This might make for an interesting discussion.
My dad is a sociopath (read more about sociopaths here http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html).
He'd fathered and subsequently abandoned numerous children from other relationships, before meeting my mother (ten years his senior and very naive), who he strung along and abused for over 20 years (he didn't tell her about these children). He never held a job, he made my mother work full time, yet despite this he never helped in the house and expected her to bring him breakfast, lunch and dinner. He did lots of drugs. He was hideously violent towards all of his children and my mum. He was controlling and manipulative. I thought I was going to die a number of times throughout my childhood.
My mother has been separated from him for many years now, and as a result his health has gone downhill (his sociopathy means he is unable to take good care of himself, he destroys his body with ridiculous amounts of poor quality drugs such as speed, he smokes copiously, he lives on the barest amount of social welfare as he cannot keep a job, which means he has to survive on the poorest quality food and rarely exercises).
Recently my mum has found out that he might well be dying as he's in extremely poor health and can't even walk. Knowing the state of my Dad's health and his age, it's actually quite likely that he won't see more than a few more years. Now here's the question:
Do I make up with my Dad before he dies, or is this completely pointless given that he's a serious sociopath? I haven't seen him in four years and all I have heard about him is from my brother (who sees him occasionally)... apparently my dad was obsessional over his hatred for me because I once threatened to call the police if he continued to abuse anyone in my family. But maybe dying will make him open his eyes up, or perhaps he will feel something for the people he will lose when he dies? Although I have mostly overwhelmingly bad memories of my dad, there were of course the good times too... though that is not unusual for a sociopath. Is there a point in trying to "reconcile" with him, or will it just be a completely pointless exercise that will give him an inflated sense of self-worth and smugness before he passes away? Might he feel something?
What do you think? Discuss :)
To be honest, unless you really think you'll regret not seeing him, it sounds like he might not be worth bothering with.
Do you think though, that even though he is a sociopath, actually having to face death might jerk some sense into him? Or would he just feel sorry for himself :/ ?
Quote from: Meowster on Thu 18/12/2008 01:09:59
Do I make up with my Dad before he dies, or is this completely pointless given that he's a serious sociopath?
My old man is (was?) a sociopath too. I'm well acquainted with the violence and all the other crap that goes along with having a father like that around.
If making up with him is something you feel you need to do, then do it. If, on the other hand, you think it's something you need to do for his benefit, I'd say you're wasting your time. He's made it his entire life without feeling anything for anyone but himself, dying is probably not going to change that. Were this a Hollywood movie, you two would reconcile, he'd realize what an ass he's been all your life, and you'd hug just as the sweet music came swelling in to end the scene.
But life isn't a movie, is it? Your reaching out to him, should you choose to do that, would be for your benefit, not his. He just has a head full of bad wiring, and that's all there is to it.
I haven't seen my dad since I was sixteen (almost twenty years ago). We ended on a nice, violent note (sort of a family tradition, I suppose) and have no more use for each other. No idea where he is these days. Maybe he's alive. Maybe he's dead. Don't know. Don't care. If tomorrow I got a telegram from him saying "I'm dying. Come see me." I
might consider going. But my pop is a dick through and through and that telegram is never coming, is it?
Truth is, I wouldn't waste the gasoline it would take to drive to see him, even if it turned out he was just across town. Why? Because I'd just leave his bedside feeling angry and pissed off. He had no use for me as a kid or as an adult. Why would I believe he'd had a serious change of heart.
If your father is the same sort of man, I doubt he'll reach out to you. Even if he does, I'd suspect his motives are entirely selfish.
If you absolutely need "closure" or whatever, then go see him (but be prepared to come away with nothing good from the experience). Otherwise, tell him to piss up a rope.
That's my two cents, anyway.
- Ponch
You said "make up with", as though you consider this a viable option, when the possibility exists that, even in poor health, he may well be incapable of such an emotional response.
Would seeing him give you closure despite the lack of any remorse on his part? Do you even want to offer him forgiveness for his past actions? Facing death may simply make him lay more blame at your feet, which could cause you some serious emotional stress. Only you can determine if this is something you're willing to face.
This is an extremely difficult personal choice for you, and I'd advise you not to make a decision purely based on whatever comes to light in this thread. It's easy for any of us to say "He's not worth the bother", even those that share similar experiences, but your decision will stay with you alone, long after this thread has ended.
I don't think I need the closure personally. I guess that, 'cause he's my dad I kinda hope he would come around and realise what a jerk he's been, but I don't really expect it or need it, and I won't be sad if it doesn't happen. I just wonder if it could happen... though from everything I've read about sociopaths, it is unlikely. Ironically, I would be sad for my dad if he was dying because I'd empathise with the extreme sadness and fear he would feel for himself :) but that's it really.
