Whiskey Tango Foxtrot--Yet ANOTHER School Shooting?!?!?!

[tamatic]

My posts must be really boring because I think nobody reads them.

Your suggested relation with depression seems just simply wrong. Someone else in the thread started talking about psychopathy, that also has less to do with these things.

If depression indeed somehow would be the root cause, or there would there be a big correlation with this kind of behaviour, then we better start packing. Since it is psychological disorder number one in the western world. And yes, people should get help and it should be treated. Even in my country suicide is leading death cause number one, under age 30. It's a taboo. But, I haven't however ever seen any adult and sane person romatisizing the real thing.
If you meant to touch on youth cultures that say things like "everything sucks" and "I hate the world"... That has nothing to do with clinical depression either. Thats just part of being a healthy teen/adolescent.

Sorry for the detour, and I am no expert. But I just don't think using familair terms from the field of mental health is helpfull to the discussion. It just kinda distracts from it by being wrung. ( )

[Khris]

That's a straw man argument and you know it. Come on, Khris. 

My point was that one can use your argument to justify carrying any kind of weapon. I talked about a bomb merely to illustrate that your arguments about multiple purposes or aesthetics are weak. Guns are special, and equating them with recreational gear or arbitrary blunt objects is flawed.

Where I live, people have to get a license in order to get a gun; they have to convince a public authority that they are fit to do so. In the US, anybody without a record can easily get one, and this is what I'm objecting to.

You'd be just as safe if you wore a vest and carried a riot shield, pepper spray and a baton (even safer, if you were attacked by a gunman). You don't need a small device that effortlessly kills people to fend of rebar wielding hobos.
The potential lethality and small weight of a gun is much more convenient of course, but does that justify handing one to anybody who claims they need it?

Would George Zimmerman have put a knife into Trevor Martin, or have ran him over with his car? I very much doubt it.
The right to bear arms is from a time where it made sense. So are the rules about how to keep slaves from the American people's favorite book of laws.

[Darth Mandarb]

Somehow US citizens seem to get the impression that the rest of the world is attacking the US (not unjustifiably but anyhow). This is NOT the case here. We are talking about an insane, silly, bullshit part of your constitution that stands since the late 1700s... And since it's there it IS your right to bear arms! Well done on that!

I will try to shed some light on this (though I'm not optimistic it will sway your opinion).  It is very easy to criticize the Constitution (2nd amendment) when you do not live under that Constitution.  The second amendment made perfect sense when it was proposed (1789) and ratified (1791) given the recent war for independence (among others).  It was a vastly different world back then.  So while I would agree that the concept of the "Right to Bear Arms" is a tad antiquated in modern times it is still a part of our culture.  Yes, the beauty of the Constitution is that it can be changed but it's not like updating your Facebook profile.

Can you explain why you think it's "insane, silly and buillshit"?  My guess (just guessing) is because you think the constitutional right to bear arms is what led to the horrible events in Connecticut.  That because this man could own guns, this happened.  I do not have the statistics in front of me but I believe the percentage of gun-crimes committed by legally owned firearms is somewhere around 7%.  His "right" to own weapons had nothing to do with his decision to murder people.  His mental state led to those tragic events.  If he had no access to guns he'd have committed the atrocities in some other way (as Squinky pointed out earlier).  Must we then make it illegal to clean your kitchen? (I could make a very destructive bomb from the stuff I clean my kitchen with).

I agree that the "ease" with which a person can obtain a gun is a problem.  It should be harder to purchase a firearm.  But making it illegal just isn't going to solve any problems.  It might reduce that 7% down to 1 or 2% instead but the illegal guns aren't going away.

But the point remains if other normal (Darth) countries have less or more problems with heavy restrictions on gun ownership. And my impression is that there are far less problems RIGHT NOW! Of course it will take some time and nobody is arguing that the minute the law passes everyone will leave their guns and the US will be heaven! Of course not! But I'd dare to say that after a few years (no idea on how many) things WILL be better. For everyone.

