Recently, I read an AGS post stating that Wintermute, (a comparable AGS-type program), had introduced 3D character support into it's programming.
I checked it out, and two things were really odd:
1 - Wintermute doesn't SEEM to have any COMPLETED games. I looked around, and could only find demos or previews of upcoming titles, (even though this engine has been around for , like, 2 years or something.
2 - Wintermute forum members seem INCREDIBLY militant against AGS, and the subject, apparently, comes up often. I found quite a few posts involving AGS. When an AGS member warned about a Spammer on the AGS forums, all that followed was constant flaming. ??? It's weird that Wintermute hates AGS so much when both are completely F-R-E-E!!
I had no idea there was a war going on. ??? No one told AGSers. Wintermute rarely comes up...... if at all. Has anyone else noticed this? Did I just catch them on a bad day?
Those with a smaller weenie are often first to throw stones.
Edit:
For a more serious reply. Last time I checked nobody here is in any sort of competition with anyone. Especially with our own kind. If they have some sort of egotistical wish to be the greatest then good for them. I will be first to give them the award because I sure as hell don't want it.
I check the Wintermute forums on a semi-regular basis, and I have never noticed any sort of competitive/aggressive behavior towards AGS and its community. So I guess it was just a bad day. And even if this weren't the case, why should we care? I can't speak on behalf of all the community, but I think that if some people want to be hostile against the AGS community for whatever reason, then that's their own problem.
Oh and Sophia's Debt and Dead City are both finished games created with Wintermute. There might be more, but I haven't noticed any. But yeah, it's a bit weird that more finished games aren't available, since the engine is not complicated or anything.
What about Joe (http://forum.dead-code.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=ba381b3ee5f08722c0a7691d3ba895bbopic=708.0) .
If there's some sort of war going on then it's completely one sided. Most people here don't give a damn about engine-penis-size comparison or whatever, we just want to make games that aren't being done commercially anymore without any jerkary or prejudice about what tools we're using. If individuals get hung up about which one is better or comunity politics or blargh, they they'll never get around to making a damn good game. Which is the whole point really.
The engine's around for two years, you say? Well, then I'm not surprised only a few games have been finished with it. I mean, it usually takes a while before an engine gets well known. Sometimes it also takes a while before an engine is fully-featured. Plus, it takes 1 or 2 years to finish a game! You can't really compare some of the small, rushed AGS games with a big title like Project Joe, or The Curves of Danger. Not that AGS doesn't have it's fair share of big games, of course. But again, AGS has been around for much longer.
--Erwin
I don't think any of us should lose sleep over it, but it was just sort of a "HUH? What" moment for me. If that makes sense to anybody.
Actually, it's not terribly surprising. There were a few individuals awhile back plugging the Wintermute engine like mad. We've had posts varying from the 'friendly information' kind to 'AGS sucks'. It was the subject of a couple of arguments a year or so ago. For my part, I tried the engine and felt just a little too boxed in when it came to personalization and I didn't feel the 2D effects were useful enough to justify the increase in recommended horsepower.
It's actually a conspiracy, actually a guy named Chris Jones wrote Wintermute. He was sent by Micro$oft in a mission to stir up adventure gamers, so M$ would release their killer programme CJ offered to make - the Adventure Explorer, formerly known as Internet Adventurer...
Spoiler
What? They're all jokes of course. In my opinion, everyone can just use the programme he loves, there's no point in arguing or fighting, and I just think that in general the users of these two engines just don't interact much, none of which side has any real bad feeling to the other.
But DC, what are you trying to say we should do? If it is true that some Wintermuters flame us and we do something about it, we would be closer to those who do not act correctly... I don't see the point of caring of it.
It was just something funny that felt like sharing. I don't want this to turn into a memory-clogging discussion like that "Bible" thing a while back with 10,000 pages. It's flattering to be thought about & muddled over so often.
I understand that, but I'm seeing a problem (maybe that's just me) that the subject of this thread did imply something.
Ooo, those dastardly Wintermuters! Theys be cloggin's ours 'dventure makin' communities with theirs hoity-toity adventures engine! Thinks they're so good, huh? Well, I hope they reads my message! I'll give them a good capitalisation WITH ALL MY MIGHT! I MIGHT EVEN END WITH A FEW EXCLAIMATION MARKS AND SOME ONES! YEAH, THAT'LL SHOW 'EM! HOW DO YOU LIKES THAT, 'MUTERS? NOT SO TOUGHS NOW ARE YA? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!1!1!
Who cares.
AGS is the bigger community anyway.
AGS:Ã, Total Topics: 6519, Total Posts: 90283, Total Members: 2366
Wintermute: 5833 Posts in 726 Topics by 223 Members
Wintermute game (demo???)
