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Yet another shooting--this one in Connecticut.

27 killed (including the gunman, who, I think, took his own life).  But 20 of the dead (i.e. the majority) are KINDERGARTEN CHILDREN!!!  This makes the act even MORE horrendous!

Honestly, what is the USA coming to?!?!?!

The same thing the rest of the world is (but everybody seems to forget the rest of the world is just as shitty).

It's the [shitty-ass] world we live in.  And it sucks.

Yeah, there was just a guy in China that slashed up 22 kids with a knife. So, not necessarily a North American thing.

It's a tragedy for sure. I think of all the little folks that won't be going home to their families and it just makes me sick.

After reading some articles on the internet I found out that we are very far from predicting who can become a mass murderer. There is simply not enough background behaviours of the mass murderers to even link them together. The only aspect of the phenomenon that is similar is that this people plan out the executions way before the actual event. They often seclude themselves months (Breivik took a year) prior to the executions, training mentally and phisically for it. The other common behaviour is what they call the pseudo-commando attitude. They gather a large arsenal, do it in plain day light and don't have a escape plan. They know they will die. It's a last mission kind of thing.
Similar characteristic among the mass murderers is being male.
I also learned that there are hundreds of scientists studding the phenomenon and their best advice is to warn the authorities if we suspect seclusive behaviour from someone. "Humans are social beings". "Hiding from others for long extents of time are signs of depression".

So, we are fucked! There's no way we can predict that the guy that we see every day doing his normal job and he even smiles at us at time, can or cannot be the next mass murderer.   

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Fri 14/12/2012 22:16:29
The same thing the rest of the world is (but everybody seems to forget the rest of the world is just as shitty).

It's the [shitty-ass] world we live in.  And it sucks.

I'd like to offer some other ideas in the hat!

1. It may be a shitty ass world we live in, but we make the world, and we are the world (no relation to Michael Jackson). We form the societies which turn the world into a shitty place to live in. Something to think about I guess.

2. It may be a shitty ass world, but as it appears the gun problem seems very predominant in the USA where it's legal to own a gun. It's not legal over here (Greece) and our experience and education doesn't follow the same ideals that apparently can be found in the US in regards to guns! :-/

Avoiding to face reality won't change anything...

No, the rest of the world is not just a shitty. Standards of living vary widely throughout the world, and this is an example. There are certainly countries we could take a cue from on how to handle such people before they escalate. You don't need to identify individual people per se to offer support to the stressed or depressed.

(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/graphics/braceyourselves.png)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/11/117774/2361934-double_facepalm.jpg)

You guys know there is such a theory as the psycho gene right? Where in which your brain alerts to blah blah blah (research it if you want to know!!!).

The problem with America is that anyone, be it British, American or Belgian (anyone) - you can just simply get a gun from the bank or supermarket. The American gun laws are completely fucked and this whole "right to bare arms" crap is bullshit. Unless you think that the cops can't deal with it; there will be a zombie apocalypse or you want to kill someone in cold blood - why have a gun? Take a look around at the many countries that do not have guns and learn something people of America. Unless you want this kind of thing to keep happening over and over. It's just bullshit to be quite frank with you.

"I need to protect myself" - do you, America? Well then. There is something profoundly wrong with your country that, I'm afraid, guns just cannot fix.

When a simpleton cannot even spell their own name, yet own a gun, we cannot deny the fact that we have a problem.

To stay on topic - I give all my love and prayers for the victims of this heinous crime. Their time was not yet. As far as the killer be concerned and trying to understand their motives... It sounds to me like a broken home with a good-for-nothing douche bag rejected by his perfect family and seeked to wreck revenge and take a few more lives as he made himself feel like god (taking lives).

I wish this scum would have shot himself and saved us all the worry and sadness.

Godbless the teachers and children whom lost their lives.

Does this really happen everywhere since all of the world is fucked? This map shows all the school shootings in the last sixteen years... I count forty-five in the US, and fifteen in the rest of the world combined. Draw your own conclusions.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ToHuoOmnXR4/UMyuOMkeJLI/AAAAAAADp6A/hfixOS1I1s8/w497-h373/SchoolShootings.png)

That's an interesting map. But it appears to show the Dunblane massacre in Scotland, which happened in 1996.

Guns are fundamentally problematic because they allow one to murder in a very disconnected way. You pull the trigger and they die. It's akin to pressing a button to make the thing you dont like go away. That, in itself, is a reason they shouldn't be given to civilians.

However, as to the wider problem, there is very little the US can do about gun crime in general, for the following reason:

1) If you want to use a gun to perform a crime, you want it to be untraceable and so you don't use a legal firearm. That would be stupid.
2) It's very easy for a legal gun to become an illegal gun.
3) There are already thousands of illegal guns in circulation which were supported by the legal circulation of the past.
4) Eliminating the legal circulation *now* will do nothing to eliminate the illegal guns already in circulation.

I think eliminating the traffic of legal firearms would stop most massacres like this though. These massacres are usually done by well-to-do, middle class teenagers who can only get a gun via legal means.
But there were about 12,000 gun murders in the US in 2010 and only a hundred or so were due to school shootings.

It's not "fun to insult the US". It's simply a fact that the US is pretty much the only first world country with a lot of third world problems. I know the reason but this thread isn't about that.
I guess if it were much harder to get a gun in general, a lot of the people that people want to protect themselves from wouldn't have a gun either.
And also, if guns are more of a special thing and not an everyday kind of thing like in the US, people are naturally going to be less prone to use and misuse them.

Quote from: Radiant on Sun 16/12/2012 10:41:36
Does this really happen everywhere since all of the world is fucked? This map shows all the school shootings in the last sixteen years... I count forty-five in the US, and fifteen in the rest of the world combined.

I may miss your point here, but I think your example proves only that "school shootings" is a form of violent act highly specific for US, while it does not show anything about violence in the world, nor violence against children. Does your map show violent acts made against children in Africa for instance? And this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis).
I mean, there could be other forms of crazy things people are doing in other parts of world.

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Sun 16/12/2012 13:35:41
I mean, there could be other forms of crazy things people are doing in other parts of world.

So let's look at statistics on that. Based on UNDOC and FBI figures, the amount of homicides per 100,000 people per year is four times higher in the US than it is in Western Europe, and twice as high as that in Syria or Iraq. And that's the average for the US; states like New Mexico or Louisiana have two to three times as many, and this figure has not gone done in the last decade. At some point people need to stop thinking of what could be, and face the facts about what is.

The world is a fucked-up place.  I'm not claiming, nor will I make the claim, that the U.S. is some beacon shining in the darkness.  It's a fucked up country just like the rest of the world.  My point is/was just that it's very popular to insult the USA.  The USA seems to be the Nickelback of the 'countries of the world' genre and people just jump on the bandwagon to insult the USA when shit like this happens.  If I, as a resident of the states, made some of the blanket generalizations about another country the way non-residents make blanket generalizations about the USA I'd just get flamed for being an "typical ignorant american" (which is just another generalization in itself).

There are more [documented] school-shootings in the states than there are in other parts of the world.

We have less tossing of acid in women's faces for refusing an arranged marriage.

We have less people strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing up civilians on buses.

We have less little girls being shot in the face because they want an education.

We have less women being hanged because their ankles showed in public.

We have less homosexuals being murdered for their "sin".

So, yes, we may be top of the hill with tragic events like school shootings but that does nothing to diminish my original point that the world is a fucked up place.  Period.

So yes;

Quote from: Nikolas on Sat 15/12/2012 21:27:28Avoiding to face reality won't change anything...

I couldn't agree more.

Face-palms or no face-palms.

It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

I don't disagree my friend.

I wish I had the answer.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 16/12/2012 14:03:44
There are more [documented] school-shootings in the states than there are in other parts of the world.