Do you guys think sociopathy is a nature or nurture thing? I've read different opinions on the cause of sociopathy. None of my sisters are sociopaths, and my mum isn't, but my little brother definitely is (it's really sad seeing this in a sibling). I also discovered that one of my dad's sons (who my dad had never met in his life, he left his mother before the child was born) is a complete violent sociopath, though my half sister (who my dad also had nothing to do with) isn't a sociopath. Apparently it's more likely to be seen in males than females.
So it makes me wonder how likely this is to be passed on to my future children. I'd like to think that good nurturing would prevent a child from becoming a sociopath... maybe only a genetic weakness towards it is passed on? But I'm very worried that perhaps it is unpreventable... my half-brother (who has never met my father) is an extreme violent sociopath, and I'm hoping this is more to do with his upbringing by a bizarrely religious strict woman and a violent step-father, than my dad's genes. And as I said, my brother is a sociopath, but was raised in a family where his male role model was very violent.
Perhaps the significantly lower statistics for female sociopaths is because women are far less likely to be in a position where they can abuse their partner/family physically and mentally, and so their female children who look to them as a role model are not so likely to become sociopaths by learning their behaviour. Whereas men are more likely to be in a position where they can both physically and mentally abuse their partner and family, and the male children, who look to their fathers as role models, then learn/adopt this behaviour and pass it on through generations in this way?
I have read various accounts of women who claim their child's sociopathy was genetically acquired from the father, yet in all these accounts I read, the women only left the sociopath when the child was 2 and a half or more years old. That may seem young, but early sociopathic behaviour is seen around this age so surely it's not too young to have learned it...?
When you forgive someone you do it for yourself, not for them. That's probably all you need to do here, to get that out of the way before you don't have the chance anymore. It seems you at least recognize his mental state is partly responsible for his behavior, though it would be naive to not blame a person for their poor personal choices (like having tons of kids when they know they're a druggie and can't/don't want to support them). Yeah, it's tough sometimes, but once it's done you can start throwing some of the excess baggage you're carrying away.
Also, the concept of genetically inherited sociopathy is, quite honestly, ridiculous. Kind of like all those conflicting accounts of the benefit of vitamin supplements, yet every doctor I personally ask about it will say 'well, there's no conclusive proof they help'; some people just champion ideas whether or not there's a grain of truth there (and sometimes if there's only a grain).
Having read Steinbeck's East of Eden, I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that some are born simply as monsters. In a scientific context, this is sociopathy. Seeing him and reconciling with him will only help/benefit you. If he is indeed a thoroughbred sociopath, there is nothing you can do to change that. There is enough evidence abound to prove this. However, as others have said, if it will help you... Then by all means, do it. Otherwise, he will remain the same person as he ever was and he will die unhappy. You should not feel guilt in this, as he has been genetically built to be this way form the get go. Tragic, yes. But it is out of your hands.
Aside from that, he is still a human being. Deterred as he is from normal human feeling, it might still be worth a try. If seeing him will remove doubt or question from your mind, do it. If not, I can't see any reason why you should subject yourself to that.
I pretty much agree with LGM and the others. Do what you think is the right thing to do. If that is to offer comfort to your father then do so without expecting anything in return. If you get a positive response then it will be a pleasant surprise; if not then you will have the satisfaction of having done the right thing. Either way you will not have any future doubts or regrets about what you should have done, could have done, have done or have not done.
I concur with above speakers.
If you need closure, and expect that you will afterwards think "darn I wish I could have told him this and that before it was too late", then why not speak your mind and vent some steam.
If you think it will be constructive and improve your relationship, then think again. There's virtually nothing to build on here, so just get on with your own life really.
If you go for the first option, rehearse and be well prepared. Bring a friend. Don't expect it to be constructive, just give your speech and leave, then maybe have a pint with said friend and talk about it.
So, the new question is: Sociopaths, a product of nature or nurture? Or both?
The whole nature/nurture debate sort of negates that the person themself has some kind of choice. Sorry to delve into pop culture but another example doesn't spring to mind readily: take Rachel Hilton on the X Factor. She grew up poor, got a crack habit and had kids taken into care. Now she's sorted herself out somewhat but obviously still has issues. Or take Britney Spears: had loads from when she was small yet her mental state seems to have deteriorated over time. Or even the ex-alchoholic outgoing president. It is possible for people to redeem themselves to some extent but its also possible to let yourself slide into things.
I wouldn't worry about the Nature V Nurture question to be honest with you... Sometimes mental disorders can have a degree of genetic basis, but this doesn't really mean anything. It's a mixture of upbringing, schooling, childhood experiences... hundreds of tiny factors that help to shape how any of us turn out...
I hate people who use phrases such as 'Like father like son' or ' chip off the old block'... why do I hate those phrases? Well I'd like to think I'm nothing like my father... it's bad enough that I look like the cunt, I don't really want to end up with his problems. He's hurt a lot of people and I have no intention to end up like him regardless of what the genes decide.
Sociopathy boils down to an extreme uncontrollable selfishness. You can't make him see sense with a few words of forgivness. Drug users are also very selfish people. Believe me, I'm surrounded my them. So a sociopathic drug user really is beyond help.