I would be curious to know (I'm at work and can't take the time to do the research right now) if in countries that have much stricter regulations on gun ownership (like Greece, Nic) did the country enact such restrictions because there were a lot of guns and gun related crimes?  Or was it done in an attempt to prevent a gun problem?

That and if your news channels STOP portraying every murderer, every thug, every homicide constantly in the news... This is NOT happening over here and it's the ONE thing that's not poisoning our minds. We do get very pessimistic news constantly about the economy and it's killing the very same economy even further... So much so that I've been wondering if we banned news forever things in the economy would be much better (or not?), but still... News are much more influential than a Hollywood movie: Everyone knows that a movie is bullshit, but everyone knows that news are real (except for fox news?).

You'll get ZERO argument from me on this.  I cannot stand the media (not just in the USA, but the world).

While I'm not in the US, I've been there a few times and have many many friends from the US: I get a feeling that your love for guns is attached to your DNA somehow. The same way we Greeks have tax evasion in our DNA! But both can change and as is evident with Greece it can be done through sheer force and with dire consequences but it can be done!

But see, you've done it again.  You're generalizing and lumping all Americans as "gun lovers".  This is exactly the point I was trying to make about the "bandwagon".  I do not own a gun.  I do not intend on owning a gun.  Most of the people I know do not own guns (and most of them hate guns).  We don't walk around calling people out at high-noon to have a showdown in town square.  This is another problem I have with media because it would seem this is the impression most outside the US have of the citizens of the US based on pop-culture and media [mis]representation.

Four, we really should be thinking about better ways to understand what the hell is going on on this people's minds, specially teens where there's still time to change their point of view about life.

This, to me, is the most important thing you said! (though I agree with the rest for the most part as well).  And your posts aren't boring... just hard to keep up with everything in a thread like this

Where I live, people have to get a license in order to get a gun; they have to convince a public authority that they are fit to do so. In the US, anybody without a record can easily get one, and this is what I'm objecting to.

In this regard you'll get no argument from me (as I stated above).  It should be harder to get a gun.  I know some people that "legally" own a firearm that should not be allowed.  Not because they're mentally unstable or would ever commit a crime with it but just because I fear "accidents" (shooting their foot, somebody else, etc).  They just aren't a responsible enough person to own a firearm.

Would George Zimmerman have put a knife into Trevor Martin, or have ran him over with his car? I very much doubt it.
The right to bear arms is from a time where it made sense. So are the rules about how to keep slaves from the American people's favorite book of laws.

Also as I stated above, the 2nd amendment is a tad antiquated.

However, your statement about Zimmerman not killing Martin (if he'd not had a firearm) doesn't hold much water.  If Zimmerman intended to kill Martin his lack of a gun wouldn't have stopped him.  Sure it was easier with a gun, but if he wanted to murder him he'd have found other means in lieu of a gun.  So I find your statement "wrong" because you're assuming Zimmerman's intent was to kill Martin (which you cannot know).  He claims it was purely self-defense.

I do not know Zimmerman nor was I a witness to the event so I won't speculate.

[miguel]

My posts must be really boring because I think nobody reads them.

These kinda of topics I generally am happy to avoid. Mainly indeed because debating religion/politics is just very annoying on a public forum. Also because I can't think of much to say... If anything, I would like start making jokes about mass killings and the sentiments around it: since its all too sad. But I won't do that either since people don't generally like that. -Or at least claim so.

Either way, your suggested relation with depression seems just simply wrong. Someone else in the thread started talking about psychopathy, that also has less to do with these things.

If depression indeed somehow would be the root cause, or there would there be a big correlation with this kind of behaviour, then we better start packing. Since it is psychological disorder number one in the western world. And yes, people should get help and it should be treated. Even in my country suicide is leading death cause number one, under age 30. It's a taboo. But, I haven't however ever seen any adult and sane person romatisizing the real thing.
If you meant to touch on youth cultures that say things like "everything sucks" and "I hate the world"... That has nothing to do with clinical depression either. Thats just part of being a healthy teen/adolescent.

