How should a good GUI look/feel like?Ã, ??? Think of the most efficient and practical graphical interface.Ã, If many people would answer, this thread might be used as a refrence for designing a good gui.
My idea is that the best gui is no gui. Using single clicks, double clicks and probably no inventory (but somewhat diffrent way around) might be intersting and efficient.
I liked the way Ecstatica worked. You just carried one thing in one hand, and that's it. While essential items like the weapon, the journal were kept nearby.
The way sierra adventure games (ie king's quest) displays the text seems very nice. You can play around with positions giving more freedom, and diversity to the speech.
The colour coded speech of lucasarts is also interesting.
Are icons better than writing verbs? (an image of an eye versus "look at"). Is that @overhotspot@ label nicer than just writing nothing at all?
Is it better to have many diffrent icons for each type of cursor/action, or just one cross for all actions.
Whoever played indiana jones 4, would see that in the beginning of the game indy goes trough an ordeal finding some statue. But the gui there is only a text that appears above the mouse cursor. That part of the game is only played by using left and right clicks. Left, by default, is look at. And right is action, but things that have no look at interaction are used with left click, and things that cannot be used ar looked at with right. Therefore the actions intermingle. Look at becomes use, and use becomes look at, etc.Ã, ;D
What about the inventory? Should an inventory be visible from the game (lucasart style), or should a new window appear containing the inventory items, and only the current/selected inv item appear from the game (sierra style)?
[edit] I think this thread should have been posted in the "Adventure related...."
I think it depends on the player really. If there was an easy way to isolate the GUI from the game. i'd give them the user interface they'd like to use. You know? Some games just work better with a gui...or at the very least, a GUI adds a convincing effet to the whole gaming experience. when done right, in my most humble opinion of course ;-).
If you do add a gui, I wouldn't really look for a standard per se. I believe that in games, the GUI should reflect the game's theme and overall feeling. And Some different types of GUI apply better to certain types of games. It seems anyway :-).
Personally, I like the verb-coin. If you do it right, it doesn't pull the player from the game as much as a boxed GUI does. When I play games with a verb-coin I feel more like that character and get into the game more. Another thing about a verb coin is that you can be really creative with it. I remeber one member made his GUI come of from the side in the style of a wrist watch on an arm. From there you could can save, exit, or go though your inventory. GUI's arn't just a feature of the game, they are a key role as the player will be using them quite often. Creativity is key, but so is simplicity.
I fell in love with the Larry 7 interface. Ease of point and click PLUS flexibility of the parser. Brilliant.
I still have problems with my GUI, all I can do rigth now is copy the GUI of others :-[
But the GUI i prefer most is the one from monkey island and indiana jones, for me those are the best, if i am rigth you people call it the verb GUI.
sorry for my poor english, I try to sound interesting but I fear I cant
"sorry for my poor english, I try to sound interesting but I fear I cant" well just that sounded interesting enough ;-)....hehe.
Don't worry about your poor english, I've seen much worse than yours :-) you can get your message across and that's all that matters. ;-)
I like GUI's where you just press the mouse buttons and it switches the icons. When you have to constantly go back and forth to get which action you want, it annoys me. And I think that seeing the icons (eye, hand) differ in each game would be cool, it would add originality.
I agree with MystikShadows that the gui should be adapted to the game. For example, you can't have a gui with pretty flowers in a game about the life of the vampire. But then again, you can't have a blood filled gui with horrid icons for aaa. you get the point. :P
What I have seen is that people find it much easier with "walk to", "look at", "talk to", etc... than with icons. Also, I have never seen an icon with a verb underneath (simmilar to a windows icon). Text is much easier to read, deal with, but icons offer diversity. For example, a hand can be "pick up", "use", "push", "pull", "open", "close" in the same time. While to have it all in verbs you use "interact" (dull) or have it separated "move", "open/close", "use/get".
I think images are more abstract, mean more things but harder to understand. And anoying if they are annimated. While text is easy and straightforward, but not very exciting.