We have less tossing of acid in women's faces for refusing an arranged marriage.

We have less people strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing up civilians on buses.

We have less little girls being shot in the face because they want an education.

We have less women being hanged because their ankles showed in public.

We have less homosexuals being murdered for their "sin".

So, yes, we may be top of the hill with tragic events like school shootings but that does nothing to diminish my original point that the world is a fucked up place.  Period.

Ok so awesome. The United States of America, who we are frequented told is the "greatest nation on earth" is better than Pakistan.

It is not popular to point out the failings of the US because we like to be bullies, it's because we are frequently getting American Exceptionalism rubbed in our faces.
If you're going to dub your president the "leader of the free world" and stuff like that you'd better be damn well ready to back it up with facts.

The majority of Americans are lovely people, I am absolutely sure of it without a doubt. But there is no need for guns. Too many cases where people flip out and use them like this imo.

Problem is, because it's such a heated debate they will never change the laws dramatically. The whole thing is too far gone. Hopefully the democrats will be brave enough come up with some changes. In a perfect world guns wouldn't get in the hands of such people. But as Darth says, it isn't a perfect world.

But I don't believe there is a greatest nation on earth.

Nor do I think of the president as the "leader of the free world".

Sounds to me like an individual problem (the "american exceptionalism" being rubbed in your face) in other countries.  Because, in America, on a daily basis I hear NOTHING of our superiority (or the "rubbing it in" other's faces).  I see the VAST majority lamenting the "failings" of our nation and discussing ways to improve and move forward rather than stagnating as we are.  I hear statistics on how our education system is falling FAR behind the rest of the world.  How our technology is now lagging well behind.  How corporations are dominating and getting away with monopolies.  I see hard working people struggling to get by in an economy that sucks.  I see homeless people begging for handouts on EVERY intersection of EVERY street. 

I don't see anything "exceptional" about that. 

So to lump us all together as touting our greatness, simply because of our geographical location, seems a bit silly and should probably be "backed up with facts".

I'm really not going to get into this [pointless] debate again though. 

It's like trying to convince a religious person the sheer folly of religion.

Quote from: önker on Sun 16/12/2012 14:54:55The majority of Americans are lovely people, I am absolutely sure of it without a doubt. But there is no need for guns. Too many cases where people flip out and use them like this imo.

Problem is, because it's such a heated debate they will never change the laws dramatically. The whole thing is too far gone. Hopefully the democrats will be brave enough come up with some changes. In a perfect world guns wouldn't get in the hands of such people. But as Darth says, it isn't a perfect world.

While I agree wholeheartedly with you in principle, I find the notion of "gun control" as the solution completely laughable.  It's not the solution. 

The blame for this event, and others like it, lies not at the feet of "gun control" it lies at the feet of the disgusting mass media corporations. 

They sensationalize the people that commit these crimes and give them the very spotlight they sought in the first place.

Why just kill yourself and vanish as the nobody you are when you can achieve celebrity by committing (or one-upping) a terrible crime?  They can, because the media gives them this fame.

(There's a "viral" article going around supposedly penned by Morgan Freeman, that nails my sentiments on this topic better than I could ever write it, but I don't want to link to it 'cause I'm not sure, yet, that it was actually written by Mr. Freeman).

We can make guns illegal, sure.  It might stop a few crimes.  But in the end it would be no different than the colossal failure that is the "war on drugs".

I actually agree with you, Darth. Though I do find myself being ridiculously optimistic sometimes.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 16/12/2012 15:18:05
The blame for this event, and others like it, lies not at the feet of "gun control" it lies at the feet of the disgusting mass media corporations.

As an aside, and at the risk of sounding a bit apathetic, as a Briton I don't see why this massacre warrants days of front page news over here. If I knew the deceased, those involved, or it was in my community, then obviously I would be emotionally invested. So I guess it's hard to react how people expect you to react when hearing this kind of news, from so far away with little human connection.

I haven't seen any American commentary but I can imagine the sort of bad taste and sensationalism you mean, based upon some ways the BBC has reported it. Just look at this page, "How it Happened (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20738998)", which is a regular feature when this sort of thing happens. Anybody else think this is really unnecessary and kind of morbid? I can't imagine anybody but the detectives and maybe parents would need such in-depth analysis. Showing pictures and videos taken at the time is yet another fave of the media's which is really gratuitous. And the blatant acting by newsreaders to add emotional impact to what they're saying... Fiona Bruce is a great example. Just read the prompt without so many intonations and frowns! Basically I hate watching the news because there's so much negativity all the time. It's because reporting about sad stuff is easier. Not because there is more sad stuff than happy stuff (there probably is, but in reality it's less of a ratio than the news makes out). It's easier because I think negative emotions are easier to elicit than positive ones.

So, calling for tighter gun control will not eradicate the motive for psychos to shoot up a school, there's no two ways about that. After all, a crazed gunman has never had the sole motive of just showing how lax gun laws are. People go on rampages like this because they want to, not simply because they can; although they also must be able to. These two parts, wanting to and an ability to, together may lead to a massacre, but I'm not sure whether they are equally weighted in the equation; which is most important is a matter of opinion.

In any case, it is easier to treat the precipitate for massacres, i.e. gun ownership, than the motive, i.e. psychological disorder leading to volition for murder. We all know from accounts of those who knew these guys that in 9/10 cases you can't predict who's capable of this stuff. Which makes successful identification and treatment nigh on impossible. Basically, all the signs point to America's endemic gunphilia, although I do think that the argument about media coverage does hold good water, as it in part explains the motive which must exist for people to massacre.

It's a no-brainer that less guns can only be a good thing. However Calin makes a good point that licensing less guns will do nothing to decrease the amount of illegal guns. But as far as I know most of these events are carried out with legal guns either owned by the perpetrator or a family member anyway. It's also not a problem that would be solved overnight anyway. Eventually though the amount of illegal guns currently in circulation would naturally decline, provided controls are reviewed, as they degrade or are seized etc.

Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Sun 16/12/2012 12:00:16
Guns are fundamentally problematic because they allow one to murder in a very disconnected way. You pull the trigger and they die. It's akin to pressing a button to make the thing you dont like go away. That, in itself, is a reason they shouldn't be given to civilians.

I own several guns. I go to the range a couple of times a month and spend a lot of money putting holes in paper, and I find it to be very enjoyable. For years now, I carry a gun almost every day (unless I'm going into a federal building or something). And I've never gone on a shooting spree. Nor have any of the recreational shooters I know.

There will always be crazy people. The biggest school killing in the US happened back in the 1920s, and it involved explosives, not guns. People get stabbed, hit with cars, poisoned by loved ones, and so on. I don't care if a crazy person does something stupid, I didn't. I certainly don't won't to be punished for the actions of someone else. If someone drives drunk, should we outlaw cars? If someone pirates movies, should we outlaw the interwebs? Did we outlaw air travel after 9/11? Did London close down the tube forever and all time after the bombings?

Heck, gun crime in the UK went up after the gun ban. You can pass as many laws as you like, but only the law-abiding will obey them. Guns are too easy to get and too easy to make from scratch (seriously, google that. It's amazing how many functional, accurate submachine guns have been made in people's basement!) so there's no putting the genie back in the bottle for this one.

