Adventure Game Studio

Has anyone here tried Wintermute?

I recently got to their website and it looks very promising.

I would like to know that if it is as flexible as AGS? Can you make any other type of games than adventure, rpg, management games?

The games page shows very nice looking games and few commercial games in production that I have watched, are made with Wintermute which I didn't know before.

I know that I could ask these in their forum but I want to know opinions from AGS users if there are any?

I believe it's also a very flexible engine, though a bit harder to use. If you plan to make a modern looking game (high-res, sprites with an alpha channel) then I think Wintermute would be faster and more stable.

Quote from: Guybrush Peepwood on Mon 21/01/2008 16:12:13
I believe it's also a very flexible engine, though a bit harder to use. If you plan to make a modern looking game (high-res, sprites with an alpha channel) then I think Wintermute would be faster and more stable.

Really? I haven't seen any instabilities in AGS in the past couple years...

Up until AGS 3.0 was announced, Wintermute was pretty much the only decent adventure game engine out there for hi-res with d3d support, though that is no longer the case.  The few times I used it I found it rather lacking in overall features, though you can still make very good games with it if you put the effort forth.  This is true of many game engines, though!  If you are merely wondering what the benefits of wintermute are vs AGS then I would say they are so minute at this point that you should use whichever one is easiest for you to use and get help with.

At this precise point in time, the main turn-ons for newcomers to Wintermute over AGS seems to be the use of higher-res and native 3d character support.

At which point I feel it is my duty to remind, as I did just the other day on MSN, that you rarely need a higher res than 640x480, and that AGS has a Char3d plugin, an easy3d module and a 3d module+plugin.

Bottom line, they're different engines which best suit different needs and different "programming" styles. Try 'em both.

A rash of commercial Wintermute games have been released lately.

Well...two, anyway.

Art of Murder looks fairly professional. Ghost in the Sheet less so.

Another adventure engine is the Point and Click Development Kit 2, which also supports higher resolutions and such, but not native 3D characters. I've never taken the time to try it out in any meaningful fashion, though, and the URL I had for it's homepage was nearly two years out of date.::)

A bit of googling turned up the current site, which can be found here. (http://www.adventure-creator.com/?page=news&lg=e)

I do remember the GUI was fairly horrible.

Wait, this is interesting.

I've just been contacted by some people who'd like to see my LSL2 AGS sourcecode to help them with the remake of LSL2 in Wintermute. They claimed Wintermute was more professional, versatile, powerful, and had higher-res and more features.

I took a lot at their features, and they have no more feautres than AGS currently does, appart from higher res (and some screenies they showed me of a WME project looked no better than, say, Blackwell). WME has not proven itself to be more versatile, nor more powerful, and being "more professional" is a strange thing to say indeed.

What does all of this stem from? It's not that AGS is afraid of competition, as it were, but if people are being mislead like this then we must be doing something wrong. Is it our overall retro feel?

I love retro, but when it gets to a point where people use some other engine because it looks better and then go around saying it's more professional and versatile, we gotta stop and think.

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Mon 21/01/2008 22:08:14
What does all of this stem from? It's not that AGS is afraid of competition, as it were, but if people are being mislead like this then we must be doing something wrong. Is it our overall retro feel?

Is it possibly that AGS has a longer history, and therefore a substantial part of the games made with AGS don't actually use several modern features, because back then AGS didn't support them?

I do know that if you go to the games.php page and pick a game completely at random, you will very likely end up with a game that does not demonstrate the power or versatility of AGS.

Oh. Well put, I haven't thought of that.

That's very true, but it can also make a point that wintermute isn't as easy to use as ags since their library is comparatively sparse while ags has birthed hundreds and hundreds of games/demos/weird things.

Judging from the screenshots alone, Wintermute looks like it might have a slightly steeper learning curve. But I do like their use of layers for the backgrounds, which looks quite intuitive.

But overall it doesn't look as user-friendly as AGS. Which, as Progz pointed out, is probably why our database is filled with all sorts of odd stuff. Newbies can easily toss off a working game with relatively minimal effort.

Another point, which I hate to make, is that their website looks a lot neater than ours. I guess first impressions do count. When I came back to AGS years after I first downloaded it, I initially thought (from the number of broken links and stuff on our main page) that the whole thing had been abandoned! Luckily I discovered that the community here is alive and roaring. Theirs looks rather inactive in comparison. :)

It looks like i'm going to stick with AGS. Haven't tried 3.0 yet. Maybe I will try Wintermute some day :)

It sure looks promising, but still I think AGS is my thing for now :).

Wintermute has one major advantage over AGS (unless this has been fixed in 3.0 and I somehow missed it): It can do smooth scaling of alpha-channel sprites. Essentially, this means you can do good-looking high-res games, while in AGS you really can't (unless your game can do without scaling).

Oh, and as much as I admire the 3D modules and plugins, they do not add up to a "professional" 3D solution. AGS 3D is limited to 640x480, and the node perspective system used in Unbound only supports 320x200 scaling.

I'm in agreement with Snarky. However if I understand Mr Jones rightly, smooth scaling of alpha channeled sprites ought to be possible with D3D support.

I hope it will happen soon because it will significantly improve the engine in my eyes. However, I'm continuing to use AGS because of the artistic and technical support offered by AGS users and Mr J.

I've tried Wintermute. Wasn't my cup of tea. I've always loved AGS. The simple interface is something to be proud of (though, I'm a bit daunted by the new layout coming out.)
Truth be told, there really aren't many free game editors even comparable to AGS. As a visual learner, I tend to like being able to see my sprites, my GUIS, my rooms, my objects, and all the code, all in one app. There's just nothing really like that.
To be fair, AGS has it shortcomings just like every other game engine, but it would be rude to put them here. Maybe in some other thread.

I too tried Wintermute, ages past.  I see it's improved greatly since.  Last I tried the software, it would crash often during my work.

I would also agree that their community seems rather quiet compared to the AGS community.  As for the AGS website, hasn't it been the same layout since 2003, maybe before then?  I think it's fine (minus broken links, if there are any still? that's not very good), maybe it could use a makeover at some point...but not for the sake of competing with WM, that'd be silly.

But seriously, the community is the main thing that interests me about AGS - and kept me here for all these years, even just to play all of your awesome games ^_^ and WM just doesn't seem to have that right now.

I'm sure Alliance was referring to the actual program's look itself and not the website. I haven't seen anything on AGS 3.0... time to check it out!

Quote from: ManicMatt on Tue 22/01/2008 22:36:21
I'm sure Alliance was referring to the actual program's look itself and not the website. I haven't seen anything on AGS 3.0... time to check it out!

Sorry, I was referring to the post by auriond, and not alliance.  Should have quoted him there...sorry bout that.
"Another point, which I hate to make, is that their website looks a lot neater than ours."

That's what I was referring to.

Her. :)

I wasn't suggesting that the AGS website get a makeover (clings tightly to old-school blue theme), I was just pointing out something that had struck me when I returned to AGS. In actual fact, until I came here I had never heard of any of the other adventure game making software. Among the other GK fans that I used to hang out with, they too had only heard of AGS. So I guess it's pretty safe to assume that AGS is the best-known adventure game maker software out there. I just brought it up because we sometimes get a little anxious about our retro image, and Wintermute at first glance doesn't seem to have that problem.

But I love the community here. Just love it. The support here is worth a million smooth 3D sprite-scaling whatevers... ;)

I'm the same, sticking with AGS due to the community of awesome peopleâ,,¢.

