Virginia Tech massacre

[PsychicHeart]

I saw a report on the news about this with Jack Thompson, and he's blaming it on videogames, however this WAS in the early stages of the aftermath.
Once again, very sad.
Fluke.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Why are some of you talking about submachine guns and machine guns, anyway?  The average american cannot legally purchase those anyway, so anyone who gets them is either:

a) military

b) a crook

Hell, I don't think even police officers can have them legally.  Semi-automatics like a Beretta (more difficult to obtain), yeah, but not submachineguns and stuff.  Some of you need to watch a bit less television and read more.  Submachine guns stopped being made for civilians way back in 86 I think, so if you can find one made before then for sale and if you pass the rigorous requirements you can legally get an old, outdated, grandfathered model that will probably shoot your own face off.  If not, you can't get one at all.

I'm also someone who doesn't understand the concept that the removal of guns will magically fix things or somehow make them better.  In the absence of guns people will use other implements to get the job done if their intentions are to kill.  This is something you simply have to accept as a fact of life: if someone wants to kill people they WILL try.  Sure, the average loaded gun makes an average of 2-3 kills possible (unless you're a crack shot) but someone running around at night with a knife or a sword or a power drill could rack up just as many kills.  Does it matter because it took John Wayne Gacy 6 years to torture, violate and murder 33 boys and it only took this guy a few hours running around in a crowded college?

No, the issue here was lack of awareness.  It's pretty obvious for a guy to be able to kill 33 people and wound a bunch more that people weren't paying attention to what was going on.  So many people in the US have cell phones it's not even funny, and the vast majority are college students.  I find it difficult to believe that the police weren't aware of this almost as soon as it started, so one must wonder what exactly created the delay. 

Was the guy hiding on the campus and just picking people off at opportunity?  He's dead now so I guess we have to wait for witnesses to answer that one.

Were the police somehow delayed?  Again, the details are sketchy here.  The cops clearly have some answering to do about the massive time lag.

The only thing clear to me is that people simply weren't paying enough attention to what was going on around them.  For 33 human beings to die you have to stop and wonder what they were doing and what they thought was going on when they heard shots being fired.

None of this justifies the disgusting waste of skin that shot them, but still I have to wonder how he could do it with so few people being aware or doing anything about it.  Fear?  Viewer apathy?  There was a study conducted awhile ago about how the majority of people tested would sit and do nothing while someone was attacked or something was stolen simply out of fear for their own life or ignorance of the situation.  I'm not saying everyone has to be an action hero, but it's pretty startling to see A GROUP of people letting some woman get raped or attacked because they're afraid for their own skin.  Did something like this happen here on a grander scale?  I don't know.  I'm not saying it did, but I do still wonder how he could have caused so much death over such a long period of time without anyone stopping him.  These are the sorts of questions I think need to be answered.

[evenwolf]

Violent films and vidego games do have an effect, I believe.   Albeit, NOT solely responsible.   The same pundits who smear the blame on videogames are doing so while they turn the names of murderers into celebrities.

Natural Born Killers is a movie glorifying violence but if you look closely there's a political statement in there too.   

[vict0r]

Was the guy hiding on the campus and just picking people off at opportunity?  He's dead now so I guess we have to wait for witnesses to answer that one.

He was a student at the college and according to the, several pages long, suicide note he wrote he wanted to get back at the spoiled rich kids and the bullies. The guy was just mad at the world it seems.

[BOYD1981]

I'm also someone who doesn't understand the concept that the removal of guns will magically fix things or somehow make them better.  In the absence of guns people will use other implements to get the job done if their intentions are to kill.  This is something you simply have to accept as a fact of life: if someone wants to kill people they WILL try.

