This thread is MEANT to discuss any questions and ponderings any people, and AGS users, might have,about aliens. Lets say we finely meet some, what will we do then? Will they exterminate us, will they answer all our big problems? Will we even be able to understand them? Will they in any way be like us? Some say they will be benevolent, and I think that's bull. But I don't think they will be slavering monsters from beyond, cuz we are not slavering monsters and we've barely got our feet off the ground. AS a personal though I think they will likely be benevolent, TO THEMSELVES, but will be very resource hungry. But what are your thoughts? Are some UFO's alien spacecraft? who knows? I think its most likely bogus, but hey I could be wrong. One thing that irks this Homo Sapiens is the common reason to live in harmony with the rest of the human race is... that we are all brothers. All well and good, FOR US. But what about when we meet something that is in no way related to us WHATSOEVER. What then? Does that give us license to kill them all, does it make them not PEOPLE?. These and other questions as they arise are what I hope to talk to you all about. SO get a chair and start typing, could be a long night.
Unless they have "hyperspace technology" (Our knowleadge about physics tell us they don' t), or a very good cryogenization tech (and desires to be cryogenizated for zillion of years for trevelling in the space, our knowleadge about psycology tell us they don' t), or live for zillion years (Our knowleadge in biology tell us they don't), Aliens shouldn' t worry you.
Recommended reading: Xenocide, by Orson Scott Card.
Recommended realization: in Star Trek, every alien is conveniently a human-sized biped with some silly make-up. Actual aliens are highly unlikely to look like any of that.
If they are "resource hungry", they have no reason to come here - on a galactic scale, there aren't any resources worth mentioning on planet Earth.
And, as Nacho says, they can't practically reach us. Astronomic physics tells us that interstellar travel takes decades or centuries. Now contrary to popular belief this does not mean "it can be done faster but we don't know how yet", but it means that it is, on a very deep level, completely and utterly impossible.
yes I've read xenocide, great book, Enders game and the one were they discover ftl travel I didn't like the end of Enders game felt like it squashed two characters into one. anyway, ya its impractical, but that's not the wonderment. SF is based on the what IF... question.. I actually liked the star trek human like aliens. okay sure yes its so wrong technically, but what it did do was make it easy for the aliens to be people, characters, not metaphors nor space goblins. and about ftl for real? Well according to the laws of physics, as we know them yes, complete bogus. but the atomic bomb would be complete bogus to a mid 19th century physicists, atoms after all were the "indivisible ones" and maybe not. the Alcubierre drive is completely impractical at this point, but maybe there is a way of weakening space so that it bends more easily.
long night???? It's day over here in London, and early morning in the States, and late afternoon in Japan. What night?!?!?!?!
I, personally and without any facts I could give to you, feel that most things out there have been "explained" and "discovered". There is sure no end to discovering new things and logic says that there could be a BANG! in science with something totally new, since either way, we are bassing everything we know to older stuff. Einstein did something like this. He decided that what he was taught was not enough so he came up with new stuff. I hear people frequently say that Einstein is wrong in lots of senses... Dunno.
Now about aliens. The one thing I know is that intelligence doesn't come in human or animal form. If there are aliens, or could be alines here as well, they could be completely out of phase with us humans or the human world.
A silly example: Humans have a range of hearing up to around 16,000 Hz. Dogs go higher, and thus the do wistles are not heard by humans but by dogs. Fair enough. What if there were sounds around... 1,000,000,000 Hz or something. What if there were communications going on at such high fq? They live their own high fq. world and we live ours. sound everywhere but nothing there to listen.
Same could be with vision. Or touch, or whatever.
Anyways, what I mean is that if there are aliens anywhere, they could somehow reach us, they wouldn't be of the physical matter that we are made, or carbon based, or whatever simmilar. We have too limited insight to what other things other there.
And actually, chemsitry, keeps coming up with theoritical, not natural new bodies (don't know the british word). You get oxygen, Helium, Hytrogen and X756 or something... :P which can be constructed.