I've tried wintermute and its biggest difference to AGS was, to me, that it made game making a hassle, whereas AGS makes it fun somehow. I don't know why, but I enjoy tinkering with AGS, I despised tinkering with Wintermute.

And I also agree that its funcionality isn't all that different from AGS. And with AGS 3.0 coming, I'm sure the gap's closing swiftly :)

Food for thought.

Here are the stated reasons why the person I was talking about made the switch from AGS to Wintermute, and why it stated WM was more professional, powerful and versatile. It's the kind of comparison we don't get every day.

QuoteI was using AGS for 3 years until last summer. I know all the AGS features. Wintermute was a non free engine until 1.8 version, now Wintermute is free as AGS, for commercial and not commercial games. Last summer I decided to try Wintermute and learn it. Have you tried it? I don't said that Wintermute was more professional because I don't like AGS, I say it because I saw it.

Ok, you say that graphic resolution is not important, ok, but we had a lot of problems to center the images in the rooms in AGS because the resolutions higher than 320x240 are virtuals and if you make the game at 640x480 you need to divide the pixels per 2 and don't do the graphics of pixels odd if you want to make it center in game as your preview in room edit.

More things, Wintermute let you to modify the native methods of the engine, AGS no.

Wintermute let you to add scripts in each frame of animation, AGS no.

Wintermute have a native video format and it means that the player don't need to have any codec installed in their system to see the videos, AGS no.

Wintermute let you divide the game files in packages, distributing any file on the package you want also let you to make a patch packages to resolve or update some parts of the game when it is compiled and distributed before. Only need to install the patch to update the game. If you want to change any thing in AGS you have to distribute the entire game.

Wintermute let you to put voices in the game automaticaly with the String Table Manager. You can change the audio dialogs without editing any script.

When any characyer or object makes small in the room perspective in AGS, the resize method makes pixelate this, in Wintermute no, the resize is perfect.

You can make one region (or two or three, etc) on another, in AGS you cannot make more than one region in one place, it is very util, you can meke that one object or one character only takes the properties of one of each regions and other in the same place, takes another region properties, etc.

The regions and the hotspots in AGS must be assigned in 320x240 resolution, in Wintermute it have the real game resolution.

You don't need to compile the game to test it in Wintermute, in AGS yes, I made games so big in AGS and any time I need to test, it takes some minutes to compile.

Also you can place characters in scene edit to see how it seems with the lights or zooms of the room in Wintermute, in AGS you can't.

You can see all the animations in edit windows in Wintermute, in AGS you need to run the game to see the animations on the room or guys.

The folder structure of Wintermute is the same as the disk structure, it lets you to copy, move, edit, etc. all the files of the game directly from your explorer or any program you want, this is more flexible than AGS.

You can let part of the game in the CD or DVD (for example the videos, audios, all  you want) and it don't use many hard disk space if you want, in AGS, all the game must to be in HD.

In AGS the videos are outside the game package, any player can see the videos outside the game or delete it, in Wintermute you can compile the videos inside the game package files (or not).

In animations edit window (sprite edit) you can specify any alpha transparency for each frame, in AGS no. You can attach some graphic in each frame of the animation and detach it when you want (with the script code), in AGS no.

In Wintermute you can attach videos in any part of the room, for example if the room has a TV, you can play video on it. In AGS you can't. You can resize the video at size as you want, also you can use video transparecy. Wintermute have full video integration.

In Wintermute you can import external dll as AGS programmed in C++.

In Wintermute you can config the movement of the character in any frame, in AGS, all the character frames in the animation moves equaly.

Also in Wintermute you can assign some sound or event in any frame of any animation, in AGS you can't.

You can assign a sound at any object of the game and it automaticaly sound at right or left, depending of the object position (if you want, you can disable it). The same thing with the sound of the character walking from right to left.

The debug console of Wintermute is better than AGS, you can see the code, pause this, put beak points, see all variable contents, etc.

In room edit of Wintermute, you have the objects, walkable areas, hotspots, etc. in the same window, you can see all things together (or not, you can hidde all you want).

The dialogs in Wintermute are programmed as same as the rest of the game, you can write any code inside the dialog and make what you want, in AGS the dialogs script is different than the rest of the code and you must to call a global function if you want to make something diferent than talk.

In AGS you can't export a part of the script to another game (well, you can copy and paste :P ) in Wintermute you can move or copy all the files (including code script) directly from the file explorer).

In Wintermute you can use the same script in some objects, rooms, characters, guys, etc.

In AGS the room script haven't visivility of other scripts, in Wintermute you can access to variables that you want from you want.

In Wintermute aren't limits of number of sprites, rooms, etc. You can have the quantity that you want.


I told you some of features that I see in Wintermute that AGS haven't, I didn't talk about 3D features because I want make the games in 2D, but what things can do AGS that Wintermute can't?

Try Wintermute and see it with your eyes. A game like Project Joe ( http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,433 ), this game was made with a early version of Wintermute (3 years ago), now Wintermute is better and have more features, but try to make some like this in AGS, it's imposible.

New versions of Wintermute are released every 2 or 3 months with new features.

You said that Wintermute hasn't games non adventure, this is false. The true is that AGS comunity is greater than Wintermute comunity (this is the best feature of AGS), but this is because AGS is older and popular and more people know this than Wintermute, also AGS allways was free and it make grow it's comunity. Since last year the Wintermute comunity are growing too, people like I that didn't use it before, now are trying it because it's free and can see all the features. Last month some users write a Wintermute learning book with a lot of examples ( http://res.dead-code.org/doku.php/wmebook:start)  and new good open source demos. See that game (the graphics aren't the best, but is an example of that Wintermute let you make non adventure games, like AGS and more), this is a tetris game open source, programed with Wintermute: http://offstudio.fabry.cz/mb/index.php?option=com_contentask=view&id=45&Itemid=41&lang=en

See this video: http://ru.akella.com/Files/Games/1800/video/TiB%20demo%204.avi is a commercial game, made with Wintermute, is impossible to do a game like that in AGS, in Wintermute it's easy.

The two screenshots published of new James Peris are in 640x480 but the game is at 1024x768. We can do a lot of thigs that AGS can't do.

I know how you feel, I was equal one year ago. It's hard change the usually of programme when one have used the same program since a lot of time, but I can teach you Wintermute and you will dicover all the shortages of AGS. I'm a professional programmer and I see Wintermute more flexible and more usefull, belive me.

And by the way, I did reply to the guy saying most/all the things he said that AGS couldn't do, it could now or it always could, and how, so any replies to this needn't touch that subject.

When i started my little remake of NOTH, i looked at 3 options, AGS, Wintermute and Lassie AS(flash)
TBH i dismissed AGS instantly for the simple fact the game used 3D rendered backgrounds and  in the past I've been slammed for using them by some members in the community.
The whole game apart from the main story and puzzles was radically changed, i just felt it would get ripped apart

In a way AGS is a victim of its own success, people expect the games to be old skool pixel art, and out side of the community they may not get the attention they deserve.

AGS is a lot more user friendly than Wintermute, TBH the reason I'd go with WM was the 3D support.. but i haven't looked at AGS3 yet!
Wintermute needs a lot more coding knowledge, I guess some people think that makes it more top end lol

I went with Lassie and Flash.. well till i scrapped the project lol

I'd hate to admit it but AGS is a lot better than Lassie, the only advantage is its easy to code and everything art wise looks as you drew it.. plus online playability

Edit
I've just checked out AGS v3...
What can i say.. I'm blown away! very impressed ;D

There are a few key things wintermute allows that have been suggested to CJ and he's interested in implementing them in the future, such as viewing chars/objects in a room, a new dialog interface, etc.  He also didn't discuss the learning curve differences (probably for obvious reasons).

