I don't know how to start this so I will try even though Im exiled from this forum. Some of you might know but most wont, I'm a Serbian from Yugoslavia when it was united. I now live in the United States. Recently I started using google news to learn about how my reforming home is doing. I came across this website.
http://kosovareport.blogspot.com/
After reading all of the articles on there... I don't know how to think now. Here I am never truely thinking about the Bosnian/Albanian Wars, living happy. Now I find out that the international community thinks that we are bloodthirsty psychopaths that find genocide orgasmic?
What happened to my home. I feel like I'm going to start crying and break down or just lose my mind. I can't understand why its like this. How can there be so much hate, how can WE Serbians be called these kinds of people? How can the Serbians, Albanians, Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians, Macedonians become so evil towards each other. We were brothers. We were in the same armies at the age of 18 and we were united and loved the same leader, Tito.
I doubt many of you can understand why this is affecting me, but it feels like being in a family of many brothers and all of us killing each other off. I feel like I betrayed and have been betrayed by my brothers. This is the only place I thought I could post this and be taken slightly serious.
My dad rarely likes socializing with Yugoslavs or even talking about the country now. He dosen't even like being called one. I think I understand now a little.
Why can't we all just get along?
Yes, we are all brothers and sisters sharing the same world.
It's a wonderful notion to wish that, regardless of race, religion, place of birth, culture, etc... , that we could all learn to respect each other, share and learn from each other , help each other, "live and let live".
Unfortunately, often times, some people in positions of "power" (such as political, military, religious figures), may think they (and/or their country and/or their people) are more "just, worthy, righteous" than others, oftentimes spurring a movement of prejudice, anger and hate towards others they deem "different" for not sharing thier same race / religion / culture / (insert whatever reason here for reason to cause conflict).
The world is a terrible mess, and we mainly have only ourselves (humankind) to blame really.
However, even though I as an individual who is not in a percieved position of "power" to change many of the injustices and problems that we see in the world, I can at least try to find some peace and happiness in my own life, as well as doing my best to respect and help others around me regardless of any differences we may have.
I believe that there is still a lot of goodness, kindness, and compassion out there, and it begins within ourselves to set by example. I believe that what we project from ourselves will come back to us in some ways (action - reaction).
There's no easy answer, but for me, I take things one day at a time. The past is past, I can't change it, but I can learn from it. I try to focus my attention and energies into today, and continue to work towards future goals and dreams of improving my life and the world around me - if even by a small margin.
Don't know if any of my words make much sense, just thought I'd share some of my thoughts in hopes it may be of some help.
Best wishes.
That's kind of how I feel about being an American.
I saw an interesting program about how soldiers are trained for war. It seems that humans are the only species who intentionally murder their own kind. Lions may fight for territory, but if one of them dies, it's more of an accident - usually the fight ends long before that. But even to humans killing is a rather unnatural thing. That's why soldiers and populations at war, since the beginning of time, have been told that the enemies are "pigs", "devils", "chickens", "rats", whatever... certainly not human. By taking away their humanity, the killing is made easier, and that's exactly what the people in power need in order to win the war. It's a ind of scape-goat mechanism. Hopefully, knowing this makes it easier to regard that kind of propaganda sceptically. But I guess these "reputations" still take some time to wear off. Think about the Germans, who are still struggling with a bad consciousnes about WW2, even some in the young generation, although most of them have started looking forward instead of back. Wherever they go on vacation, they can be confronted with prejudices about their people (just like so many other can). I lived one year in Berlin, and I think there's some good to a bad consciousness or "war-trauma" too, because everybody that it involves have to give those serious matters a second thought. That's a much better guarantee of social awarenss and responsibility than the unconquered and innocent "we can't be wrong"-attitude that US is showing off on the political stage these days, at least in my opinion it is.
The idea that assassination between animals does not exist is something that, without further investigations which deny this, is something I can't agree. As said, I am not sure and I can't quote the documental accuratelly, but apes do that. I've seen chimps doing that. And I am not talking of fights. I am talking of, apparently spontaneus, killings where all the group participates.
I think that can be explained because of fear. As far I as remember the "ape execution" I am talking about was because the female leader convinced the others to kill a rival. That was fear of a competitor by the leader, and fear to the leader by the rest of the crowd.
I think we and apes feel the fear in a different way than the rest of the animals. If a lion severilly hurts the other, it won't probably kill the other one because the winner won't have anything to fear of it.
But we do have fear of those who we defeat because apes and humans can claim for revenge, I think. We are indeed some king of fear animals. Revenge is common between apes and humans, whereas an animal won't probably face an enemy which has defeated it before, it wouldn't be smart in survival terms.
And sometimes we act in some way because we fear more the consequences of something that the death itself (we can suicide because we have more fear of the feels we're having than to death). An animal can't feel sorrow, or at least in a way that is going to suposse an obstacle for its survivalship, but we do. (ok ok... I know it's been published that in some american zoo a kangaroo suicided jumping to a hole after the death of his couple... Wanna know my opinion? An accident)
A gazelle will abandon its baby if it is going to supose a problem for her. A wounded cow will still eat, walk, like if anything was going on till a predator captures it. Fear and sorrow makes us behave in a different way.
And soldiers will do their job for fear. Fear to an allied bullet if they don't complete the charge (Russians in Stalingrad)... Fear to feeling very bad if your mate is killed by your fault (whatever american film war you see...) , and fear to shame (Japs suicides...).
We are strange, indeed.
This is one of my worst fears:
How do people from out of my country sees us. I'm Greek. I think that the impression we give is somewhat wrong. I now live in the Uk and I find most Greeks here (people that've spent years living here, not students), kinda "strange! Please don't kill me for that, but seing a Coffee house, the Greek way and parking cars the Greek way, seems strange in the middle of London...