Well yeh, if somebody is planning on killing people they always will find away, from my limited knowledge of serial killers i know that most don't actually use guns or sometimes even weapons to murder their victims, but those are extreme cases and serial killers aren't very common.
BUT, a gun does make it easier to kill somebody in the heat of the moment, like if somebody were to make you really angry either by taunting or physical violence and you had a gun you could quite easily pull it on them and either intentionally or accidentally shoot them, or be drawn into a firefight if that person is also armed.
I don't really think anyone is trying to say that a ban on guns will stop people killing eachother because it's mankind's favourite pasttime, war has been around a lot longer than gunpowder has. but it could lead to a decrease in the number of gun related accidents (like the incident of the young boy shooting and killing a classmate featured in BfC), heat of the moment shootings during arguments, and people just snapping one day and shooting a person they have trouble with (i remember seeing something about an old guy who had been having problems with a family in his neighbourhood and their teenage son walking along his lawn when he had repeatedly asked him not to who just one day had enough and shot the kid in the head).
Yes, people could go running around with a sword attacking people, but the people would have a better chance of running away and avoid being struck, something that just can't be done very easily with bullets.
I know the problem is going to go away over night if guns were banned or heavily restricted (it should be illegal to keep a gun in a place where somebody could easily take it, like a drawer or in a box in your wardrobe), but nobody seems willing to give it a try, are there any states or even just cities in america in which guns are illegal? i know there is atleast one (with a silly name if i remember rightly) where it's illegal to not have a gun if you're over the age of 12 or something ludicrous like that, but it's probably one of those hick towns where gun ownership is high but actual gun use is low).

[evenwolf]

Here's a disturbing report from the similar event in Austin, Texas.  Its about five minutes.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HTU5lPzKvjI

16 dead and 31 wounded

Oh, and someone published the Virginia Tech shooter's screenplay from his writing class:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html?link=rssfeed

[big brother]

Too bad none of the class could return fire.

[shbaz]

Was the guy hiding on the campus and just picking people off at opportunity?  He's dead now so I guess we have to wait for witnesses to answer that one.

He was a student at the college and according to the, several pages long, suicide note he wrote he wanted to get back at the spoiled rich kids and the bullies. The guy was just mad at the world it seems.

VA Tech is a notorious party school in addition to it's presitgious engineering program.  Collegehumor.com (online posting board for debauchery and funny stuff) noted that VA Tech is their largest contributor.  It's not a happy environment for any sort of moralist.


And to re-enforce what a couple of people have already said, supposing that I was a pathological asshole who wanted to kill a bunch of people I would NOT need a gun.  The kids at Columbine High had all sorts of improvised weapons and explosives.  The internet is full of this information - with a small bag of (legally obtained) fertilizer and some nitric acid I could make enough nitroglycerine to take out most of the people in one of those large auditorium style classrooms. 

It's not NRA propaganda, it's the truth.  Why can't you see that?  It was easier to do it with a gun, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to do better.  If someone is mentally determined to do something like that a lack of ready-made weapons would not stop them.


What I worry about is the fear-mongered backlash to this.  A pretty minor incident (despite being the worst school shooting ever) is going to make way out of proportion changes to our law.  At the University of Oklahoma someone reported that a guy was carrying a suspicious object wrapped in a yoga mat from the gym.  They locked down the campus.  It was an umbrella.  This morning one of my friends there told me:

there was a fake sign up supposedly from Housing & Food yesterday that was like "due to the recent tragic events at VA Tech, President Boren has opted to make all access to all University doors secure-access only. He hopes this will allow residents to conform to the American norm of constant fear and paranoia. Thank you for your cooperation.
it looked just like all the other signs

[BOYD1981]

okay, this "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thing has been said before, nobody is saying that guns are the only way to kill people, we all know that if somebody is determined to kill somebody they'll find a way to do it, but a gun makes it easier for both them AND people who hadn't actually planned anything to kill somebody.
and how many of the kids at columbine were actually killed, or even badly hurt by one of those 'improvised' weapons?
i haven't actually looked at any statistics but how many people in america are killed by guns compared to other weapons? i bet those stats would show a hell of a lot more people are shot each year than stabbed, purposefully poisoned, or blown up by a homemade bomb (i'm willing to bet more people are pushed down stairs and killed than by bombs of any kind).

[Da_Elf]

so when you blame games and movies, why arnt people blaming the parents for not raising their childeren to be responcible enough to know the difference between movies, games and real life. In all the interviews the parents say, we didnt do anything wrong, we loved him and nurtured him....well. love and nurturing is one thing, educating him is another. I put the blame on parents. I watch alot of crap and play lots of games as well as one that was quite controversal...dungeons and dragons. but you never saw me running around killing people or trying to jump off a roof yelling out the verbal component to a flight spell which clutching a chicken feather or something. Thats because my parents raised me well.

[m0ds]

Sad news, terrible event but somewhat sketchy. Two hours between the first killing and the second spree, between which the cops were quoted as saying "The situation is under control". Isn't that supposed to mean they've captured the shooter? The other disturbing evidence is that he somehow managed to shoot each person in the 30 people shooting 3 times each. But when you listen to the video caught on mobile phone, it's not bangbangbang bangbangbang bangbangbang etc its bang....bang.........bangbang.........bang. Surely the 30th person would've realised by that point to get out. I dunno, and in a way I don't really care. America is stupid enough to permit people to have guns, so what do they expect? Despite all the mini-laws that come into play, it's just stupidity from the start.