In the end, I have 24 hours every day and have to deal with plenty of stuff either way. Until someone knocks on my door with tons of doubt or trouble, I'm sticking to my own problems for now... :)
Cooool! I thought this was going to be a stupid Lost thread ::)
Whatever happens, I'm hoping Will Smith will be there to help us through an invasion of any kind to shout convincingly witty remarks at aliens like HOPE YA GOT AIRBAG and WELCOME TO EARTH etc ;)
I like Nikolas' theory about hz and stuff. I think it boils down far deeper than just sound too. Life being its own kind of frequency! But thats too deep and this isn't the thread about shrooms...but yes, I believe there are aliens out there and one day contact will be made. But Patrick Moore will probably miss it :(
At the moment I'm still convinced a lot of UFO's are time-machines, probably built by our human race sometime in the future. They don't crash anymore like Roswell because they know it'll mess stuff up, and we'll probably end up learning far more than we should far too soon, and ask too many questions!!I think Area 51 is probably just a testing facility for 4th dimension stuff. I can't remember what I was reading up on but there was that interesting stuff about that boat where they rigged it all up and apparently made it appear somewhere 40 years later, only all the crew merged into the walls & died and stuff, lol. Still the jist of that experiment seemed to be to me that it was really easy, and scientists could do it without many problems. But it could just be a load of bull ;)
Finally, aliens or no aliens, who's to say we aren't the master race, the master planet? We are fudging lucky thats for sure :D But, the perfection of our eclipses just make me feel a little on edge. In a good way though ;) Interesting thread lo_res
Aliens probably have better things to do than float over a blue planet and randomly pick people up for dissection/study. It's one of the many romantic notions that self-important humans have, really, that an alien is going to have enough interest in humans to start sticking things up their butts and down their throats.
Communion/Fire in the Sky are just weird sex fantasy scenarios if you ask me!
Quote from: Nacho on Mon 19/11/2007 10:04:20
Unless they have "hyperspace technology" (Our knowleadge about physics tell us they don' t), or a very good cryogenization tech (and desires to be cryogenizated for zillion of years for trevelling in the space, our knowleadge about psycology tell us they don' t), or live for zillion years (Our knowleadge in biology tell us they don't), Aliens shouldn' t worry you.
But Nacho...aren't you a Futurama fan? That was a documentary you know.
In futurama time-space is not warped, they only move all the universe while the spaceships are stationary, foool!!!
And Mark... are you aware that time, according to the latest investigarions is like a pice of rubber, which can be pulled and pushed, but nothing else? We can' t travel in time, since time is attached to space. :)
Mods: http://skepdic.com/philadel.html the Philadelphia Experiment, not really that amazing. Just some people being silly.
lo_res_man: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2004/06/25 give that show a listen. It's pretty interesting and halfway through they talk about extra terrestrials and the possibility or impossibility of meeting them.
Given the sheer volume/vastness of space and time; I find it highly unlikely that any other civilizations have found us and/or are visiting us.
The analogy I usually make (when discussing this topic with friends - and yes, it happens quite often) is that if there were only two humans on the entire planet and they both spent their entire lives wandering around looking for eachother, the odds of them actually meeting are so incredibly remote it's not unreasonable to say, "it's impossible they'd ever meet".
Now multiply those (already astronomical) odds by a factor of several trillion (to account for the size/scale of the universe) and you've not even incresed the odds of finding another specie(s) somewhere out there in space by even 1%.
I'm totally convinced there are other species out there. I just don't think we'll ever chance to meet them.
If there'll ever be an alien nation pestering the planets they visit ... it's probably us.
I thought this would be about the movie starring Kidman and her face of stone.
Go ahead and read "The Mask" by Stanislav Lem. Not a SF story in the meaning of "aliens and starships", but one that shows how alien we ourselves can be to each other. I would not trust any alien to even wanting to visit us.
Quote from: m0ds on Mon 19/11/2007 12:32:01
Cooool! I thought this was going to be a stupid Lost thread
I thought the same thing, but I was excited :'(
I rather like LOST.
