Watched any good mystery/detective shows/movies?

[Mandle]

Yup, I loved Glass Onion, although I thought it more an homage to (and some playful poking at) Dan Brown than Christie. I felt more of a Christie vibe with Knives Out. I got the feeling that they might be theming each movie after the style and tropes of a different mystery writer and, if so, then I'm very excited to see where it goes next.

[Snarky]

I felt the opposite: this gave me more Christie vibes than the first one. What do you see as the Dan Brown connection? He's not known as a writer of detective mysteries, is he? (Oh, I suppose you mean the puzzle boxes. Were you sorry they did not play a bigger part?)

It has also been pointed out that Glass Onion owes a lot to Stephen Sondheim's (and Anthony Perkins') The Last of Sheila (1973), which explains his cameo. I haven't seen that, but now I want to.

[Stupot]

I enjoyed Glass Onion too. A lot of the background stuff about Bangladesh etc. went a bit too quickly and quietly for me to process so I never would have had a shot at guessing all the motives and timelines. I almost wish it had been a book so that I might have had good go. But the solution ended up being quite satisfying and I'm looking forward to watching it again to catch more clues.

I did go back and rewatch the scene Snarky referred to and it is quite amazing. They pull off a moonwalking bear in a basketball game trick right in front of our eyes. I wonder how many people actually caught that.

[Mandle]

What do you see as the Dan Brown connection? He's not known as a writer of detective mysteries, is he? (Oh, I suppose you mean the puzzle boxes. Were you sorry they did not play a bigger part?)

Spoiler

Dan Brown's books always start with a murder investigation and end with the solution. It's just that there is always the complexity of something bigger which distract but, at their core, they are murder mysteries.

As for the connections in Glass Onion: Yes, the puzzle boxes but also:

The tiny bit of fuel that is unstable and can blow everything up is straight out of "Angels and Demons". The Elon Musk/Steve Jobs personality-cult figure was done in his recent book "Origins". The Mona Lisa being right at center stage was an obvious wink for me. The setting on the rich "genius's" super futuristic base is quite a Dan Brown trope: some super high-tech facility with grand, soaring architecture usually shows up, (and maybe blows up, like in Glass Onion). The murder via allergy was done in DaVinci Code, although it was peanuts in that.

There were quite a few other nods I remember noticing at the time but would have to rewatch to remember. And I do plan to rewatch it soon.

And also gonna go back and see the "dancing bear" effect from that scene. I totally did not notice!

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[Kini Games]

I'd like to throw Jonathan Creek into the ring.

It's a BBC TV series from the 1990s and 2000s, in which Jonathan (who devises magic tricks for a living) solves a different mystery each episode, enlisted by a tabloid-y true crime writer named Maddy (although she doesn't feature in the later, IMO weaker, series).

The mysteries are usually murders, often of the 'locked-room' variety. The solutions are often clever, if highly elaborate (don't expect to get them before the reveal). The emphasis is always on figuring out how the crime was committed, not whodunnit. There are always a couple of 'mini mysteries' thrown in throughout, so you don't have to wait till the very end to get a taste of that 'aha' feeling.

In many ways, it's similar to Monk (which I've also enjoyed, although I haven't seen that much of it).

The show is old enough that you should be able to find it floating around online somewhere. It used to be on Netflix in the UK, but not anymore. I recommend starting from the beginning. It's not one of those that takes two seasons to find its stride, from what I remember.

[Ali]

It has also been pointed out that Glass Onion owes a lot to Stephen Sondheim's (and Anthony Perkins') The Last of Sheila (1973), which explains his cameo. I haven't seen that, but now I want to.

The Last of Sheila is good, well worth tracking down, but very hard to find. It's playful, but quite a bit darker than Glass Onion - but I can't do content warnings without spoilers. Apparently, it was inspired by the Murder Mystery evenings Sondheim and Anthony Perkins used to throw in Hollywood.

I also don't think Glass Onion is a Dan Brown spoof. I suspect Dan Brown is just borrowing from the same sources. I think the Mona Lisa is there because it's a philistine's idea of a cool painting.

[KyriakosCH]

I watched Glass Onion but unfortunately didn't like it :/
Also I wouldn't say the style is pleasant - you can only name-drop so many celebrities and/or have them guest before the entire movie comes across as non-serious.
More importantly, though...

Spoiler

, why do that to Bautista? (who is actually great in his movies!)