In a course I'm taking we had a guest speaker today who was diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder at some point and had the history to go with it...a "criminal career", substance abuse and manipulating others. He eventually turned his life around and now has a day job organising sessions for juvenile delinquents. I believe both nature and nurture play a role. Some have a genetic vulnerability to antisocial personality disorder, like others have a vulnerability to schitzophrenia or addictions, but nurture probably plays a role in fostering the condition. (the guest speaker who spoke for our class came from a dysfunctional family)
I've heard the condition tends to diminish slightly as the person gets older, so some (but not all) people deemed sociopaths before eventually "mellow", but environmental factors can play a large role. The process is long and gradual, not a sudden thing like imminent death could change, since the whole sociopathy-factor is ingrained in one's personality. If your dad was a jerk before, he'll probably still be a jerk. Like others said, it's not a movie.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
My dad's brother behaved in the same sociopathic way as my father when he was younger, but "mellowed" with age. I suspect this is more to do with the fact that as he got older he was no longer able to hit his children as they were stronger than him, and if his wife left him he wouldn't be able to replace her so easily, etc. I'm sure that really bad sociopaths probably only "mellow out" because they get to an age where they can no longer replace what they lose...
And yeah Stupot it winds me up so much that I share some of my dads facial features, jeez :)
Quote from: Meowster on Thu 18/12/2008 01:09:59
Do I make up with my Dad before he dies, or is this completely pointless given that he's a serious sociopath? I haven't seen him in four years and all I have heard about him is from my brother (who sees him occasionally)... apparently my dad was obsessional over his hatred for me because I once threatened to call the police if he continued to abuse anyone in my family. But maybe dying will make him open his eyes up, or perhaps he will feel something for the people he will lose when he dies? Although I have mostly overwhelmingly bad memories of my dad, there were of course the good times too... though that is not unusual for a sociopath. Is there a point in trying to "reconcile" with him, or will it just be a completely pointless exercise that will give him an inflated sense of self-worth and smugness before he passes away? Might he feel something?
What do you think? Discuss :)
I think you should try to make up - or at least reach out. He sounds like a pretty horrible man and you're most likely not going to accomplish anything. But what if he dies and you didn't try? you might regret not having taken a chance. But if you decide to reach out, do it for yourself, not for him.
My two cents...
[edit] ehm - basically what Prog said some posts before... ;)
Ultimately, this is something you'll figure out for yourself. My take on it is that you should not go to see your father. Chances are likely that you'll leave there dissatisfied with the results. I'm not sure which is worse, the lingering doubt that you should have tried, or the bad memory invoked if you actually try to make amends with your father.
I really don't like the "What if you don't try?" response people tend to have in these situations. You can put more stock in yourself, as far as I'm concerned, if you're intelligent enough to see the end result, and decide it's not worth it. Your father sounds like a miserable human being, and I wouldn't give him the luxury of your time. If he has a glimmer of good in him, than he'll be the one to try to make amends.
This just sounds like a situation where you prepare for the worst and hope for the worst. Because even if your dad seems forgiving, you might not want to be sucked into his life again. People rarely change. As I can't really relate to this, though...my opinion only means so much in this issue.
-MillsJROSS
Out of respect for him being your father, you should see him one last time. Maybe it will help you with closure. If you get there and he starts yelling and screaming at you with insults... say what you have to say and leave.
That is a brave and respectable thing to do as a son and as a man.
Maybe try and "meet halfways"?
I mean, going there, out of the blue to see him is definately not a good idea, and it won't work like in the movies. But if you did have some sort of discussion over the phone, or something, to see how he feels, and he feels he'd like to see you, maybe there is a glimpse of hope that you may 'enjoy' somehow the meeting.
If he does make a small effort, it may mean something to you, won't it?
Respect, fatherhood, etc, all mean nothing, I'm sorry (for me). In this case. I adore my family, and my parents, but I was treated properly. I'm not the kind who forgives easily... (just so you know ... :-\)
QuoteThat is a brave and respectable thing to do as a son and as a man.
Or as a daughter and a woman, in Meowster's case. :D
I think you should bring him some flowers.
Hahahaha Rharpe :)
I've done a bit more reading about sociopaths and apparently there's really no point in trying to get back into contact with him so I won't. It doesn't bother me at all, and the only thing that will bother him about it is that I'm one less person he has any influence over.
I'm amazed that sociopaths are as common as they seem to be...
Quote from: Meowster on Fri 19/12/2008 16:15:33
Hahahaha Rharpe :)
See, I made you laugh... that made my day. :D
*There are girls on this forum now... holy crap, how long have I been away???*
I don't know about sociopath, but my ex-dad is an asshole for certain. He sexually abused my siblings, two boys and one girl, was always being distant and angry, then trying too hard to suddenly be all close with us when he felt like it. He's pompous, hypocritically religious (yeah, I know what kind of porn you look at, Mr. Holiest Than Thou), has referred to different races and social classes from ours as "those people" in derogatory ways, and so on. Just generally an all-around jerk that blames his jerkiness on other people not understanding him.
