Let's see...
It's been too long that there hasn't been a thread like this, and Kinoko has been worryingly inactive over the past months. Just saw that she was online and thought to start a sort of debate about Star Wars trilogy (I-III not IV-VI).
I just saw the 3rd part and quite frankly it was BAD! Not even entertaining. Lucas has grown old it seems. Acting was bad, music was not top notch as it shuold be by Williams, and the story pretty muc hsucked big time with cliches all along and things that simply were there for anyone to see and think about hours before happening. :p
Discuss !
I agree with you Nik, and I also found them to be really boring at times. (And I watch Star Trek for god's sakes!)
The third one was probably better than the second one, with all that mush in it.
3 was certainly the best, but there were bits that were VERY boring.
also unfortunately, they seemed more like cashcow advertisements for the merchandise than actual films like the original trilogy
I've never been a big Star Wars fan, so the third film didn't disappoint me. It didn't really interest me at all, it was quite deeply boring.
It was dull, flat and poorly acted. The potential interesting development of Vader was handled poorly. Key events seemed rushed and many actions felt unmotivated - particularly the death of the princess.
The cinematography was uninspired, and the transitions seemed to be thrown in as self-parody. The visual effects were gaudy and I found the space battles immensely tedious.
Hey,have you noticed this.
Help me,but i think i am right.
Anakin Skywalker was a boy when he abandoned his mother.
On the beggining of the second part,he says its been ten years since,and in his conversation with Padme.(And we can see it on him)
The he goes looking for his mother and his old flying master says she took off with someone who made her free and married her(That was couple of years when Anakin left i think).And,that she has kids.
When Anakin goes to his stepdads,he finds his halfbrother who will be a guardian of his son Luce in the future.
Now,i want someone to explain to me,how did his half brother become so big,with beard and a girlfriend in lets say.....8 years?Bigger than him actually.
Meaby Lucas is really getting older!!!
I somehow found the 3rd one to be the worst of all! The development was not there really or it was really weak.
Acting was really bad.
Visually it was nothing special compared to the previous two (meaning that although it's been 6 years or something from No. 1 still the technology seemed a tad the same...)
The transition between having guilts and being a good jedi to being a bad one and actually doing all those abnormal and awful things was sooooooo fast. From one sec to the next
The fact that Anakin was the one who led his own destiny, is soooo much reminded every time, that it bothered me quite a lot. It appears that the audience wanted a commentary 'on the spot' about everything that was happening as they couldn't understand it on their own :p
There is treason everywhere but only the good, white, guys remain truthful to the republic and the good ways of the jedi. Plus a black guy who unfortunately was not a jedi... hmmm... (Not really a political comment though, just an observation...)
I was hoping to find out more about the Sith but found out nothing really. The first 2 were intriguing as the name Sith are mentioned and it teases you to find out more, but the more part is not there on the 3rd and last part.
I felt the third episode was written like a computer game. I mean, of course they create computer games of most major action flicks these days, but this is the first where I felt this intention reflected in the film's actual script.
Just look at it and you can see: battling through tunnels; boss fight; chase scene; action scene on some animal; another boss fight; major battle here; major battle there; and another boss fight.
That was just weird.
Other than that, meh, it was okay. The first episode was really teeth-grindingly bad, imho. I mean, it has Jarjar, and it kills the idea of the Force by explaining it through chemistry, and Maul just looks like a stupid Vader-wannabe, and it has this huge fish eaten by an even huger fish, and the podracing doesn't make sense, and it has this home-alone type kiddo who accidentally blows up a star destroyer by pushing random buttons in an X-wing. And it has Jarjar. Who must DIE.
Quote from: Nikolas on Sun 03/09/2006 11:36:44
There is treason everywhere but only the good, white, guys remain truthful to the republic and the good ways of the jedi. Plus a black guy who unfortunately was not a jedi... hmmm... (Not really a political comment though, just an observation...)
I wouldn't have noticed such a thing, but now you mention it... wasn't Samuel L Jackson's character a good guy all the way through??? Did I fall asleep when he turned to the dark side or something?
Which black guy who wasn't a jedi, anyway?
But he died...
I've just remembered that we should thank one of the new trilogy for the worst example of dramatic irony in history. When the Princess and her guard disembark a spacecraft:
"I guess we were wrong. There wasn't anything to worry about after all!"
