Virginia Tech massacre

[Nacho]

Adam, I don't think Jeremy has been so extremelly unpolite to be told "You really deserve to be insulted"...

[Adamski]

That was more of a response to this

Frankly I find many of the comments relating to gun control and the US lame and insulting.

rather than a mad diatribe aimed at Darth, Nacho

[SSH]

To quote the late great Bill Hicks:

Like, I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England? No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True. Now-in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen!

Now-the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns-woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard. Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

Now let's go through those numbers again, because they're a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - woooo, I'm getting a stiffy!  - twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That's absolute proof. You know, fourteen deaths from handguns. Probably American tourists, too.
(Angry tourist voice) You call this a sandwich? BANG! BANG! You don't boil pizza! BANG! BANG!
(Scared English voice) That's the way we eat here, that's the way we eat here! BANG!
(Tourist voice) This food sucks! BANG!

[Nikolas]

Let's just keep in mind that for some things you do need experience, and the experience we over here in europe are recieving (and more over in Greece) is not kind to the Americans. I'm not saying it's all a propaganda, but we can't just bluntly speak, decide that something is foolish, and never been there.

It is a different society, a different culture and obviously there are reason that we (I) won't understand ever about guns. I mean, simply, having a gun in my house would mean that I would have to train my kids about the gun. Tell them what to do and what not to do. How not to play with it (leave out the plenty of accidents), that "the gun is a bad thing, but it's necessary for our family to survive" (which is a condtradiction in itself) "but most importantly you are not! to use it ever, although you're 13 now, while your daddy can use it and will if someone dares to step into the house, or something". It just feels insane to me, but, again, I don't live in the US.

I don't know how I would react if all my neighboors had been burglared/raped/killed plenty of times. Maybe I would just go down the same line as well.

Which came first the egg or the chicken?

But the swiss (since it's been mentioned that they have plenty of guns): They also have shelters for nuclear disaster! Which sounds pretty stupid to me, but there simply is a law, that you need to have a shelter! And they've never been to war with anyone. Nope, all they did was keep "our" money safe. So what do you expect from such a nation? I personally hated the swiss (completely rude to any tourist, would not even try to help, annoyed even that we were there), and I've been twice in this year already...

The mere fact that guns exist does not provide a problem on it's own THAT great for me. But from what I'm getting from the media, the US media are trying their best to educate people how to use them, and how dangerous streets are, and how to protect your family is ok (which same btw goes for the burglar who will have a gun while trying to break in, just in case Darth is carrying a gun himself), etc.

Let's face it simply outlawing guns won't solve anything, this is dead obvious. As is dead obvious, though that something should be done. And I won't buy the population argument one bit. I would assume that the whole europe, heck the whole world, has 30 times the population of the US, still more shootings take place inthe US than the world. (assuming, don't have any facts. But I don't think anything like this has ever happened to Greece or Swiss, ro Germany, or France, etc... or China and India for that matter.)

On the other hand terrorism flourishes in the Eastern Asia/Africa countries (Egypt anyone? and this is only the tip of the iceberg), so I could say that indeed these countries also carry guns and also use them, with far "better" results than the US or any other country. Of course, it is a problem, that needs to be cut from it's root, right? Exactly like random shootings in schools maybe?

Lastly I just thought of something: How come nukes are so hard to find? How come gangs don't carry their own plutonioum devices? Why don't Darth have a small nuke in his house and hang a sign "All those who enter, I'll fuck*** nuke the whole neightboorhood! KEEP AWAY!". That should work! (Darth is only an example, nothing against him, just bassing what he said about burglars, I love the man!). What I mean is why is nuke worst than a gun exactly? For me the same analogy goes for a gun against a knife. And the thing is that with nukes, everybody's so scared with them, so they are trying actively to control that fact, and certainly don't use them. But with guns, it's easy, it's clean, it's cool even, I see it all the time...

As far as I know in Greece, it's rather difficult to get any kind of weapon. Not a sword anyhow, or a gun. Knifes, yes, but knifes are for cutting salad.

[Nacho]

Adam...

I am quite sure that Darth refers to the feeling that "any crit to any american society aspect quickly becomes into random America bashing".