Now, I really am a patient, easygoing, nice person. But after 26 years of putting up with that kind of crap, my sister came visiting for Easter with her three kids. I was tucking my skinny little 8 year old nephew in to bed, and telling him a funny bedtime story. Ex-dad comes in, and for some reason starts snapping his fingers and sternly ordering my nephew to lay down. (He was just sitting up under the covers.) My nephew doesn't pay attention, because I'm still telling the story. So suddenly, dad spear-points his hand and hits him, hard, in the head. My nephew screams, and I knocked that bastard across the room so hard his head hit the far wall without his feet touching the ground. My nephew ran away screaming, and if it hadn't been for that snapping me out and realizing it would traumatize the kid, I swear I would've put the bastard in the hospital or the morgue. I still have dreams every month or so about killing him, and I always wake up smiling.
So anyways, that was over 2 1/2 years ago, I haven't seen him since, never will again. My family keeps trying to push me into it, because they'd rather feel comfortable than face the fact that something's seriously wrong. I'm literally changing my last name legally as a holiday present to myself, now that I have the money saved up.
So I say, screw him. What good is a death bed repentance if his whole life was a horrible cancer on other people's? It just means he did bad stuff and is scared of dying alone, it's just selfishness. Like the way my grandpa was a jerk, abusive husband and cheater all his life, and now suddenly that he's only a couple years from death, he's trying to be all nice so people remember him fondly. My grandma (ex-dad's side) just died a couple months back, and I didn't even care...she was just the same. And I've never believed that you should love people automatically just because you share DNA...even if you're family, you need to *work* at treating each other right and loving one another, or you should break the abusive or negligent person off like you would any other friend or significant other that's gone bad no matter how many chances you gave them.
I'm gonna probably receive some hate and flake for saying this but I feel feel this needs to be said. Meowster, your entire story seems incredibly one sided and exaggerated. No one is perfect. Most of us all have parents that did stuff while they were raising us that they later. It used to be perfectly socially acceptable to beat your kids as long as no permanent damage occurred (not that its a good thing fuck no). I also question why in his 20 year stint you never attempted to arrange a intervention. My dad got hooked on cocaine and heroine from when I turned 10 to when I turned 19. After a family intervention he went into rehab and he's been clean ever since. It seems to me your dad's been crying out for help for a long time but he didn't know how to say it. I know it may seem like he deserves his situation but that attitude makes you no better than your dad. You can still make it right.
Also, your dad isn't a sociopath. I just brought this to my brother who is a psychiatrist and he confirmed that.
QuoteAlso, your dad isn't a sociopath. I just brought this to my brother who is a psychiatrist and he confirmed that.
That is because the term 'sociopath' is not a diagnosis. It is a generalised statement referring to several symptoms that branch across several recognised mental disorders that are somewhat similiar (the disorders being similiar, that is).
Quote from: iamahauntedhamburger on Tue 23/12/2008 03:15:39
I'm gonna probably receive some hate and flake for saying this but I feel feel this needs to be said. Meowster, your entire story seems incredibly one sided and exaggerated. No one is perfect. Most of us all have parents that did stuff while they were raising us that they later. It used to be perfectly socially acceptable to beat your kids as long as no permanent damage occurred (not that its a good thing fuck no). I also question why in his 20 year stint you never attempted to arrange a intervention. My dad got hooked on cocaine and heroine from when I turned 10 to when I turned 19. After a family intervention he went into rehab and he's been clean ever since. It seems to me your dad's been crying out for help for a long time but he didn't know how to say it. I know it may seem like he deserves his situation but that attitude makes you no better than your dad. You can still make it right.
Also, your dad isn't a sociopath. I just brought this to my brother who is a psychiatrist and he confirmed that.
My story isn't incredibly one sided and exaggerated at all. I'm not sure which part made you think that, could you specify? I didn't actually go into detail over most of what he's done because it wasn't a rant at how much I hate my dad. It was a question as to whether there was any chance that his imminent death could give him a kick up the arse and try to make up for everything he's done wrong, or whether as a sociopath, which he
certainly is given his absolute lack of any empathy towards animals or other humans and the lack of empathy he has ever shown (even going back as far as his childhood), there was no point.
Permanent damage DID occur to me and my sisters, and to my mum, both mentally
and physically. From throwing kettles of boiling water at us to grabbing my hair and smashing my face into my mum's face, and pretty much every nasty thing you could think of inbetween. He picked up my baby sisters and threw them at walls if they didn't stop crying. He told my little brothers to hit my mother if she tried to tell them what to do. He threw my little brother into a patch of nettles when he was just a baby. Man, it even extends to outside the family circle - my main memory of keeping dogs was of him torturing them in some way (putting them in plastic bags and spinning them over his head for 'fun', trying to break one dog's neck in the door because he was in a bad mood, locking them in a dark windowless shed for a week with no food or water).