BOOM!
Yeah I know he died, but he didn't become evil!
(And if you ask me they should kept him alive and had a spin off movie where the council gets corrupted and he gets kicked out, and the goes to kick some ass!! I'd call the film "Sith in a council" great name eh!)
"I'm sick and tired of these mother fuckin' siths in this mother fuckin' spacecraft."
Quote from: lipaoklipa on Sun 03/09/2006 11:29:16Now,i want someone to explain to me,how did his half brother become so big,with beard and a girlfriend in lets say.....8 years?Bigger than him actually.
Firstly, it wasn't Anakin's "half" brother, it was his "step" brother.
Owen Lars (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/owenlars/index.html) is
Cliegg Lars' (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/cliegglars/index.html) child from a previous union. (second paragraphs on both links)
While I must admit that the prequels didn't quite live up the image of perfection I have from growing up with the original trilogy, however I still found them enjoyable.
I still maintain that a LOT of people just found it quick and easy to jump on the "prequels suck" bandwagon rather than actually giving them an honest chance. Sure, some people have legitimate problems with them. However, I would remind everybody reading this that Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi were 20 years established when he took on the prequels. How could he possibly re-create that? It was something I think he knew from the get-go that he couldn't do. So he said, "screw it ... I'm making them MY way" and even though the results weren't what I would have wanted, I respect that decision.
I also maintain that telling a story chronologically (eps 1 - 3) when the true "end" (4 - 6) is already known is
very awkward and I think a lot of people (after episode I) just couldn't connect the dots and found it so dis-jointed that they said, "it sucks" rather than realizing there was a LOT more to come.
Personally ... I think the over-all story was okay. However, I would have liked to see Kevin Smith write the dialogue and Carrie Fisher (yes, Princess Leia) do the script-doctoring. Could have been much better. I have my own interpretation of how I would have liked to see the prequels play out ... but it's pages and pages which I'm not going to type :)
During the second film, my dad fell asleep.
I love them all, and I love the timeline of the books, movies and games.
I liked The Phantom Menance.
Okay, hear me out.
Firstly when I saw it I was about 8 or 9. It had robots in it. Shiny, awesome robots that unfolded in unison and unleeshed death (via bad marksmanship).
Secondly, I remember the experience of seeing it in a cinema with my dad.
Thirdly, I hadn't seen the original films at this point (which I have since seen. The Empire Strikes Back is probably my favourite out of the original 3, it was darker, more plotty. I think.).
Heh, when I was little I didn't connect in my head that the Phantom Menace was Anakin. I only worked it out like a few years later. Perhaps this is a testament to how my judgement of the movie shouldn't be trusted?
I've seen it again more recently, and it STILL has robots in it, so I still like it.
As for Episode 2, I thought it was kinda... perfunctory. It was like Lucas sat down with his writer and said "We have to establish these things in the move. Go nuts."
Episode 3, I haven't seen, as a form of protest. Against what? Well I didn't think I'd like it, so instead of going and complaining afterwards, I decided not to go.
Actually, it's probably true that people fifteen, twenty years older than us said similar bad things about the original Trilogy when it came out :)
While I'll admit they're entertaining to watch (at times), dramatically they're just train wrecks. The 3rd movie, with all of its "big moments" is the worst of the three, though it's really just the final gasp of a disappointing (and pointless) build up.
Let's do some quick numbers here:
Ep 1: pod-race scene - 30-45 minutes in length - relevance to plot: none
Ep 3: rescuing Palpatine from the robot guy - 60 minutes or so in length - relevance to plot: none
Ep 3: massacre of all the Jedi - 5-10 minute montage - relevance to plot: central
Really, Lucas should have started the new trilogy where the 3rd movie picks up. And Anakin's "turn to evil" ... forced much? There was nothing convicing, genuine, or tragic about it. He begame evil because, well, he needed to be evil by the 4th movie, right?
Some of my favorite laughable moments:
Moments after Anakin cuts off Samuel Jackson's arm allowing Palpatine to kill him:
Anakin: Oh no! What have I done! I guess I'm evil now! I'll do whatever you want, just save Padme!
Palpatine (who's randomly changing voice sounds like he's got an uber-loogie stuck in his throat): Uh, OK. Go kill all the children.
Anakin: On it!