Sure, some of the things in that list are things that Wintermute can do and AGS can't. Others of them aren't.

But if AGS and Wintermute had identical feature sets, then there'd be no point having two seperate applications, and we'd may as well merge them into WinterAGS. There are some things that Wintermute does better and some things that AGS does better, and as long as both systems are always striving to improve then at the end of the day that benefits everyone.

You're just saying that so we'll suspect nothing when the Wintermute server gets hacked :)

I never really checked Wintermute out. I had a look in their forums which seemed dead, checked out some screenshots and decided that I couldn't be bothered to learn it when I already knew AGS. Most of that list can be overcome with a bit of scripting, or has already been added, and the community here's great anyway.

The Wintermute community is small, and there are very few games. I had a look at the engine a while ago, so I cannot say anything about this "new and better" Wintermute, but what I saw back then, well, was a bunch of people so very proud about the cool features there engine had that there was no time to actually do something with them. We have our share of eternal GiPs, true, but we also have a huge database of finished games, and some of them are very good. There is STUFF being MADE.

Choices choices- these days there truly is more than one good adventure game maker out there, sure, but I do not rate a toolkit on its features alone. That's what puzzles me when I read that list Rui provided as a quote. Technical features, very special little tricks, no mention at all how good the community is.
I need people who share my interest and say "Hooray" when I make a game, and "I know how to do that!" when I need help, and "Oi, Ghost, go and GET a life" when I post something at 2 am.

The tool AGS is only half of the AGS community!
... which doesn't make any sense because without AGS there couldn't be, as it is, an AGS community... but even so, you get my point.

Quote from: Ghost on Fri 25/01/2008 23:26:47The tool AGS is only half of the AGS community!

Wait...so you're telling me now that AGS is actually a game development engine...not just an online community? :o All these years I could have been making games....

8)

But Chris is right here: AGS and Wintermute are different programs with different abilities, and they're popular (to their own respective degrees) for different reasons. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses...[sarcasm]just AGS has more strengths than Wintermute does and AGS's weakest weakness is still stronger than Wintermute's strongest strength.*[/sarcasm]** := Or at least that's what Larry tells me.

*WARNING: May or may not be propaganda. Chris Jones is in no way affiliated or associated with, nor does he endorse such statements. Chris Jones may not be held liable for such claims made by himself or anyone else, especially including those made by members of his cult-like following.
**This statement was made in a sarcastic and satirical manner and under no circumstances should be taken as literal.

Quote from: Ghost on Fri 25/01/2008 23:26:47
I do not rate a toolkit on its features alone. That's what puzzles me when I read that list Rui provided as a quote. Technical features, very special little tricks, no mention at all how good the community is.
I need people who share my interest and say "Hooray" when I make a game, and "I know how to do that!" when I need help, and "Oi, Ghost, go and GET a life" when I post something at 2 am.

The tool AGS is only half of the AGS community!

However, you could argue... in fact, I am going to argue... that a community should not be constrained by the choice of engine. Is there some reason other than chauvinism that we should say "Hooray!" when someone finishes a game in AGS, but not if they finish it in WME? No.

I think anyone who'd take a fair, unbiased look at AGS and Wintermute would conclude that both are excellent applications. (Certainly far better than the tools the workers at LucasArts and Sierra had available to them back in the day.) 90% of the process of creating a game is going to be more or less the same whichever engine you choose. Which one is right for you comes down to your specific requirements and your individual preferences--which for most people probably comes down to what they're used to.

Splitting adventure game creators into engine ghettos is not a good idea. The AGS Forums is probably the biggest and most active community there is, so we should be welcoming of those who've chosen another engine. Don't you think having the guys who are making Once Upon a Time in Japan hanging out in the Critics Lounge would be a Good Thing? Arguing all the ways in which AGS is better than WME, and this community is better than the Wintermute community, is not particularly welcoming.

One of the main criticisms I've seen against AGS by outsiders is that it's a fairly closed community, and not all that tolerant or supportive of (or interested in) other engines and the games made with them. Kind of like the way America is often seen as ignorant and dismissive of the rest of the world. I don't think it's really true, but there is that perception. Slamming other engines doesn't help with that.

@ Snarky
I'm mostly with you. I am all for games, no matter what toolkit was used to make them. One extremely good game I'm playing right now, "What Makes You Tick", was made in Lassie, another adventure game maker. And I really likes Chivalry Is Not Dead. I still actively write IF with Inform. I even tried out the PACDk, though this one really wasn't to my taste.

But: A community is a group that's connected by one certain shared interest, I think. So the most abstract shared interest would be the genre of adventure games- regardless of anything like an engine. But then this wouldn't be the AGS community, would it? You are dead right that no-one here should scoff at other peoples engines and games, and I think I've never been elite enough to think of A being superior to W- but it's not my community. We may share the interest in a genre, but not the engine.

That was, overly complicated, the point I wanted to make.

Lassie Director that was used to make "What Makes You Tick" has no where near the amount of features AGS and Wintermute have, but it is still possible to turn out decent games, John Green's "Nearly Departed demo" was also done with it. WMYT is in the top 20 adventure games of 2007 which is quite an achievement

if you wanted to compare AGS and WM against Lassie AS, the big let down is control over walkable areas and doesn't have walk on hotspots to trigger events and generally its still a Beta version, your tied to the the inventory system and verb disc, animation however is a doddle to do, the conversation system is simple to use (all be it a bit buggy) the games are cross plateform (assuming the web browser has a flash plugin) The big advantage is Flash and action script can be used to expand the game

Once the AS3 version comes out it'll be very powerful, the big disadvantage it'll need Flash CS3 along with the engine to make the game

Who has been slamming Wintermute specifically, Snarky?  I've seen people voice their opinions that they prefer one to another, or that they found wintermute difficult to use in comparison, but I haven't seen anyone say it's a horrible engine that no one should use.  Also, while CJ has maintained that non-ags games should not be discussed/posted in GiP or the completed games forum, he's never had a problem with them being discussed in General.  As far as the CL goes, I don't really have anything against people working on other engines posting their art, and there's no actual rule against it anyway.

I think the fact that WME came out won't change anything. It is an another story. Different world. Even if the software thing is better, people don't just switch from AGS to WME just because of this. I've got one example: Transport tycoon. There are a few "branches" of it with separate communities (OpenTTD, TTDPatch,..). Did people switch from TTDPatch to OTTD when it came out? No. Same with AGS, I think. AGS is a legend because of the number of games created with it, it is like playing old games when there are new available, watching old movies, it is a separate "life". I am not saying what is better. Even if WME is better, the question is: who cares?

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Fri 25/01/2008 11:11:23
Food for thought.

Many of those reasons don't stand up to closer scrutiny.

Quote
Ok, you say that graphic resolution is not important, ok, but we had a lot of problems to center the images in the rooms in AGS because the resolutions higher than 320x240 are virtuals

This really isn't such a big deal, you can center anything as long as it's an even size.

Quote
More things, Wintermute let you to modify the native methods of the engine, AGS no.

Why on earth would you ever want to do that?

Quote
Wintermute let you to add scripts in each frame of animation, AGS no.

False - repeatedly_execute (_always) does exactly that.