Orik, some people find accents very interesting :P Doesn't matter. The thing is, if I understand what you are trying to say, then it's okay. Only philologist or perfectionists need perfect spelling/writing. I don't care :P Use icons instead of verbs, for example := It is also said that copying is a secret form of respect.
What I DON'T LIKE about lucasarts gui is that is very simple, too simple, and covers half the screen.
I think, if you have less buttons visible, and more backgrounds (graphics) help you "live" the game more. It's nicer to have a text on the background and read it from there, rather than have three lines, and click look at to see what the hell that suppose to mean.
How many verbs? That old game, mysterious house(mansion?) :P or whatever the name was had 15 actions. Monkey Island I had 12. And the classic ones had 9. "Give" is not very usefull, since you can say "use obj on something." How many times you have to use something on someone, and not to give him anything?
I like the three-way mouse-based gui of Discworld.
I never played Larry, but I think I know what you are talking about (the parser, ie like a terminal where you say "talk", "use", etc...). What about, typing talk and mouse cursor changes.
Also, another thing I have seen is that I dislike when I have to switch between mouse and keyboard. Is nice to have some keyboard shortcuts, but distastefull when somethings are done using keyboard and others using mouse only. Adventure games are mouse-only games (most of them at least :P)
What I am thinking is having a game with no guis whatsoever. Only mouseclicks. All items should appear somehow near, above, below the mouse cursor and can be selected using the mouse wheel for example (or cycle with left right middle).
Even if people say that they prefer one thing for one game and another for another game, or one likes one thing another another thing :PP everybody has something in common in liking specific elements of an adventure gui.
A good GUI is a gui that makes a people who sees it the first time say "WhOA, nice dude GUI dude!"
I think what you're looking for is the Broken Sword (1&2) GUI. It was right click to examine, and left click to walk/interact. The cursor changed to reflect what action would be performed on the object when you clicked on it. So, if you could pick up the item, the cursor would change to a hand picking up. The inventory was a thin bar on the top of the screen. Its most definitely one of the most unobtrusive GUIs I've ever come across. However it also made the game quite easy - something to bear in mind when designing a GUI. If it's too simple, the game may not provide a challenge to the player.
Quote from: Rui "Puss in Boots" Pires on Thu 23/12/2004 07:03:51
I fell in love with the Larry 7 interface. Ease of point and click PLUS flexibility of the parser. Brilliant.
Could you post a screenshot of it for us non-LSL7gamers? ;)
thank you everyone for posting.
I think my question is too general, I will try refining it and will come back. I've seen that not all people can answer big questions like what is a good game, what is a good gui, etc. Cause they're to general, too big. One needs bits and pices to work on first then put them all together.
I believe that the questions has already been answered by Oliver. Obviously, one has to try diffrent approaches see what people like best. And what people like best is the best gui :P
I think larry 7 has some sort of a parser (ie you type things in, not shure though).
I can talk only for myself, but I don't like:
1. obsolete crap on gui, such as "push", "pull", "open", "close" and so on, especially when they are needed only 2-3 times for a whole game. Variety of commands also make "confused! try-everything-on-everything" moments in adventure game a real nightmare. It's much simpler to just try to use, look and talk with everything. Additional interactions make this much more frustrating, which leads to surfing for a walkthrough, which I consider as ruining the game. 90% of adventures I have played had moments where my logic ran out at some point. And the games I still solved without external help, were the best, as far as I remember.
2. GUI that's difficult to use. Like when action icons are crippled together or I have to move mouse all over the screen to select next action. Or they are designed badly (either size or colors) and I must spend extra time for getting the action right.
3. Verbcoins and other GUIs that have stupid icons. Monkey Island III was one of them - I never really memorized what each icon did. Good that statusbars are invented, which made it easier! Sam'n'Max too, though it wasn't that bad. Just these mode cursors were a bit confusing.
4. Pointless duplicate actions. Some games have for example duplicate icons. They act differently, but are basically for same thing. "Examine" and "Look at". Or "Use" and "Move". Such things should be done with only one action. Even "Pick up" and "Use" could be just one, though in many games they are not.