Re Christie moments, when the scene first happened, I recalled that "my students"-related moment in a Poirot story (with the latin teacher or similar). But it was nothing - possibly not even meant as a red herring.
I can't say the plot was very structured (?), for example lots of things could have happened very differently or didn't need to even happen (such as the originally planned murder game).
Come to think of it, what was the point of the party? They'd all already know the other person was dead, if the detective himself didn't see to postpone the news, so is there any sense in having them all there with him? (assuming they'd even come, which they would not)

edit: yes, it also reminds one directly of that Poirot story in (another) Greek island (was it Rhodes?), where the same trick was used with the glass.

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[Ali]

Come to think of it,

Spoiler

what was the point of the party? They'd all already know the other person was dead, if the detective himself didn't see to postpone the news, so is there any sense in having them all there with him? (assuming they'd even come, which they would not)

[close]

You're entitled not to enjoy it, of course! But I find this criticism a little confusing.

Spoiler

Yes, gathering all the suspects together in a remote location with a detective is a silly plan, and something no one would do in real life. But it's also a staple of the whodunit, for obvious reasons. If they hadn't held the party, there would have been no film.

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[KyriakosCH]

Come to think of it,

Spoiler

what was the point of the party? They'd all already know the other person was dead, if the detective himself didn't see to postpone the news, so is there any sense in having them all there with him? (assuming they'd even come, which they would not)

[close]

You're entitled not to enjoy it, of course! But I find this criticism a little confusing.

Spoiler

Yes, gathering all the suspects together in a remote location with a detective is a silly plan, and something no one would do in real life. But it's also a staple of the whodunit, for obvious reasons. If they hadn't held the party, there would have been no film.

[close]

I agree, but imo it's not a good idea to base your entire premise on something which is simply irrational:

Spoiler

if the news was out (that the girl was dead), no one would want to go to a remote island with the killer, so there was no logic in having the billionaire send invitations: it still takes some time to travel to Greece from the US, email alerts would have reached them prior to arriving at the island.
There are plenty of far more believable plots where the suspects are all there with a detective.
I think they sort of tried to "excuse" all glaring lack of logic, by terming the billionaire "an idiot", and the entire group as "s..heads", but in reality this is an extremely bad joke (I feel) on the audience and/OR just very lazy writing.

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[Ali]

We're getting deep into spoilers here, but I'm afraid I still don't understand the objection!

Spoiler

It makes sense for the billionaire to hold their regular get-together as usual, because acting differently (cancelling the meeting, or not sending an invitation to Andi) would indicate that he knew she was dead. It would be foolish for him not to act as if Andi were still alive.

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It's an outlandish premise, certainly - but as far as I can tell, the logic is coherent.

[KyriakosCH]

^Agree to disagree; iirc,

Spoiler

he didn't always send invitations at fixed intervals; and they were all surprised when they received the box,

[close]

and anyway the film has a nicely flamboyant style (besides, Dave Bautista makes everything better  )

[Snarky]

I've edited the earlier posts to hide spoilers, since all this goes directly to the central mystery and identity of the killer.

Spoiler

This was an outing that happened roughly every year, and it had been planned long in advance. (It's basically this group's version of Mittens.) The island getaway had nothing to do with the death of Andi, and it would have been far more suspicious to cancel it before the news of her death came out, than to proceed as already arranged. No, the others would not have known, but he had involved a bunch of outsiders (some guy who studied with Ricky Jay to make the boxes, Gillian Flynn to write the mystery, etc.), and if there was ever an investigation, the fact that he changed his plans would easily have come to light.

If the news had broken as expected (and it's a bit unclear why it doesn't, since Helen only gets Benoit involved days after the death), Miles might have canceled, or he might have rebranded it as a sort of memorial or wake for her—I don't really agree that this group of people would have decided not to go. Remember that Andi's death was thought to be suicide, not murder.

The bit that is a little more difficult to swallow is that Miles would have invited Andi in the first place, given the extremely acrimonious court case and the fact that they all know he swindled her. I think we simply have to accept that his ego is just that enormous.

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Spoiler

, why do that to Bautista? (who is actually great in his movies!)

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Why do what?

Spoiler

Re Christie moments, when the scene first happened, I recalled that "my students"-related moment in a Poirot story (with the latin teacher or similar). But it was nothing - possibly not even meant as a red herring.

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I have no idea what you're talking about. What scene? A little googling finds that there is a Latin teacher in Hallowe'en Party, but it's only a minor character, and a "my students"-related moment doesn't ring a bell either with Christie or this movie.

[KyriakosCH]

Dave Bautista should never

Spoiler

die first ^^ - lots of others died in Dune 1 so his impending doom in Dune 2 doesn't count.