Sorry for the detour, and I am no expert. But I just don't think using familair terms from the field of mental health is helpfull to the discussion. It just kinda distracts from it by being wrung. ( )

Making jokes about mass murder on this specific topic would be really sad from you, so we are all glad that you avoided it.
As for my suggestions on depression and its relation with actual mass murderers all I can say is that I didn't come up with the idea, specialists did. All my comments are based on stuff written in the internet. Some good, some bad, some better, but they all lead to that fact. And, surprise, all those kids and grown ups that did this shit were seclusive, depressed persons...
And I am very sad to say (again) that yes, because half the world is depressed, we'll never be able to predict a potential mass murderer.
What I found really problematic on your view of what I wrote is that you think that a healthy teen should be a "fuck the world" idiot. That's just something you bought and considerer normal. It's not. Teens often don't know the boundaries of what's a "fuck the world" phase and when to stop. The real danger resides here. When they buy that shit, they get depressed, they close themselves at home, they get guns and they plan mass murderers.
So yes, the root is depression in the way that these guys cannot relate to people, they cannot socialize and thus get away from it all. Some will want revenge...

[blueskirt]

The problem is not guns. The problem is the underdevelopment of empathy in a majority of kids and teenagers. School shooting are just the tip of the iceberg of what I would call "all the bad shit a kid can afflict to another living being". Even if you remove the guns from the equation, kids will still find ways to scar or screw up someone else' life because it's just for lulz and they don't give a shit.

It's the whole bus bullying that old lady in that vid, or all the kids bullying the crap out of each others all the time, every time, in every schools in the world, kids pushing other kids to suicide on facebook or sexual abuse of kids by kids their age, some case happening as early as primary school (I kid you not, I've heard news report of that)...

This whole mess that happens because we all leave kids to their own devices, thinking "Kids their ages, we've been there, it will pass..." 'til some bad shit like this happens. It's this whole mess, that is wayyyyys bigger than gun control, that needs to be fixed. And this is coming from a pro gun control guy. If you think guns are the problem here, you're trying to fix the wrong thing. The real problem is the crazy slow development of empathy.

[tamatic]

As for my suggestions on depression and its relation with actual mass murderers all I can say is that I didn't come up with the idea, specialists did. All my comments are based on stuff written in the internet. Some good, some bad, some better, but they all lead to that fact. And, surprise, all those kids and grown ups that did this shit were seclusive, depressed persons...
And I am very sad to say (again) that yes, because half the world is depressed, we'll never be able to predict a potential mass murderer.

Yes, that last bit is the point right? Why keep trowing with common terms and labels - to do what? Make the whole of your argument seem more professional?
In effect it's just wrongly stigmatizing people with their own problems. Like saying... yeah, them shootingpersons make their plan very strickt because that's OCD?! .....I mean... you told me you are glad I wasnt making jokes... but.. come on?
Just take a pile of common mental health related words.. feel in your gut how they might fit and just use them.

What I found really problematic on your view of what I wrote is that you think that a healthy teen should be a "fuck the world" idiot. That's just something you bought and considerer normal. It's not. Teens often don't know the boundaries of what's a "fuck the world" phase and when to stop.

Sure you have been thinking "f*ck the world" as a teen yourself. I just pointed out it is a general teen spirit that is not dangerous, on itself, but part of growing up.

The real danger resides here. When they buy that shit, they get depressed, they close themselves at home, they get guns and they plan mass murderers.
So yes, the root is depression in the way that these guys cannot relate to people, they cannot socialize and thus get away from it all. Some will want revenge...

Well, thats some nice leaps here that conveniently fit your conclusion.

To be a bit more outspoken: I don't like it when people are throwing with multiple random diagnoses. And not because I care how the shooter is perceived. But its just a bit uhm... stigmatizing for all the others dealing with the actual disorders.

[Ponch]

Where I live, people have to get a license in order to get a gun; they have to convince a public authority that they are fit to do so. In the US, anybody without a record can easily get one, and this is what I'm objecting to.