The problem isn't guns. It's America's culture. American spirit, price of freedom, yadda yadda. This kid needed a hug and some serious drugs. Instead he had a disinterested mom, an absent father, and a therapist who wasn't putting in the work required. How do you fix such a thing? I don't know. But I don't think yet another impotent law will do much good. :-\

When I commented on this topic there were only 3 posts about it and I honestly thought that this could lead to a "USA hate thing". I was very cautious not to write anything that would bring such feelings on people that would read it.
Why? Because I read and was part of some debates that went nowhere (religion, politics, the kind...) and did not want to start another.
Second, because like I said, I did some research on the behaviour of the murderers and the people studying it and found that the fact that this people had guns at home (not every cases) does not explain shit about it.
If they didn't have the guns at home they would probably work their way to get them some other place. If it wasn't "easy" to buy them at a store they would work out a plan to get them through different channels (black market, stealing, etc...).
These people plan their killings with 100% dedication. Getting the arsenal to do it is just part of the plan. And for a brain scientist its a secondary aspect of it.
All I can say, based on what I've read, is that we need more "mentalist" kind of agents in the various police forces in the world. Those are people trained to see the obvious that sometimes eludes us because we are so trapped in our little societies.
One of the dangers that I find to be really absurd is the "cult" of being depressed. To some people, being a depressive guy with no joy for anything is a trend and they dress and act so that it's almost cool. Almost. It's plain stupid to me.
People depressed must find help and get treated. There's no other way.
Sorry to people reading this that are going through bad times but it all starts with a depression. And I didn't make this out, I read it from people that actually study the phenomenon.

Ponch:
Your line of argument has an important flaw: the only purpose of guns is to kill or maim people, which cannot be said of any of the other things you listed. Of course we don't outlaw cars or the web or even knives, because they all serve a harmless, productive purpose. Guns don't. (I'm aware that people use guns to control animal populations, but unless everybody who went on a killing spree was a hunter and used only their own hunting rifle, this doesn't count.)

Of course outlawing all guns or at least severely restricting access to them doesn't get rid of the problem, let alone the actual cause. Just wanted to point it out.

Quote from: Ponch on Sun 16/12/2012 21:31:22
For years now, I carry a gun almost every day (unless I'm going into a federal building or something). And I've never gone on a shooting spree. Nor have any of the recreational shooters I know.

May I ask you what made you decide to 'conceal carry'? Just an OT curiosity.

I used to be a sheriff deputy, and carried a glock on my hip for over six years. I have the typical assortment of rifles for hunting and plinking. I can conceal carry but I never have, for fear of two things:

I believe most situations are only escalated with guns. If someone robs me they can have my shit. If I have a gun I might start thinking thoughts and get myself in trouble.

Wearing a gun everyday, I fear I would get too comfortable and forget about it. Possibly misfiring it or leaving it laying around.

That said, I am against gun control in general. If you want to conceal carry go for it. I like my guns for hunting (which feeds my family) and I take my children out and we shoot and they learn to respect guns.

People always want to outlaw "assault rifles", and for the most part, those rifles are just hunting rifles with tactical gear on them. If you lower the magazine capacities, people will just pack more ten round

magazines with them when they do these things. If you outlaw guns, folks will just start using explosives....or some other device. And there are so many guns over here I don't think it would really work anyway.

Quote from: Squinky on Sun 16/12/2012 23:46:56
I used to be a sheriff deputy, and carried a glock on my hip for over six years. I have the typical assortment of rifles for hunting and plinking. I can conceal carry but I never have, for fear of two things:
I believe most situations are only escalated with guns. If someone robs me they can have my shit. If I have a gun I might start thinking thoughts and get myself in trouble.
Wearing a gun everyday, I fear I would get too comfortable and forget about it. Possibly misfiring it or leaving it laying around.
That said, I am against gun control in general. If you want to conceal carry go for it. I like my guns for hunting (which feeds my family) and I take my children out and we shoot and they learn to respect guns.
People always want to outlaw "assault rifles", and for the most part, those rifles are just hunting rifles with tactical gear on them. If you lower the magazine capacities, people will just pack more ten round
magazines with them when they do these things. If you outlaw guns, folks will just start using explosives....or some other device. And there are so many guns over here I don't think it would really work anyway.

I really can't understand how you don't realize that you and your attitude is the usual excuse for carrying guns and how small of a percentage of people you fall into.

On one side you are trained to use a gun and you are very careful about educating your children, you do use it for hunting and are aware that you have to be careful when using a gun to defend even when that would mean being robbed for instance. To a certain extent I even get the gun collecting side of it.
But do you really think other people act like that? Not really.

The other thing that gets me annoyed is the concealed part - why, do you need to surprise somebody? Do you have the urge to start a fight then settle it with a gun? That is purely idiotic. And why the foxtrot do you need an assault or an automatic rifle?! I saw a guy carrying a rifle on a rally about health WTH!? I saw people complain about why they can't carry a gun into a bar where they are really likely to get really drunk. Not to mention the street gangs and such. And I'm not even from USA or a cop, so you've probably seen worse. Were not talking people having a gun in the wilderness where an animal might attack you, we're talking about people who go and get drunk with a gun! People who, unlike you, don't really think through what they'd do if somebody comes at them with a gun and in all likeliness would probably get somebody or themselves hurt.
There's no system of control and even worse there's an illusion of control. Even in my country you have to pass a test that trains your IQ and other skills to have a permit and this is a very foxtroted country.

Just so we are on the same page, I would agree with you if the number of people who do stupid stuff with weapons was a small minority and the law was basically controlling everybody cause there's a few idiots around, but that is not the case. I also don't believe that gun control really could've helped out this incident or other shootings, but it wouldn't exactly do damage either.

Oh, lets not get into the public healthcare system, how about guns to anybody but healthcare to anybody as well. That way when you shoot somebody they take it out of your pay check.
For a few years now, USA has all this indications and symptoms of a broken society showing up on the surface, as someone mentioned, it's a first world country with third world problems and the sad thing is that the rest of the world was walking down that path and is not far behind.

QuotePonch:
Your line of argument has an important flaw: the only purpose of guns is to kill or maim people, which cannot be said of any of the other things you listed.

I disagree completely. I shoot for recreational reasons. None of my guns have ever killed or maimed anyone -- they have only shredded many, many paper targets. So clearly they have more than one purpose. But you can say the same thing about every inanimate object. Are cars only meant to ferry people around? Can't they also have an aesthetic purpose? Have you ever visited a car museum and looked at an old Duesenberg? They're beautiful machines. The one I'm thinking of isn't out on the road, carrying people back and forth to Walmart or anything. It's just sitting there to be admired. The same can be said of Fonzi's jacket on display at the Smithsonian. Henry Winkler isn't wearing it, which should be the only point of the thing. But it's still there, helping us recall a terrible time in American television history nonetheless. A cautionary example, to be sure.

And why isn't that Supermarine Spitfire out defending the skies of Great Britain from the devious schemes of Ghost, Cat, and Tabata? Why is it just sitting in an air and space museum for me to look at. Aren't air superiority fighters supposed to be in the air shooting down other planes? Isn't that their only purpose?  ;)

I practice Tai Chi sword for fun and exercise. My sword is very sharp, but I've never cut anyone with it. Isn't that the purpose of a sword? Or can it also be used for fun and exercise?

Embarrassingly, I also tend to use kitchen knives to open packages. Is that the intended function of my paring knife? It is if I say it is.  (nod)

QuoteMay I ask you what made you decide to 'conceal carry'? Just an OT curiosity.

About fifteen years ago, while I was still living in San Diego, I was attacked by a crazy guy one evening in parking garage. I got away but he chased me and when he caught up with me, I had to fight him a second time. He hated my blue eyes, as it turned out. (roll) In those few seconds before he caught up with me again, all I could think was "if I had my gun... if I had my gun...". Fortunately, I was freshly out of the military and was able to discourage him enough (with repeated blows to the head) that he eventually ran away. I jogged across the plaza to the trolly towers and told the security guy there that I had just been attacked. He called the cops and it took almost twenty minutes for an officer to arrive. And this was downtown, so i can't imagine that an officer was all that far away. I guess they were just busy.  (wtf)

I'm not that young anymore, and I certainly don't move as quickly as I used to. But I don't ever want to face a crazy, red-headed, rebar weilding hobo ever again. I was covered in bruises for two weeks after that night, and I'm damn lucky I didn't wind up with a cauliflower ear or something. If I'd been carrying my gun, I doubt he would have wanted to chase me down that stairwell if I'd been waiting down there with a drawn pistol.