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As for the Poirot plot, I am trying to recall the name of the story, but it is one where the murderers are a couple (the latin-knowing one had killed a person in the past, and the girl covered for him). In the end he punches Poirot - played by Peter Ustinov.
Maybe it is Evil Under the Sun? (most probably)

I doubt it's a red herring/homage, likely just nothing at all

Spoiler

(there's a scene in this Glass Onion movie, where the sister of the dead says something about her students liking "Clue", and it was followed by a rather needless brief silence; but it's nothing, her students were in the third grade, so could play Clue, just made me think at the time of the important plot element in the Christie-adapted movie)

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[Ali]

I seem to remember that Evil Under The Sun involves some Latin (or Italian?) wordplay. Perhaps it isn't worth digging deeper into Glass Onion, I just don't think it's irrational for a character not to do what you would do in that situation.

[Snarky]

Yes, that was apparently added to the Ustinov adaptation; it's not in Christie's novel (and strikes me as a rather cheap kind of clue of the sort you've mentioned you don't like, Kyriakos). I think the Clue-reference is just to set up or underline how Janelle Monae spends the flashback basically playing Clue with all the suspects, crossing off motives and means on her list.

As for Bautista:

Spoiler

Don't actors stereotypically love to do death scenes, and compete fiercely for those parts? And since the film goes into flashback soon afterwards it's not like he has to sit out the rest of the movie or anything.

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[KyriakosCH]

I am just a Bautista fan, won't lie 

[eri0o]

I just watched Glass Onion too, I just want to comment that I did like it very much

Spoiler

and I picked all the little things Miles said wrong while watching so I was thinking "this is a nod that Andi is the smart one"

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I really liked the writing, the midpoint and watching it, I got very curious how they will spin the next movie!

For some reason Detective Blanc (Daniel Craig) feels for me like the anti-Poirot.

Spoiler

just, in the first movie, my memory is that his character was not very smart, and in this second movie for me it felt like they retconned as he is smart but lazy

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One thing I loved about both Knives Out is that they are original movies with original characters, it's good to have new movies that are movies!

[Mandle]

For some reason Detective Blanc (Daniel Craig) feels for me like the anti-Poirot.

Spoiler

just, in the first movie, my memory is that his character was not very smart, and in this second movie for me it felt like they retconned as he is smart but lazy

[close]

One thing I loved about both Knives Out is that they are original movies with original characters, it's good to have new movies that are movies!

Spoiler

Ah, I caught a lot more about his character on rewatches of both films. I feel that in both of them, the way he presents himself is usually for the benefit of the other characters and not the real him... a means to an end.

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[Snarky]

Expanding the question to another medium, are any of you familiar with the less-famous Golden Age authors (loosely construed), so that you can make any recommendations? I've been trying to explore beyond the top names (Christie, Sayers, Carr, Chesterton...), with mixed success.

My ventures so far include Freeman Wills Crofts, R. Austin Freeman, Josephine Tey, Erle Stanley Gardner, Q. Patrick/Patrick Quentin, Cyril Hare, Edmund Crispin, E.C.R. Lorac, Anthony Berkeley, Christianna Brand, E.C Bentley, J. Jefferson Farjeon, Baroness Orczy, Mavis Doriel Hay, John Bude, A.A. Milne, and Miles Burton (aka John Rhode). Out of these, the one I've liked best by far is Berkeley, along with Patrick Quentin. — Though I feel I ought to enjoy Brand in particular a lot more than I do. She is certainly a very clever puzzle-smith, up there with Carr and Christie, but I find her attitude to her characters so flippantly spiteful that I can't bring myself to care about their stories.

I'm thinking of next trying out Ronald Knox, Georges Simenon (whom I've only read a few short stories by), Berkeley's other alias Francis Iles, Henry Wade, H.C. Bailey, Nicholas Blake, Georgette Heyer, Gladys Mitchell, Rex Stout, Ellery Queen, S.S. Van Dine, Mary Roberts Rinehart, and G.D.H & Margaret Cole, as well as giving Allingham and Marsh another go. I would appreciate any tips!

[Mandle]

I would appreciate any tips!

I hereby introduce you to what is probably my favorite book of all time: "Boy's Life" by Robert McCammon. It IS a murder mystery, but also so much more. I dearly love this book and always return to it, and to the lovely town of Zephyr with all it's wonderful characters, once every couple of years.

(Not to be confused with the DeNiro movie "A Boy's Life" in any way, shape, or form)