I had to apply to the state of Texas to get my CHL (concealed handgun license). They don't come free in the mail, you know. I had to fill out paperwork, write a check, and everything.

And you make fending off hobos with rebar sound a lot easier than it actually is. Plus I'm middle aged now. If something similar were to happen again, I don't think I'd stand much of a chance.

You'd be just as safe if you wore a vest and carried a riot shield, pepper spray and a baton

Of course I wouldn't. The entire point of carrying a concealed weapon is that no one knows I have it. Why invite trouble? Better to keep a low profile and hope any trouble passes me by -- which is how most of us live our lives. The only difference is that I have slightly better odds if something bad happens. It's like wearing a helmet on my motorcycle, as far as I'm concerned. Does the law require me to wear one? Nope. But I'd be a fool not to. 

And a razor sharp sword is hardly recreational gear. Further, statistically speaking, my car is much more dangerous and deadly than my gun.

And for what it's worth, per the Department of Justice's own statistics, in the US more violent criminals are shot by law abiding citizens than by police officers every year -- and by a sizable amount!

Personally, I think Blueskirt has it right. We need to find some way to reach these troubled kids. The Columbine killers were planning on killing several hundred more kids with their homemade propane bombs. It's a miracle the damn things failed to go off. There's something wrong with our society (and America's not alone in that), but it's not the fault of an inanimate object.

EDIT: And on the point that most people don't know how to make a gun, neither did the guy who made the Glock. He picked up a couple of books at the library and read them. He sat down in his kitchen and created the most popular handgun of the last thirty years. That how easy it is. Anyone can do it. Take a six week class in metal working and you to could build a Glock with material available at any hardware store. Hell, John Browning used to make machine guns in an afternoon when he had friends coming over and he wanted to show them something new. It really is just that easy for anyone who has a library card and twenty dollars worth of tools.

[miguel]

Hey, tamatic! This is not a contest about who throws the best post, man!
You have clearly touched the edge where I sense you're hanger-posting towards me. I'm not that kind of guy nor I wish to confront anybody here.
I believe you didn't read my posts all that well.
We have different opinions and that's only natural.
I never threw random diagnosis, I read what professionals thought about this issue and felt I should tell it here.
I wish we could "talk" on a more mature and friendly way, please.
For the record, I was a "fuck the world" kid but only for a while. And then I grew up.
Peace?

[Nikolas]

Somehow US citizens seem to get the impression that the rest of the world is attacking the US (not unjustifiably but anyhow). This is NOT the case here. We are talking about an insane, silly, bullshit part of your constitution that stands since the late 1700s... And since it's there it IS your right to bear arms! Well done on that!

I will try to shed some light on this (though I'm not optimistic it will sway your opinion).  It is very easy to criticize the Constitution (2nd amendment) when you do not live under that Constitution.  The second amendment made perfect sense when it was proposed (1789) and ratified (1791) given the recent war for independence (among others).  It was a vastly different world back then.  So while I would agree that the concept of the "Right to Bear Arms" is a tad antiquated in modern times it is still a part of our culture.  Yes, the beauty of the Constitution is that it can be changed but it's not like updating your Facebook profile.

Can you explain why you think it's "insane, silly and buillshit"?  My guess (just guessing) is because you think the constitutional right to bear arms is what led to the horrible events in Connecticut.  That because this man could own guns, this happened.  I do not have the statistics in front of me but I believe the percentage of gun-crimes committed by legally owned firearms is somewhere around 7%.  His "right" to own weapons had nothing to do with his decision to murder people.  His mental state led to those tragic events.  If he had no access to guns he'd have committed the atrocities in some other way (as Squinky pointed out earlier).  Must we then make it illegal to clean your kitchen? (I could make a very destructive bomb from the stuff I clean my kitchen with).