Quote
Topic: Project Joe demoÃ, (Read 262 times)Ã,Â
« on: October 18, 2004, 08:39:20 AM »
AGS gameQuote
Topic: Two of a Kind - v1.01Ã, (Read 3710 times)Ã,Â
« on: 05 Nov 2004, 04:02 »
As you can see, AGS is a wooping 14 times more populair.
The word "wintermute" is mentioned in 15 posts on the ags forums, while "ags" is mentioned in 55 posts on the wintermute forums.
Conclusion: Wintermuters are obsessed with ags and agsers don't even know what wintermute is (just like me before I red this topic).
ALSO, THEY DON'T GOT MITTENS!
Quote from: jetxl on Mon 20/12/2004 13:32:45
Who cares.
Hehe.... you said that, and then wrote up a whole post showing the research you had done to explain who. :P
I wanted to know if it was a big community.
And I came to the conclusion that it isn't.
-that's all- ; )
Which community???
Exactly
;)
QuoteNote that the demo is almost 150 MB large (sorry, dial-up users...), and you will need a decent 3D accelerated videocard and at least 256 MB of RAM.
I can only imagine why people would be more prone to use AGS, though it looks like it may be worth looking into.
Oh well, I promised myself not to get involved in any game engine flamewar again, but this is a bit too much...
Quote from: DCillusion
1 - Wintermute doesn't SEEM to have any COMPLETED games.Ã, I looked around, and could only find demos or previews of upcoming titles, (even though this engine has been around for , like, 2 years or something.
As others pointed out in this thread, 1) you looked wrong 2) WME is several years younger than AGS. Personally I prefer quality over quantity and as an engine developer I've had the opportunity to see several yet unannounced projects in development and believe me that I'm pretty pleased by what I've seen so far. And that's what counts FOR ME; it makes me feel that my work isn't useless.
Quote from: DCillusion
2 - Wintermute forum members seem INCREDIBLY militant against AGS, and the subject, apparently, comes up often.Ã, I found quite a few posts involving AGS.Ã, When an AGS member warned about a Spammer on the AGS forums, all that followed was constant flaming.Ã, Ã, It's weird that Wintermute hates AGS so much when both are completely F-R-E-E!!
Uh, one word: WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
You've got to be kidding. You *really* should do a better research before starting to blame someone (especially when you are going to blame
an entire community!). Do the search again, check what the posts really say, check who posted them (members of the community or just some random bystanders?), check the dates of the posts.
Then come back here and say something about "constant flaming".
I'm very proud that the WME community is as mature as it is, there have been (almost) no stupid flamewars as far as I can remember. That's why your post made me goÃ, :o
For myself, I can only say I respect CJ's work VERY MUCH. Probably more than you can ever imagine, because I know exactly what it takes to develop and maintain the engine, provide support for the community etc. etc.
Quote from: DCillusion
I don't think any of us should lose sleep over it, but it was just sort of a "HUH? What" moment for me.Ã, If that makes sense to anybody.
Yeah, that makes two of us...Ã, :-\
Quote from: Jet X.L.
The word "wintermute" is mentioned in 15 posts on the ags forums, while "ags" is mentioned in 55 posts on the wintermute forums.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the AGS forum delete old posts? For example, I remember a nice bash-thread right after WME has been first released. Hmm, hmm.
I aplogize to all sane members of both communities for feeding the flames, but I had to say this. Thanks for reading.
Jan Nedoma, Wintermute Engine developer
Peace for all! :D
For being 2,500 memebers there has been a little amount of flames, Don't you think? :)
This "rivalities" are quite normal... But we're not soccer clubs, people marked by more than 100 years of hate and political developements... We can be in different communities but we're in time to keep this in a sensible way.
Let's work together for that.
And welcome to the community!
Yes, lets work together for CAGE!1! so we can ignore these two ancient engines. This ends the war. ;D
CAGE!1!
Well I think this thread had served its purpose already, let's not bother about it anymore...
Hello everybody,
just as a quick introduction of myself - after I've been working with almost every free available adventure engine, I'm one of the WME forum mods now - which again is not meant as rating. ;)
Quote from: DCillusion on Sun 19/12/2004 23:08:02
1 - Wintermute doesn't SEEM to have any COMPLETED games.
I looked around, and could only find demos or previews of upcoming titles, (even though this engine has been around for , like, 2 years or something.
Well - yes, but why does that surprise you ? There are some more finished or almost finished games though, not everybody is taking part in the official forum though, e.g. for language reasons. 2 years to become at least a KNOWN engine AND to develop a game are IMHO nothing. As game developer I already spent one year to finish the concept of story, locations, puzzles, etc. without creating a first scene. I don't see how this rates WME.