Maybe he told "some of the comments refered to guns in America", but this lapsus is easy to understand, since, unfortunatelly, with reason or not, every topic with the word "America" on it, has suffered from this, in the, let' s say, last 3 or 4 years.

For example "(A)America has a problem because in their Constitution allows everybody to have a gun, no matter of he is nuts or sane... (b) that proves that the americans are stupid, and deserve everything bad happening to them, because they are an imprialist capitalist entity, blah, blah, blah..."

Whereas (a) is an opinion that can be discussed and commented, (b) is insulting and unnecessary.

See my point? I am not saying that you added the "b" sentence to your paragraphs, but some people like to do that. And frankly, whereas we are quite respectfull and carefull with many cultures, we have the costume to hapilly jump into that when "America" enters in the discussion. I don' t think that this is a positive aspect of these forums, that, aside from that, are the most polite and respectfull I' ve ever seen.

And now, back to topic... I just want to remember everybody that I agree with the people whose opinion is for limiting the access to guns in America...

Maybe I am severelly pissing it off, and this laws REALLY exist, more or less in the same way I am going to type them, (sometimes the problem of the laws is not making new ones, but make the existant to be accomplished) but my ideas are...

a)Extense psicological exam to get a gun.
b)Implant of chips which make the gun only usable by their owner (This tech exist)
c)Restric the areas where guns can be worn. (That means, severe penalties to those having guns out of their homes, shooting ranges, etc...)
d)Heavy penalties for the owners of guns if this weapons are found owned by different people than the owner... Or if they don' t notify a stealing or something. That would also force owners to have their guns in very save places (such as safe boxes, at their bedroom, etc...)

Hope you see my point now

[Moresco]

The gun started in China.  It developed into a "firearm" to arm many troops quickly, since training of arrows/etc took too long.  The purpose of the invention was probably not for war, but it did become so.  It was the desire to kill better that fathered the gun, and it is the desire to kill and human nature that keeps the gun from disappearing - not a 2nd amendment or any other such law. 

And it is not America's fault or any other country's alone, but OUR fault as a whole people.  I think it can't be helped though, I think it's a human nature that is unavoidable.   

A man is murdered in a kitchen because he puts the silveware in "face up" instead of the other man's way, "face down".  The one man refuses to back down, so the other stabs him to death with a utensil.

I think that little incident sums up our entire world.   People kill over gas money, over women, over bad tea, over land, over oil, over who can and can't have massive killing missiles, over smoking, over anything that can't be settled without force.  These things sparked the inventions, the tools, the weapons of our worst moments in history - the wars, and the sad after effect of a nation that gives guns out like candy to anyone.  Maybe it sucks, but is it my fault?  Am I a bad American/person because my vote isn't the popular one?  I mean what do you think you're saying when you refer to us all as "AMERICANS".  It's a sad generalization that so many of us do to all of you "whatever country you're froms".  It's not right and I think we're all big enough adults to quit doing it (at least I hope).

There are so many people in this country who hate firearms, weapons, violence, and vote and fight each and every day to get rid of them ALL.  They'd even take them from the police if they could do so.  And each and every day our brothers, neighbors, sisters, and the criminals that want guns to stay who get to vote - fight back.

We're just like two men in a kitchen arguing over the silverwear.  What do you do?

Anyway, I've said all I want to, I'm out on this one kids.  Hope your debate goes somewhere beneficial at some point.  Cheers.

[Nikolas]

I think that little incident sums up our entire world.   People kill over gas money, over women, over bad tea, over land, over oil, over who can and can't have massive killing missiles, over smoking, over anything that can't be settled without force.

No they don't! At least not where I've lived! For you has money, or bad tea can't be settled without force?

[Andail]

Here's a site for people who still like to bring Switzerland into the discussion.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

[EagerMind]

There's an implication behind this whole thread which I find quite maddening, and someone was kind enough to finally voice it explicitly:

While I feel for the victims of the university, I can't help but feel America's created this problem all by itself.

Yes, let's completely nullify this tragedy and ignore the fact that it was the perpetrator of this act, clearly mentally unstable and in need of help, who in the end chose to act out in violence. Rather, it's because of people like you Darth, Geoffkan, RickJ, etc., that this happened. You're the ones with blood on your hands. As for those dead students, what did they think was going to happen to them? It's this poor Seung-hui fellow that's the real victim in all of this. Ah well, those crazy Americans, in the end they're just getting what they deserve, what?