I agree that the "ease" with which a person can obtain a gun is a problem.  It should be harder to purchase a firearm.  But making it illegal just isn't going to solve any problems.  It might reduce that 7% down to 1 or 2% instead but the illegal guns aren't going away.

But see for me a gun is SO FAR OFF MY CHART of a reasonable item to hold that this part of your constitution seems silly, blah blah... It's not connected to any violent act made with guns (although there certainly is a connection): It's my amazement at this culture which seems... well... silly to me (sorry... I'll try not to generalize and I'm happy to know that you don't own a gun, etc, etc. Plus you know I love you! ^_^).

See for me a gun is a very specific item: You can either threaten to kill (injure), you can kill (injure) or you can practice doing those two things. I wouldn't mind seeing a collector of guns (which would be locked away and safely kept), but I don't think that many users keep their arms just there for no reason; it has to be one of the three above. And any of the three involve an enormous amount of violence (even if you're just thinking about it, or hold it 'just in case'). So... a gun is unlike anything else: A hunting knife falls roughly in the same category, but it can be used for hunting (and for diving... We have tons of divers here and they all own a knife, but there's been 0 kills with such knifes in Greece). A handgun is NOT for hunting (unless I'm misinformed...). A kitchen knife CAN be used to kill, but it's not there for that purpose.

So there's a huge difference between a gun and anything else.

And a law that allows owning a gun, allows for more violence.

But the point remains if other normal (Darth) countries have less or more problems with heavy restrictions on gun ownership. And my impression is that there are far less problems RIGHT NOW! Of course it will take some time and nobody is arguing that the minute the law passes everyone will leave their guns and the US will be heaven! Of course not! But I'd dare to say that after a few years (no idea on how many) things WILL be better. For everyone.

I would be curious to know (I'm at work and can't take the time to do the research right now) if in countries that have much stricter regulations on gun ownership (like Greece, Nic) did the country enact such restrictions because there were a lot of guns and gun related crimes?  Or was it done in an attempt to prevent a gun problem?

You in the US (generalizing... I know, but I don't know how else to put it) have been very lucky to be 'detached' from the rest of the world. Never invaded, never in a close war... Japan is in the other side of the world. In comparison in Greece we've had the Turkish empire on our back for 400 years, then both world wars, occupations, and a handful of civil wars (the last one ending at the end of the 40s). My father and mother lived through this civil war, and I know A LOT of people who were hunted down and locked down, killed, etc... Later on we got a dictatorship that ended in mid 70s.

So Greece has been through A LOT of turmoil and guns were a part of that. Legal guns or illegal guns. But there's always been a very specific reason (war) to have guns.

So now, we're sick a tired of such violences. And while we're getting nearer such an issue yet again, with this ugly economic crisis, you don't see anyone carrying a gun or anything. Guns are saved for a situation of war (not even in Junda!!!).

So yeah, you can bet that owning a gun is illegal here because we've simply had too much of them. Crete is still filled with firearms of various kinds and while we all love Crete and they love us, there tends to be a tiny bit of tension! Plus they have all kind of activities down there and the police can't do much...

That and if your news channels STOP portraying every murderer, every thug, every homicide constantly in the news... This is NOT happening over here and it's the ONE thing that's not poisoning our minds. We do get very pessimistic news constantly about the economy and it's killing the very same economy even further... So much so that I've been wondering if we banned news forever things in the economy would be much better (or not?), but still... News are much more influential than a Hollywood movie: Everyone knows that a movie is bullshit, but everyone knows that news are real (except for fox news?).

You'll get ZERO argument from me on this.  I cannot stand the media (not just in the USA, but the world).

Thank you. But I also get a feeling that the way that the media work differ between countries. At least from what I've seen in the UK, the US (when staying there for a week or two), Syria (brrr...) and Greece (bliah)... The amount of terror coming out of our telly is there, but it's different for each country and for a different subject.

While I'm not in the US, I've been there a few times and have many many friends from the US: I get a feeling that your love for guns is attached to your DNA somehow. The same way we Greeks have tax evasion in our DNA! But both can change and as is evident with Greece it can be done through sheer force and with dire consequences but it can be done!