After a ridiculous fight over lava, Obi-Wan has the high ground, and Anakin's thinking about jumping for it:
Obi-Wan: Don't try it!
Anakin: I'm better than you think!
*ZAP* Anakin's limbs go flying everywhere ....
After Yoda gives up fighting the Emperor:
Yoda: I failed. I guess I better go hide for a while.
After Anakin's still-smoking body has been "Vader-ized":
Anakin: Where's Padme?
Emperor: Looks like you killed her in your rage.
Anakin: Nooooo!
And on, and on .... And did anyone else get tired of seeing how fast they could progressively animate each CGI sword fights? Talk about boring.
But, to his credit, I guess Lucas accomplished what he set out to do. Making glitzy but empty movies that appealed to kids and allowed him to rake it in on the merchandizing.
Anyway, that's what I think. Apologies for the rant .... ::)
A more realistic ending
Anakin: Where's Padme?
Sidious: Looks like you killed her in all your rage.
Anakin: Shit! I thought that was Obi-Wan!
(pause)
Anakin: And he survived didn't he?
Sidious: Padme didn't.
Anakin: How'd I kill her? I was in some big volcano and she was in labour!
Sidious: Well she's dead anyway.
Anakin: Oh right.
(pause)
Anakin: Shit.
(pause)
Anakin: Coffee?
Sidious: Thank Christ, I thought you'd never ask.
(Anakin and Sidious walk away)
Anakin: How do I, uh... for want of a better phrase... piss in this thing?
Sidious: Why? Do you need one now?
Anakin: Not now.
Sidious: OK, I'll show you the manual later. It's pretty complicated.
Anakin: The first Matrix complicated or ending of Fahrenheit complicated?
Sidious: The first Matrix, I'd say.
Anakin: Thank god for that.
(pause)
Anakin: I thought...
Sidious: Yeah, I know what you mean. I was in a tribute band to Lordi.
Anakin: That explains the face I guess.
Sidious: Yeah.
Anakin: Yeah.
I don't know. I've always loved Star Wars and the new ones were no exception. I thought 2 was the weakest out of all, but I still enjoyed it. I know I'm a minority in this, but I thought they were great.
I also find it funny when people complain about the acting and dialogue in the new trilogy. It makes me wonder if they had even SEEN the original. I mean, Mark Hamill is a CRAPPY actor, as was Carrie Fisher. And dialogue,
"Leia you're my sister"
"I know. Somehow, I've always known" Then why did you KISS him so pationately on Hoth?
and later
"COudl you tell Luke? Is that who you could tell?"
"Hold me"
That whole scene was cheesier than velveeta, and the acting was awful. But I still love the movies for what they are, just as I love the new ones too.
Quote from: EagerMind on Sun 03/09/2006 19:06:20
Obi-Wan: Don't try it!
Anakin: I'm better than you think!
Obi-Wan: I have the higher ground, which gives me a +4 to-hit bonus!
cheesy, but entertaining: http://www.the-editing-room.com/?script=revengeofthesith
Truth be told, ALL the Star Wars films are pretty bad. But I like IV - VI because I was a kid when I saw them and when I watch them now, I always revert to kid-mode. Fact of the matter is, light-sabers, robots, and Jedi powers are pretty cool. Show them to kids and they'll love it. But I just can't watch the new films without judging them like all films I've seen as an adult. And that is... that they're baaaaad (but they're for the kids, yeah?).
Unrelated note: Anybody watched the series Taken? It's rubbish.
My star wars experience is very small, I haven't seen the originals, except the first 30 minutes of a new hope. I have seen the phantom menace, as well as the second one in theatres. I am probably in the utter minority here, but I liked Jar Jar. He's no worse then a Adam Sandler movie, and is quite delightfully silly.
My biggest gripe with Episode 3 was the same gripe I had with POTC 2. Pacing. I felt that scene changes were too frequent. It started to jerk me around a bit, and I don't like that. I like for scenes to keep going until they've done what they're supposed to, and then you can change to another one. Ep 3 fell flat on this point, in my opinion.
That having been said, I enjoyed the movie, because when all is said and done, it's still just a movie. Better just to sit back and try to have fun than to go, "Gruh, this movie sucks because of blah blah blah...omg lolz!!1"
THIS JUST IN:
Star Wars: The Clone Wars (in 3D animated)
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809991325/video/7744414
The whore (freudian slip?) whole Star Wars thing is becoming one big joke to me.