[shbaz]

Mods, if you're in a classroom with one exit, which the gunman is blocking, where are you gonna go? People were jumping out of the windows.

It's a good thing we're not stupid enough to have airplanes, or something really... oops.

[Nikolas]

shbaz, Darth, ProgZ:

I see your points and I know perfectly well that if I want to hurt someone, a lot, plenty of people I can do it. I can start with my own family and so on. It won't be any better or worst than killing 33 people. I may not get to number 33 but I can go pretty far.

Now, my reasoning behind guns and the society that accepts that easily guns, is not the guns per se and the fact that they exist, but simply the mentality that is caltivated, and the education that is given to the children/young men/people with that mere fact.

I can very well live a normal life, but signs are always signs. If they can come out and say that this Korean guy was disturbed and it seemed and blah blah (heard his teacher of creative writing speak, and I felt rather akward. I mean you feel that this is the worst case you had in 22 years, wtf are you waiting to send him to a shrink???), then it is proven that something is wrong. When you see chavs on the road, you have the common sense to be somehow alerted for example. When you see a guy taking drugs next to your door you get alerted. These are signs, normal signs.

If you have a society full of guns, along with the different cultures (as opposed to switcherland), the cultivated fear from the media, then some people will derail, when this could possibly be avoided. It's not that individually the presence of guns is making anybody go cookoo, but all together could make a soup... Including games. We all say they're innocent and we don't like it when they take them apart and out and that moron Jack comes out and speaks, but truth of things is put them all together and you can get a pretty disturbed individual...

[LimpingFish]

A more extreme approach:

Should guns be outlawed, not because of what they are, but because American society breeds people crazy enough to use them?

[Tuomas]

Either way they would be banned, so does it really matter, or are we creating empty converations based on ideologies. Both directions have the same advantage, so they might though not dependant on each other, benefit from only one action.

[Hammerite]

Isn't there a bank that gives you a free gun when you open an account?
Why aren't the American government doing something about the OBVIOUS root of their problems (dumbass gun laws) instead of trying to ban videogames, which, although it would help slightly, would only be a minor change.

[RickJ]

I lived near VA Tech during the 80's for about 10 years so my heart goes out to the families of those who were killed.    Several of my friend's children who used ride on my shoulders and call me uncle attend university there.  Fortunately none of them are on the victim list.   

The campus is located in the very western end of the state of Virginia and is on the southern side the Appliachian mountains.  This part opf Virginia has borders with the southern part West Virginia (West Virginia is another state) and the eastern borders of Kentucky and Tennesee.  This part of the country is very rural and the nearst city is Roanoke and is fairly small.(pop.~300k).  Large cities are 5+ hours away driving time.   

From the news reports I've heard the so called delay occured because everyone believed that the first two killings were athe result of a domestic dispute and that the perp had fled the area.  In all fairness if classes had been cancelled there would have been crouds of students gatherinig at cafeterias etc wondering wtf was going on and perhaps would have presented an even better opportunity for a masacre.   It should also be noted that of  VT's ~ 20,000 students only about 8000 live in droms on campus. The rest live in private owned housing off campus.  Given the time frames involved I don't see how they could have reliably kept 1000's of people from showing up on campus.and congregating in public places.

In the state of Virginia people can obtain a license to carry firearms but guns were banned from the VT campus several years ago.  I heard an interview with a student who was barricaded in a classroom in the building where the shootings occured.  He said that he was a member of the gun club and likely would have been carrying if it was not forbidden.  He said that if so he would not felt as helpless and would have been able to defend himself.

Frankly I find many of the comments relating to gun control and the US lame and insulting.  Our country was born because an armed citizenry grew tired of being ruled by a royal family and successfully fought for their freedom.   That's our history, our heritage, and the legacy that has been let to us.   There is as much chance of the US repealing the 2nd amendment as there is of the UK beheading the queen .  (...again).   

While it may be true that folks in your home coutry aren't mentally stable, mature, or whatever enough to own a firearm, it isn't necessarily true for some other couthry with which you have little or no direct knowledge of.    It smacks of bigotry to judge a group of people without any factual basis or knwoledge doesn't it?   