QuoteWintermute have a native video format and it means that the player don't need to have any codec installed in their system to see the videos, AGS no.

You don't want a native video format because other applications won't support that (for the same reason you want to use BMP/PNG/JPG rather than inventing your own graphics format). There's plenty of standard video codexes that are found on all contemporary computers.

Quote
Wintermute let you divide the game files in packages,

Completely irrelevant with contemporary hard drive sizes. The "easier to distribute patches" idea would be nice for AGS, but (1) most games don't patch a lot, and (2) it can easily be done with any kind of DIFF tool.

Et cetera et cetera et cetera.

People have the right to their opinion, of course, but backing your opinion with "facts" that are in fact misconceptions or made up entirely is very bad form.

Well, if Wintermute was better in every significant way I think that's pretty important, and I would certainly use it instead.  Based on my personal use of wintermute, however, I would say there's a fair bit of give and take between the engines, with AGS being the easier to pick up and use of the two.

Radiant - I know, and I answered the guy pretty much what you answered me.

Nevertheless, he'd been using AGS for 3 years, and then he switched to WME, and these were his arguments. That's the food for thought bit. Even if he was mis-informed about some things, that's also food.

@Snarky:

I just wanted to point out here that my comments were meant in a satirical manner. Personally I don't play many adventure games, including ones made with AGS. Most of the games I do play (which is actually relatively few) are more action-based and I tend to quickly lose interest these days. But the point is that in the end the tools used make absolutely no difference as to the quality of the finished product. If the same procedure can be done two different ways with similar or identical results, the actual method used doesn't make a difference. This isn't always true in real-life situations per se, but at least in the realm of game development it holds some validity.

If a game can be made in AGS and WME with no major differences to gameplay or user experience, what difference does it actually make which engine was used? None.

AGS does tend to have somewhat of a bit of a "close-mindedness" about them when it comes to authoring adventure games because clearly, for us, AGS is our editor/engine of choice. But this trend isn't exclusive to the AGS community. If you mention AGS in the WME forums you're likely to see similar feelings rise.

Admittedly I personally have found myself thinking "Oh well that game's being made with WME. It could be way better if it was made with AGS," but in the end this isn't necessarily true. I've never used WME myself, but I think providing reasonable exception for technical restrictions, the end product can be as high quality or as crap as the author wants it to be. Provided time and effort, it is possible to yield high quality results with both engines. In the end it simply boils down the the author's desire to "find that hidden trick to work around XX" where XX can be any of millions of possible problems one may encounter in developing a game.

I chose AGS because for me it offered the best and easiest method to achieve my goal. Of course as I have yet to release a single game of my own accord (the Palette Quest "games" aside of course 8)), but realistically I doubt I would have been more likely to have done so using WME or any of the several other engines available. The 4 years I've been here I have taught myself scripting. I have taught myself how to use the editor. I've released a few script modules and developed a whole slew of others that for one reason or another have yet to see the light of day beyond my own HDD. But all of this has been done by choice, and not due to any restrictions or limitations of AGS.

So at the end of the day, maybe we all need to just take a step back and realize that the tools used are never what makes an adventure game great. The passion and dedication of the author are what brings us to where we are now, fans of the classics both old and new. AGS, WME, Lassie, and more...the engines have all been written not to induce animosity toward our brothers (and sisters ;)) in fandom, but to bring us together in a world where the game authors aren't some huge corporation, but ourselves.

Quote from: Ghost on Sat 26/01/2008 03:21:54
But: A community is a group that's connected by one certain shared interest, I think. So the most abstract shared interest would be the genre of adventure games- regardless of anything like an engine. But then this wouldn't be the AGS community, would it? You are dead right that no-one here should scoff at other peoples engines and games, and I think I've never been elite enough to think of A being superior to W- but it's not my community. We may share the interest in a genre, but not the engine.

In my Utopian scenario, there would be one community for making adventure games, with sub-forums for the different engines and for technical questions. To me, the games and the process of making them are the main thing, and the tools only a means to an end.

If people are actually hanging out in the AGS community because they love the AGS application and engine, I guess that's fine. But I suspect that for many the real interest is in the things people make with AGS, and that's where I think being more engaged with the rest of the homebrew-adventure universe would be a good thing. Maybe, like the Oscars, have a "best foreign film game" category in the AGS Awards to honor games made in other engines?

Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 26/01/2008 14:17:49
Who has been slamming Wintermute specifically, Snarky?  I've seen people voice their opinions that they prefer one to another, or that they found wintermute difficult to use in comparison, but I haven't seen anyone say it's a horrible engine that no one should use.

Well, voh for one. I agree that people should be free to share their impressions and experiences, and given the selection bias of posters, that's obviously going to come out in AGS's favor. But stuff like auriond commenting on WME's ease-of-use just based on screenshots seems unnecessary to me, and monkey's joke cuts a little close to what some people perceive (http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php329) as AGSers' prejudice.

Quote from: Radiant on Sat 26/01/2008 20:21:43

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Ok, you say that graphic resolution is not important, ok, but we had a lot of problems to center the images in the rooms in AGS because the resolutions higher than 320x240 are virtuals

This really isn't such a big deal, you can center anything as long as it's an even size.

I think they're talking about having to align objects on a 320x200 grid even in high-resolution games. Didn't this use to involve modifying the graphic with a one-pixel transparent edge in order to position things on odd pixel numbers?

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More things, Wintermute let you to modify the native methods of the engine, AGS no.

Why on earth would you ever want to do that?

What are extender functions for? Sometimes the engine doesn't do exactly what you want. Often it'd be easier to make a small modification to a native method than write a massive workaround. Also, it makes it easier to port games to other hardware platforms.

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Wintermute let you to add scripts in each frame of animation, AGS no.

False - repeatedly_execute (_always) does exactly that.

I think they mean associating a script with a particular frame of a particular animation, the way AGS lets you assign a sound.

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QuoteWintermute have a native video format and it means that the player don't need to have any codec installed in their system to see the videos, AGS no.

You don't want a native video format because other applications won't support that (for the same reason you want to use BMP/PNG/JPG rather than inventing your own graphics format). There's plenty of standard video codexes that are found on all contemporary computers.

CJ often uses the argument against decompiling games against open-sourcing the engine. You could make a similar one in favor of proprietary video formats. However, WME actually uses Ogg Theora, and has support for some kind of AVI files, so the whole argument is irrelevant. The point is that support is included in the engine and doesn't rely on external codecs. While some codecs are found on all computers, most are not very good, are they?

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Wintermute let you divide the game files in packages,

Completely irrelevant with contemporary hard drive sizes. The "easier to distribute patches" idea would be nice for AGS, but (1) most games don't patch a lot, and (2) it can easily be done with any kind of DIFF tool.

May be irrelevant for hard drive sizes, but not for download. Even today, not everyone has broadband (less than 20% (http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10534573) of all households in the OECD, in fact). A game like Fate by Numbers (I'm not sure whether it uses WME, but it easily could do) is as much as 1.2 GB in size.

There are a lot of things AGS lets you do if you try hard enough, but that doesn't mean that it's the best way to achieve the thing, or that another engine can't offer a much simpler solution.

If I may do my own generalizing, from what I've seen the two groups that reject AGS in favor of WME are, first, people who plan high-resolution or graphically fancy games, and believe that AGS suffers from poor support/performance for their needs. This has some basis in reality: in games like Mind's Eye, Linus Bruckman, Reactor 09 (the intro) and Nelly Cootalot you can see problems.