Ever since then, I've been armed. And I also have a healthy, sensible fear of red-headed people.  :=

QuoteWearing a gun everyday, I fear I would get too comfortable and forget about it. Possibly misfiring it or leaving it laying around.

Do you treat your car the same way? Do you take naps while driving because you've gotten so comfortable behind the wheel? ;) I never forget I'm wearing it. (How can I? It pokes me in the small of my back all the time.)

Oh, I meant no offense Ponch. Those are just my personal reasons for not carrying. Also, like you mention the gun always pokes you.

Quote from: Squinky on Mon 17/12/2012 01:52:02
Oh, I meant no offense Ponch. Those are just my personal reasons for not carrying. Also, like you mention the gun always pokes you.

That constant annoyance is nature's way of telling you "don't do anything stupid". Just like a case of the crabs. :P

I think we were talking past each other, let me try to put in another way: would you be opposed to giving free nuclear bombs to everybody who wanted one?
What if I wanted to have one because I thought it would look great sitting in my backyard, purely for aesthetic purposes?

Quote from: Khris on Mon 17/12/2012 02:49:42Self Defense = The ability to blow up a city

That's a straw man argument and you know it. Come on, Khris.  (roll)

Personally, I'd love to have a belt-fed machine gun and a bazooka. And a Panzer tank. And I would especially love to have a barbeque grill that looked like an old WWII atomic bomb. Classic design, really. Flip open "Fat Man" and throw on some steaks? Yes, please. And we've got chicken and hot dogs over there on "Little Boy." That would be awesome. But we both know that bringing real plutonium into this amazingly awesome backyard grilling fantasy would only make the meat taste funny (and kill all my guests... slowly :~( ). Stay away from fissionables, kids. Khris and I can agree on that.

Owning and carrying a gun responsibly is not the same as declaring my house an independent nation and becoming the world's tiniest nuclear power (suck it, North Korea!!) -- by the way, my flag would be just like the flag of Texas, but with Larry Vales' head in place of the star.  :=

And apropos of nothing, my avatar is a cute little dancing cow. Yours is a emotionally blank man brandishing a gun. Which one of us is on which side of this debate again? ;)

Anyhoo, this thread is just going in circles now. I'm off to watch Earnest Saves Christmas and then maybe a little Muppets holiday goodness before bedtime.  ;-D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing


(wtf)

There is something that's bothering me here...

Somehow US citizens seem to get the impression that the rest of the world is attacking the US (not unjustifiably but anyhow). This is NOT the case here. We are talking about an insane, silly, bullshit part of your constitution that stands since the late 1700s... And since it's there it IS your right to bear arms! Well done on that!

But the point remains if other normal (Darth) countries have less or more problems with heavy restrictions on gun ownership. And my impression is that there are far less problems RIGHT NOW! Of course it will take some time and nobody is arguing that the minute the law passes everyone will leave their guns and the US will be heaven! Of course not! But I'd dare to say that after a few years (no idea on how many) things WILL be better. For everyone.

That and if your news channels STOP portraying every murderer, every thug, every homicide constantly in the news... This is NOT happening over here and it's the ONE thing that's not poisoning our minds. We do get very pessimistic news constantly about the economy and it's killing the very same economy even further... So much so that I've been wondering if we banned news forever things in the economy would be much better (or not?), but still... News are much more influential than a Hollywood movie: Everyone knows that a movie is bullshit, but everyone knows that news are real (except for fox news?).

While I'm not in the US, I've been there a few times and have many many friends from the US: I get a feeling that your love for guns is attached to your DNA somehow. The same way we Greeks have tax evasion in our DNA! But both can change and as is evident with Greece it can be done through sheer force and with dire consequences but it can be done!

Well for starters, it's never a matter of "allow all guns" vs. "ban all guns"; that's just another straw man. The law is supposed to ensure that responsible people can have guns, and everybody else cannot; that's no different from Europe and Canada. This, then, is a sliding scale where a law can be made more stringent or more lenient, without immediately resorting to "ban everything" (which wouldn't work anyway).

With respect to the school shooting, my first question would be where the murderer got his weapon. Did he have a gun permit and purchase the gun legally? Did he borrow it from someone who should not have borrowed it to him? Did he construct it from spare parts in the basement (a feat which I suspect 99.9% of the population is not capable of)? Did he buy it from the black market? Something else? Find the cause here and you have a target for action to avert future tragedies; otherwise, having politicians take arbitrary measures in moral panic doesn't get you anywhere.

In this case, I beleive the kid just used his mother's guns that she had in the house.  She was quite within her rights to own those guns.  But how her mentally disturbed son had access to them is a question that might be saved for another day.

Gun crime is always going to be a problem in the States, and criminalizing firearms is probably not going to have much effect, and will just anger most Americans who beleive in the constitution.  But I do think it's about time some people started asking themsleves if they REALLY NEED a gun around the place.  Perhaps some kind of voluntary gun amnesty could be proposed.  It's not going to have much affect on inner city gun-crime, where some people genuinely feel they need a gun to stay alive, but perhaps in the wealthier suburbs and small towns like Newtown, perhaps if people really stepped back, lookd at the scenes and asked themselves 'Do I really need these?' then maybe the next disturbed kid might not have such easy access to the weapons.

Quote from: Stupot+ on Mon 17/12/2012 13:23:37
It's not going to have much affect on inner city gun-crime, where some people genuinely feel they need a gun to stay alive,

See now, I have never felt like i've needed a firearm to stay alive. I think if someone in a wealthy, developed nation is thinking that then there is something very wrong.

My posts must be really boring because I think nobody reads them.
There's some issues here that must be separated first:

One, the fact that the kid had easy access to guns (in this case his mother did) is not influential on planing and committing mass murder; he would have taken more time finding his arsenal and would not stop until he had them; it's a compulsive obsessive behaviour that drives this people to perfect their crazy plan;

Two, the fact that guns are easy to get does have major influence on US homicide statistics, I am talking about some kids robbing a drugstore, man and wife having a argument, things like that; In european countries common crime (non-organized) has a much better chance to end up with people still living.

Three, we should not blame the guns, specially in a country that produces and sells guns, and specially in a country where guns are part of its culture. I don't understand it but also don't want to criticize what I don't know.

Four, we really should be thinking about better ways to understand what the hell is going on on this people's minds, specially teens where there's still time to change their point of view about life.

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 13:59:26
My posts must be really boring because I think nobody reads them.

Your suggested relation with depression seems just simply wrong. Someone else in the thread started talking about psychopathy, that also has less to do with these things.

If depression indeed somehow would be the root cause, or there would there be a big correlation with this kind of behaviour, then we better start packing. Since it is psychological disorder number one in the western world. And yes, people should get help and it should be treated. Even in my country suicide is leading death cause number one, under age 30. It's a taboo. But, I haven't however ever seen any adult and sane person romatisizing the real thing.
If you meant to touch on youth cultures that say things like "everything sucks" and "I hate the world"... That has nothing to do with clinical depression either. Thats just part of being a healthy teen/adolescent.

Sorry for the detour, and I am no expert. But I just don't think using familair terms from the field of mental health is helpfull to the discussion. It just kinda distracts from it by being wrung. ( :P )

Quote from: Ponch on Mon 17/12/2012 03:36:16That's a straw man argument and you know it. Come on, Khris.  (roll)

My point was that one can use your argument to justify carrying any kind of weapon. I talked about a bomb merely to illustrate that your arguments about multiple purposes or aesthetics are weak. Guns are special, and equating them with recreational gear or arbitrary blunt objects is flawed.