But see, you've done it again.  You're generalizing and lumping all Americans as "gun lovers".  This is exactly the point I was trying to make about the "bandwagon".  I do not own a gun.  I do not intend on owning a gun.  Most of the people I know do not own guns (and most of them hate guns).  We don't walk around calling people out at high-noon to have a showdown in town square.  This is another problem I have with media because it would seem this is the impression most outside the US have of the citizens of the US based on pop-culture and media [mis]representation.

I was hoping that my note that I'm not in the US and thus I'm not sure, etc, would avoid anything like that. I'm kinda generalizing, I'll agree, because there's no other way about that, but eventually I know that everyone is different. Plus I put inside the same paragraph Greece as well, so there's a point to be made here!

[tamatic]

Hey, tamatic! This is not a contest about who throws the best post, man!
You have clearly touched the edge where I sense you're hanger-posting towards me. I'm not that kind of guy nor I wish to confront anybody here.
I believe you didn't read my posts all that well.
We have different opinions and that's only natural.
I never threw random diagnosis, I read what professionals thought about this issue and felt I should tell it here.
I wish we could "talk" on a more mature and friendly way, please.
For the record, I was a "fuck the world" kid but only for a while. And then I grew up.
Peace?

Hi, it's not personal and I just tried to be honest.
I think your intention is right, these people are indeed sick idiots. And ideally their surrounding should pick up on their derailing, and there would be help.  It's just that does not always happen.  Also there are tons of decent hermits: most are not lone wolf bonkers killers, ect.
But we are layman... and I would, for reasons already given, say we should not be speculating on diagnoses since it doesn't always makes as much sense as we like it to make. If only it did.
And the reason why I include the idea of humour is because we are "helpless" against violence. The whole idea of violence is that it crosses borders without consent. Then there is just hardly much else left than humour imo. Not mean to disrespect any earnest grief.
Anyway peace always. !

[miguel]

Yeah, I guess you're right.
And after all Nikolas and Ponch are ignoring us completely...
You know what? I think we should blame the Greek! I mean, who else uses garlic in monstrous proportions than the Greek? Of course you're having Civil Wars every couple of years!
What about Ponch? He has dinner with a bullet belt on his shoulder and never goes to toilet without a red bandana!

[tamatic]

Yeah, I guess you're right.
And after all Nikolas and Ponch are ignoring us completely...
You know what? I think we should blame the Greek! I mean, who else uses garlic in monstrous proportions than the Greek? Of course you're having Civil Wars every couple of years!
What about Ponch? He has dinner with a bullet belt on his shoulder and never goes to toilet without a red bandana!

Well the word idiot came from Greece.

[Squinky]

Nikolas, to address you point on gun collectors and keeping guns locked up:

Pretty much everyone I know that owns firearms keep them locked in massive safes. I do. And truthfully, for most people they sit in those safes most of the time. My firearms all have locks on them inside that safe, or have the bolts removed. I keep my ammunition well away from the weapons, and locked as well.

Some people carry sidearms hunting. I never have. I know lots of folks that take a sidearm when horse-riding, loaded up with shot rounds for snakes or any other aggressive animal.

[Andail]

If you have claimed here that fewer guns and stricter gun control laws mean fewer deaths by gun-related violence, then congratulations, you're correct.

You can always find some isolated deviation, but the statistics are pretty clear if you just look at them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/

To summarize:
Decline in gun ownership -> decline in deaths
Higher availability of guns -> higher risk
Stricter laws -> fewer deaths

[Nikolas]

Nikolas, to address you point on gun collectors and keeping guns locked up:

Pretty much everyone I know that owns firearms keep them locked in massive safes. I do. And truthfully, for most people they sit in those safes most of the time. My firearms all have locks on them inside that safe, or have the bolts removed. I keep my ammunition well away from the weapons, and locked as well.

Some people carry sidearms hunting. I never have. I know lots of folks that take a sidearm when horse-riding, loaded up with shot rounds for snakes or any other aggressive animal.