It's always a problem:
How can you make judgement when your in the system you're going to judge. How can you speak for country eg. when you live in it and never had a chance to get away? On the other hand how can you judge a system, impartially, when you're out of it, completly? How can you get the necessary information?
I think that doind both of these succesfully takes a lot of time and it's called History.
Noone, can get a truthfull (whatever this means...) answer to what the Yogoslaves, Croatians, Macedonians (<-and I'm Greek, maybe the FYROMians, but huh, Macedonians seems fine...) did ten years ago. History will hopefully show the truth about things. And not only for that part of the world, but for every part that seems doubtfull to why things have happened: IRAQ, USA, VIETNAM and lot's more which I can't remember now...
And I agree with Farlander: Fear is a controling measure, that works perfectly! It's worked to me (I've been in the army, and did thousands of stupid things, though not killed, mainly because of fear). And we are a strange spieces, indeed.
Quote from: nikolasideris on Fri 16/09/2005 14:09:03
I think that doind both of these succesfully takes a lot of time and it's called History.
*History is what we make of it. Unobstructed access to the relevant sources is what is needed, so we can have impartial History. But I don't think it is feasible, there are too many people who seek power to let this happen.
*Fear is a reason, but I don't think it's humans' strongest point. We drive in a blizzard, jump from planes for fun, cross wild jungles and swim among sharks. Where is the fear in here? I don't know what it is that makes us willing to kill, but I'm not sure it's fear.
*When you are out of the system you always think the ones who belong to it are starnge, no matter how much information you've got. When you are in it, you see the outsiders as strange and don't understand why they comment on things you find normal (like parking the greek wayÃ, :P ). More than fear and power, the sense of belonging is the strongest factor, in my opinion. Or the opposite, hate for those who belong somewhere. We generally protect our family even if we risk to die or lose our money/position. We generally protect our homeland with the same risks. We find people who don't feel that way "strange" and "dangerous". We'd sacrifice many things to protect the "group" we belong to. And we modify History to suit our explanations.
Quote from: cp on Fri 16/09/2005 17:36:15
*Fear is a reason, but I don't think it's humans' strongest point. We drive in a blizzard, jump from planes for fun, cross wild jungles and swim among sharks. Where is the fear in here? I don't know what it is that makes us willing to kill, but I'm not sure it's fear.
Well this is not fear. This is defying fear! Isn't it almost the same? In both of these two we have fear!
As for the system let me give you an example:
You're in a car moving at 50 km/h.
A car moving at the opposite direction from you sees you coming at, lets say, 110 km/h.
Which is more truth, regarding your speed? You or the guy in the other car?
None!
And how is the second guy going to measure youspeed? He'll measure the 110 km/h and dedact his speed (60) and he'll find out youspeed. But in order to do that he has to measure his own speed.
Childish example but anyway you see it it's imposible to get out of every system and be impartial. And one of the greatest system we are all surrounded is Time! When time passes and we leave this system we may be able to judge more impartially bu for now I believe not.
And of course Greeks don't park. They just leave their car wherever it's suits them!
You should check Egypt and Syria (I've been there). It's funny. They have a cup in front of them along with the trafic lights showing red. So they move, give the finger to the cup and drive off smiling!!!!!!!!!! :o
Fear should be connected to survival instincts. We ignore or fight our fear to protect...what? Is it fear or something that we fear of losing? I know, fear again, but in what sense?
I agree there is no way someone can be completely detached from any system, but that's why the various communities have appeared... They are working on that... :(
Unfortunately this is what all nations do. I can see it in my country too. Education in school is always telling me how much better the Greeks are from anyone else (I'm Greek). And I'm sick of it especially when my best friends aren't Greek.
It's so ironic how a lot of people talk about people of other nationalities. My teacher today said something like "you know kids, Americans are racists to the bone" and proceeded to explain how with a stance showing rasicm against Americans.
But anyway, at least my country was against the bombings in Yugoslavia, our nations are friendly with each other. That doesn't change anything though. It's not hard for the 'powerful' to adjust the ordinary people to their needs. It's not that people are stupid, it's that they hear only half the truth.
Greeks and Turks lived very peacefully with each other in the beginning of the past century, but apparently some of the 'powerful' ones didn't want this. A result was the Armenian and Greek genocide in Turkey. Another result is that my country is now divided in half. Now we're raised to fear and hate the Turks and I suppose a similar thing happens there too. And that's only because some wise guys thought it's better this way.
Sorry for my useless rant :P
Cp, people who does that radical sports/actions ain't really scared of it. That people do not fear injuries. But they might fear some ather things, like lonelyness or... insects, who knows?
People do not voluntarilly face their fears, unless that fear is becoming more scaring than the feared thing itsel (Imagine for example anti-phobia therapies). I don't imagine those risky sportmen doing something they really fear. It is just that their definition of fear is different to our.
I agree that the sense of belonging to a family, group or nation can be surprisngly strong, but the sense that you have to go along with your group, even when it's absurdly violent, is motivated by fear of having seen what your group does to those that don't belong to it. Fear as a controlling measure in the army - I believe it. That's why I stay away from the army :-)
I found this article about "Identifying with the Aggressor", a psychological mechanism that I'm sure some of recognize to some extent, and I think it's an interesting phenomenon, in relation to both group- and individual psychology.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_8_73/ai_n6358315
About history, isn't it usually written by the "winners"?
About the Greeks and the Turks... if the people are restless, there's nothing they need more than an *enemy* to unite against and blame it on. So the people in power provide it - instead of becoming it, perhaps?
I think that what Guybrush said applied to almost any long debate I've been into in these forums. About the things changing in London, about religioin, about the USA and the ATOM bombs, about the hurricane...
It is very difficult to know the whole truth. The only thing really is to be open minded so when somebody comes and tells you that eg. Greeks are jerks, you at least start to think about what he's saying. Nobody said that, and I wish that nobody believes that. Just an example, taken the fact that I'm Greek.