Well yeah, who needs actors.
Seriously though, this is a delayed april fool's right?
:'(
Ep 1: Great
Ep 2: Quite good
Ep 3: "NNOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOOooooo!!!!!"
I saw Ep 1 2 3 and thought they were decent from a "Yay! Special Effects!" perspective. But every performance was cardboard. Including Natalie Portman, Sam Jackson, and Ewan McGregor. This wasn't their fault because Lucas neither respects his actors nor gives them the opportunity to breathe life into their performances. He just tells them "stand there. swing light sabre this way. smile. say the line. nothing more." My friends and I pretty much laughed our asses off at the dialogue of Ep 3.
People say things such as "Lucas is getting old" or that he's losing his touch. But the only good Star Wars film he directed was "Star Wars: A New Hope". That was before the world discovered him and let him get so full of himself. He actually had something to prove. (sort of like the Wachowskis and how the first matrix movie was excellent.... and now they're doing Speed Racer....)
The best Star Wars movies were directed by Richard Marquand and Irvin Kershner. Lucas is a great producer but HORRIBLE with actors. He's honestly one step up from Uwe Boll as far as getting a good performance from an actor. (that seems like a bold statement but I'm not referring to his stories, his filmmaking, or his technical know-how. Merely his ability to draw out a good performance.) I think he doesn't pride himself on directing and feels no obligation to effect your emotions one way or the other. I'd hate to see what the acting looked like if he didn't have access to A list celebrities.
Having said all that.... Lucas is the world's best film producer. I wish he had handed off Ep 1 - 3 to a young director with something to prove. Brian Singer would have made them so much better for instance. Or Peter Jackson. Or any of the directors of the Harry Potter movies. Anybody really.
Lucas also didn't pen the scripts for the first three movies but rather collaborated with Brackett and Kasdan (in spite of what credits might say about the first film, I fully believe they penned all three together). What we see when Lucas makes a go by himself is an utter train-wreck of a script, poor direction, and a complete over-emphasis on style over substance. When comparing the two sets of films, it's not hard to see which people were responsible for making the original trilogy as admired as it is today: Kasdan, Brackett, Kershner, Marquand.
I think Lucas tends to be very sensitive to criticism and thin-skinned regarding contrary opinions. He shields himself against criticism of his latest films by saying that at the time of their releases even the original Star Wars and Indiana Jones were critically panned. It could be that that he misremembers the reception of these films because he dwelled so heavily on the occasional negative review rather than the multitude of positive ones.
Following ESB, Lucas had enough success that he could surround himself with sycophants rather than collaborators and nobody ever told him when his ideas were bad. Get rid of Kurtz bring in MacCallum.
When I think of Star Wars I always think of the original 3 movies. That is the base. All other movies, comic books and video games are accessories: They can make the Star Wars realm look better but also worse. The latter was certanly the case with the new movies.
This new project does have potential since episode 3 was pretty much 3D rendered anyway (Episode 3-D). They can make a gazilion more SW movies this way, but does the public really need that...
Was Hayden Christensen's performance better in Jumper, though? He's also cast as the lead role in Neuromancer. I guess he's stuck in those sci-fi pulp movies.
Short but interesting comment by Mark Hamilton on Star Wars at 3:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W7paueNuEc
I haven't seen Hayden give a good performance but someone told me he was great in Shattered Glass. It's entirely possible he's a decent actor. Even though I couldn't stand him in Star Wars I blame it on Lucas' oppressive directing style.
In general, hype translates to disappointment.
It was exactly the same with the first three (IV-VI). Most of you were probably a bit young at the time to get the full impact, but there were billboards everywhere, ads on TV, you turn on the radio for 5 minutes and you'll hear someone talking about it -- people were standing in 1/4 mile-long lines to see it. It was madness. Everyone expected it to be the greatest experience on God's green earth, and in the end it wasn't much more than a bunch of cowboys in space.
I maintain that the main reason Star Wars is regarded as one of the ultimate movie classics isn't because of its story, or dialogue, or acting, or direction, but because of its advertising. Everyone who was anybody went to see it. Plus, all the baby-boomers were just the right age to appreciate it.
I disagree, Emerald. I found the originals to be genuinely entertaining space cowboy fests. The new ones? No.