If anyone is interested in knowing any facts about crime and gun ownw\ership in the US I would suggest the book
"More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott.  He presents data collected by the FBI over the past 30 or so years andconclusion drawn from his analysis.

There are a number of critiques of his conclusions and his responses, etc which can be found here: http://polyticks.com/polyticks/beararms/liars/moreguns.htmThe data is pretty much undisputed from what I can tell but you can judge for yourself. 

[edit]
Ask yourself "What did this guy get out of shooting all those people?"  He got to feel powerful, very very powerful for an hour.  For that brief period of time he had more power than anyone else.  Now consider what factors, had they been present, would have diminished this power?   

This reminds me of an early Robert DeNiro film "The King of Comedy".  DeNiro plays the part of a failed stand-up comic who kidnaps Jerry Lewis who plays the part of  hugely successful and famous comic known as the King of Comedy.  The whole thing predictably plays out where DeNiro get 15 minutes of air time and 30 years of hard time.  At the end when the police are taking him away Jerry Lewis asks why he did it.  DeNiro replys:

"It's better to be King for a day than to be a schmuck for life!".

I think that's what this kind of crap is all about.


P.S.
The perp was Asian.  Maybe we should consider passing Asian control laws?    Oh,well maybe it would make a funny bit on Mad TV or something.

[MrColossal]

"Frankly I find many of the comments relating to gun control and the US lame and insulting.  Our country was born because an armed citizenry grew tired of being ruled by a royal family and successfully fought for their freedom.   That's our history, our heritage, and the legacy that has been let to us."

Our heritage, history and legacy also involves sexism, segretation and slavery. Times change, let's change with them.

"Ask yourself "What did this guy get out of shooting all those people?"  He got to feel powerful, very very powerful for an hour.  For that brief period of time he had more power than anyone else.  Now consider what factors, had they been present, would have diminished this power?"

No Gun?

[Tuomas]

Well for the record, guns are designed to kill, and there's no way out of that. And if I had the choise, I'd never touch a gun in my whole life. And the whole fact, that you have a lethal weapon to protect yourself is just hypocrite, and what's more, I find it utterly sickening. If you truly believe, that people living in fear that anyone could kill them keeps them off the criminal ways, I guess that's because you've grown to think that way. Myself, I think there's nothing worse than the tension between two members that both hold the weapons to hurt each other.

The same thing in a bipolarised world, take cold war for example. Both sides keep making more weapons to match the other. Which one here is the devil. You do realise that they would be in the same position even if there were no weapons included. The whole point there is to scare the other away. You see the other one get a weapon, and you think, to secure your own ass, you need to get the same arsenal, and even better, top it. And whoops, all of a sudden everyons got a weapon for them, and they're showing them at each other. Well I wouldn't be surprised if someone showed a gun when trying to take the last jar of picles in the shop. And all this time people are afraid of each other, and for a reason.

Imagine a gun free world. you could have a disagreement even if you had less firearms than the other, but the consensus between the two or more sides would not be the fear of being violated. The whole gun system is crooked. Everyone has the right to hold something that is meant FOR AND ONLY FOR KILLING, for the purpose, that someone else would not do something he'd want them to do.

There are people, like the IRA that defend weapons because if used correctly, they won't be a threat to anyone. What then is a correct use for a gadget designed only for killing? And then they say defending. Well defending from what? Someone else with a gun. Sure, there might be some big guy who really wanted to hurt you, and you have a gun in case you'd meet him. Well then, what happens if that guy is holding a gun at you? At that point you realise your gun isn't any better than just fists as he shoots, because he wants to shoot. Then what the hell are you holding the gun for? You realise you're even, the two of you, unless you get bigger guns, and here we go again.

I can really digest such an ignorant attitude. Some people would eat each other, which is atm agains the UN human rights, and is thereby stopped. OK, but that's part of their culture. Be it that the US was a hostile, gun ridden land to begin with, so the problem lies in the very beginning of this great era. But if you really are saying, that people are entitled to own means to kill others with one finger, and that's ok, then there's nothing to justify being sad about the case that was the VA Tech. Oh come on, it's just part of the culture. Well I find that attitude towards a human life lame and insulting. Or could it possibly be, that everyone should have a gun, but no-one should use it? Then may I just ask, what the hell should they have the gun for?

[RickJ]

No Gun?

1.  How someone so incliened be prevented from getting one?
2.  Is a gun the only way to achieve the desired result?