And I love Greece. One thing I don't stand in the Uk. The Sun! Not the newspaper, the actuall sun.How it allways seems that it's afternoon. No morning, no midday no nothing. An 8 hour afternoon for the whole year (exageration). I can't believe how people survive in the Northern nations like Sweden, Iceland...
After what fred said. True. Find an enemy so that the people won't bother to what's happening to their own country. It works. It's proven...
ohh your story made me cry :'( i pray for world peace
25.5million Russians sacrificed themselves to save the world in WWII... I dont understand how this could be fear? And the way some of you make it sound is that there is no "right" only opinions... is that possible?
All generalisation will be wrong to a greater or lesser extent.
Except this one ;D
oh, and I think some of the Russians you mention were sacrificed by Stalin rather than themselves. Stalin was, after all, the world biggest ever genocidal maniac. The only thing was, his genocide was agianst his own people.
Quote from: shitarâ,,¢ on Fri 16/09/2005 21:38:21
25.5million Russians sacrificed themselves to save the world in WWII... I dont understand how this could be fear? And the way some of you make it sound is that there is no "right" only opinions... is that possible?
Most of them were civilians who died while Germany attempted to march through to Moscow and take over. There was fighting in the streets, that's always bloody.
Stalin kind of let it happen to unite the country against a common enemy. He also intentionally sacrificed lots of Russians just so they could get to Berlin before the Allies. I wouldn't say they did it so much willingly (except for the civilians fighting to protect their homes) as they did it from orders.
Well, because after Tito's death all citizens of Yugoslavia started to feel that they belong to their countries which hadn't have independance for over a millenium.
Plus, MiloÅ¡ević and his fellow extremists started to think that Yugoslavia shouldn't be a communist country anymore. Instead, he ignited wars with all his neighbours just to take as much as land possible for his puny little empire. He knew he couldn't conquer it all, but he started the whole bloodshed anyway. Nobody knows if the "Balvan revolucija" or incident at Plitvice or maybe even football match between Dinamo and Zvezda was the last drop but few days later it didn't even matter.
Serbia will never rise from the ashes again.Cause our goverment like to kiss asses too much.Nowdays nobody want to be a Serb everybody call themself Eurpean citizen(huh).
But there was a story about a end of the world.In it there are only the few nations survive, including Serbia.
Kosovo will be USA property how you can"t see it.It is in the middle of the Europe.
Albanians are only a dols.
You must know that true serbian people died somethime after WWII.It's sad but that is how it is.From that moment to now everybody want to be everything except SERB.
But we are PROUD of our ANCESTORS Serbia through centurys fight only a defend wars(except Tzar Dusan).
And we remember every soldier who died for our home country for his wife and children.
It"s SAD that whole world thinks that serbs are killers.TV done realy grate job on that.
These days we have a EUROPEAN basketball championship in our contry.
1995-2005 5 gold medals and two third places.1998 WORLD championsÃ, 2002 WORLD champions (in USA we beat America HAHAHAHA).Can you amercians say now that NBA is WORLD championship SHAME on your EGO.
And not to mention other sports Volleyball about 7 medals 2000 Olympic gold.Waterpolo about 6 medals 2005 WORLD champions.
Can some killers do that, do you bealive in GOD if you do you know the answer.
Shitar: Sta ima BRATE kako je you toj budjavoj zemlji nadamo se da vam je dobro(nema sarkazma you ovoj recenici niti ironije Amerika je budjava pa je budjava).
Gde zivis moj je brat otisao na University of Utah da igra kosarku(zamenio je Andre Boguta 1 pik na draftu ove godine).
Nemoj se brinuti za ovo sranje ovde Srbije vise nema sve je otislo do Dj....a.Svi su evropljani a nigde srba.A od Evrope nista a od para nista a od mozga nista....
Srbija je danas na kolenima i pusi kurac svima za sitnis.
Ali nisu svi zaboravili ko su srbi i Pravoslavnu VERU(jako malo ljudi).Svi su kvazi dobri.
Budi nam pozdravljen od moje devojke i mene.
P.S. samo nemoj verovati Americkim medijima jer mnogo lazu ispada da su srbi pobili pola Evrope.
Hamelkart is Nacist look his avatar and signature
A ti hrvatu bolje promeni avatar i signature.Ili ti je lepse da svi lepo znaju sta i ko su hrvati(nisu svi vidis ovaj Dinko(guybrush) je izgleda cestit decko).Nije lepo tolike zrtve atomske bombe(signature) i holokausta(avatar).I jos imas obraza da kazes onako nesto you postu a Hrvatska je isterala preko 400000 srba iz svojih kuca i pobila veci deo njih.
On a side note, there are two minor football (soccer teams) in the NSW league who aren't allowed to play in front of crowds.
You see, back in the day before multiculturalism really took off as an idea, a migrant group tended to be somewhat insular, and they'd form football clubs to help form a community. So there were Greek clubs, and Serb clubs and Macedonian clubs etc.
Most of the communities would move on from that and move out into the wider community. Unfortunately, that meant the remaining supporters were die hards.
And when Sydney United (Formerly Sydney Croatia) plays Bonyrigg (Formerly Sydney Serbia)....things happen.
Which at least has war behind it, unlike the clubs in Melbourne fighting over what place, where is allowed to be called Macedonia at what time.
LJUBI.
May I respectfully point you in the direction of my last message to you which you seemed to have ignored.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=16430.msg276025#msg276025
Secondly, we don't all speak foreign languages. This is an English forum from creation. For the aid of everyone else, at least provide a basic translation of what you're saying to others in English.
Thirdly. It's sport. Who really cares? Does it really matter which country can punch a ball over a net better than others?