Where I live, people have to get a license in order to get a gun; they have to convince a public authority that they are fit to do so. In the US, anybody without a record can easily get one, and this is what I'm objecting to.

You'd be just as safe if you wore a vest and carried a riot shield, pepper spray and a baton (even safer, if you were attacked by a gunman). You don't need a small device that effortlessly kills people to fend of rebar wielding hobos.
The potential lethality and small weight of a gun is much more convenient of course, but does that justify handing one to anybody who claims they need it?

Would George Zimmerman have put a knife into Trevor Martin, or have ran him over with his car? I very much doubt it.
The right to bear arms is from a time where it made sense. So are the rules about how to keep slaves from the American people's favorite book of laws.

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32Somehow US citizens seem to get the impression that the rest of the world is attacking the US (not unjustifiably but anyhow). This is NOT the case here. We are talking about an insane, silly, bullshit part of your constitution that stands since the late 1700s... And since it's there it IS your right to bear arms! Well done on that!

I will try to shed some light on this (though I'm not optimistic it will sway your opinion).  It is very easy to criticize the Constitution (2nd amendment) when you do not live under that Constitution.  The second amendment made perfect sense when it was proposed (1789) and ratified (1791) given the recent war for independence (among others).  It was a vastly different world back then.  So while I would agree that the concept of the "Right to Bear Arms" is a tad antiquated in modern times it is still a part of our culture.  Yes, the beauty of the Constitution is that it can be changed but it's not like updating your Facebook profile.

Can you explain why you think it's "insane, silly and buillshit"?  My guess (just guessing) is because you think the constitutional right to bear arms is what led to the horrible events in Connecticut.  That because this man could own guns, this happened.  I do not have the statistics in front of me but I believe the percentage of gun-crimes committed by legally owned firearms is somewhere around 7%.  His "right" to own weapons had nothing to do with his decision to murder people.  His mental state led to those tragic events.  If he had no access to guns he'd have committed the atrocities in some other way (as Squinky pointed out earlier).  Must we then make it illegal to clean your kitchen? (I could make a very destructive bomb from the stuff I clean my kitchen with).

I agree that the "ease" with which a person can obtain a gun is a problem.  It should be harder to purchase a firearm.  But making it illegal just isn't going to solve any problems.  It might reduce that 7% down to 1 or 2% instead but the illegal guns aren't going away.

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32But the point remains if other normal (Darth) countries have less or more problems with heavy restrictions on gun ownership. And my impression is that there are far less problems RIGHT NOW! Of course it will take some time and nobody is arguing that the minute the law passes everyone will leave their guns and the US will be heaven! Of course not! But I'd dare to say that after a few years (no idea on how many) things WILL be better. For everyone.

I would be curious to know (I'm at work and can't take the time to do the research right now) if in countries that have much stricter regulations on gun ownership (like Greece, Nic) did the country enact such restrictions because there were a lot of guns and gun related crimes?  Or was it done in an attempt to prevent a gun problem?

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32That and if your news channels STOP portraying every murderer, every thug, every homicide constantly in the news... This is NOT happening over here and it's the ONE thing that's not poisoning our minds. We do get very pessimistic news constantly about the economy and it's killing the very same economy even further... So much so that I've been wondering if we banned news forever things in the economy would be much better (or not?), but still... News are much more influential than a Hollywood movie: Everyone knows that a movie is bullshit, but everyone knows that news are real (except for fox news?).

You'll get ZERO argument from me on this.  I cannot stand the media (not just in the USA, but the world).

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32While I'm not in the US, I've been there a few times and have many many friends from the US: I get a feeling that your love for guns is attached to your DNA somehow. The same way we Greeks have tax evasion in our DNA! But both can change and as is evident with Greece it can be done through sheer force and with dire consequences but it can be done!

But see, you've done it again.  You're generalizing and lumping all Americans as "gun lovers".  This is exactly the point I was trying to make about the "bandwagon".  I do not own a gun.  I do not intend on owning a gun.  Most of the people I know do not own guns (and most of them hate guns).  We don't walk around calling people out at high-noon to have a showdown in town square.  This is another problem I have with media because it would seem this is the impression most outside the US have of the citizens of the US based on pop-culture and media [mis]representation.

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 13:59:26Four, we really should be thinking about better ways to understand what the hell is going on on this people's minds, specially teens where there's still time to change their point of view about life.

This, to me, is the most important thing you said! (though I agree with the rest for the most part as well).  And your posts aren't boring... just hard to keep up with everything in a thread like this :)

Quote from: Khris on Mon 17/12/2012 15:29:57Where I live, people have to get a license in order to get a gun; they have to convince a public authority that they are fit to do so. In the US, anybody without a record can easily get one, and this is what I'm objecting to.

In this regard you'll get no argument from me (as I stated above).  It should be harder to get a gun.  I know some people that "legally" own a firearm that should not be allowed.  Not because they're mentally unstable or would ever commit a crime with it but just because I fear "accidents" (shooting their foot, somebody else, etc).  They just aren't a responsible enough person to own a firearm.

Quote from: Khris on Mon 17/12/2012 15:29:57Would George Zimmerman have put a knife into Trevor Martin, or have ran him over with his car? I very much doubt it.
The right to bear arms is from a time where it made sense. So are the rules about how to keep slaves from the American people's favorite book of laws.

Also as I stated above, the 2nd amendment is a tad antiquated.

However, your statement about Zimmerman not killing Martin (if he'd not had a firearm) doesn't hold much water.  If Zimmerman intended to kill Martin his lack of a gun wouldn't have stopped him.  Sure it was easier with a gun, but if he wanted to murder him he'd have found other means in lieu of a gun.  So I find your statement "wrong" because you're assuming Zimmerman's intent was to kill Martin (which you cannot know).  He claims it was purely self-defense.

I do not know Zimmerman nor was I a witness to the event so I won't speculate.

Quote from: tamatic on Mon 17/12/2012 15:10:01

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 13:59:26
My posts must be really boring because I think nobody reads them.

These kinda of topics I generally am happy to avoid. Mainly indeed because debating religion/politics is just very annoying on a public forum. Also because I can't think of much to say... If anything, I would like start making jokes about mass killings and the sentiments around it: since its all too sad. But I won't do that either since people don't generally like that. -Or at least claim so.

Either way, your suggested relation with depression seems just simply wrong. Someone else in the thread started talking about psychopathy, that also has less to do with these things.

If depression indeed somehow would be the root cause, or there would there be a big correlation with this kind of behaviour, then we better start packing. Since it is psychological disorder number one in the western world. And yes, people should get help and it should be treated. Even in my country suicide is leading death cause number one, under age 30. It's a taboo. But, I haven't however ever seen any adult and sane person romatisizing the real thing.
If you meant to touch on youth cultures that say things like "everything sucks" and "I hate the world"... That has nothing to do with clinical depression either. Thats just part of being a healthy teen/adolescent.

Sorry for the detour, and I am no expert. But I just don't think using familair terms from the field of mental health is helpfull to the discussion. It just kinda distracts from it by being wrung. ( :P )

Making jokes about mass murder on this specific topic would be really sad from you, so we are all glad that you avoided it.
As for my suggestions on depression and its relation with actual mass murderers all I can say is that I didn't come up with the idea, specialists did. All my comments are based on stuff written in the internet. Some good, some bad, some better, but they all lead to that fact. And, surprise, all those kids and grown ups that did this shit were seclusive, depressed persons...
And I am very sad to say (again) that yes, because half the world is depressed, we'll never be able to predict a potential mass murderer.
What I found really problematic on your view of what I wrote is that you think that a healthy teen should be a "fuck the world" idiot. That's just something you bought and considerer normal. It's not. Teens often don't know the boundaries of what's a "fuck the world" phase and when to stop. The real danger resides here. When they buy that shit, they get depressed, they close themselves at home, they get guns and they plan mass murderers.
So yes, the root is depression in the way that these guys cannot relate to people, they cannot socialize and thus get away from it all. Some will want revenge...