Quote from: DCillusion on Sun 19/12/2004 23:08:02
2 - Wintermute forum members seem INCREDIBLY militant against AGS, and the subject, apparently, comes up often. I found quite a few posts involving AGS.
Yes, indeed. I just did a search. Most of them are "I know this from AGS, maybe you could introduce something similiar in WME" or "Hi, I've been working with AGS before". I don't see and there is no "hate against AGS", why do you write that ? :(
Quote from: DCillusion on Sun 19/12/2004 23:08:02
When an AGS member warned about a Spammer on the AGS forums, all that followed was constant flaming. ???
Oh PLEASE! I remember that thread very well - please make a better research and look up WHO wrote those entries. The constant flaming followed by other AGS members who appeared once to mess around with him after weeks of internal flame war in the AGS forum.
QuoteDid I just catch them on a bad day?
Maybe it was you having a bad day, come down and relax again 8), you over-interpret things which are not there - and I'm very proud NOT to see such childish wars in our forum. No serious developer would deny the immense effort to write such an engine, the rest is just a matter of taste.
Best wishes for you and your games,
Jerrot.
Eeeer... Didn't we say "sorry" to Nmemonic?
Quote from: Farlander on Wed 22/12/2004 09:12:51
Eeeer... Didn't we say "sorry" to Nmemonic?
Err... yes, it wasn't meant to be accusing or whatever. See it as underlined "we all love each other" then. ;)
The mateys of the lovely WME have talked! So, love for all! :D
Be sure to come here for some game updates, you'll be welcome! Be sure some of us will go there to see how do you manage with that promising projects. Sure we will be welcome.
In fact... Who cares which is the engine if the game is good?
Quote from: Mnemonic on Wed 22/12/2004 07:45:36
Quote from: Jet X.L.
The word "wintermute" is mentioned in 15 posts on the ags forums, while "ags" is mentioned in 55 posts on the wintermute forums.
It might be locked, but I dont think it was deleted. Only very old posts are deleted.
I have to confess that 8 of the 55 search results for finding the word "ags" in the wintermute forum, came from other words like "fl
ags". So the word "ags" was mentioned 47 times.
AGS has quantity AND quality.
If Clair's debt was quality, then that's just a matter of opinion. I played it, I liked it, I played better free adventure games but I also played worst.
If there are more games released with wintermute, then I like to play them too.
If I will ever want to make a hi-res game that ags can't handle, Wintermute is first in line.
BUT YOU STILL DON'T HAVE MITTENS.
-that is all-
Hey Mnemonic, good to see you here.
Having just checked out Wintermute, I have to say I'm impressed about how much you've managed to accomplish in such a short period of time.
I remember the first time someone mentioned Wintermute, they gave me the URL and because it had "dead-code" in it I assumed it was a dead project and didn't bother looking into it. How far from the truth that is nowÃ, ;)
Anyway, as we've said here many times before, having a variety of adventure engines is great. It's great for game developers since they have plenty of choice to find an engine that best suits their needs; and it's great for players, because more engines leads to more games being made. And isn't that at the end of the day why we're all hereÃ, :)
QuoteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the AGS forum delete old posts? For example, I remember a nice bash-thread right after WME has been first released.
It certainly does delete old posts ... I dread to think how big the forum database would be by now if it didn't! However, that sounds like an interesting thread that you mention, I'll have to see if I can dig it up from an old backup ;)
What was this whole thread about anyway? Some kind of adventure community pissing contest? "Oh look! Our engine does this!" "So what? Ours can do this!" "So? Our community has this!" "Bah, did you do any research? Ours does this!" "So? Our willys are bigger!" "No ours are!" "No ours are!"
I'll settle this once and for all. Neither AGS nor Wintermute is the best adventure engine in the world. They're both terrible, user-unfriendly and overrated. Plus, I heard Chris Jones is a smack addict and Jan Nedoma eats babies and puppies for breakfast. How can anyone trust them and their putrid adventure engines?
The best adventure engine in the world is mine. I created DG'S AWESOME ADVENTURE GAME MAKER (DGAAGM). You know it's better than AGS and Wintermute because it has 'AWESOME' in the title with big capital letters, so it must be awesome. Download it now. It's only 55k! See, you get way better value from my engine cause it can do everything AGS and Wintermute can do but only with less space and it's AWESOME!
Get it here. (http://www.sylpher.com/AGSAwards/DGAAGM.zip)
There. Debate is over. My engine wins and all others lose.