The other group is experienced programmers, who don't worry about having to script things, but don't like aspects of AGS that they consider inelegant. This is stuff like static limits for various things, no "for" loop, a separate dialog script format, (again) having to work in 320x200 resolution internally, etc.

Obviously, a lot of these things have been fixed in recent versions of AGS, and especially in 3.0. But perceptions lag behind. Just like people here are commenting based on their experiences with WME years ago, others who gave AGS a try back in 2.6 days or so still have those impressions.

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 26/01/2008 21:31:25

Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 26/01/2008 14:17:49
Who has been slamming Wintermute specifically, Snarky?  I've seen people voice their opinions that they prefer one to another, or that they found wintermute difficult to use in comparison, but I haven't seen anyone say it's a horrible engine that no one should use.

Well, voh for one. I agree that people should be free to share their impressions and experiences, and given the selection bias of posters, that's obviously going to come out in AGS's favor. But stuff like auriond commenting on WME's ease-of-use just based on screenshots seems unnecessary to me, and monkey's joke cuts a little close to what some people perceive (http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php329) as AGSers' prejudice.

Just to clarify why I said what I did: I did not have any intention to bash Wintermute at all, in fact quite the opposite. The original post asked for opinions on Wintermute. I went and surfed around, saw the screenshots, and the first thing that struck me was that they used layers for their objects and backgrounds - something that seems quite intuitive to me, and I thought it would be one of the things I would like if I had the time to download it and try it out. So I said as much - and in the process wandered off into commenting about their website design and community...

Unneccesary? Perhaps so, but I am not a technical person, and I'm fairly new to game development in general. My look at Wintermute was based from a newbie's pov - hence judgement based on screenshots (that's what they're there for).

I think AGS can learn from this discussion. If nothing else I'm getting a better view of where AGS stands in the game-making scene.

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 26/01/2008 21:31:25
In my Utopian scenario, there would be one community for making adventure games, with sub-forums for the different engines and for technical questions. To me, the games and the process of making them are the main thing, and the tools only a means to an end.

Just as I said. Games matter. And maybe your scenario is not exactly far-fetched too- look at Adventure Gamers, they're pretty cross-platform.

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 26/01/2008 21:31:25
In my Utopian scenario, there would be one community for making adventure games, with sub-forums for the different engines and for technical questions. To me, the games and the process of making them are the main thing, and the tools only a means to an end.

I agree that this would be the ideal situation. The adventure game creation scene isn't really that big, so it would make sense to bring together the communities of the different engines, and in a sense that's what Adventure Developers are trying to achieve.

But in reality it'll never work since somebody has to manage the running of the community, and it's unlikely that everyone would agree on who that should be and who pays for it.

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 25/01/2008 21:59:55
But if AGS and Wintermute had identical feature sets, then there'd be no point having two seperate applications, and we'd may as well merge them into WinterAGS. There are some things that Wintermute does better and some things that AGS does better, and as long as both systems are always striving to improve then at the end of the day that benefits everyone.

However, with every new release the systems are getting more and more similar to each other (which is logical, considering we have basically the same goals). My theory is, that if we both had infinite time and resources, we'd end up with exactly the same product :)
Congrats on AGS 3.0 release, btw!

Hey Mnemonic, good to see you over here!  :=

Quote from: Mnemonic on Mon 28/01/2008 17:23:44
However, with every new release the systems are getting more and more similar to each other (which is logical, considering we have basically the same goals). My theory is, that if we both had infinite time and resources, we'd end up with exactly the same product :)

Hehe yes, two identical choices with different names. Maybe we should go into politics.

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Congrats on AGS 3.0 release, btw!

Thanks!

Who's that Mnemonic guy?

Keanu Reeves, obviously..

(http://www.jpoc.net/movies/j/00/johnnymnemonic.jpg)

Quote from: MrColossal on Mon 28/01/2008 22:24:37
Keanu Reeves, obviously..

(http://www.jpoc.net/movies/j/00/johnnymnemonic.jpg)

dude, we're surfers!  ....  heh.

It'd be cool, if they're both heading in the same direction and both have the same goals etc, if every now and then the coders would assist each other on various problems they might run into.  Maybe they do that already?  I don't know, something to bring us all together, build one big happy, adventure gaming family.  ;]

Would Lassie be the family's pet then, ready to save kids from remote forest fires?  ;)

I fear only for BlueCup. She'll feel so very lonesome if WME doesn't have someone for her to play with.

This whole topic is pointless. When I was deciding which engine to use I just flipped a coin.

I'd be using Wintermute right now if it had been listed above AGS in the magazine from which I read about them. It's all the fault of the alphabethical order.

I spent several hours googling back in year 200x? and came across AGS. Wintermute... I first heard about it during the 1st wintermeet/april fools thing or what ever.

I first heared about wintermute when this topic was posted.

Quote from: space boy on Mon 28/01/2008 21:35:39
Who's that Mnemonic guy?

Mnemonic is the god like person Wintermute users worship, the WM version of CJ really but without the ritual beating and soaking of wounds in freezing salt water

Just goes to show the wintermute developer lurks here, 'absorbs' ideas and puts it into his engine. No offense to you mnemonic. Just taking the piss. I think wintermute has far greater 2.5d capabilities than ags, since we have to us a plugin to get that...

And that wasn't a subtle hint CJ.  :P

I don;t recall anyone minding to create those plugins..

Quote from: Snarky on Sat 26/01/2008 21:31:25

Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 26/01/2008 14:17:49
Who has been slamming Wintermute specifically, Snarky?  I've seen people voice their opinions that they prefer one to another, or that they found wintermute difficult to use in comparison, but I haven't seen anyone say it's a horrible engine that no one should use.

Well, voh for one.

I would like to disagree staunchly that my post concerning WME's and AGS' usability was 'slamming' in any way, shape or form. Let me repeat what I posted.

QuoteI've tried wintermute and its biggest difference to AGS was, to me, that it made game making a hassle, whereas AGS makes it fun somehow. I don't know why, but I enjoy tinkering with AGS, I despised tinkering with Wintermute.

Pay close attention to the "to me", "I don't know why", "I enjoy" and "I despised".

I was stating my personal opinion based on my own personal experience. If I were 'slamming' WME, so to speak, I would be presenting these commentaries as fact. I would have omitted the safety catches (to me, etc.) and simply stated that "AGS is enjoyable to work with, while WME is despicable to work with".

Quote from: Layabout on Wed 30/01/2008 01:02:49
Just goes to show the wintermute developer lurks here, 'absorbs' ideas and puts it into his engine. No offense to you mnemonic. Just taking the piss. I think wintermute has far greater 2.5d capabilities than ags, since we have to us a plugin to get that...

I can assure you WME users are supplying me with enough ideas for several lifetimes, no need to "absorb" anything elsewhere :)
But I admit I'm visiting this forum sometimes (as well as many other adventure-related forums) simply because I love adventure games and I love game development, and AGS forum is an interesting place connecting both. (even though some people here seem to hate me and my work with passion :P)

Quote from: Pablo on Tue 29/01/2008 13:46:47
I'd be using Wintermute right now if it had been listed above AGS in the magazine from which I read about them. It's all the fault of the alphabethical order.

Darn, remind me to rename WME to something like "Absolutely Awesome Adventure Creator", that should take care of alphabetical order :)

Thanks for replying Mnemonic! I'm sure people don't hate you... they can't hate what they don't know :)

Do what someone suggested you do for naming games to beat the alphabetical list... name them starting with numbers. 1111 should do it ;) though no one would know what your program is for!