Quote from: Ghost on Mon 19/11/2007 18:39:05
I thought this would be about the movie starring Kidman and her face of stone.
Go ahead and read "The Mask" by Stanislav Lem. Not a SF story in the meaning of "aliens and starships", but one that shows how alien we ourselves can be to each other.
Oh I agree, I think each of us is locked in our own skulls, in absolute loneliness, struggling to make some kind communication, with among other things, modulated sound waves and meat sticks. The fact we communicate some portion of our souls/mind desires to others never ceases to amaze me. Its magic to me in the sense of inspiring wonder. If we do ever meet aliens, wether we make them ourselves through engineering or genetics, or meet them upon the yawning gulf of space, we are gonna have a hella time communicating with them. But if we do, I think that though they will not be human they will be people, with goals and loves and hates that will be all there own, and there will be something familiar too. They are most likely to still be organisms, despite all that 2001 monolith, science gods stuff. And organisms wether asexual or multisexual to a point beyond human comprehension, will still reproduce, still feed, still love still hate, even if they do it in ways we can't understand. They ,I hope, will be people. I also fear this. For we, with all our damning ways, are also people.
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 19/11/2007 18:13:06
I'm totally convinced there are other species out there. I just don't think we'll ever chance to meet them.
I have the same conviction, though I don't share your belief that we'll ever meet. Our generation won't, of course, but what if, in time, radio technology evolves into something strong enough to reach 'the others'? What if they don't have the tech to pick it up? Good point, but what if they do?
It is impossible to say there are no aliens, and it's impossible to say there'll ever be a ping?/pong! between us and them.
In addition, I take slight offense to Nacho's first post.
QuoteUnless they have "hyperspace technology" (Our knowleadge about physics tell us they don' t), or a very good cryogenization tech (and desires to be cryogenizated for zillion of years for trevelling in the space, our knowleadge about psycology tell us they don' t), or live for zillion years (Our knowleadge in biology tell us they don't), Aliens shouldn' t worry you.
Our knowledge about phsyics tells us they don't have hyperspace technology? WRONG! Our knowledge about physics tells us WE don't have hyperspace technology. Our knowledge about phsycology tells us WE don't want to be cryogenized for zillions of years (and this is entirely debatable. If cryogenics were safe, there's always cooks and crazies willing to give up all they have for a chance at something new and exciting). And last, but not least, our knowledge about biology tells us WE don't live for zillions of years.
All these things say
nothing about anything but ourselves and what WE know, based on OUR world and OUR rules concerning science.
There's no saying what other 'species' far out there may or may not have. You're extending knowledge we have about ourselves to supposed knowledge of others.
Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 19/11/2007 19:24:36
And organisms wether asexual or multisexual to a point beyond human comprehension, will still reproduce, still feed, still love still hate, even if they do it in ways we can't understand. They ,I hope, will be people. I also fear this. For we, with all our damning ways, are also people.
Wise words indeed. Doesn't the "Uncertain Valley" principle imply that we fear most what is not us, but looks like us? I definitely enjoy your enthusiam, and I too think we are "not alone". Our universe is a good one for life to evolve. There are spores on Mars for example, that is already a different life form. But I find it a bit arrogant to discuss about us being able to comprehend alien life.
I spend my days working with multiple-disabled teens. They all are of my species. A good deal of them is of my gender. A few are even of my age. I wouldn't dare to say that I can even begin to comprehend *them* and their view on the world. Now how would I even start to understand a different species?
Quote from: voh on Mon 19/11/2007 19:54:54
If cryogenics were safe, there's always cooks and crazies willing to give up all they have for a chance at something new and exciting)
The one thing all those crazies will need when they make contact in 5 million years with another species are cooks. Good idea to send them along!
Eric... How can you have this attitude in this thread towards space travelling? Ain' t you the living evidence that time travels are possible?