P.S. Come to DownUnderPants, the official annual DGAAGM meeting.
Wow... I checked and that's trully an adventure game engine! Sorry Chris... Gotta move to DGAAGM...
In the other hand, and talking seriously (He, how could Chris care of me leaving with 0 games finished... ^_^) Mittens is for adventure developers... I am not managing it, but I don't see a problem in inviting any Wintermuter who likes... That would be cool.
Wow DG, I'm in awe. I'd may as well just give up right now, because DGAAGM is obviously going to be the way to go.
Damn straight. In fact, I've beat those AGD Interactive bastards with a remake of KQIII. And all done in DGAAGM.
Download it here. (http://www.progressiveboink.com/jon/kq3.zip)
I'd post it in the Completed Games forum but nazis like Chris Jones don't allow games made with other engines in that forum... Even though his engine SUCKS!
Quote1 - Wintermute doesn't SEEM to have any COMPLETED games. I looked around, and could only find demos or previews of upcoming titles, (even though this engine has been around for , like, 2 years or something.
"White Chamber".
"Dead city"
"5 magic amulets"
Overall quality of WME-made games seems to be a tad better than one of those made in AGS... And - the greatest plus - there are no system limits as to number of rooms or dialog topics.
and I thought we'd settled that there was no point contesting this over 6 months ago.
Each to his own, there is no competition between engines, and only fools and silly fanbois bother arguing about which is best.
QuoteAnd - the greatest plus - there are no system limits as to number of rooms or dialog topics.
That is a good thing. not many people come close to the artificial limits, though.
Oh good, I wasn't able to participate in this thread the first time around.
Well... I have no hate towards WME, I just prefer AGS.
QuoteOverall quality of WME-made games seems to be a tad better than one of those made in AGS...
Okay, now you can't say things like that. That's an opinion, not fact. In your opinion, the overall quality of WME games is a tad better than AGS Games.
And I disagree with that comment. Not because it's a different engine, but because I haven't played any games made with WME that have been as fun as, say, the Ben Jordan games, Pleughburg: Dark Ages, King's Quest II VGA etc...
And before someone starts yelling at me to play The Dead City, I've already played it. And I thought it was terrible. Sure it had pretty graphics, and pretty good music, but that was it. Here's a review I wrote, taken from the AdventureGamer forums:
Just downloaded it, beat it in 40 minutes, and here are my thoughts:
I didn't really like it. I thought the best part of the game was the music, which really blended well with what was happening on the screen. What I didn't like, was the gameplay. I found most of the time I played the game, I was searching screens. Not for hotspots, but for things that had changed. I would do somehting, then serach every screen I'd been to in hopes that someone had appeared that I could talk to, or something like that.
Also, the main character just bugged me.
Spoiler
He was so cliche, but wasn't even well portrayed as a stock-character. He was like an imitation of a cliche, anti-hero. For example, when he realises that Steep most likely slept with Tess' dead body, then just kills him. Sure, there's a motive, but the character is just so bland about the whole situation.
The lack of animations also really killed the game for me. When the text describes someone walking over to a door and unlocking it, then walking off into the night, only to have their sprite just dissapear, it kinda screams "Amateur Adventure".
Also, the puzzles were far too simple. I never got stuck once, and felt that a lot of the game was played for me. For example:
Spoiler
The code for the door near the end of the game was very poorly executed. By talking to Tess' ghost (How did she know the code in the first place?), you were given a hint to the code. This was all fine, and actually got me excited, thinking I'd see a neat little puzzle play out. But after learning the hint, and examining the writing on the wall, the game literally gives you the code. I mean, it gives it to you as an inventory item!
Another thing, was the characters were not very developed at all. I didn't care to learn anything about them, and they felt much like wooden blocks the whole game, instead of actual characters. Also everyone, including the junkie, talked exactly the same. This could be a translation fault, but it still bugged me.
I did enjoy playing the game, but I personally don't think it deserves the praise it's been receiving. It's still a lot better than some games out there, but it's definitely not one of the best.
So that's my take on WME. It's not bad, in fact, I don't have any gripes with it. I just haven't played a good game made with it yet.
Uh oh, who dug this one up?
Bottom line: AGS and Wintermute are not in competition. Fanboyism should be left to the graphics cards, processors and console forums and we should be all linking arms and dancing around the campfire together, happy in the knowledge that both Chris Jones and Jan Nedoma are devoting huge chunks of their free time to developing engines that enable us to create the games that no one wants to make commercially anymore. Anyone bemoaning either engine needs to take a haitus from the internet to grow up.
With love, Dark Stalkey
xx
And Dark Stalkey will have the final word on this matter.