Quote from: Pablo on Tue 29/01/2008 13:46:47
I'd be using Wintermute right now if it had been listed above AGS in the magazine from which I read about them. It's all the fault of the alphabethical order.

So that is why nobody uses BHT...  ;D

Quote from: Mnemonic on Wed 30/01/2008 07:24:26

But I admit I'm visiting this forum sometimes (as well as many other adventure-related forums) simply because I love adventure games and I love game development, and AGS forum is an interesting place connecting both. (even though some people here seem to hate me and my work with passion :P)

And I admit to going to the Wintermute site and forums.

And as CJ said, people have their preferences. The only reason I use ags is because I have been in the community for about 7 years, so I am a loyal agser. Oh and it is a great engine of coarse. :P

Quote from: Mnemonic on Wed 30/01/2008 07:24:26
(even though some people here seem to hate me and my work with passion :P)

Oh don't mind them, they're just the AGS Mafia. I pay them protection money, and in exchange they keenly leap to attack anything that's not AGS. They once killed my dog because it got too near to my computer -- but I don't blame them, they were only doing their job.

Quote from: auriond on Wed 30/01/2008 07:39:02
Do what someone suggested you do for naming games to beat the alphabetical list... name them starting with numbers. 1111 should do it ;)

Yahtzee's been doing that for years! :=

Regarding AGS v Wintermute, since neither of them comes equipped with complex AI that will make my game for me, they both suck. Hooray!

Actually I don't think Wintermute existed when I first discovered AGS, so the question of choice in my case is moot.

I have to say, though, Wintermute has a number of features that really appeal to me.

What originally turned me off Wintermute was the licensing for commercial projects. Not that I ever intended to sell my game, but at least it's a nice option to have, once you've learnt how to use an engine.

That being said, I do think that the lack of finished games is what drives people away from Wintermute and towards the AGS community. Apart from Five Magical Amulets (and possibly The White Chamber), I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a classical, full length, third person game made with the engine. The fact that one of the earliest games, Dead City, and even the recently released Ghost in the Sheet are in first person (with static, original Myst style screens) gives the impression that making third person games in Wintermute must be cumbersome work. Perhaps it is, perhaps not, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Hopefully Once Upon a Time in Japan and Until I'm Gone will be able to prove this prejudice wrong.
Also, it seems to be geared towards pre-rendered backgrounds - for instance the dynamic shadows needs a 3D model of the environment to work - whereas AGS games mainly use hand drawn or pixel art. It's certainly easier to make a professional looking 2.5D game in Wintermute, and I acknowledge that a lot of adventure gamers prefer that style. But I downloaded the demo for Art of Murder (English audio, Polish text). And while it certainly looked a lot like Still Life, I noticed frequent glitches in character movement and screen changes. Perhaps it's the support of hardware acceleration that makes the engine more sensitive to different machine configurations, but it doesn't seem to be quite geared for what it's trying to accomplish yet. In AGS, on the other hand, I've at most experienced framerate drops when testing games on various hardware, the core experience has always been the same.

Quote from: GarageGothic on Wed 30/01/2008 21:49:50
That being said, I do think that the lack of finished games is what drives people away from Wintermute and towards the AGS community. Apart from Five Magical Amulets (and possibly The White Chamber), I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a classical, full length, third person game made with the engine. The fact that one of the earliest games, Dead City, and even the recently released Ghost in the Sheet are in first person (with static, original Myst style screens) gives the impression that making third person games in Wintermute must be cumbersome work. Perhaps it is, perhaps not, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Hopefully Once Upon a Time in Japan and Until I'm Gone will be able to prove this prejudice wrong.

Until I'm Gone is one of the games that are looking really promising. I  check the website often to see what's happening in that project.

Restless -  a supernatural thriller is also looking very promising. You should check that game, it looks promsing third person game. Sad thing is that it has been put on hold.

So I'm just posting an update - since this thread came up last month, I decided I'd be kind and give WME another shot.  Unfortunately for me, I'm in the same boat as Voh.  I found the engine confusing, although obviously powerful when it came time to run things, it seemed to have no troubles at all there.  But just getting around in the development environment is, well, kind of difficult.  I couldn't seem to find a way to start an empty game, which I really like doing unlike others who prefer templates.

Also, I found it difficult to import a background! I mean it would import it, but it kept showing me this error box that it took me a while to figure out was a sprite of some sort looking for the wrong image? So it's not enough to import it, I guess.

I loved that things were large, so that if I wanted to set an area I didn't have to squint to see what I was drawing or selecting.  But AGS lets you import masks, so I guess it's ok.

Another thing that irked me about the WME was that you can't just delete multiple things.  Like I said it imports this basic template with stuff in it.  They import this horrendous looking 3D character named Molly, that to remove, you have to delete the sprites of individually for each view, one at a time.  You could delete her altogether sure, but if you wanted to make a new one you had two options...Molly, or some kind of generic.  I tried to do the generic one, hoping that it'd be empty so I could import my own sprites then, but no.  It came with a male ugly 3D model instead. :/

That's about the time I gave up on it and hugged my AGS software...er well you know....virtually.

** Now I'm not trying to slam WME either, I'm just saying that for me, it didn't work out.  I gave it a second try at least...that's something some people wouldn't do.

Your reasons are similar to mine for not using WME, Red Press.  It's generally not that user-friendly for all it offers and I found the sprite arrangement method most tedious.  The simple fact it does not and will not support animated gif import as a quick way to get a full animation loaded is a rather substantial deterrent on its own, but the sheer over-complication of the sprite creation method (in spite of all the options offered) has turned a lot of people away in my experience.  When you look at root causes why one engine has more games made for it than another you can either say one has more publicity (which I think is untrue in this case) or that one is easier to pick up and use than the other, and I strongly support that view as far as ags vs wintermute goes. 

theRedPress, you probably missed one very important thing. All the files and folders you see in ProjectMan are actually files and folders on your harddisk. Which means you can freely manipulate them using the file manager of your choice. So, "importing" anything means simply copying it to the project directory.
As for templates, you wouldn't want to start a project completely from scratch, believe me.

ProgZmax, what kind of sheer over-complication are we talking about? Creating an animation in SpriteEdit means:
-creating a new file (either from template or by clicking New)
-clicking the "Add frames" button
-selecting one or more images in the file selection dialog
-setting the frame delay
-clicking the "Copy delay to all frames" button.

And that's all. All the other options are for finetuning the animations.


I think your biggest problem with WME is, that it's not AGS :) It's not, and it's not intended to be.

Quote from: Mnemonic on Thu 14/02/2008 19:02:37
theRedPress, you probably missed one very important thing. All the files and folders you see in ProjectMan are actually files and folders on your harddisk. Which means you can freely manipulate them using the file manager of your choice. So, "importing" anything means simply copying it to the project directory.
As for templates, you wouldn't want to start a project completely from scratch, believe me.

ProgZmax, what kind of sheer over-complication are we talking about? Creating an animation in SpriteEdit means:
-creating a new file (either from template or by clicking New)
-clicking the "Add frames" button
-selecting one or more images in the file selection dialog
-setting the frame delay
-clicking the "Copy delay to all frames" button.

And that's all. All the other options are for finetuning the animations.


I think your biggest problem with WME is, that it's not AGS :) It's not, and it's not intended to be.