The problem is not guns. The problem is the underdevelopment of empathy in a majority of kids and teenagers. School shooting are just the tip of the iceberg of what I would call "all the bad shit a kid can afflict to another living being". Even if you remove the guns from the equation, kids will still find ways to scar or screw up someone else' life because it's just for lulz and they don't give a shit.

It's the whole bus bullying that old lady in that vid, or all the kids bullying the crap out of each others all the time, every time, in every schools in the world, kids pushing other kids to suicide on facebook or sexual abuse of kids by kids their age, some case happening as early as primary school (I kid you not, I've heard news report of that)...

This whole mess that happens because we all leave kids to their own devices, thinking "Kids their ages, we've been there, it will pass..." 'til some bad shit like this happens. It's this whole mess, that is wayyyyys bigger than gun control, that needs to be fixed. And this is coming from a pro gun control guy. If you think guns are the problem here, you're trying to fix the wrong thing. The real problem is the crazy slow development of empathy.

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 16:04:53
As for my suggestions on depression and its relation with actual mass murderers all I can say is that I didn't come up with the idea, specialists did. All my comments are based on stuff written in the internet. Some good, some bad, some better, but they all lead to that fact. And, surprise, all those kids and grown ups that did this shit were seclusive, depressed persons...
And I am very sad to say (again) that yes, because half the world is depressed, we'll never be able to predict a potential mass murderer.

Yes, that last bit is the point right? Why keep trowing with common terms and labels - to do what? Make the whole of your argument seem more professional?
In effect it's just wrongly stigmatizing people with their own problems. Like saying... yeah, them shootingpersons make their plan very strickt because that's OCD?! .....I mean... you told me you are glad I wasnt making jokes... but.. come on?
Just take a pile of common mental health related words.. feel in your gut how they might fit and just use them.

Quote
What I found really problematic on your view of what I wrote is that you think that a healthy teen should be a "fuck the world" idiot. That's just something you bought and considerer normal. It's not. Teens often don't know the boundaries of what's a "fuck the world" phase and when to stop.

Sure you have been thinking "f*ck the world" as a teen yourself. I just pointed out it is a general teen spirit that is not dangerous, on itself, but part of growing up.

Quote
The real danger resides here. When they buy that shit, they get depressed, they close themselves at home, they get guns and they plan mass murderers.
So yes, the root is depression in the way that these guys cannot relate to people, they cannot socialize and thus get away from it all. Some will want revenge...

Well, thats some nice leaps here that conveniently fit your conclusion.

To be a bit more outspoken: I don't like it when people are throwing with multiple random diagnoses. And not because I care how the shooter is perceived. But its just a bit uhm... stigmatizing for all the others dealing with the actual disorders.

Quote from: Khris on Mon 17/12/2012 15:29:57
Where I live, people have to get a license in order to get a gun; they have to convince a public authority that they are fit to do so. In the US, anybody without a record can easily get one, and this is what I'm objecting to.

I had to apply to the state of Texas to get my CHL (concealed handgun license). They don't come free in the mail, you know. I had to fill out paperwork, write a check, and everything. :wink:

And you make fending off hobos with rebar sound a lot easier than it actually is. Plus I'm middle aged now. If something similar were to happen again, I don't think I'd stand much of a chance. (http://www.barnrunner.com/pics/misc/Roger_RollEyes.gif)

QuoteYou'd be just as safe if you wore a vest and carried a riot shield, pepper spray and a baton

Of course I wouldn't. The entire point of carrying a concealed weapon is that no one knows I have it. Why invite trouble? Better to keep a low profile and hope any trouble passes me by -- which is how most of us live our lives. The only difference is that I have slightly better odds if something bad happens. It's like wearing a helmet on my motorcycle, as far as I'm concerned. Does the law require me to wear one? Nope. But I'd be a fool not to.  :wink:

And a razor sharp sword is hardly recreational gear. Further, statistically speaking, my car is much more dangerous and deadly than my gun.

And for what it's worth, per the Department of Justice's own statistics, in the US more violent criminals are shot by law abiding citizens than by police officers every year -- and by a sizable amount!

Personally, I think Blueskirt has it right. We need to find some way to reach these troubled kids. The Columbine killers were planning on killing several hundred more kids with their homemade propane bombs. It's a miracle the damn things failed to go off. There's something wrong with our society (and America's not alone in that), but it's not the fault of an inanimate object.

EDIT: And on the point that most people don't know how to make a gun, neither did the guy who made the Glock. He picked up a couple of books at the library and read them. He sat down in his kitchen and created the most popular handgun of the last thirty years. That how easy it is. Anyone can do it. Take a six week class in metal working and you to could build a Glock with material available at any hardware store. Hell, John Browning used to make machine guns in an afternoon when he had friends coming over and he wanted to show them something new. It really is just that easy for anyone who has a library card and twenty dollars worth of tools.

Hey, tamatic! This is not a contest about who throws the best post, man!
You have clearly touched the edge where I sense you're hanger-posting towards me. I'm not that kind of guy nor I wish to confront anybody here.
I believe you didn't read my posts all that well.
We have different opinions and that's only natural.
I never threw random diagnosis, I read what professionals thought about this issue and felt I should tell it here.
I wish we could "talk" on a more mature and friendly way, please.
For the record, I was a "fuck the world" kid but only for a while. And then I grew up.
Peace?

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 17/12/2012 16:01:28

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32Somehow US citizens seem to get the impression that the rest of the world is attacking the US (not unjustifiably but anyhow). This is NOT the case here. We are talking about an insane, silly, bullshit part of your constitution that stands since the late 1700s... And since it's there it IS your right to bear arms! Well done on that!

I will try to shed some light on this (though I'm not optimistic it will sway your opinion).  It is very easy to criticize the Constitution (2nd amendment) when you do not live under that Constitution.  The second amendment made perfect sense when it was proposed (1789) and ratified (1791) given the recent war for independence (among others).  It was a vastly different world back then.  So while I would agree that the concept of the "Right to Bear Arms" is a tad antiquated in modern times it is still a part of our culture.  Yes, the beauty of the Constitution is that it can be changed but it's not like updating your Facebook profile.

Can you explain why you think it's "insane, silly and buillshit"?  My guess (just guessing) is because you think the constitutional right to bear arms is what led to the horrible events in Connecticut.  That because this man could own guns, this happened.  I do not have the statistics in front of me but I believe the percentage of gun-crimes committed by legally owned firearms is somewhere around 7%.  His "right" to own weapons had nothing to do with his decision to murder people.  His mental state led to those tragic events.  If he had no access to guns he'd have committed the atrocities in some other way (as Squinky pointed out earlier).  Must we then make it illegal to clean your kitchen? (I could make a very destructive bomb from the stuff I clean my kitchen with).

I agree that the "ease" with which a person can obtain a gun is a problem.  It should be harder to purchase a firearm.  But making it illegal just isn't going to solve any problems.  It might reduce that 7% down to 1 or 2% instead but the illegal guns aren't going away.

But see for me a gun is SO FAR OFF MY CHART of a reasonable item to hold that this part of your constitution seems silly, blah blah... It's not connected to any violent act made with guns (although there certainly is a connection): It's my amazement at this culture which seems... well... silly to me (sorry... I'll try not to generalize and I'm happy to know that you don't own a gun, etc, etc. Plus you know I love you! ^_^).