Whatever one's opinions are on gun control, I'm sorry, but that's just bullshit, and sublimely hypocritical if you deem yourself a pacifist.

I can't believe we're debating guns again

Debate is hardly what I'd call it. Unless you consider statements like this to be debate:

If you find it insulting that the rest of the world is criticising your gun culture after a massacre of this proportion, quite frankly you deserve to been insulted.

"I disagree with your opinion, so you're an idiot." Gotta love it ....

[Andail]

Well Eager-Mind, this is a debate about gun-control which was generated by the initial event. With all due respect to the departed, there is always room to discuss why it happened.

As an event, it's tragic all right, but it's the same old story as always - last night in Bagdad probably more people were killed. If we were to start a thread about those killings, people would probably start debating the politics around it too.

Edit:
Actually, comments like "why are we discussing guns when people have DIED here etc" seem like attempts to win moral points by completely changing subject, pretty much like the please-think-of-the-children-woman in Simpson.

If I had been killed, I'd rather have people discussing the reasons behind it and the steps to prevent it from happening again, instead of crying some fake tears and moving on without changing a thing.

We discuss this because we're concerned and want to change things.

[Meowster]

Jack Thompson: THE KILLER SORT OF PROBABLY PLAYED COUNTERSTRIKE, DEFINITELY IN FACT, I HAVE PROOF IN FACt, THE PROOF IS THAT HE COULDN'T HAVE BASICALLY NOT PLAYED IT. SO YEAH!

http://kotaku.com/gaming/hardball/clip-jack-thompson-gets-hardballed-253501.php?autoplay=true

[Nikolas]

Well, Jack Thomson is obviously an idiot! End of story for this guy. He does not even deserve my post! 

[Tuomas]

Ok, let's go back a bit...

The VT shooter didn't pick up his guns out of a garbage can.   He bought them legally according to the state of Virginia's laws.

there's plenty of knives, baseball bats, cricket bats in all countries, but it's still guns that are the problem. There's just a lot more guns in the USA.

...was allowed by law to have a weapon, and could quite easily get hold of one without anyone stopping him. And it's not like he used it to protect his family from burglars, he used it to remorselessly kill 30 innocent people who just happened to be in his proximity.

add numerous quotes from above.

You can't possibly go justifying all these sentences we know to be true by something like this:

"the gun is a bad thing, but it's necessary for our family to survive"

because in this case the necessity is caused because of you and your great ideas. You're not supposed to be afraid of people because they have a constitutional right to have means to kill you. God damnit! The only reason you need a gun is because you give guns to those who don't need it. And then you say the reason that guns are legal is to defend oneself! It's using a constitutional right to protect you from the same constitutional right! It's the right that's killing you people.

And I'm gald I brought up knives and baseball bats... That must be the most terrible excuse I know. Think of it:

baseball bat = baseball = sport
a kitchen knife = preparing food
a knife = woodwork
A GUN = KILLING

Now tell me that you do not see the difference in the moral of selling these to people.

[Nacho]

I agree... specially if we don' t use this rule of three with similar examples:

Examples:
a)An idiot puts a bomb in the name of Allah.
b)An idiot shoots his gun in an american college.

Typical "average AGSer" reaction:

1)But the bombing has been a reaction to sociologycal situation!
(And can' t the shooting, or the easy access to the average american be explained by historycal or sociologycal situations?)
2)The bombing is not related with real Muslims! The guy was nuts, he was not representative of the muslim religion/culture, etc...
(And the shooter is representative of the "normal" american person?)
3)I am really sorry for the society suffering this bombings/terrorist acts... they don't deserve this!
(I can't help but feeling that America deserved it...)

See the differences? LOOK, I am not saying that "the shootings in the USA are ok". Read my posts... I am saying "America is pissing it of in this specific issue..."

What really annoys me is that when you (Typical AGSer) must criticise another situations, you allways find an "explanation" or an "excuse".

If you criticise some situations, do it allways, otherwise you' ll be hypocrital.