Don't get me wrong, proudness of ancestors is a fine thing, but caring about the fact that you're Serbian and someone else is not is a very small minded way of thinking. You're not the victim of genocide for the fact that you wear glasses (research Polpot), so what's the problem? You live on Earth. Earth is multi-cultural. Try taking a look at the bigger picture before throwing your two cents into an argument. Two cents doesn't count for much if you're not even willing to check the exchange rate.
Iqu:If you realy want to know what we said we will translate you part of it.
Nowdays serbians are sucking dick to everybody for small ammount of money.
And nobody want to be Serb anymore everybody wants in Europe but for what cost?
Our nation have more than 1000000 refuges(from: Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo) and only 8000000 million citizens that means that every 8 Serb is a refuge.Is that small thing
And one more thing world as a one nation WE(me and my girlfriend) vote for it!!!!
You are realy smart guy but keep your mind on your bussines.
Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 17/09/2005 00:39:30
You are realy smart guy but keep your mind on your bussines.
Do you want to rethink that remark?Ã, Surprisingly, this is a multi-cultural, mulit-national forum.Ã, You've taken the entry test, such as it is.Ã, You should know that all it requires is a modicum of general knowledge and a vague inkling of common sense..Ã, And yet you tell me to mind my own business?Ã, I'm sorry, but bringing this subject up in a public forum, denies your right to keep it personal.Ã, The Internet, and this forum is a public affair.Ã, If you wish to conduct a private discussion, you should do so accordingly.
Can I ask why you tell me to mind my own business?Ã, Is it because I'm not a Serbian?Ã, Do you think that since I don't have the same background as you my response is not valid?Ã, It seems to me, that you're more nationalist, close-midned, and xenophobic than I first thought.Ã, Sure, you say that you're in favour of a planet that doesn't count on borders and ridiculous thoughts of seperatism, yet in the same post, you mention how every eighth person doesn't belong in your small section of the world.
I think you sit down and think about your view on the world as a whole, and not spurt the teachings of your parents, peers or school without at least questioning their judgement first.Ã, Note: "World as a whole", not "Serbia's place in the World".
EDIT: I made large grammatical errors, IE missing half a sentence. They have been fixed accordly.
Quote from: Iqu on Sat 17/09/2005 00:59:38
Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 17/09/2005 00:39:30
You are realy smart guy but keep your mind on your bussines.
yet in the same post, you mention how every eighth person doesn't belong in your small section of the world.
OOO they belong in Serbia cause they are serbs.They where dislodged from all parts of Serbia that are no longer that(parts of Serbia).
And cool down why do you take this personal
Shitar start this thread and he is Serb who is not satissfied with current shity state of our mother land.And we just shared his toughts.
Pointless.
Nation is a variable, humans are we all.
Let's say nation X and nation Y doesn't "hate each other" at the start.
When a leader (may be a president, terrorist leader, crazy general or even a saboteur) of X decides to attack nation Y, there will be people who get hurt. So these people hate nation X now. They respond and attack some people of nation X. Nation X of course "won't tolerate such attacks against our nation!" and "this crime will not go unpunished!" (typical leader speech after attack) - make more damage again...
More people gets hurt by conflict, more haters there will be. And haters do things that increase haters on opposite side.
If the conflict lasts long enough, it becomes somewhat traditional: Parents raise their kids telling that other nation is evil, kids see it theirselves while growing up in a middle of conflict, etc.
But as I said, nation is a variable. There's no matter are you X or Y. And guys in power are responsible.
People don't hate germans, not anymore. But A. Hitler's name will be still cursed, even though world has rebuilt itself and he's way gone. In war (or armed conflict), everyone's a victim. Soliders have usually 3 options, shoot, get shot at or die. Civilians have even less. That's why people elect leaders.
So,
QuoteHow can the Serbians, Albanians, Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians, Macedonians become so evil towards each other.
This way?
Oh, I see. Serbia has lost 1 000 000 refuges being sent out to other countries. Ã, I was assuming you had taken in 1 000 000 refuges, judging by you post. Ã, I thought you meant 1 in 8 people didn't belong in your country.
Besides. Ã, Assuming England has a population of 55 milllion (it's higher), then we have an "immigrant" population of 7.9+ million. Ã, More than all of Serbia. Ã, That's based on the last census that we took. Ã, Our "immigrants"now out total your entire total population. Ã, So the percentage last census was only 6.9%, it's still on the increase. The government and local councils get paid for taking in these people, my own council gets £35 000 for every person they take in. Ã, Still, it's less that 0.01% of the population that gets bothered and act on this fact. Ã, These people, thankfully, are being arrested and (as often as I can hope) convicted for their racist, self-centred and morally corrupt views. Ã, I thought you, as religious person, could understand how these people's view are ethically sick.
And as far as Sh*tar's original post goes, he asks "Why can't we all just get along?". Ã, It's true, he's been incredibly immature in the past, but he has my full respect on this subject. Ã, Everyone should be able to get along. Ã, It's people's senseless belief that a piece of land matters more than a person's life, that has crippled the world since the dawn of time. Ã, It's people who cling to an ultimately pointless notion of nationalism that half of the world's conflicts have been fought because of. Ã, It doesn't matter where a person was born, brought up, lived or died that matters. Ã, It's the fact that they are a person.
Also, on a side note, I'm not opposed to various area's having their own cultures and traditions. Ã, I just think everywhere's cultures and traditions should be open to anyone who wishes to indulge in them.
Did that immigrants of yours lost their entire familly and did terrorists burn their houses so that they never have even chance to get back.And if they get back their life will become incredibly short.
So you mention huge ammount of money? What are you think that Serbia is loaded with it.We are poor and we were poor before all the wars.Now we don't have work places.How all refuges survive what they eat where they live?GOD knows.
And those immigrant of yours are they english people?
Ask yourself WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
Did that immigrants of yours lost their entire familly and did terrorists burn their houses..