5. Doubleclick usage, especially when it's not noted anywhere, could ruin a new game right at the start.
So!
Good gui, in my opinion
- has also a statusline.
- is nicely readable, mouseover animations are very handy too,
- depends on game, but most used actions should be shortcutted some way, like look (or use/talk) for right mouse button as default and walk-to for left mouse button as default (for LucasArts GUIs, and just as LucasArts actually did in many games)
- additional keyboard shortcuts always rule. But they must remain shortcuts, like numbers 1-9 for actions or qwerty or something. Not split all around teh keyboard.
- no gui at all (LMB & RMB only) is somewhat too dumbed down. It works in many cases, but takes away freedom to try things. It's forcing player to interact everything in pre-determined way and this steals the joy of exploration. The game becomes an interactive movie/cartoon. What fun is in this?
- nice gui won't cover up more than 30% of game screen. Even this is too much.
- custom (but working!) actions are always cool. Like "fight" and "hide" in KGB. Or mood-based dialogs in Countdown (and some other games). In this case, extra action should always provide some result. Otherwise, it just an extra frustration, as I described in point 1.
Many AGS games use "unhandled event" or NO events at all if player isn't doing what creator wanted/hoped him to do. This isn't so much about GUI, but worst thing in my opinion. Whatever you have on your GUI, the game must respond to every thing player did. Even if using/looking something isn't neccesary to finish the game, a descriptive (or even better - FUNNY!) message as a result should always be what the player gets for wasting his/her time trying this.
Quote from: Developer on Sat 25/12/2004 01:00:09
Quote from: Rui "Puss in Boots" Pires on Thu 23/12/2004 07:03:51
I fell in love with the Larry 7 interface. Ease of point and click PLUS flexibility of the parser. Brilliant.
Could you post a screenshot of it for us non-LSL7gamers? ;)
Have a look at http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/p,3/gameId,381/gameShotId,18006/ (unfortunately, it's in German, but it's the only one I found). Basically, when you click on something, a menu comes up with a set of "obvious" (sensible) verbs, in this case (see above)
ansehen (examine) and
benutzen (use), which opens a sub-menu containing all your inventory items, other hotspots can have more
obvious verbs, a door for example might also have
open and
knock. The clever part however is the last menu entry
andere... (others...), which let's you enter a verb of your choice, liek this http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/p,3/gameId,381/gameShotId,18009/ . For example
push if you want to push something (not that "obvious" most of the time), as you can see in the screenshot, it also lists verbs you typed before (and that the game recognized) in the menu for fast access, like
zerbrechen (break).
The interface for conversations is similar, see http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/p,3/gameId,381/gameShotId,18010/ (might not be 100% work safe). You have a list of conversation topics like
Kleidung (clothes), etc. and again
Andere... (others...) at bottom, again letting you enter a topic of your choice.
All in all, very nice for the flexibility, but it can be frustrating, when you have to "guess the verb" like in old text adventures, or when you're so stuck that you resort to trial and error, and never know if you already tried everything with everything. It was nice for the last (sic) game of the series, as
LSL1 also had a parser, but I don't miss the flexibility in other games.
However, I wanted to address something else: Minimizing mouse action (movement and clicks). The GUI should help you tell the computer what you want to do with minimal effort, in an application, just as in a game. Actually, that's one of the reasons why we switched from parsers to pointers, sacrificing flexibility for simplicity, but I'm digressing...
I think you should be able to try a variety of action on an object without having to move your mouse there and away over and over again. For example verb coins (
Full Throttle, CMI) or pop-up menus (
LSL7,
Touche) or one-click (
Broken Sword,
The Dig) all do that nicely. The Sierra interface (
LSL5,
SQ5) also handles this well, but I dislike it because of other reasons, for example having to select
Walk explicitly in order to walk somewhere, instead of having walk as the default action if the selected area isn't a hotspot, especially if it's a scrolling screen. Or because of the cumbersome way it handles the inventory via a seperate screen, but more about inventories later. So the only one that seems to be a problem in this respect is the SCUMM bar (
MI2,
Indy 4), where you would have to click on a verb, then click on the object, click on a different verb, click on the object again. However LucasArts avoided this problem by providing us with keyboard shortcuts for the verbs for easy switching. I don't know how many people use this, but I catch myself using them all the time, but perhaps I'm just impatient, so without using the mouse you can cycle through all the verbs you need, and other nice short cuts, like
Walk being the default, and "sensible" action being available with a right-click. The hotkeys are even more useful in
Loom, so that you don't have to click on the notes on your distaff all the time.