I sometimes ponder whatever other forms of intelligent tool using life forms could take. Some of my faves are centaur like ( think of the advantages, hands and your fast) it allows for diverse body plans from praying mantises, lobsters and crabs, to elephants. (yes I think of elephants as centurion life-forms. Why? Trunks=hands) On a world with high air pressure, I imagine something of a crovid nature would develop perhaps. that is a winged tool user that uses its beak as much as its claws.
oh and actually the uncanny valley is actually when something looks ALMOST like us. when it acts ALMOST like us. want a good example? Most modern 3d game cutsceings and
this
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM124k2JU8c%3Cbr%20/%3E/)
Yeah, the Uncanny Valley is a theory about robotics which states the following:
If you give a machine human characteristics, you will notice an increasingly positive emotional response from humans who view it. The more human the machine appears, the better the response.
However, there is an "uncanny valley" near the mark of perfection... or actual human. Any level of "realism" within this valley causes a negative emotional response as you go toward the "bottom" of the valley. In other words, if you have a robot that looks very nearly human but there's something small that isn't quite right, it will disturb the viewer. It's better to be further from reality than "almost there."
Pfew. Glad I remembered that correctly. Can it, then, be applied to humans too? Like, the more "like us" a species is, the more negative we might recat towards it?
Quote from: voh on Mon 19/11/2007 19:54:54
Our knowledge about phsyics tells us they don't have hyperspace technology? WRONG! Our knowledge about physics tells us WE don't have hyperspace technology.
No, in fact you are wrong. Our knowledge of physics tells us that faster-than-light travel (aka hyperspace) is, on a very deep level, entirely impossible. Not that "we'll figure it out in a few decades" but that it really, truly is impossible.
Cryostasis isn't hyperspace. Cryostasis is wildly impractical for a large number of other reasons.
Quote from: Ghost on Mon 19/11/2007 20:50:01
Pfew. Glad I remembered that correctly. Can it, then, be applied to humans too? Like, the more "like us" a species is, the more negative we might recat towards it?
I believe that according to Uncanny Valley, perhaps a creature that walks on two legs and has two arms would provoke a positive response. This positive response would remain truer and truer as the creature looked more and more human.
However, if the creature looked
exactly human except, for example, the eyes were noticeably smaller and farther apart, that would disturb us and put us off of the creature. I know that's how I'd initially react.
On the other hand, we already like the creature that merely has two legs and arms. Having the same eyes set the same distance apart on that creature would not have the same impact, because we accept that this creature isn't like us already.
Quote from: Radiant on Mon 19/11/2007 21:00:40
No, in fact you are wrong. Our knowledge of physics tells us that faster-than-light travel (aka hyperspace) is, on a very deep level, entirely impossible. Not that "we'll figure it out in a few decades" but that it really, truly is impossible.
Cryostasis isn't hyperspace. Cryostasis is wildly impractical for a large number of other reasons.
okey yes, from where we stand today, hyperspace is impossible and DUH! cryostasis isn't warp drive. but
this
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive)
is. admittedly its the barebones of a theoretical possibility that, AS IT STANDS, is completly impractical. but maybe a refinment may lead to a solid theory may lead to prototype may lead to something that may not be warp drive but be just as good. And work is been dome on cryostasis. In fact very short term uses are becoming almost practical for delicate surgical work and holding a pationt who would otherwise suffer from lack of oxygen. Its noty practical now, yes. But work is been done and I think your been a tad pessimistic.
We have walked on the moon, many leading scientests and engineers did say it would be impossible. same with flight, heck I am sure some shamen said the same thing about making fire. On the other hand all those dead bodies stuck in the freezers creeps me out.
brrrr!!! :P
I've always thought that Others, if they exist, are something on nano scale. Like intelligent electrons or maybe bigger, like bacteria or virus. Maybe even plants, intelligent fluid or some form of energy. If they're better and more advanced than us, word "insect" comes into mind. Aren't insects most amazing things on our planet? Like ants with ultimate body structure, cockroaches with extreme vitality, and so on?
Being a life form superior to human -- I don't really imagine that this could mean soft, weak body of a human or even anything similar.