Most of our immigrants are currently coming from Kosovo and the surround areas.
So you mention huge ammount of money?
You think we see the money? Are you really that naive? Try reseaching into world debt. You'll find that most countries in Africa have enough money to feed everyone, however the people never see that money. The money all goes into stopping other countries invading. I'm sure if you traced the money from your own country, you'd find funds that could be diverted to aiding the people, and not the governments plans.
And those immigrant of yours are they english people?
Please rephrase that question so it makes sense. If you bother to research history, you'll find that the majority of our population isn't truely English. Anglo-Saxon is not English. It's a bastardisation of the English tribes, and the Germanic tribes from a thousand or more years ago. Immigrant by definition means non-native.
Ask yourself WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
Since this point doesn't even make any sense, I'm not going to justify it with a proper response. Randomly "shouting" at me isn't a recognised form of debate and doesn't make me or anyone respect you more. Until this, I was somewhat enjoying this debate. I was learning about Serbia, and Serbia people's attitude towards the world as a whole. Seeing something like this makes me think I've been wasting my time responding to an immature child's rantings, who thinks he's losing an argument (which it's not). I'm sorry if this offends you, but I thought I was discussing a situation that is close to my heart with someone who, if not an adult, at least had the respect for other people to convey his opinions as such.
Iqu:
I might be wrong as I'm in London only a year, but here are some things I've come to notice:
First of all, a lot !!!!! of immigrants seem to be Indians and Pakistans, and even the Pubs serve Chicken Tikka Massala. Of course you had "issues" (don't get me wrong) and close relationships with India, so this is justifiable.
But I guess you've been to Tescos or Sainsburys. Tell me have you seen any British working on the counter? Evenif you have it's what 5% of the people working in such places. What about IKEA and all the convinient stores. I used to live in Windsor (you know the Queens summer resort...) and still there, where generally most people living there are British, the same thing applies.
Of course here the goverment and generally laws are in favour of an equall opportunity blah blah, and I have to say that this applies most of the time. But on the other hand NHS paid 1.6 m GBP to a black female doctor.
I'm not making any accusations. Really. All I'm saying is that racist exists everywhere, no matter how much we try to mask it. And now that I live in Alperton (an Indian district) I have to confess that I had doubts about moving from paradise (Windsor) to here... It turns out its great though! Again fear works in mysterious ways...
And you really seem to be open minded and know a lot about things happening down to our countries (I'm Greek, not Serbian, or Yugoslavian...) But really I think that while the whole Balkans were under the Turks and...well being a slave for like 400 years does slow you down abit, and afterwards having wars again and again with everybody around you is frustrating at least.
As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) in the Uk and most of western Europe after WWII there was no other major incident.
And I tend to believe that burning houses and havinf the UN bombing a nation is much more than a major incident.
Anyway I sympathise Shitar and I understand what he means completely.
I am quite sure that most of the Serbs are quite cool, non racists, non ultra patriots and calmed.
I am sure LJUBI is not one of those...
This started out as an excellent thread. I was trying to understand the point of view of Shitar and actually found it to be much like my own concerning the US. Sometimes we're aware that the actions of our country are not right, with others we're uneducated about the facts and wrongly believe what we did was right. With many world events, both sides might think they were in the right and, ultimately, it often can't be proven either way.
It's interesting to hear from Greeks, particularly about the bias in their education system. It's essentially the mirror image of our own as far as nationalistic views. Oddly enough, after 12 years of basic education, we're (at least in my schools) given the impression that Greeks are superior, or -at least - more cultured and intellectual. We're invited to admire Greece because its citizens think lofty, philosophical thoughts and began the spread of civilization and democracy. Honestly, I haven't heard much else about Greece in recent history, apart from olympic events that vaguely flitted past.
The best thing we can do is communicate as people without the manipulations of media or distortions of government. If someone from the US voices support for the decision to use nukes, invade Iraq, or other unpopular views, we often get a chance to hear from the other side. The American impression of Serbia is an excellent example. Unfortunately, I'm distracted from rethinking my concept of Serbs by the incessant jingoistic nationalistic narcissism shat out by LBUJI. The way the thoughts are expressed and the ideas therein remind me of the opinions of others I discount the most. This rancid ethnocentric ranting makes me want to avoid thinking about the Serbian point of view at all (despite the contradiction that implies).
Quote from: LJUBI on Sat 17/09/2005 00:00:56
And not to mention other sports Volleyball about 7 medals 2000 Olympic gold.Waterpolo about 6 medals 2005 WORLD champions.
Can some killers do that, do you bealive in GOD if you do you know the answer.
This person would be challenging me to rethink my perspective or at least be able to form decent counter-arguments except that I refuse to debate perspective with somebody who states that (paraphrased as I understand it here) those who believe in god have their proof that Serbs aren't killers because they did well in various sports. I'm hoping that's rhetoric and not defining proof.
Quote
Hamelkart is Nacist look his avatar and signature
And I'm guessing the the desired word is "Racist". I can't make heads or tales of his signature, but assume that the Racist accusation is due to the Iron Cross-like avatar. I've yet to see anything thoughtless or offensive from Hamelkart. Maybe I've been reading the wrong threads. I discounted the avatar as having a different meaning for him, much like I wouldn't assume somebody wearing an Independent shirt was a racist because of the symbol. (http://www.underworldsk8.com/images/longtshirt/independent.jpg)
It's a strange accusation from someusing using the nick: WhiteNigga
I think that cross is a Wehrmacht cross. It is not very offensive, for me... not at all actually. You can see a lot of forums about WWII games which members have such symbols, or the face of Rommel, or Guderian... There were a lot of respectable members of the German army. Yeah, they fought, and they killed people, but so did Che Guevara and people do wear his t-shirt happily. I was named Tukachevsky in a Starcraft forums and I think nobody here would think that I have sympathies for the Red Army or Stalin. Same for German memorabilia, if we are strictly fair.