I already said that I don't have a problem with collectors. But the whole culture around guns seems to be creating an issue there, I think...

[Darth Mandarb]

But see for me a gun is SO FAR OFF MY CHART of a reasonable item to hold that this part of your constitution seems silly, blah blah... It's not connected to any violent act made with guns (although there certainly is a connection): It's my amazement at this culture which seems... well... silly to me (sorry... I'll try not to generalize and I'm happy to know that you don't own a gun, etc, etc. Plus you know I love you! ^_^).

See for me a gun is a very specific item: You can either threaten to kill (injure), you can kill (injure) or you can practice doing those two things. I wouldn't mind seeing a collector of guns (which would be locked away and safely kept), but I don't think that many users keep their arms just there for no reason; it has to be one of the three above. And any of the three involve an enormous amount of violence (even if you're just thinking about it, or hold it 'just in case'). So... a gun is unlike anything else: A hunting knife falls roughly in the same category, but it can be used for hunting (and for diving... We have tons of divers here and they all own a knife, but there's been 0 kills with such knifes in Greece). A handgun is NOT for hunting (unless I'm misinformed...). A kitchen knife CAN be used to kill, but it's not there for that purpose.

So there's a huge difference between a gun and anything else.

And a law that allows owning a gun, allows for more violence.

From your personal point of view I completely understand what you're getting at but, and I really hate to keep using the word, it feels like generalizing to me.  You feel (and are totally in your right to feel this way) that those three things you outlined are the only reasons to own a gun.

But, as Ponch has pointed out, there are other purposes to owning a firearm. 

My father is a collector of guns and he has made it clear to me that he would use them in self-defense if it ever became necessary but that he NEVER wants to harm another human being.  He enjoys shooting recreationally and only shoots geometric targets (not human shaped ones).  I think the argument that guns only have one purpose is flawed.  It's like saying (also as Ponch mentioned earlier) that cars (automobiles in general) ONLY exist to drive from point A to point B.  But we know this is not the case.  People dress up their cars, put in stereo systems, live in their cars, race their cars, etc.  I would agree that guns were invented as deadly weapons but like most things they've evolved to have other purposes besides killing/harming.  Yes, they are still "deadly" but so is any knife, any car, any baseball bat, etc. 

The bottom line is; it all depends on who is holding the object, not the object itself.

You in the US (generalizing... I know, but I don't know how else to put it) have been very lucky to be 'detached' from the rest of the world. Never invaded, never in a close war... Japan is in the other side of the world.

Ummm... that's completely inaccurate   From the time the first settlers set foot on American soil it was a near constant state of warfare for nearly 300 years.  Sure we don't have as much history as you guys across the pond but what we do have is, lamentably, surrounded by the fog of war.  Conflicts with all the native tribes, King Phillip's War, King Williams's, Queen Anne's, King George's, the French and Indian Wars, the Cherokee war, the war for Independence, Franco American, Barbary, the War of 1812,  Texan Independence, Mexican/American war, our own Civil War, and the Spanish/American war to round out the 19th century.  We are a nation founded and formed to the sound of gunfire.  In that context (and given how close we came to losing the Revolutionary War) it makes perfect sense to amend our constitution to allow an armed populace. 

In the 20th century... The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor wasn't the end of Japan's aggression on the USA.  They sent balloon bombs over on the jet-stream (one of them killed 5 boyscouts in northern Oregon if I'm remembering correctly) and they had documented intentions of bringing the war to our western shores (all along the west coast there are still "historical" sites where you can see the decommissioned anti-aircraft batteries that were there to ward off Japanese attacks).  Germany also had documented plans to attack the eastern shores of the continental USA as well (they were planning nuclear bombers that could reach New York).  After WWII we got ourselves embroiled in the Cold War and were under constant "threat" from soviet missles/bombers coming in over the poles and had to deal with the Soviets putting missile batteries in Cuba.