See for me a gun is a very specific item: You can either threaten to kill (injure), you can kill (injure) or you can practice doing those two things. I wouldn't mind seeing a collector of guns (which would be locked away and safely kept), but I don't think that many users keep their arms just there for no reason; it has to be one of the three above. And any of the three involve an enormous amount of violence (even if you're just thinking about it, or hold it 'just in case'). So... a gun is unlike anything else: A hunting knife falls roughly in the same category, but it can be used for hunting (and for diving... We have tons of divers here and they all own a knife, but there's been 0 kills with such knifes in Greece). A handgun is NOT for hunting (unless I'm misinformed...). A kitchen knife CAN be used to kill, but it's not there for that purpose.

So there's a huge difference between a gun and anything else.

And a law that allows owning a gun, allows for more violence.

Quote

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32But the point remains if other normal (Darth) countries have less or more problems with heavy restrictions on gun ownership. And my impression is that there are far less problems RIGHT NOW! Of course it will take some time and nobody is arguing that the minute the law passes everyone will leave their guns and the US will be heaven! Of course not! But I'd dare to say that after a few years (no idea on how many) things WILL be better. For everyone.

I would be curious to know (I'm at work and can't take the time to do the research right now) if in countries that have much stricter regulations on gun ownership (like Greece, Nic) did the country enact such restrictions because there were a lot of guns and gun related crimes?  Or was it done in an attempt to prevent a gun problem?

You in the US (generalizing... I know, but I don't know how else to put it) have been very lucky to be 'detached' from the rest of the world. Never invaded, never in a close war... Japan is in the other side of the world. In comparison in Greece we've had the Turkish empire on our back for 400 years, then both world wars, occupations, and a handful of civil wars (the last one ending at the end of the 40s). My father and mother lived through this civil war, and I know A LOT of people who were hunted down and locked down, killed, etc... Later on we got a dictatorship that ended in mid 70s.

So Greece has been through A LOT of turmoil and guns were a part of that. Legal guns or illegal guns. But there's always been a very specific reason (war) to have guns.

So now, we're sick a tired of such violences. And while we're getting nearer such an issue yet again, with this ugly economic crisis, you don't see anyone carrying a gun or anything. Guns are saved for a situation of war (not even in Junda!!!).

So yeah, you can bet that owning a gun is illegal here because we've simply had too much of them. Crete is still filled with firearms of various kinds and while we all love Crete and they love us, there tends to be a tiny bit of tension! Plus they have all kind of activities down there and the police can't do much...

Quote

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32That and if your news channels STOP portraying every murderer, every thug, every homicide constantly in the news... This is NOT happening over here and it's the ONE thing that's not poisoning our minds. We do get very pessimistic news constantly about the economy and it's killing the very same economy even further... So much so that I've been wondering if we banned news forever things in the economy would be much better (or not?), but still... News are much more influential than a Hollywood movie: Everyone knows that a movie is bullshit, but everyone knows that news are real (except for fox news?).

You'll get ZERO argument from me on this.  I cannot stand the media (not just in the USA, but the world).

Thank you. But I also get a feeling that the way that the media work differ between countries. At least from what I've seen in the UK, the US (when staying there for a week or two), Syria (brrr...) and Greece (bliah)... The amount of terror coming out of our telly is there, but it's different for each country and for a different subject.

Quote

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 11:29:32While I'm not in the US, I've been there a few times and have many many friends from the US: I get a feeling that your love for guns is attached to your DNA somehow. The same way we Greeks have tax evasion in our DNA! But both can change and as is evident with Greece it can be done through sheer force and with dire consequences but it can be done!

But see, you've done it again.  You're generalizing and lumping all Americans as "gun lovers".  This is exactly the point I was trying to make about the "bandwagon".  I do not own a gun.  I do not intend on owning a gun.  Most of the people I know do not own guns (and most of them hate guns).  We don't walk around calling people out at high-noon to have a showdown in town square.  This is another problem I have with media because it would seem this is the impression most outside the US have of the citizens of the US based on pop-culture and media [mis]representation.

I was hoping that my note that I'm not in the US and thus I'm not sure, etc, would avoid anything like that. I'm kinda generalizing, I'll agree, because there's no other way about that, but eventually I know that everyone is different. Plus I put inside the same paragraph Greece as well, so there's a point to be made here! ;)

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 19:51:27
Hey, tamatic! This is not a contest about who throws the best post, man!
You have clearly touched the edge where I sense you're hanger-posting towards me. I'm not that kind of guy nor I wish to confront anybody here.
I believe you didn't read my posts all that well.
We have different opinions and that's only natural.
I never threw random diagnosis, I read what professionals thought about this issue and felt I should tell it here.
I wish we could "talk" on a more mature and friendly way, please.
For the record, I was a "fuck the world" kid but only for a while. And then I grew up.
Peace?

Hi, it's not personal and I just tried to be honest.
I think your intention is right, these people are indeed sick idiots. And ideally their surrounding should pick up on their derailing, and there would be help.  It's just that does not always happen.  Also there are tons of decent hermits: most are not lone wolf bonkers killers, ect.
But we are layman... and I would, for reasons already given, say we should not be speculating on diagnoses since it doesn't always makes as much sense as we like it to make. If only it did.
And the reason why I include the idea of humour is because we are "helpless" against violence. The whole idea of violence is that it crosses borders without consent. Then there is just hardly much else left than humour imo. Not mean to disrespect any earnest grief.
Anyway peace always. :P!

Yeah, I guess you're right.
And after all Nikolas and Ponch are ignoring us completely...
You know what? I think we should blame the Greek! I mean, who else uses garlic in monstrous proportions than the Greek? Of course you're having Civil Wars every couple of years!
What about Ponch? He has dinner with a bullet belt on his shoulder and never goes to toilet without a red bandana!

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 20:33:19
Yeah, I guess you're right.
And after all Nikolas and Ponch are ignoring us completely...
You know what? I think we should blame the Greek! I mean, who else uses garlic in monstrous proportions than the Greek? Of course you're having Civil Wars every couple of years!
What about Ponch? He has dinner with a bullet belt on his shoulder and never goes to toilet without a red bandana!

Well the word idiot came from Greece.

Nikolas, to address you point on gun collectors and keeping guns locked up:

Pretty much everyone I know that owns firearms keep them locked in massive safes. I do. And truthfully, for most people they sit in those safes most of the time. My firearms all have locks on them inside that safe, or have the bolts removed. I keep my ammunition well away from the weapons, and locked as well.

Some people carry sidearms hunting. I never have. I know lots of folks that take a sidearm when horse-riding, loaded up with shot rounds for snakes or any other aggressive animal.

If you have claimed here that fewer guns and stricter gun control laws mean fewer deaths by gun-related violence, then congratulations, you're correct.

You can always find some isolated deviation, but the statistics are pretty clear if you just look at them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/

To summarize:
Decline in gun ownership -> decline in deaths
Higher availability of guns -> higher risk
Stricter laws -> fewer deaths

Quote from: Squinky on Mon 17/12/2012 20:47:28
Nikolas, to address you point on gun collectors and keeping guns locked up:

Pretty much everyone I know that owns firearms keep them locked in massive safes. I do. And truthfully, for most people they sit in those safes most of the time. My firearms all have locks on them inside that safe, or have the bolts removed. I keep my ammunition well away from the weapons, and locked as well.

Some people carry sidearms hunting. I never have. I know lots of folks that take a sidearm when horse-riding, loaded up with shot rounds for snakes or any other aggressive animal.

I already said that I don't have a problem with collectors. But the whole culture around guns seems to be creating an issue there, I think...

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 20:01:02But see for me a gun is SO FAR OFF MY CHART of a reasonable item to hold that this part of your constitution seems silly, blah blah... It's not connected to any violent act made with guns (although there certainly is a connection): It's my amazement at this culture which seems... well... silly to me (sorry... I'll try not to generalize and I'm happy to know that you don't own a gun, etc, etc. Plus you know I love you! ^_^).