And the signature... ? Which is the problem.
And, Ah! Serbia 70 - Spain 89... Without Pau Gasol. Let's avoid sports, because... that score should mean the start of the decadence of the glorious Serbian race? Oh, come on! :P
LJUBI are my favorite posters. They remind me that I'm more intelligent than a lot of people out there. They also believe that they are more than one person, which entertains me.
Way to go, LJUBIs, way to go! To bad I won't ever have a chance to meet you guys since you won't be joining me in my noodly heaven.
BE VIGILANT
BE PLURAL
Arrrrrr,
Vince
You get a noodley heaven? No fair! Actually, I'm not jealous in the least. I'm an apathist. When I die, I go to a wonderful place where I don't ever have to do a damned thing. I get to experience the purest form of utterly apathetic oblivion. Umm... so there.
Sorry YakSpit, but your religion is just silly... :-\ just because you believe in that silly religion of yours doesn't make it true. You're going to no such place. You'll be joining the rest of the non-pirates in a very noodle-less hell unless you repent immediately and recognize his Flying Spaghetti Monsterness as the one true god.
Yar.
Sorry to bring it back to the sad name of the thread: "Why does it have to be like this?".
Well there's no answer to that, but look at us! Even through the internet we manage to figth and quarell, even though we seem to agree on most things... (I mean all of us...) :'(
You stickler for bringing things back on topic, for shame. We were having fun. Way to piss on the parade.
no, No, NO!
I believe in the monsterness! I love Past. I adore Spagheti! forgive me! ;D
Quote from: Farlander on Fri 16/09/2005 18:28:03
I don't imagine those risky sportmen doing something they really fear. It is just that their definition of fear is different to our.
I tend to agree, I guess. It may not be fear of injuries, but fear of not feeling self confident or unique. I wanted to say that if survival was the reason we kill people then fear of injury should be our strongest instinct and it isn't.
But I have noticed that those people (I don't mean the foolish show-offs) respect the security regulations. I haven't seen one of them not wearing helmet or whatever teh regulations say or checking their security belt , rope, whatever or not having all the relevant information (weather, distance etc) at hand before they proceed.
Quote from: InCreator on Sat 17/09/2005 01:49:01
If the conflict lasts long enough, it becomes somewhat traditional: Parents raise their kids telling that other nation is evil, kids see it theirselves while growing up in a middle of conflict, etc.
This is roughely how it goes. But this is a consequence of "brain-washing". A war occurs, history books write about it, peopel distrust other people's defense plans, they may start killing each other if the leaders are subtle enough to make themn believe the othe rnation is dangerous as a "nation" and conceal the fact that it is the leaders who do that. We had various wars with many nations, but we don't hate the citizens. They can be our friends, we can have mixed marriages, we certainly travel to their countries...ther's just that memory of a previous war that we are afraid of, that someone may restart the war.
There 's no other way I can explain the way we interact with them in everyday life, until someone makes us believe that even the other nation's small babies are evil.
Note: Before reading this, I want you to realize this is what I believe and that if you have issues with it... I am only allowed to voice what I believe, if it is ok with the moderators. I am not trying to start a religious war... I'm not trying to start an argument... This is what I believe, what I know, and what I live by. Remember, if you do not have anything good to say, please refrain. Thank you.
FALL OF THE ANGELS
God had made it known that a man/woman would be put above them. But Lucifer, the angel closest to God, succumbed to his pride saying, "Non serviam". Meaning: I will not serve.
FALL OF MAN
Man was made in the image of God, but since the fall of Adam and Eve, we have become proud humans that carry on this curse. Lucifer, (aka: the Devil,) was able to tempt Eve into eating the apple, then Eve was able to convince Adam to eat the apple too. It may not seem to be a big thing to eat a simple apple, but they were specifically told not to by the God that created them.
MANY CENTURIES LATER
So through the years, humans have been slandering, cheating, lying, fighting and killing because of one thing: PRIDE! (which was the original sin of man.) And the times seem like they will never change.
So how do we combat this PRIDE of ours? We must first realize that we are not gods, we cannot do anything without God's help, we must suck up our pride and be humble servants of God. We need to help each other instead of being "loners." We must stop this idea of, "I can do it, because I can." This will lead to selfishness, egotistical attitudes, and (there it is again, PRIDE!) Humility is the answer and to restore all things in Christ!
This may not help with the way you feel regarding your homeland and its current state, but hopefully it will give you some insight to why people are the way they are. Pride affects everything we do and everyone we know... God is the one we should be focusing on, not ourselves. If you offer up to God your prayers, selfless acts of mercy, good intentions, and courtesy to your fellow men, God will reward you either in this world or the next. May God bless you all!
Amen
Well.. The bible doesn't say "apple". It's "the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
Edit: I am a christian and take most of the Bible literally, but the story about Adam and Eve is most likely symbolical, in my oppinion. But that's another story... The truth is, there will never be peace in the world. According to the way I interprete the Bible, Satan still rules the world because man allowed him to take that place.
I hope this doesn't turn out to be one of those ugly debates.
Amen
rharpe: Noble words and beliefs my friend...
AMEN
Well, that was a rather literal view on christianity and the bible.
Sure, pride's a bitch, but what has it got to do with eating the apple? (isn't that just curiousity, or disobedience or whatever) Why do you nead the bible to explain the destructive sides of humanity? All these angels and devils seem sort of old-fashioned catholic to me. I think it's more fruitful trying to explain things using socio-cultural patterns and ordinary psychology.
Quote from: Andail on Thu 22/09/2005 19:01:15
I think it's more fruitful trying to explain things using socio-cultural patterns and ordinary psychology.
I do believe that some things that go back a lot of years (like religion, for one) are based mainly on socio-cultural patterns, as well as history of course.