Maniac Mansion and
Zak McKracken were still lacking in the interface department, but for every LucasArts games afterwards the interface worked fine, the only problem being that it blocke a huge part of the screen. More problems do arise IMHO, if not all of these shortcuts (hotkeys, left-click default, right-click default) are present, especially the hotkeys for the verbs are missing from many AGS games that use that kind of interface, making them a bit more cumbersome to use, than they'd have to be.
My next point is about eliminating "redundant" verbs. I used to be very suspicious of one-click interfaces, until playing
The Dig and seeing that games with a one-click interface can be just as hard (if not harder) than those with mutliple verbs. However, I think designers have to be more careful with them. For example, even more frustrating than the try-everything-on-everything-moments that
InCreator described is IMHO if the game does something you didn't think of, especially if the obvious action isn't always obvious, for example, what should left-clicking a pistol do? Arm it? Load it? Fire it? Take it apart MacGyver-style keeping only the barrel and the spring for use in some other puzzle? The latter being quite frustrating. Another thing to be careful about is the loss of semantics, as I said, the obvious action isn't always obvious, and less-obvious ones might become inpossible, for example if pulling and pushing crates aren't different actions, crate moving possible are quite hard to realise (O.K., that's not neccessarily a bad thing ;) ) or what about the
Push Sophia puzzle in
Indy 4 (if you know what I mean, I'm talking about "convincing" her to volunteer for the knife tosser), I wouldn't know how to realise that with
The Dig's interface. However, most of the time a handful of verbs should suffice, but what you need and what you don't depends on your game. If you only use
Open/
Close for doors and drawers, you can probably merge them into
Use, however if you find more creative uses for them (
Open radio,
Open patient,...) or a creative use for
Use door, they might very well be worth keeping. An individual GUI also helps to give your game personality, like the
Zip in
LSL5 or
Kick in
Full Throttle ("Ben is a tough biker..." := ). Or if
Give is merged into
Use how do you make the distinction between
Give gun to police officer and
Fire gun at police officer, but again that might not apply to your game.
Which brings me to inventories in general, as verbs vanish, inventory based puzzle become more important than the already are (if you already
Examine and
Use everything because those are your only verbs, it's hard to hide a puzzle there), therefore the inventory is just as important as the verbs (if not more) and should be accessible with minimum effort and large enough to reduce scrolling, either on the main screen (
MI2,
Touche,
Broken Sword) or as quickly as your context-senstive menus/verb-coins/whatever (
LSL8,
Full Throttle, CMI). Using seperate screens is sub-optimal IMHO (The Dig, SQ5).
I think of puzzles to belong to one of three "classes": verb-based (finding a hotspot, and using the right verb or combination of verbs or number of verbs on it), item-based (using inventory items with other inventory items to get better inventory items or using inventory items with objects or people to accomplish something) and dialog-based. With the first two already covered, I'd like to draw your attention (if you're still reading this and got any attention left) to dialogs. Unfortunatley there hasn't been much discussing on this in this thread so far. I wonder if I should start a new thread over at Adventure-related stuff...? The default seems to be LucasArts-like multiple choice trees, with your options being dialog lines (MI2, Full Throttle). Admittedly, they work fine most of the time, but can be minor spoilers when options pop up you never would have thought about and it usually comes down to simply exhausting all dialog options. But what alternatives are there? Using hard-wired conversations without user interaction surely is a possibility (Loom, LSL1), but limits dialog-based puzzles to giving people things. If you have multiple choice you could also list topics instead of lines (LSL8, The Dig), maybe even with your whole inventory as topics as well (Broken Sword), but is that better or worse? Having a parser would be yet another option, but is that still up-to-date? Any other ideas? Discussion appreciated!