Any movie with Han Solo in it is going to be superior to any movie without him (provided he shoots first, or course).
Quote from: skuttleman on Sun 11/05/2008 17:50:36
Any movie with Han Solo in it is going to be superior to any movie without him (provided he shoots first, or course).
Witness sucked fat juicy balls...
(Edit: Unless by 'Han Solo', you meant the character, not Harrison Ford himself. I momentarily got them confused :P)
I'll take Emeralds word on it. For Ep 5 and 6 anyways.
Another factor besides the lack of Kasdan's collaboration, is how much Lucas ripped off Akira Kurosawa. Hidden Fortress is said to be the inspiration for New Hope so maybe the new movies sucked so hard because he tried to do something original? Or were they copies of bad movies this time? Either way I'll take Kurosawa any day. I'll take Sergio Leone (who also copied Kurosawa) with bad dubbing any day. Lucas? It better be damn glitzy and full of speedy things.
Quote from: Emerald on Sun 11/05/2008 19:11:39
Unless by 'Han Solo', you meant the character, not Harrison Ford himself. I momentarily got them confused :P)
I meant Han Solo the character, not Harrison Ford the actor.
Han Solo wasn't in Ep 1 -3 because he was busy looking for his wife. Its a fact.
WIFE FORCE ONE!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9GwtRsOYSI)
Quote from: skuttleman on Sun 11/05/2008 19:17:21
I meant Han Solo the character, not Harrison Ford the actor.
I never liked Han Solo. He always came on a bit strong for my tastes... Every single line seemed to be to the tune of "Look at me, I'm a handsome devilish rogue"
Witness is awesome.
Also, I think that one of the main reasons Star Wars (the original trilogy) was so successful was it's parallels to traditional mythology, most notably Lucas's deliberate use of Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces) This produced a instantly recognisable and enjoyable story, which is why so many hold it as a classic - it does use classic structure after all.
Don't believe me? Check it out. (http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/sffilm/mmswtab.html)
The newer films didn't follow this as much, instead being caught up in their own universe and mythology. And without decent structure or traditional elements, Lucas falls flat. Unless of course he has his amazing, realistic and non-wooden dialogue to fall back on!
Oh wait.
Some of those are a stretch. ( instead of following the formula I think he just ripped off other media ) I wonder which one of those cliches was going to be the war of Wookies. I mean do you really want ALL movies to have something similar to entering the belly of a whale? Or fighting a dragon? I dunno.
I must say episode 6 is the best like the galactic war episodes more than the we're only 3d ones.
Quote from: evenwolf on Sun 11/05/2008 21:02:17
Some of those are a stretch.
I agree that some of them are a bit of a stretch, but Lucas has said that he tried to follow this structure for the OT.
And of course not all successful stories follow this, but you'd be suprised at how many do. Not every step is taken literally of course, but "fighting the dragon" is a common step in most films, albeit in a different format.
I admit I haven't looked extensively into it, but from what I could see in my Scriptwriting class there are common threads - Star Wars being an example that frequently popped up.
Quote from: Dualnames on Mon 12/05/2008 10:50:51
I must say episode 6 is the best like the galactic war episodes more than the we're only 3d ones.
What?
Quote from: evenwolf on Sun 11/05/2008 16:25:35
I haven't seen Hayden give a good performance but someone told me he was great in Shattered Glass. It's entirely possible he's a decent actor. Even though I couldn't stand him in Star Wars I blame it on Lucas' oppressive directing style.
I cannot stand him, but I will admit he was really good in Shattered Glass. I was genuinely surprised. I think he's a lot like Leonardo DiCaprio in that respect. He CAN be talented, but he doesn't have to be to get jobs, so why make the effort?
I am of the opinion that I-III are not as good as IV-VI because they lack the cheek that the original trilogy had. Everybody in the original movies knew that they weren't making the next Lawrence of Arabia and you can tell. In I-III, everything is utterly serious, and that is where they failed. The only thing I liked about them is that Ewan McGregor does a good Alec Guiness.
Quote from: jetxl on Mon 12/05/2008 17:46:10
Quote from: Dualnames on Mon 12/05/2008 10:50:51
I must say episode 6 is the best like the galactic war episodes more than the we're only 3d ones.
What?
Well I wanted to say that return of the jedi is the BEST and that the new ones are cool but I have that thing about fakish sci-fi effects.