And if they're mammal like, why do people always imagine them as intelligent and advanced?
There could be planets with life, and primates on them running around with rocks and sticks. The others. Still trying to figure out how to make a fire. Wouldn't that be fun?
Whatever they are, if we knew them and where they lived, it wouldn't be long until someone starts calling them terrorists and sending in the marines to introduce our nice concepts of democracy to them.
Quote from: MrColossal on Mon 19/11/2007 20:02:56
Quote from: voh on Mon 19/11/2007 19:54:54
If cryogenics were safe, there's always cooks and crazies willing to give up all they have for a chance at something new and exciting)
The one thing all those crazies will need when they make contact in 5 million years with another species are cooks. Good idea to send them along!
Pffrtlt. Typo. I meant kooks, of course.
(though cooks would be quite the addition - there's nothing like a good hearty meal after having been over a zillion years in cryostasis!)
Quote
The one thing all those crazies will need when they make contact in 5 million years with another species are cooks. Good idea to send them along!
Quote
Pffrtlt. Typo. I meant kooks, of course.
(though cooks would be quite the addition - there's nothing like a good hearty meal after having been over a zillion years in cryostasis!)
I didn't even catch that one. I actually read it as 'kooks', but the idea of them having cooks is rather amusing.
OT I know. :-X
Well, if aliens do exist, and if their nature is anything close to ours, and if they manage to advance to the point of creating technology capable of bringing them to our planet, then I think we should be very afraid indeed. Best hope that we discover them first, if you know what I mean.
Although, the idea that aliens might exist at some other-dimensional level than us never really occurred to me (maybe they're composed of dark matter?). I suppose that would basically make us like ghosts to each other, if we'd be capable of interacting with each other at all. Hmmm ... maybe that's the explanation for "paranormal" phenomena?
But I suppose if we're going to be strictly scientific about this, it seems to me there's about as much evidence for the existence of aliens as there is for any other "postulated being(s)." So I guess that makes the idea of aliens about as silly and absurd as that of frumious bandersnatches and flying spaghetti monsters. In which case, no worries!
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 19/11/2007 18:13:06The analogy I usually make (when discussing this topic with friends - and yes, it happens quite often) is that if there were only two humans on the entire planet and they both spent their entire lives wandering around looking for eachother, the odds of them actually meeting are so incredibly remote it's not unreasonable to say, "it's impossible they'd ever meet".
It's funny, this reminded me of the phrase "little ship, big ocean." Basically, it refers to the fact that the ocean is so huge, you think it'd be just about impossible for two ships to randomly bump into each other, and yet it seems to happens relatively often (http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2006/11/little-ship-big-ocean.html). Certainly space is much, much, much bigger than the ocean, but you just never know!
Well, I was always fascinated about that possibility.. and I was always cynic/sarcastic on those that thought that finding the speed of light and make use of it would help us find other life forms.. Just to discourage the rest of you the nearest solar system is 1 light year away.. imagine the one with civilised life forms..I think we'll destroy the planet before we get any chance...
Oh I don't know, we survived the cold war didn't we? admittedly now its even more dangerous with all the new players in the nuclear "game" but well.. anyway what I hope for is that we get off this tired old earth, take our squabbles elsewhere, immigrate our populations, as well as our industry, give this old world a break as it most assuredly deserves. Lets go to the moon and actually LIVE there. lets go to Venus and create balloon colonies in atmosphere where breathable air is a lifting gas, and the pressure and temperature is surprisingly earthlike. lets go to mars for lots of water and light gravity so export is a reasonable option. Lets EXPLORE!
On the radio yesterday morning there was a conversation with an expert lady about space politics and a number of 'What if' questions were posed. The most profound I thought, being that If we were one day to be able to travel across space and find a planet with life on it, would we have the right to collect and catalogue them just as Darwin did with species from all over the world so many years ago?
Scientists would understandably want to study these creatures and catagorise them. But this would raise a powerful moral debate. Do they have the right?... Most people would say no and I would tend to agree, particularly if they were sentient beings. What does everyone else think?