Why in his 20 year stint I never attempted to arrange an intervention? You think we didn't ask him to stop? When we did say something that offended his idea that he was the cleverest and best man in the world or that his ideas weren't unarguably the best, he would go into dark rages. Let me give you an example of these rages. He took us out of school and forbade us to ever leave our "property" or speak to other children. By the age of about 13 I was desperate to interact with other children and to go to school, so I asked if I could start school. He asked if I really wanted to, and I said yes. So he started screaming about how I was disrespecting his brilliant idea of home education. For the record, we were never taught anything at home, had no lessons or structure - he just didn't want us going to school. This rage spiralled into him throwing parrafin everywhere in the house and threatening to set fire to everything. Then he dragged me outside, covered me in parrafin and held a match to my head, threatening to set me on fire and make my mother watch me burn. When my mother locked him outside he tried to ax the door down, screaming that he was going to kill all of us. He cut the phone lines and turned out the electricity (the box was on the side of the house). My mum called the police on her mobile phone and it was the only thing that stopped him from continuing (because they turned up).
Does that sound like perfectly acceptable social behaviour?
This is the kind of event that met any attempt to ask him to see psychiatrists, or to stop taking drugs, or to stop drinking.
My dad is also obsessed with getting "revenge" on people and trying to maintain an aura of superiority over them. For instance, he phones my mother regularly even now that they are separated, to tell her that he's making loads of money, or he's got a new shiny car, or he's got this "great job... don't want to tell you what it is though because I know you're struggling at university and you've worked all your life, I don't want to make you jealous that I could just step into this great job when you've been struggling all your life to get where you are! But just to let you know, I'm doing REALLY well for myself!" and yes, that is pretty much a word for word quote. He is that obvious when he attempts to gloat! But the worst/funniest part is that it's also really obvious that all these things he says are fabrications and lies to try and make himself seem better than he is. In reality he's never had a job and still doesn't, he lives in a tiny council house in a poor area of town and lives off benefits.
When I was a child, whenever I met new people (which was incredibly rare), I was instructed, pretty much given a script of things to say when asked. My dad would get extremely angry if I didn't learn my "lines" and messed up. When I was as young as 6, I was being told exactly what to say to my Grandma when she asked certain questions. Every aspect of my interaction with people was rehearsed, even ridiculous things like "when she comes in to the room say, "Grandma, I wasn't expecting you to visit today!" or "If she asks what I do for a living, tell her I'm a graphic designer" (in truth he never had a job).
Furthermore he uses the children left at home to try and blackmail my mother. Never does he visit them, or send them birthday cards, or speak to them on the phone... EXCEPT for times when he wants to ask questions like "does mummy have a new boyfriend?". Because of the nature of these interrogations, he'll only ever speak to my youngest sister because he believes, I guess, that she will give away information more easily. This is actually how these conversations unfold: he will call, ask to speak to her, and then I guess not realising it's on speakerphone will say, "Hi honey. How are you doing at school? Listen, does mummy have a new boyfriend? No? Because I saw her in town with a guy today. Does she often go out with guys? No? What about girls? Do you think mummy is a lesbian? Does she have very close female friends?" etc etc. The only other time he seems to remember they exist is when he gets into black rages and calls my mum threatening to have the kids taken away from her if she doesn't lend him money or whatever.
Why didn't my mother leave him? Because like so many sociopaths, my dad was brilliant at manipulation. Everything, from fully convincing my terrified mother that he would gain custody of the children or kill her parents by setting fire to their house, to having "good spells" where he'd lavish my mother in love and attention and empty promises. Like so many sociopaths, he was a master of manipulation. He knew exactly how to use a suicide threat to keep my mother under control.
Wow, I could go on and on and on. I'm quite offended by your post, it is the kind of thing I would actually expect my dad to say in defence of himself or something. Also taking this to your "psychiatrist brother"? There is no way I offered enough information in my first posts for any psychiatrist to judge anything other than that he's a dick. Suggesting that I'm no better than my dad if I choose not to indulge his attempts to manipulate people is a real offensive thing to say, too.
Sorry for the long post everyone but honestly I had to set this guy straight. One sided and exaggerated? Jesus christ.
I have no "tools" to know if it is exagerated or no... Honestly, I think it is not.
What I think is that "internet" is not an appropiate place for discussing such an important decission as this. Family, boyfriend, friends, even a psychologist might help. We (AGS mates) are basically blind and we can't really help.
Ah but some people here have been of help! People who have experienced similar situations - the only question I'm asking is whether or not there is a point in trying to make peace with a sociopath, and I've found some of the replies from people who have experienced similar situations to be very helpful. I don't know anybody personally who has experienced this kind of thing, and that is why the internet is a great tool for asking this particular question.