Things that few people were clever, or open minded, or whatever enough to notice were kinda hard to pass on to others. Humanity opened its eyes when it found out that the world is not flat (!) and not the center of the unicerse. Up to then anybody with a deifferent mind was burnt...
So any new thought, at different parts of the world and at different times was pased as religion...
It's not that I don't believe or something like that but if you think about it a lot of things mentioned in religion make sense even nowdays. So it does make sense to analyse things this way. It may be old fashioned and catholic (though it could be orthodox) but then again he speaks of peace and the wrongs of pride.
As for what it has to do with eating the apple, maybe it is that Adam and Eve were too pride to hear somebody who knew better than them...
I have a simple view on this.
History repeats itself. This is because even though Technology marches on, human attitudes remain the same. You have problems when a country gets a leader. Seeing as attitudes remain the same, humans can convince others to do something by a motivation of a kind. Seeing as everyone has got similar hopes and fears (Safety, Food...) influencing people can be easy. Did anyone notice how many adverts you get about expensive stuff Ã, at christmas? People are trying to influence you then. In fact, the entire world's situation today is based upon influence. If in an election campain season, you didn't get contant TV adverts saying "Vote X as the other person has coodies!" (As this is basically what their saying!), in fact, *no* form of advert or scanilisation of either side, you'd actually vote for the one that you personally like the policies of more. Influencing the majority (and money) control the world.
Simple as pie.
And the world wasn't ever thought to be flat, that was a Victorian invention to make the Brits seem better (Making historiacal people look dumb so that the Victorians can say "Look how far we've come! - Again, influence and money)
The problem I have with most religions is that everything is extremely dogmatic. I don't think that you must
always be humble and modest, nor do I think pride is
always wrong (I'm proud of many things), nor that we owe some deity for just existing.
QuoteIf you offer up to God your prayers, selfless acts of mercy, good intentions, and courtesy to your fellow men, God will reward you either in this world or the next.
It's rather interesting that you're supposed to make "selfless acts of mercy" and still have a reward in mind? If you make offers to this God, you obviously expect something in return. That's rather selfish.
I think you can be perfectly fair, generous and unselfish and still believe that in the end (after you die or whatever) it doesn't really matter. Nobody will count all your acts and deeds and check your balance.
Quote from: Andail on Thu 22/09/2005 21:06:14
The problem I have with most religions is that everything is extremely dogmatic. I don't think that must always be humble and modest, nor do I think pride is always wrong (I'm proud of many things)
I know, and the bible actually says that being extreme is wrong.
Ecclesiastes chapter 7:15-18
...I have seen both of these:
a righteous man perishing in his righteousness,
and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.
16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwiseâ€"
why destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a foolâ€"
why die before your time?
18 It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes
^ I wish more people would emphasize on the above scripture as much as they emphasize on the rest of the bible (supposing they believe the bible)
Quote from: Andail on Thu 22/09/2005 21:06:14
Nobody will count all your acts and deeds and check your balance.
I really don't believe in after life (oh, except for zombies and residence evil and all ;D)
But sometimes I feel guilty for things I did 10-20 years ago, even though i was only 8-18 years old back then. And i think that this guilt will not go away over the years, as it is still here for like half of my life.
Well this idea is my idea of hell (i don't believe in after life). But if i am to remain with all my thoughts or something like that i want my thoughts to be nice, even with women and bare breasts and all ;D
But again for the rest of my life, which really is what counts for me, i don't want to have guilts of any kind, so i'm being relaly cautious (not with my spelling of course) to what i say and do, as not to hurt anybody.
And i really hope that ignorance can be forgiven as i am ignorant of MANY things.
Well for me, guilt is my energy and... hmmm it works just fine, although i do feel such a sucker sometimes...
i don't know but if the rest of the world was thinking like i did then at least there wouldn't be any intentional bad deeds. Just stupid things...
Guybrush: I know that the bible says so many things. It is after all so many pages, so many books (if you consider the old and the new) so... And of course when someone, whether this be a priest, your family, a prophet, asks you to believe (in) something without any kind of proof, well you have to be dogmatic in order to take it. I'm with Andail on this one...
Quote from: Guybrush PeepwoodWell.. The bible doesn't say "apple". It's "the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
You are correct sir, I stand corrected. (Many illustrations depict an apple is being eaten by our first parents.)
Quote from: Guybrush PeepwoodI am a christian and take most of the Bible literally, but the story about Adam and Eve is most likely symbolical, in my oppinion.
Mankind has to start somewhere... a man and a woman that God creates to start the generations of men doesn't sound symbolic to me at all. Only a theologian of the Catholic Church could translate the literal sense from the symbolic sense. I am
not a theologian!
Quote from: AndailIt's rather interesting that you're supposed to make "selfless acts of mercy" and still have a reward in mind? If you make offers to this God, you obviously expect something in return. That's rather selfish.
You're absolutely right... I shouldn't expect a reward in the end, that is selfish. I should just give my whole and entire self to God because He loves me so much. How do I know this? Because his only begotten son died on the cross for my sins. He died for me. So how can I return a favor like this, of such great magnitude? I must try to live as Christ taught us to, while He was on this earth. Is this even possible? Yes, but it won't be easy. I'm selfish, prideful, and full of many other vices. So how can I prove to God that I love Him? Prayer, sacrifices (small or big,) selfless acts, corporal and spiritual works of mercy, follow the ten commandments, receive the sacraments Christ instituted, and try to stay in sanctifying grace.
Quote from: AndailI think you can be perfectly fair, generous and unselfish and still believe that in the end (after you die or whatever) it doesn't really matter. Nobody will count all your acts and deeds and check your balance.
Sure, you can believe this if you like. But my question to you would be, "Why be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish or even love someone if it's all for nothing?" There
has to be a reason why we're here on this earth. There has to be a reason why we must be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish and love one another. If there is no God, we are not accountable for our actions (good or bad,) life would be a "free for all" which would make our very existence in vain.