I am not saying that everyone doing that is doing it on purpose, or consciently, I don't want to insult anyone with this, but I' d like everyone "excusing" many other situations, to examine their conscience and ask theirselfs if they are being consequent.

And again, allow me to remind you my posture towards this: "American' s society really has a problem with a "too relaxed conditions" to have access to guns".

[Becky]

If you find it insulting that the rest of the world is criticising your gun culture after a massacre of this proportion, quite frankly you deserve to been insulted.

If you are insulted that:

- Some people find that a culture that encourages gun ownership as a legitimate self-defence/crime prevention (hah! hah!) tactic abhorrent and completely alien to them.
- Some people find that a gun culture that allowed someone obviously mentally unstable (or anyone, really) to own a gun with the capacity to easily murder large groups of people in a relatively short time frame is actually a bad thing.
- Some people find that the idea of having a gun to defend oneself by being prepared to kill, yes, guns are for killing, they're not very good at anything else is the antithesis of self defence, because all you do is escalate any given situation.

Then it's pretty reasonable that you should be insulted.  I'd be ashamed if you weren't insulted.  And some people find it insulting that in the face of citizens being able to massacre each other through an outdated constitutional right to "defend"/arm themselves people still cling onto this right like it's all they have to stop anarchy.

[Nacho]

Becky... and a society where 2/3 of the minors of 10 years want to put a bomb belt and explode theirselfs in an Isrealian bus... Do we insult them?

Be consequent.

[Becky]

I am not insulting anyone.  I am saying that if they find that people dislike, criticise and think that their gun culture (for that is what we are discussing) is wrong, and are insulted by that, then they probably should be. 

I think that pretty much all violence is wrong.  I would say that a society where 2/3rds of the minors want to commit suicide bombings should be criticised and disliked.  If that society is then insulted by criticism, then that's their own fault.

[SSH]

Becky... and a society where 2/3 of the minors of 10 years want to put a bomb belt and explode theirselfs in an Isrealian bus... Do we insult them?

If 2/3 of the minors actually did that, the statistic would very quickly become none of them wanting to do that, because all the ones who did had died...

Some people are attacking the reason for this nut in Virginia to be able to kill so many: lack of gun control

You are attacking the fact that nuts in Palestine blow up Isrealis. That is not parallel to attacks on gun control, its parallel to attacks on this Cho guy. I don't think you'll find anyone here trying to say that Cho is a victim, despite what Eagermind thinks.

[Nacho]

I don' t really see you point.

So, if there is a person saying "I see a problem in my society... I don' t like that problem, and I wish that problem to be solved... But I don' t want anybody to judge my society, or insult it"  Are we going to CONFER this person the right of not insulting his society/country/culture?

Who the hell we are to judge?

Look... If a persian comes to me, in a middle of an argument, and tells me: "Hey... you are being an arse! Ahnamineyad is indeed an idiot, I agree, but I don' t allow you to criticise my country by just a single aspect" I would probably shut up and apology.

Why if an american comes to you and say something similar with Bush/Guns/Fast food/etc... you (or the average AGSer) just goes and goes on bashing?

I don' t really can understand what put you (or the average agser) in a superior pedestal of morality in front of any person whose only known sin is to be borned inside some bourdary lines...

SSH: I am not going to discuss this, because in this I agree. If you are going to focus in my bad example, open a thread about Palestine, but it would be a waste of time, since that is not my point. You (or the average AGSer) tend to believe that you are better than any american, no matter if he is an genious or an idiot. At least that is my feeling.

Maybe you do this in an unconscient way, but I think that if we compare some reactions towards simillar issues, you'll see that, whereas we are carefull if America is not related, there is letter of Marque to insult if America is. Happy hour for being as careless as possible!

I don' t really like that. I think that if I were american I would feel that very unpleasant. But well, I consider that this is a problem that you (The average AGSer) must sollute alone, since it is you who like to align with the "politically correct" side.

I am not annoyed, I am just a bit decived... I don't want to start a big argument.

So, don' t start with the heavy artillery barrage, ok? If you want to try to sollute this issue, which makes me (and I think that to many others) feel unpleasant here, thanks. If not, no problem, I can live with it.

[Becky]

I'm not criticising "America" or "Americans", I'm criticising "American gun culture" specifically, so I don't get your point.