The fact it is the internet made me exclude most of the 'gorey' detail from my first post, however, for hauntedhamburger to make quite an offensive judgement based on so little evidence is pretty irritating, so if he wants to he can read just a little of the terrible shit my dad did and then think again about whether his reply is appropriate.
Yes it's the internet and nobody can be sure that someone else isn't exaggerating, but giving such opinionated and offensive advice (saying I'm no better than my dad if I don't "make up" with him!) based on the assumption that I am exaggerating is a bit much for me to take, without at least showing hauntedhamburger how bloody wrong he is!
Also, this kind of domestic violence is not all that uncommon. It irritates me when I meet people who deny such things happen. I really do meet people sometimes who think that cases like that are exaggerated, because they don't understand why the wife didn't leave the husband or the children didn't stop the father or whatever. Or people who have lived with one parent who was a "bit shite" but they managed to deal with it, and then assume that all people could do the same in their situation - which is exactly what hauntedhamburger seems to think. It's an attitude that I absolutely hate.
Whatever the replies are, Meowster, they are just a "roschard" test. You' ll finally end doing what you really want to do, following your intellect and your heart. The only thing we can do is sit, and hope you take the correct decission, if it really exist.
Quote from: iamahauntedhamburger on Tue 23/12/2008 03:15:39
I'm gonna probably receive some hate and flake for saying this but I feel feel this needs to be said. Meowster, your entire story seems incredibly one sided and exaggerated. No one is perfect. Most of us all have parents that did stuff while they were raising us that they later. It used to be perfectly socially acceptable to beat your kids as long as no permanent damage occurred (not that its a good thing fuck no). It seems to me your dad's been crying out for help for a long time but he didn't know how to say it. I know it may seem like he deserves his situation but that attitude makes you no better than your dad. You can still make it right.
What exactly gives you the right to call the testimony of another person, whom you know absolutely nothing of, one-sided and exaggerated? Let us who know Meowster better make such judgments.
What makes you believe her father was
not a sociopath? Such destructive people exist, you know. One of my closest friends during childhood had the exact same situation. It's not unique to have sociopaths/psychopaths in your family. It's not a ghost or a troll or something you can choose not to believe in; these people are very real.
Quote
I also question why in his 20 year stint you never attempted to arrange a intervention. My dad got hooked on cocaine and heroine from when I turned 10 to when I turned 19. After a family intervention he went into rehab and he's been clean ever since.
Jesus, get off your high horse. Are you blaming the victim now? I'm sure your brother the psychologist (?) would be proud of you. Just because something worked out in your family doesn't mean it has to work with everyone. Grow some sense, really.
Quote
Also, your dad isn't a sociopath. I just brought this to my brother who is a psychiatrist and he confirmed that.
Another miraculously arrogant statement. I'm surrounded by people with varying degrees of psychological expertise, including my father who's been a psychologist for some 25 years, and I challenge the entire mindset of you and your brother, and I hope nobody ever consults any of you.
God day.
And a God day to you, sir! :D
I'm more amused than offended by hamburger's post, personally. I mean, he makes this quick post to say 'Oh yeah, my psychiatrist brother just made a pap diagnosis of your dad who he's never examined and guess what, he's fine!'
Maybe next he'll have his brother register an account to 'defend himself' against these comments. Something like Psychiatrist172.
One question from someone who knows 0 about psychology... Does a bad person necesarilly have to be "something"? (Being a sociopath, had a difficult childhood, having "less hormon of whatever glandula", etc...)
Can' t bad people just be bad people?
***I admit it's totally off topic, and I am not refering at all to Meowster' s case...***
Quote from: Nacho on Tue 23/12/2008 19:08:06
One question from someone who knows 0 about psychology... Does a bad person necesarilly have to be "something"? (Being a sociopath, had a difficult childhood, having "less hormon of whatever glandula", etc...)
Can' t bad people just be bad people?
***I admit it's totally off topic, and I am not refering at all to Meowster' s case...***
It all depends on where you want to place the border between free will and determinism, really. You can always argue that social and genetical conditions govern all aspects of our personality.
Another philosphical question is the meaning of "bad". Loving and caring towards your friends and family, but selfish and inconsiderate towards strangers? All bad? Feeling an urge to torture people, but never indulging in it? Acting like a saint throughout your life, but only because you believe God will reward you in afterlife, just good or selfish?
But even in a merely psychological perspective; you probably won't turn downright, altogether
bad without a reason. If a person can choose, they'd choose to be good.
Interesting :) There' s no doubt that it is a thrilling debate...
I think in general the term "bad person" implies a lack of caring or concern for people other than yourself. Which happens to be one of the signs of being a sociopath. We have terms like sociopath because of our need to quantify and qualify everything around us. We need to know what causes such destructive behavior in hopes of eventually eradicating it from society.
