I want a gun to even the odds and better my chance of stopping him.

If he is unarmed, I still want a gun. I have no guarantee he's smaller than me and is not on PCP (he'd be impervious to pain, pepper spray, tasers, etc.). If he's dusted, he's only going to stop when his heart does.

Within the bounds of your hypothetical, B seems the most logical.

Just because someone is a criminal doesn't mean they're inherently irrational. Generally, they pick the battles they think they can win. A criminal will avoid getting into an equally matched fight. Even Cho, who was batshit crazy, chose a situation where he could cause damage. His post-mortem press package would be unintentionally anticlimactic if a vigilant student had shot him dead after he entered the classroom with his guns drawn.

A bully won't square off against someone his size and a rapist isn't going to attack a woman if he thinks she's packing a handgun. Your "A" scenario has implications beyond tackling a burglar.

Don't tell me that A is impossible, cause I know all these things etc...

You sound confident, but I'll call this bluff. Even in societies like Japan (which has had extremely strict weapon control for centuries), gangsters still have found ways to obtain firearms.

If the supply can't match the demand (in this case, criminals), a black market will form.

Say, how would you feel moving over here in the UK, or in Greece, or some other (non violent) place?

I've been to Europe many times (not Greece though) and while there are fun places, I would never want to live there. If I had to pick one, maybe Switzerland. They're so non-violent, they haven't had a war in centuries.

Would you take the guns you have (no idea if you do have or not, hypothetical questions all), with you?

Ooh, trick question! Guns are illegal in the UK, so by taking them with me on my move, I'd become a criminal, right? On a side note, did you know that non-lethal "stun guns" are illegal in the UK, too? With over half of all British robberies occuring while the owner is at home, I'd sure as hell like a gun if I were to live there.

As for other places, I would if I could. Crime and crazy people aren't limited to the US.

I don't give a shit about this discussion about guns anymore.

You sure ask a lot of questions for someone who doesn't care.

I don't really care to tell you what to do with your constitution, I don't feel I have the right! (btw, the greek constitution has changed several times over the past 40 years in greece )

That's a safe move. If your constitution has changed as much as you say it has, you probably DON'T have that right any more.

What I do give a shit about is seeing if you like the way you (appear) to be living. Cause if you defend the guns the way you do, then you need them, and you may even have them. And if you have them then something is wrong!

I love living here. Why do you assume owning a means to self-defense is "wrong"?

[Nikolas]

BB, you probably misunderstood half of my post...

You sound confident, but I'll call this bluff. Even in societies like Japan (which has had extremely strict weapon control for centuries), gangsters still have found ways to obtain firearms.

If the supply can't match the demand (in this case, criminals), a black market will form.

That was what I was trying to avoid. I know that! I know that there are chances (many), that even with outlawed guns the criminals might find a way to get them. That why my whole post is hypothetical.

Additionally, I don't care about guns or constitutions, cause I was not aiming at these parts. I was aiming to see how you feel about living and your self defense.

Which brings me exactly to the point. I dont' care if you would like to move or not, or if guns are illegal. Given you had to move (for example), to  society different than the one you have now, you would take your self defense with you right? No matter if legal or not. don't care about that. I would like to see if your "self defense" applies everywhere in the world, or just in the States. I didn't know about the stun guns, thanks for the info.

Still, notice my line of thinking:

Guns for you are a mean of self defense. I find it extreme all the way, you don't. Fair enough. I assume that it's the place you live that leads you to that beliefe, yet to claim that there is nothing wrong with the place you live, so then I am forced to assume that your means of self defense, for you alone, not legally, or whatever else, is valid everywhere. So you would go for holidays in Hawai (for example, for which I know nothing), and you would take your gun with you, just in case... the same way you get your knowledge of karate, or whatever else with you, right? It's just means of self defense.

Or maybe not?

What I'm (obviously) leading you to is that guns you want to carry, or carry, and have the right, could be justifiable, but in the context of your society, not mine. And if you are to understand this the the initial question both guns, or no guns could potentially take new meaning... (here in the UK, gangs raise dogs, or have knifes with them, but I don't raise dogs or have knifes with me when I go out).

[vict0r]

If he is unarmed, I still want a gun. I have no guarantee he's smaller than me and is not on PCP (he'd be impervious to pain, pepper spray, tasers, etc.). If he's dusted, he's only going to stop when his heart does.

Sorry to be nitpicking, but the tazer would work. The tazer isn't about pain, but about stopping someone. The electricity will tense the muscles and one won't be able to do anything but to stand still and fall.

I've been tazed with several tazers, and even though it were uncomfortable, the pain in itself were not enough to stop me. The electicity did stop me though. I fell stiff to the ground and if I were a burglar, someone could knock me over the head or tie me up before I could react in any way.

[Becky]

With over half of all British robberies occuring while the owner is at home, I'd sure as hell like a gun if I were to live there.

Or you could invest in a good burglar alarm, make sure you lock your windows at night and don't leave all your expensive things out for all to see.

[Nikolas]

And let me fill in with Becky (not that she might want to say this, but to fill in to my post).

BB, doesn't it ring strange that no Brit is thinking like you do? Isn't it a tad bizzare that NO brit will ocme and say "becuase things are rough here I think we should make guns legal and I should have a couple in my house just in case"? How come this does not sound strange to you but sounds strange to all brits, me and probably all Europeans as well?

[Andail]

Ugh, each gun does not equal 30 deaths.  That's mental illness.   Mental illness clouded his judegment.  Judgement is a mechanism most people have.   

Pray, are all those (roughly) ten thousand killings you have each year all done by people with documented mental illnesses?
I have the feeling that 30 deaths is a fairly small figure compared to the total amount of gun-related deaths. You make it sound like, apart from those crazy school-shootings, guns are hardly a problem in the US.