Quote from: rharpe on Sat 24/09/2005 06:02:38
Sure, you can believe this if you like. But my question to you would be, "Why be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish or even love someone if it's all for nothing?" There has to be a reason why we're here on this earth.
After seeing my son being born I can tell you that I feel that this is the reason from me and my wife to be in this earth. And as for being good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish it is never for nothing. You're trying to tell us here that you really don't care about this life cause you will be rewarded in the next one?
I try to be all these things (succesfully or not, I'm not the one to judge) and hope that in return people will be good to me in this life. And since I sincerely believe that I'm doing the right thing (which is more or less according to the Christian rules, and I'm baptised as my son is,
becuase there is no other way to get a name in Greece! That's true! You must have a religion!!!!) so I hope that in case that there is an after life I'm covered... :)
One thing I learned about death and all myths surrounding it is this:
While you're alive there's no reason to worry about death, you're not there yet. When you're dead there's nothing you can do about it. So why worry...I don't know it just seems reasonable advice. Since my believes and deeds don't contradict the Christian way, I am ok. And my believes and deeds go according to what I think and of course what I'm taught but not what I'm dictated to do...
As far as Adam/Eve goes, of course I believe that there were originally two humans, but Adam & Eve might not be them but are there to symbolise the whole humanity. I just don't bother finding out, symbolical or not the point is the same.
But anyway, humans have built-in will to do good and not just evil. The bible says that "everyone has the law written in their hearts", meaning that you can be moral without being religious. If that weren't true, then atheists would be just evil :=
QuoteI'm baptised as my son is, becuase there is no other way to get a name in Greece!
That's the way it goes, unfortunately. In Greece the vast majority is Orthodox Christians and I got a lot of crap from my parents and kids at school because I stopped being Orthodox :P
QuoteWhy be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish or even love someone if it's all for nothing?"
I'm not religious.. but i think if people need a "higher" reason to be all that, then there's something wrong with society.
It's not all for nothing, not even for us atheists ;) it feels good, to make others happy, to love, etc.
in other words: if someone is doing this *just* for religion sake.. for a higher purpose if you want.. then.. isn't it just as "sinful" (damn, how i hate this word) as to be hateful, selfish, etc.? It's worse, if you ask me. I'd call it hypocrisy.
QuoteThere has to be a reason why we must be good, righteous, fair, generous, unselfish and love one another
sure there is.
And there is also a reason we have laws, prisons, accustomed moral conscience... religion..
It's the only way we can survive as a society.
no hard feelings i hope. a bit of "provocation" is always a good thing, i guess :)
Quote from: Guybrush PeepwoodThe bible says that "everyone has the law written in their hearts", meaning that you can be moral without being religious
Remember though, religion is the relationship between God and man.
Quote from: IgorAnd there is also a reason we have laws, prisons, accustomed moral conscience... religion..
It's the only way we can survive as a society.
Very true. Survival for what reason or purpose? If there is nothing after we die, then why would survival as a society matter?
Quote from: Igorno hard feelings i hope. a bit of "provocation" is always a good thing, i guess
None taken! Thanks for taking the time to post what you think.
I thank you all for being understanding and civil about me posting what I believe on these forums. I know we all come from different backgrounds, cultures, and countries... and may disagree on faith, morals, and the meaning of life, but the truly remarkable thing is that you didn't all gang up on me and pounce my beliefs because I don't see eye-to-eye with some of you.
It was not my intention to hijack this thread, (if that is what happened.) Shitar, I just want you to know my prayers are with you, in your time of need. God bless you and everyone here.
Quote from: rharpe on Sat 24/09/2005 14:17:15
Survival for what reason or purpose? If there is nothing after we die, then why would survival as a society matter?Ã, Ã,Â
Someone, may it be God, parents, nature, or pure luck, put us on this earth. Everybody will find his/her reasons for being here, may they be wrong, or right, evil, or good.
What we make of our lifes affects us, our families and maybe a close circle, however there are some exeptions, who have influenced through decades and milleniums and so many years, like Socrates, Ancient Egyptians (and native Americans, as well as Australians), Shakspear, Beethoven, Einstein, Hitler, Milosevich (sp). These people have influenced many more than their close circle so whatever they did may have been the reason for them to be here.
I think that monsieur et madame Curie changed the whole world, and for that I'm grateful. And greteful to so many others (even to you rharpe, for making me think these things).
So there you have the possible reason for someone to be here. :)
Threads like these make me nostalgic for the rules of the AGDI Forums:
"Please do not post links to offensive content, including but not limited to pornography, racism, offensive software/games or anything else of this nature, for obvious reasons. This also includes preaching of any religion."
Quote from: Snarky on Sat 24/09/2005 20:25:41
This also includes preaching of any religion."
We'd still have to define "preaching" and "stating your religious (or other) beliefs".
I don't see the difference. Beyond a simple "I'm a Christian (Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant etc.)/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Mormon/Scientologist/whatever," no elaboration is required. People who are interested can easily look up the details or send a query over PM.
And for the record, I consider myself an agnostic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism), in the proper sense of the word.
Quote from: Snarky on Sat 24/09/2005 20:48:10
I don't see the difference.
There are differences. And since I don't feel that any religion covers my believes, I was hoping that you wouldn't mind me explaining a little further things.
But CJ is right, cause things can get out of hand pretty easily, especially when you don't have anyone face to face. Fortunately this is not the case here.
Theres no point in arguing evolution vs. religion or spiritualism vs. religion because in the end it's just opinions that can only be SUPPORTED (not proven) by facts. Same thing with the whole "good and evil". It's opinionated. I really didn't mean to start a religious thread because it splits the AGS crowds into 2.