I think we need a breather, though...the tension is so thick, it feels like elevension. While I agree that iamahauntedhamburger made some bad assumptions and conclusions from your previous posts, in the end, he was simply trying to help you with how he related to his father. The fly by night conclusion that your dad isn't a sociopath seemed, at best, obtuse, considering what lack of information he's had on your life. I think it's safe to say his intentions were not to offend, though.
As to whether or not you should have posted this here. I think it's perfectly healthy and should be encouraged. It's cathartic to talk about our baggage. In life there's very few people that you meet that you get more than a cursory view of their life. Society tells us to keep it to ourselves, everyone has problems, but I think we should be open and honest, and those who want to stay ignorant of your life can do so by simply not reading this thread. Our ability to sway your decision one way or the other is irrelevant. You might make the same decisions when push comes to shove, but maybe you'll have more information as to how to actually handle what you're going to do.
-MillsJROSS
Quote from: Nacho on Tue 23/12/2008 19:08:06
One question from someone who knows 0 about psychology... Does a bad person necesarilly have to be "something"? (Being a sociopath, had a difficult childhood, having "less hormon of whatever glandula", etc...)
Can' t bad people just be bad people?
***I admit it's totally off topic, and I am not refering at all to Meowster' s case...***
I think this is an interesting question.
It is hard to be "bad" in a sense of being wicked to other people. Since most people
do have empathy for others, it is difficult to be cruel to an animal let alone another human being, when you can understand the pain and humiliation that they are feeling. Ironically, one reason I have never attempted to have any kind of "revenge" on my dad by telling his acquantainces the truth about him (besides that I am not a mean or vengeful person of course!) is that as a sociopath he can feel only for himself - and I understand and empathise with the humilation and sorrow he would feel if I destroyed his few connections in life. I couldn't even do that to my dad who is actually pretty deserving of such a thing!
I think we can all think of those moments when we've either felt extreme guilt for hurting someone, or put ourselves in the shoes of others and felt overwhelming sorrow for them.
So it seems VERY unnatural to me that anybody with a fully healthy mental state would WILLINGLY and GUILTLESSLY hurt others, without there being some other psychological factor behind it.
I don't think I've ever met anyone who is truly "bad" without believing there is some underlying psychological factor to it, be it a difficulty to emphathise properly or whatever. I think that we try make a label for any kind of deviance from what we consider normal, healthy social behaviour, and as Mills says, this is so we can avoid, treat or eradicate those with such labels. 'Cos it's destructive behaviour and ultimately benefits nobody. My dad will never be truly happy and neither will anybody involves with him, it's a lose-lose situation.
Oh man, here is a rubbish story: I had a boss who was obsessed with spreading rumours about me and other people. She eventually got sacked for it (we all made a joint complaint, and amonst the complaints raised with her when she was being sacked was that she had told everyone that I had been sleeping around with people in the office!). Even 7 months after this (she's moved away and hasn't even seen me since) she's still obsessed with me! People keep telling me that they've heard I'm pregnant and don't know who the father is, they heard I have incurable STDs, they heard I got fired from my job, they heard a bunch of insane stuff, because she's still obsessed with trying to "get revenge" (revenge is not the correct word though since I never did anything wrong...). I don't think this displays what anybody would consider normal or healthy social behaviour, ie., her obsession with having revenge and her point blank refusal to accept that her behaviour was cruel and unwarranted. In fact instead of assuming responsibility or showing guilt, her reaction to retribution for all of this is anger that she got caught and blaming the victims for telling on her! I'm sure that nobody in a fully healthy state of mind would have even started rumours in the first place, let alone had this reaction when caught.
I didn't even choose to associate myself closely with this woman, we were thrown together in a work environment, yet my brief interaction with her has caused me months and months of stress and misery trying to rebuke all these ridiculous rumours that she's spreading about me. Even the briefest initial encounter with "bad" people can cause bloody months or years of trouble for the "victims". My dad once got obsessed with friend of a friend he met once at a party who he thought he'd seen "laughing" at him. They didn't even speak, but my dad imagined that she'd been having this conversation with her mate about him and snickering and laughing snidely. Maybe she was, I have no idea but it seems unlikely (knowing my dad's paranoia over such things). Nonetheless, they never spoke and never had any contact prior to that or even really after it. Despite this my dad became something of a stalker, found out where she lived and for the next three years tried to do things like break her house windows or pour paintstripper on her car. Every so often something nasty would happen to her and I don't even know if she knew it was on purpose half the time.
So yeah as Mills says,
QuoteWe have terms like sociopath because of our need to quantify and qualify everything around us. We need to know what causes such destructive behavior in hopes of eventually eradicating it from society.
And the reason is because they are the kind of people who do the crap described above :)
I don't think any good or nice person like you or I would do that stuff.
As said, it' s a difficult topic. I think there is a lot to discuss about some of your previous statements (People, of possible, would chose being "good", most people do have empathy, etc...)