Quote from: Stupot on Tue 20/11/2007 20:25:23
Scientists would understandably want to study these creatures and catagorise them. But this would raise a powerful moral debate. Do they have the right?... Most people would say no and I would tend to agree, particularly if they were sentient beings. What does everyone else think?
An interesting question. Your intuitive answer intrigues me, though. What is the difference between these hypothetical sentient beings and sentient terrestrial beings?
AFAIK, extraterrestrial life appears rather likely. Intelligent life, sure, considering that when a genetic-type mechanism (with heredity and variation) is in place, it appears that natural selection takes care of the rest given enough time. However, extraterrestrial life contacting us, or vice versa, seems very unlikely. And that's it.
It is unlikely, but I'm sure people in Darwin's day thought ever landing on the moon would be unlikely, but we've done it (supposedly).
The thing is, in Darwin's day did they question the morals of collecting animals from other countries and continents? Did anybody ask if they had the right to do this? They probably assumed it was ok because this is our planet and we have a right to study and research everything about it.
But in the unlikely event that we do happen to stumble across another planet with sentient life are we going to assume that 'this is our universe and we have the right to study and research everything about it'?
Taking living and conscious specimens from another planet in 200 years time might (when the time comes) seem as perfectly acceptable as taking conscious specimens from other countries seemed 200 years ago, and is still practiced today.
But for some reason, at this present time taking them from a whole new planet seems (to me at least) unethical.
I suppose it depends on the intelligence of the creatures.. If they are likely to wage war against us for kidnapping their children for science, then we'd probably leave them to it.
[Edit]
If anyone is interested, the radio show was BBC Radio 4's Start the Week, and you can listen to it by clicking on a link on this page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/starttheweek.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/starttheweek.shtml). The piece about space begins at about 21 minutes, but the very small snippet regarding the collection of specimens occurs at about 28-30ish.
I think if their are aliens out there, than it's possible they're either going to be completely cool with us, total dicks, or somewhere between the two. It's like pondering whether a neighbor moving next-door is going to be a good neighbor or not. We're not going to find out until it happens, and I hope we're ready if it does.
I do believe there is alien life out there, and more to the point intelligent alien life. Mostly because if you think about how big the universe is, there must be something else. Will we meet them? Not sure. Yeah, the vastness of space is big and all that, but with no idea of how alien technology works, it's almost impossible to make a hypothesis on whether or not it's possible if we conclude that aliens might have a different grasp on the universe. They could live on gas giants, and thus earth wouldn't be much a resource. They could be able to live in the openness of space. I don't know, neither do you, they have a better idea.
As to whether or not hyperspace is possible or not, it either is or not. However, to make the claim that it's not on a deep level possible is a little much. Science being built on assumptions, we can only assume that if our other assumptions are correct that it is possible or not. There is no real proof. At some base level we have to make an assumption, and if any one of those assumptions are wrong, there are many things that could go out the window, such as hyperspace.
As far as cryogenics, as of know, with our current technology, cryogenics doesn't seem very plausible. But with some gene manipulation, I can see in the future creating humans with a natural chemical in their body that allows water to freeze without expansion.
I think one of the ways to contact life would be through, either plenty of gene manipulation, in which case 'humans' might not make contact with other aliens, but some form of ancestor would. Or we are able to perfect artificial intelligence and robot technology to at least have something contact something. One interesting thing about gene manipulation, death is pretty much preprogrammed into our genes. Now there might be other things that cause premature death, or new technologies that elongate it, but the average human live around 80 or so years, just like a cat or a dog may live fifteen (give or take), years. It's possible to change our genes so we are able to live longer, be faster, smarter, stronger.
With all that the future has to offer, I think it is quite possible to come in contact with an alien species, if we don't blow ourselves up first. I don't think it'll happen in our lifetimes, though. Frankly, I'd be just happy if we could get an international moon base, and have affordable commercial flights into space. I think our survival depends on our ability to be able to go forth and breed.
-MillsJROSS