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 20:01:02See for me a gun is a very specific item: You can either threaten to kill (injure), you can kill (injure) or you can practice doing those two things. I wouldn't mind seeing a collector of guns (which would be locked away and safely kept), but I don't think that many users keep their arms just there for no reason; it has to be one of the three above. And any of the three involve an enormous amount of violence (even if you're just thinking about it, or hold it 'just in case'). So... a gun is unlike anything else: A hunting knife falls roughly in the same category, but it can be used for hunting (and for diving... We have tons of divers here and they all own a knife, but there's been 0 kills with such knifes in Greece). A handgun is NOT for hunting (unless I'm misinformed...). A kitchen knife CAN be used to kill, but it's not there for that purpose.

So there's a huge difference between a gun and anything else.

And a law that allows owning a gun, allows for more violence.

From your personal point of view I completely understand what you're getting at but, and I really hate to keep using the word, it feels like generalizing to me.  You feel (and are totally in your right to feel this way) that those three things you outlined are the only reasons to own a gun.

But, as Ponch has pointed out, there are other purposes to owning a firearm. 

My father is a collector of guns and he has made it clear to me that he would use them in self-defense if it ever became necessary but that he NEVER wants to harm another human being.  He enjoys shooting recreationally and only shoots geometric targets (not human shaped ones).  I think the argument that guns only have one purpose is flawed.  It's like saying (also as Ponch mentioned earlier) that cars (automobiles in general) ONLY exist to drive from point A to point B.  But we know this is not the case.  People dress up their cars, put in stereo systems, live in their cars, race their cars, etc.  I would agree that guns were invented as deadly weapons but like most things they've evolved to have other purposes besides killing/harming.  Yes, they are still "deadly" but so is any knife, any car, any baseball bat, etc. 

The bottom line is; it all depends on who is holding the object, not the object itself.

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 20:01:02You in the US (generalizing... I know, but I don't know how else to put it) have been very lucky to be 'detached' from the rest of the world. Never invaded, never in a close war... Japan is in the other side of the world.

Ummm... that's completely inaccurate :)  From the time the first settlers set foot on American soil it was a near constant state of warfare for nearly 300 years.  Sure we don't have as much history as you guys across the pond but what we do have is, lamentably, surrounded by the fog of war.  Conflicts with all the native tribes, King Phillip's War, King Williams's, Queen Anne's, King George's, the French and Indian Wars, the Cherokee war, the war for Independence, Franco American, Barbary, the War of 1812,  Texan Independence, Mexican/American war, our own Civil War, and the Spanish/American war to round out the 19th century.  We are a nation founded and formed to the sound of gunfire.  In that context (and given how close we came to losing the Revolutionary War) it makes perfect sense to amend our constitution to allow an armed populace. 

In the 20th century... The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor wasn't the end of Japan's aggression on the USA.  They sent balloon bombs over on the jet-stream (one of them killed 5 boyscouts in northern Oregon if I'm remembering correctly) and they had documented intentions of bringing the war to our western shores (all along the west coast there are still "historical" sites where you can see the decommissioned anti-aircraft batteries that were there to ward off Japanese attacks).  Germany also had documented plans to attack the eastern shores of the continental USA as well (they were planning nuclear bombers that could reach New York).  After WWII we got ourselves embroiled in the Cold War and were under constant "threat" from soviet missles/bombers coming in over the poles and had to deal with the Soviets putting missile batteries in Cuba.

I would agree that we don't have any "close" neighbors that wish us harm.  Though I still think those Canadian bastards are plotting something...

Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 17/12/2012 20:01:02I was hoping that my note that I'm not in the US and thus I'm not sure, etc, would avoid anything like that. I'm kinda generalizing, I'll agree, because there's no other way about that, but eventually I know that everyone is different. Plus I put inside the same paragraph Greece as well, so there's a point to be made here! ;)

Yeah man I know what you're trying to say (and you know I love ya too!).  I am not mad (or even upset) by anything you said.  I don't let the internet get to me like that (any more).  I agree 100% that something needs to be done about the problem but I just don't think gun "control" is the answer.  A mentally disturbed, or psychotic, or just asshole person that wants to commit violence will commit said violent act whether or not they have a gun to do it with.

We should focus (as I think was Miquel and Tamata's points) on the people that are committing these acts... not the tools they commit the acts with.

The more I think on it, the more I have to agree that we could use with more restrictions on gun ownership.

Currently you can't own guns if you are a Felon of any kind, or commit domestic violence. Beyond that I am uninformed. Oh, and some people on probation can't have guns either. Purchasing a gun requires a 15 minute background check and you are set. Also, committing any crime with a firearm automatically ups the penalties significantly.

More required training and safety requirements couldn't hurt. It's just that I always fear change that is spurred on by emotional issues, tragedy, things like that. There were some pretty questionable decisions regarding our liberty after 9/11. We should learn from that. 

Also, current legislation is misinformed IMO. I can see the re-in statement of the assault rifle ban soon. Which I feel is a bad place to start. Sure, all that tactical gear looks intimidating, but most gun crimes are committed with handguns. That ban also restricts hi-capacity magazines to government or law enforcement. This has minimal effect in my eyes. Folks can just pack more ten round mags. And although there are some massive magazines out there, they almost always jam. So I don't see those as the pressing issues.

So, I could live with restrictions on firearms. Although I don't think most restrictions would help as much as people want.

The bigger issue, to me, is how we handle mental health issues. I mentioned before that I had some experience in law enforcement, and I can tell you that jails are full of people who shouldn't be there. People who should be receiving proper mental care are just jammed in a cell and forgotten about. The mental health facilities WILL NOT take them unless they become a danger. Seriously. And they will not take them if they consider their mental issues to be caused by drug abuse.

And to top it off, those places are horrible. I always hated going in to them. We would keep suicidal people at the jail in a special cell and monitor them 24/7. And one of the few times the mental health facilities would take a suicidal inmate, I dropped him off at about 2 in the morning, and found out the next morning he had hung himself. Really, the whole thing makes me sick and it needs to change.

QuoteAlso, committing any crime with a firearm automatically ups the penalties significantly.

Ofcause in most of europe thats a funny sentence already.

I think the big difference in gun culture is the whole idea that actually threatening someone with taking his/her life is not naturel anymore. Here bugulars just leave if you turn on a lot of light and/or make noises. They are not scared to get killed or have a death penalty. So they don't arm themselves to prevent that either.
Anyway it's not simple matter. It does however make sense from a EU perspective. Just dig into the numbers, I guess.
Not that this has all that much to do with lone wolf killers.

Quote from: miguel on Mon 17/12/2012 20:33:19
Nikolas and Ponch are ignoring us completely...

Dear Miguel,

Hello. How are you? I am fine. Today my friend Don got a new puppy. He is a yellow lab. He is very friendly but a little dumb. I wanted Don to name him Dennis because he is very goofy and friendly and full of loveable Oceanspiritedness. But Don said no. Don named him Biscuit. Also he is a she. I hope you are well and that Santa brings you lots of Christmas presents.

Your pal,

Ponch

p.s. The bandana is blue.

;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D

Haaaah!Dear Ponch!
Only a warm friendly post like that to rest my chilled heart!
I am very glad for Biscuit and know that you and Don will train him to be a great Military Working Dog, and my wish for this Xmas is that Biscuit survives training without PTSD!

Never before a cow was so nice to me!

ps: love the blue bandana

And to crown everything: a good chunk of the US population want Piers Morgan deported for trying to enforce stricter gun laws. It's almost as if they're asking for another incident like this! Although admittedly it does break the Second Constitution... but still!