I think people will finally do what is better for survival. In the XXIth century survival is almost guaranteed if you follow certain rules of society, probably because of that "people is good". But let' s think in the Nazi Germany in 1939. Survival was based in "following the party", so everybody did. Were all of them sociopaths or "bad"? I don' t think so. Same when somebody is bullied at school, or is the targed of lame jokes. Nobody usually does anything, since "survival" is to laugh of the poor guy who is being beaten by the thug (And sigh in relief for not being him). The example can be pushed forever: In the far west everybody had guns and was socially accepted to use them for saving the life. In the middle ages you could be killed by assaulters in a short walk from a town to another. I don't think people were basically "worse" than us... Only different enviroment.
And what about extreme cases of evil or good? We have examples of that at any period. We had Rudolph HöB, but also Max Kolbe. How does that explain? Some wicked version of the "survival theory" can be applied here as well: The "bad guys" want their genes to survive, and only their genes. The "good guys" want the race to survive, even in danger of their own survival.
If that theory doesn't work... We have gaussian distributions.
Quote from: Nacho
Same when somebody is bullied at school, or is the targed of lame jokes. Nobody usually does anything, since "survival" is to laugh of the poor guy who is being beaten by the thug (And sigh in relief for not being him).
I was bullied heavily at school. And when I was getting beaten up, I certainly didn't have any respect for the standers by who laughed and egged the bullies on... I wouldn't call these standers by sociopaths though... but the bullies themselves could be. I know at least two of my former bullies have gone on to become herion addicts and pretty much fit the description of a Sociopath... Good luck to the lawless cunts, I hope Santa brings them an overdose for Christmas.
On the very rare occasion, somebody would step in, tell a teacher or even try to stand up to the bullies on my behalf... I would like to reserve a place further up the 'Goodness scale' for my helpers than for the people who stood there and laughed.
So it isn't realla a matter of bad and good... it's a sliding scale. And I would suggest that as a general trend* the closer somebody is to the "bad" end of the spectrum, the more likely he or she is to be a sociopath...
*I selected the word 'trend' carefully, because that is by no means a solid rule.
QuotePermanent damage DID occur to me and my sisters, and to my mum, both mentally and physically. From throwing kettles of boiling water at us to grabbing my hair and smashing my face into my mum's face, and pretty much every nasty thing you could think of inbetween. He picked up my baby sisters and threw them at walls if they didn't stop crying. He told my little brothers to hit my mother if she tried to tell them what to do. He threw my little brother into a patch of nettles when he was just a baby. Man, it even extends to outside the family circle - my main memory of keeping dogs was of him torturing them in some way (putting them in plastic bags and spinning them over his head for 'fun', trying to break one dog's neck in the door because he was in a bad mood, locking them in a dark windowless shed for a week with no food or water).
Seriously, had you not said that you would not want to screw things up for your father, I would have offered myself to have people "take care" of your father, brutally and violently (yes, I do know these people). I have not much more to add to this discussion other than that you should avoid trying to reconsile with your father for his sake.
Quote from: Stupot on Wed 24/12/2008 13:43:53
Quote from: Nacho
Same when somebody is bullied at school, or is the targed of lame jokes. Nobody usually does anything, since "survival" is to laugh of the poor guy who is being beaten by the thug (And sigh in relief for not being him).
I was bullied heavily at school. And when I was getting beaten up, I certainly didn't have any respect for the standers by who laughed and egged the bullies on... I wouldn't call these standers by sociopaths though... but the bullies themselves could be. I know at least two of my former bullies have gone on to become herion addicts and pretty much fit the description of a Sociopath... Good luck to the lawless cunts, I hope Santa brings them an overdose for Christmas.
On the very rare occasion, somebody would step in, tell a teacher or even try to stand up to the bullies on my behalf... I would like to reserve a place further up the 'Goodness scale' for my helpers than for the people who stood there and laughed.
So it isn't realla a matter of bad and good... it's a sliding scale. And I would suggest that as a general trend* the closer somebody is to the "bad" end of the spectrum, the more likely he or she is to be a sociopath...
*I selected the word 'trend' carefully, because that is by no means a solid rule.
I never ever understood those people who stand by and watch other kids get bullied. It's sooo wrong. And some of them laugh or egg it on!?? It's insane.
I agree those people are not necessarily suffering from mental disorders and are probably the closest to an entirely mentally healthy cowardly little shite. I think in most cases like that, the people egging on the bullies are just really stupid. Like actually stupid, with a low IQ, and I guess they follow the lead of the bully because it makes them feel accepted in some kind of social circle, and they think it's cool. Like stupid chavs who break stuff or push bins over because they aren't clever enough to realise it's not brave or funny or anything other than utterly retarded.
Vict0r - sorry to get all dark but I was nettled by hauntedhamburger :) people like that aren't worth being "taken care" of though. Why risk tainting your own conscience or risking time in prison just for some worthless arse? I don't think he's likely to keep another animal again in his life, but if he did I would immediately report him to the RSPCA... other than that he's not worth thinking about.