I figured that out after the fact Mnemonic.  I want to ask you more about the engine though.  I registered on your forum so I will ask you my questions there.

Please don't try to cheapen my criticism because you perceive some engine slant on my behalf, Mnemonic.  It's unnecessary and just clouds the issue of my own observations using your engine, and why I prefer not to use it at this time.  I've used many, many engines (including coding my own) and I stand by my statement that you've unnecessarily overcomplicated things.  This often happens when you try and give people 'too much' in terms of design decisions, so I understand at least part of where you're coming from, but take new project creation for example - there's no 'blank' project option to start with (unless you offer a blank template separately, which makes no sense?) so people get to start out using your program by deleting a poser model and it's many directions before they even start out.  Now you can argue 'you don't have to delete it, just make another' but I don't personally work that way and I don't like useless stuff cluttering my design.  Second, no gif support, which you did not even address in your reply.  Molly in your template is only 236 colors and could be handled much more swiftly and conveniently were her animations saved as animated gifs and quickly imported all at once rather than as a separate sequence.  I do all my work (all) in .gif format, so you have eliminated potential users like myself by your decision not to support a very useful format, and I'd just like you to understand that.  Don't get me wrong, your engine does a lot of things right, and I give you credit for the sheer amount of features available, but at times you both overcomplicate the design process and eliminate potential users.

So why do I use AGS instead of your software?

1.  Streamlined interface.  Even more so with the 3.0 update.

2.  GIF support.  I refuse to convert hundreds of megs of data to another format (and then split the animations into separate files) simply because a piece of software won't support a perfectly valid format.

3.  Pretty extensive documentation.  WME I have found rather lacking in that area and I am a person who prefers reading to hanging around forums constantly asking questions.

4.  I prefer using one form of variable declaration (instead of var for public and global for global).  It's the way C does it and it's the way I like doing it.


Again, none of this is meant in an insulting manner, these are my personal thoughts having used your software.  I could actually get used to 1 and 4, and if you were in the very least to support gifs I would actually seriously consider using WME, but after reading some rather flatly dismissive posts on your forums about gif support I found it pointless to make the suggestion myself.  If you personally think it's an obsolete format, that's your right.  I will, however, point out that I work on games that are sold for money and 'I' use the format.  Finally, this notion that animated gifs are outdated or don't animate on their own seems rather pointless to me since you could certainly load in the header frame rate information into WME and have your engine auto-create a sprite from the animated gif with no added work required, and then it would play back at the speed I intended when I made it.  You do realize that the phone gaming industry and handhelds still use 8-bit sprites quite often, so I'm not sure where this whole obsolete notion comes in.  I would wager that the sprites in Project Joe, Chivalry Is Not Dead, and a host of other games made with your engine use sprites that use less than 256 individual colors. 


When you go to someone and ask 'why don't you use this instead of this', instead of saying their reasons are wrong or invalid I would strongly urge you to consider them.  This, perhaps, could also be part of the reason why AGS has so many users.

Let me start with a correction of a previous misunderstanding in this thread. WME doesn't use a custom video format. It just has an integrated ogg theora decoder. In general wme doesn't use of any binary custom format. Just folders, text files and raw data (png graphics, ogg vorbis music etc).

I'd also like to point that png format supports 8bit colors and even custom palettes with less colors.

As for the overcomplexity of various engines I think we should all agree that none of us holds the ultimate truth and this has nothing to do with offensive personal comments (It's no surprising but if anyone takes a look at the wme history he'll see that mnemonic does listen to feature requests). I truly respect the work done by Chris, Jan and everyone else working on game engines but, just for the sake of equality in a discussion, I'd like to point that I find wme easier to learn and use and that it has very good and well structured documentation (and I've tried almost all other engines first). That's the beauty of having many (free or not) adventure engines. Everyone can find something that suits his needs.

ProgZmax,

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Please don't try to cheapen my criticism because you perceive some engine slant on my behalf, Mnemonic.  It's unnecessary and just clouds the issue of my own observations using your engine, and why I prefer not to use it at this time.

Just how exactly did I "cheapen your criticism"? You said the sprite creation is over-complicated. I tried to explain basic sprite creation is a matter of several mouse clicks. If you think not supporting animated gifs = sheer over-complication, so be it. You find animated gif support an essential feature, I don't. I could also go into technical details about having two different formats for animations, where one doesn't (and cannot) offer all the features of the other, but I don't think this is the right time and place.

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This often happens when you try and give people 'too much' in terms of design decisions

There's a thing called design philosophy. My philosophy is to limit the users as little as possible. And I'm not going to change it just to "attract the masses".
Am I satisfied with the current tools? Of course not, and I probably never will. But my time and resources reserved for the engine/tools development are limited, so they need to be improved incrementally.

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but take new project creation for example - there's no 'blank' project option to start with (unless you offer a blank template separately, which makes no sense?) so people get to start out using your program by deleting a poser model and it's many directions before they even start out.

You assume everyone starts their project by making a new character. Maybe you do, but not everyone does. IMO it's better to start with a working skeleton game, which you can actually run, and start replacing/modifying parts of it, and still seeing the result directly in-game. Starting with a blank project directory wouldn't help anyone. There actually was a blank project template in the past and I deliberately removed it later.

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3.  Pretty extensive documentation.  WME I have found rather lacking in that area and I am a person who prefers reading to hanging around forums constantly asking questions.

I dare to say the docs work well as a reference guide, and cover like 95% of all the engine functionality. There could be more tutorials, tips etc., but again, I can't do everything. Fortunately there are some impressive community efforts, like the recently released WME book.

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4.  I prefer using one form of variable declaration (instead of var for public and global for global).  It's the way C does it and it's the way I like doing it.

Global variables use a different keyword, because they serve a different purpose. Even in C you need to use the "extern" keyword when you want to achieve similar effect, so your comparison isn't entirely valid.

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When you go to someone and ask 'why don't you use this instead of this', instead of saying their reasons are wrong or invalid I would strongly urge you to consider them.  This, perhaps, could also be part of the reason why AGS has so many users.

Firstly, I didn't ask anyone. After all those years I think I have a pretty clear idea. I just tried to correct some of the misunderstandings (and there are lots of them in this thread...). I won't bother in the future.
And if I'm perceived as someone who doesn't listen to users' suggestions, then I probably wasted the last five years of my life.

Hello,

I'm Jan Kavan, developer of Ghost in the Sheet and writer of WME book. As my work has been here taken into account, I'd like to make a few points.

First of all, I find it completely unhelpful to the case of either engine if someone tries to force one engine to another. Both engines serves their respective purposes and what I like about WME pages is that you can find on wiki pages links to other adventure engines (including AGS) for those who don't like WME. This is IMO a fair approach as it's not only you all have a freedom of choice, but this freedom is further encouraged by engine creator.

It's really sad to see this "we have it better" vs. "they have it better" behavior which belongs more to the nursery and imo violates the rules you all filled while registering to these forums.  ;)

Someone was here complaining about the fact that WME is maybe easier to make slideshow games. It's not true at all. As someone who has been in development for years (Destinies, Ghost in the Sheet, recently coming out Tale of Hero (using AGDS by FutureGames)) to make 2 1/2d game is much more expensive then to create slideshow game. It's the only reason and if you don't believe me, ask first 3d animator you meet for his/her pricelist. For destinies we paid thousands of dollars only for the main actor and handful of basic animations. If you're to create game with no budget, you probably try to cut down development costs as much as possible. That's what we did as we were 2-men team doing the game in our spare time.