Hmmm, somehow this post has grown a bit from a simple three bullet list in my head to this monster. I hope you're still there and I didn't ramble too much. :P
Quotebut I dislike it because of other reasons, for example having to select Walk explicitly in order to walk somewhere, instead of having walk as the default action if the selected area isn't a hotspot, especially if it's a scrolling screen
Yeah, that annoys me too in a lot of games. It's easy to avoid, so please, people, start doing it.
QuoteUnfortunatley there hasn't been much discussing on this in this thread so far. I wonder if I should start a new thread over at Adventure-related stuff...?
Babar opened a similar thread about talking puzzles recently: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=18419.0
Regardless of the GUI, I believe that keyboard shortcuts are absolutely necessary.
(plus they're easy to add for the programmer, hint hint. I have seen far too many AGS games that omit keyboard shortcuts)
Any lucasarts-like GUI becomes much easier to use if you can just press a key (say 'O' for open) then click, instead of moving the mouse back and forth.
The same goes for verbcoins, actually.
Consider - all Sierra and Lucas classics have keyboard shortcuts. They did do market research, and found it a good idea.
Quote from: Developer on Sat 25/12/2004 01:00:09
Quote from: Rui "Puss in Boots" Pires on Thu 23/12/2004 07:03:51
I fell in love with the Larry 7 interface. Ease of point and click PLUS flexibility of the parser. Brilliant.
Could you post a screenshot of it for us non-LSL7gamers? ;)
http://www.btinternet.com/~ctswin/lsl7gui.JPG
In case anyone forgot after such a long period, I checked some old threads and this appears to go under the category of a GTD (Game Theory Discussion). Maybe you should move it and add the GTD Label Thingâ,,¢ to your thread.
In that case, better add a link to this thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?PHPSESSID=85c9e68ac28e6c781e02d1f9b6164495opic=15845.0).
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=17812.0
Is a good one to read
As statusbars seems to be generally liked and accepted (don't worry, I like them too, I just have a question about them), what to do about hotspots which would usually be "scenery", and for which the fact that they are a hotspot alone is like a neon sign saying "you're going to have to do something with this"?
For example in
Two of a Kind which I was playing when I thought about this...
Spoiler
...there is grass behind the Gilberts' store. Of course, there is also grass everywhere else (the farm, the bar,...), but there it isn't a hotspot, as it wouldn't be in most other adventure games, so I knew that I was very likely that I would have to cut grass or fertilize grass or something during the course of the game.
That wasn't the first time I noticed something like that though, I'm sure I've seen it in commercial games before, but I can't seem to remember them. Other examples would be appreciated.
So, is this something to be worried about? Is there a way to avoid this? Making the hotspot appear only once you know you have to interact with it would proably be much worse, so that's out of the question, I think. Anything else?
well there is the alternative to add more 'unnecesary' hotspots, so that the player would stop thinking in terms of 'this is a hotspot so it has to be useful in the game'..
of course, this solution could become annoying if used without measure, as the screen could be invaded by hotspots :P
For me , the best Gui is that kind of Gui that you show to a person who never played any kind of point and click games, and see her working with it.
My favorite kind of Gui is from the game The Longest Journey. Another gui i like was from Monkey Island 3 .
I like the Lucas Arts gui the best, especially with the statusbar. It feels like you control the actions if you see what's going to happen.
One problem is which verbs he include, the 'push' and 'pull' verbs are a bit redundant. Maybe a distinction between 'look' and 'examine' for the distinction between a glance, and a thorough inspection would be nice.
Coin Guis can work, but only if they work fast. In 'A Tale of Betrayal' for example had a 'slow' coin, and that bugged the hell out of me.
Another thing I like about the Lucas Arts guis is the fact that your inventory is always visible, so you can see at any moment which things you carry around.