I would agree that we don't have any "close" neighbors that wish us harm.  Though I still think those Canadian bastards are plotting something...

I was hoping that my note that I'm not in the US and thus I'm not sure, etc, would avoid anything like that. I'm kinda generalizing, I'll agree, because there's no other way about that, but eventually I know that everyone is different. Plus I put inside the same paragraph Greece as well, so there's a point to be made here!

Yeah man I know what you're trying to say (and you know I love ya too!).  I am not mad (or even upset) by anything you said.  I don't let the internet get to me like that (any more).  I agree 100% that something needs to be done about the problem but I just don't think gun "control" is the answer.  A mentally disturbed, or psychotic, or just asshole person that wants to commit violence will commit said violent act whether or not they have a gun to do it with.

We should focus (as I think was Miquel and Tamata's points) on the people that are committing these acts... not the tools they commit the acts with.

[Squinky]

The more I think on it, the more I have to agree that we could use with more restrictions on gun ownership.

Currently you can't own guns if you are a Felon of any kind, or commit domestic violence. Beyond that I am uninformed. Oh, and some people on probation can't have guns either. Purchasing a gun requires a 15 minute background check and you are set. Also, committing any crime with a firearm automatically ups the penalties significantly.

More required training and safety requirements couldn't hurt. It's just that I always fear change that is spurred on by emotional issues, tragedy, things like that. There were some pretty questionable decisions regarding our liberty after 9/11. We should learn from that. 

Also, current legislation is misinformed IMO. I can see the re-in statement of the assault rifle ban soon. Which I feel is a bad place to start. Sure, all that tactical gear looks intimidating, but most gun crimes are committed with handguns. That ban also restricts hi-capacity magazines to government or law enforcement. This has minimal effect in my eyes. Folks can just pack more ten round mags. And although there are some massive magazines out there, they almost always jam. So I don't see those as the pressing issues.

So, I could live with restrictions on firearms. Although I don't think most restrictions would help as much as people want.

The bigger issue, to me, is how we handle mental health issues. I mentioned before that I had some experience in law enforcement, and I can tell you that jails are full of people who shouldn't be there. People who should be receiving proper mental care are just jammed in a cell and forgotten about. The mental health facilities WILL NOT take them unless they become a danger. Seriously. And they will not take them if they consider their mental issues to be caused by drug abuse.

And to top it off, those places are horrible. I always hated going in to them. We would keep suicidal people at the jail in a special cell and monitor them 24/7. And one of the few times the mental health facilities would take a suicidal inmate, I dropped him off at about 2 in the morning, and found out the next morning he had hung himself. Really, the whole thing makes me sick and it needs to change.

[tamatic]

Also, committing any crime with a firearm automatically ups the penalties significantly.

Ofcause in most of europe thats a funny sentence already.

I think the big difference in gun culture is the whole idea that actually threatening someone with taking his/her life is not naturel anymore. Here bugulars just leave if you turn on a lot of light and/or make noises. They are not scared to get killed or have a death penalty. So they don't arm themselves to prevent that either.
Anyway it's not simple matter. It does however make sense from a EU perspective. Just dig into the numbers, I guess.
Not that this has all that much to do with lone wolf killers.

[Ponch]

Nikolas and Ponch are ignoring us completely...

Dear Miguel,

Hello. How are you? I am fine. Today my friend Don got a new puppy. He is a yellow lab. He is very friendly but a little dumb. I wanted Don to name him Dennis because he is very goofy and friendly and full of loveable Oceanspiritedness. But Don said no. Don named him Biscuit. Also he is a she. I hope you are well and that Santa brings you lots of Christmas presents.

Your pal,

Ponch

p.s. The bandana is blue.

[miguel]

Haaaah!Dear Ponch!
Only a warm friendly post like that to rest my chilled heart!
I am very glad for Biscuit and know that you and Don will train him to be a great Military Working Dog, and my wish for this Xmas is that Biscuit survives training without PTSD!

Never before a cow was so nice to me!

ps: love the blue bandana