One valid point here is, that WME doesn't have enough fan made games. This is what I've pointed out many times. Lots of people seeing the possibilities of WME starts to do something BIG. It doesn't work this way and many of them just failed. It's the "big-eyes" problem. On the other hand, we already have some nice games there and it's hopefully only a matter of time to see more of them coming. 

To bring the discussion back on track though, I've started with AGS too, then moved to Torque (trying TGE, TGB, TGEA) and finally ended up on WME. It simply was the engine for me and had the features I needed. I don't need to go and shout all around AGS is bad, WME rulezz, because I am grown up and I know that you here appreciate AGS more and I don't need to be missionary converting you to WME. :)

Last thing I've seen in this thread though makes me sad. Sooner or later in professional development you have to learn how to code. It reminds me of certain martial art scam policy "you'll kill your enemies without need to be strong or fast". It's nonsense and even my old unfinished games with AGS already contained a lot of scripting. So WME is heavily script oriented engine, while AGS can do without that much, but at the end of the day, you'll have to script.

On closing I don't think any of the two "camps" should bash other engines without really knowing it. I for one can't comment on new AGS because last version I've used was three years ago. Lots of comments here arise from not understanding the engine well. My WME book was meant to guide you from 0 knowledge of WME to making a simple game. It's free and if even after reading those lines you feel WME is too complicated, you have right to say this aloud. :) Before that, it's just a claim without any proofs.

I wish all the best to Chris as he made an amazing job with his engine and I wish to you more tolerance and less bashing. Engines are not what counts for players - games are...

Edit: I stand corrected - AGS has links to other engines as well.

Grouphug!

I think that the problem that many people here have had, and what they are complaining about, is that they want the features of Wintermute's engine, but the editor from AGS... People wouldn't  have tried at all if they didn't think there was an advantage to WM, but then they found it too hard for a beginner. Now, if someone wrote a book called "Wintermute for AGS users" then they'd probably have a bestseller, and all of CJ's supposedly loyal minions would defect.

Quote from: SSH on Fri 15/02/2008 10:36:17
I think that the problem that many people here have had, and what they are complaining about, is that they want the features of Wintermute's engine, but the editor from AGS... People wouldn't  have tried at all if they didn't think there was an advantage to WM, but then they found it too hard for a beginner. Now, if someone wrote a book called "Wintermute for AGS users" then they'd probably have a bestseller, and all of CJ's supposedly loyal minions would defect.

I think this is exactly it.  Wanting the familiar editor but the features of WME for certain things.  I'm not dissatisfied with AGS in the least, I use it and love it, but there are times when I wish something was simply easier to do.  Unfortunately so far, WME hasn't really shown me whether or not it will allow, whatever it is that I want - there are so many many things - if it will actually allow me to do those things.  I'm still learning it. 

I decided to give it try #3, and this time, it's war (ok I'm kidding about the war...it just reminded me of like a movie tag for a second).  I will not give up WME until I have made at least a single game in it.  If after I've learned it inside and out, if I still can't get used to it, then it's really not for me.  Because like Mnemonic has pointed out, there have been misunderstandings - and following the WME Book has shown me that things are easier than I originally thought.  You just need a good guide it seems, jumping in blindly assuming "this will be just like AGS!" will kill you.  :/

QuoteI think your biggest problem with WME is, that it's not AGS Smiley It's not, and it's not intended to be.

This is the line that cheapened my issues into simply something a fanboy would say.  These are sentences you need not write when discussing things maturely, Mnemonic.  Like I said, I've used many, many engines (in fact, I regularly use Game Maker for platform projects I have on the side) and appreciate people who, rather than immediately dismiss my statements as a result of either ignorance/fanbase slant, seriously consider them as reasonable.

Now:

Quote
There's a thing called design philosophy. My philosophy is to limit the users as little as possible. And I'm not going to change it just to "attract the masses".
Am I satisfied with the current tools? Of course not, and I probably never will. But my time and resources reserved for the engine/tools development are limited, so they need to be improved incrementally.

Your condescending opening statement aside, I happen to agree with you.  I also happen to be an Electronics Engineer with a pretty solid grasp on design theory and application.

QuoteYou assume everyone starts their project by making a new character.

No, but what I assume is the option to be available in the very least for those of us who don't need a cluttered introductory template.  I don't know a single other engine that does not provide a blank slate as an option.  You claim it wouldn't help anyone; I challenge that claim by stating quite clearly that it would help me, especially since the template doesn't really do enough to be that helpful to begin with.

QuoteGlobal variables use a different keyword, because they serve a different purpose.

So you're saying Global is your approach to allowing external variables?  That's not what I took from reading the help file, but I will concede that to misunderstanding!

QuoteFirstly, I didn't ask anyone. After all those years I think I have a pretty clear idea. I just tried to correct some of the misunderstandings (and there are lots of them in this thread...). I won't bother in the future.

No, but what you did do was jump in and tell me why my views were invalid, while at the same time dismissing me as an AGS supporter -- and that is what I found insulting.  Your reply also smacks of someone completely disinterested in actually discussing what can be improved (because you have a pretty clear idea!) and that you're not really interested in what people outside of your forum have to say, or their concerns.  That's your call.  Unfortunately, I get this same vibe from reading over the many posts on your own forum. 

Am I wrong?  It's quite possible, but you have yet to convince me. 



metamorphium:


I appreciated reading your posts and views but would challenge you on a few key points as well:

Quote
It simply was the engine for me and had the features I needed. I don't need to go and shout all around AGS is bad, WME rulezz, because I am grown up and I know that you here appreciate AGS more and I don't need to be missionary converting you to WME.

On the contrary, I would be more than willing to move to another engine if I found it superior in every important way.  As I've said before, I've used many, many engines, coded my own from scratch in VC++ some years ago and even designed my own scripting language (PLATFORMED) so I am very interested in the best tool for the job.  It doesn't matter that I like CJ or am a moderator of these forums, I've never felt some kind of undue obedience to an engine.  I do, however, love and support this community -- and I hope you feel the same of wintermute's.

Quote
Last thing I've seen in this thread though makes me sad. Sooner or later in professional development you have to learn how to code. It reminds me of certain martial art scam policy "you'll kill your enemies without need to be strong or fast". It's nonsense and even my old unfinished games with AGS already contained a lot of scripting. So WME is heavily script oriented engine, while AGS can do without that much, but at the end of the day, you'll have to script.

As I mentioned above, I designed my own scripting language so coding is not an issue with me (laziness, perhaps!).  The required scripting isn't what puts me off of WME at all, personally, and I've never commented negatively about that aspect of the engine. 

Quote
On closing I don't think any of the two "camps" should bash other engines without really knowing it.

Having used WME, both an old version and one of the latest, I do not fall into this camp.  I simply find certain areas of the UI over-obfusticated and that they could benefit from streamlining.  Also, the no gif support means I am cut from the potential userbase by default, and Mnemonic's unwillingness to address it shows that he doesn't really care. 

Thanks for your reply, and I'll be on the look out for your game.

Oh, and ondorff:

QuoteI'd also like to point that png format supports 8bit colors and even custom palettes with less colors

And I'd like to point out that png doesn't support saving as a complete animation currently -- but if it did you could be sure I would use it instead!  The problem here is that when you make an animation that is in excess of 50 frames, which is more convenient from a realistic standpoint:   saving as a series of 50 png images which then have to be loaded individually back into an engine or saving one file as a gif and loading it in all at once?  :)