Wintermute

[LimpingFish]

Do what someone suggested you do for naming games to beat the alphabetical list... name them starting with numbers. 1111 should do it

Yahtzee's been doing that for years!

Regarding AGS v Wintermute, since neither of them comes equipped with complex AI that will make my game for me, they both suck. Hooray!

Actually I don't think Wintermute existed when I first discovered AGS, so the question of choice in my case is moot.

I have to say, though, Wintermute has a number of features that really appeal to me.

[GarageGothic]

What originally turned me off Wintermute was the licensing for commercial projects. Not that I ever intended to sell my game, but at least it's a nice option to have, once you've learnt how to use an engine.

That being said, I do think that the lack of finished games is what drives people away from Wintermute and towards the AGS community. Apart from Five Magical Amulets (and possibly The White Chamber), I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a classical, full length, third person game made with the engine. The fact that one of the earliest games, Dead City, and even the recently released Ghost in the Sheet are in first person (with static, original Myst style screens) gives the impression that making third person games in Wintermute must be cumbersome work. Perhaps it is, perhaps not, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Hopefully Once Upon a Time in Japan and Until I'm Gone will be able to prove this prejudice wrong.
Also, it seems to be geared towards pre-rendered backgrounds - for instance the dynamic shadows needs a 3D model of the environment to work - whereas AGS games mainly use hand drawn or pixel art. It's certainly easier to make a professional looking 2.5D game in Wintermute, and I acknowledge that a lot of adventure gamers prefer that style. But I downloaded the demo for Art of Murder (English audio, Polish text). And while it certainly looked a lot like Still Life, I noticed frequent glitches in character movement and screen changes. Perhaps it's the support of hardware acceleration that makes the engine more sensitive to different machine configurations, but it doesn't seem to be quite geared for what it's trying to accomplish yet. In AGS, on the other hand, I've at most experienced framerate drops when testing games on various hardware, the core experience has always been the same.

[Rd27]

That being said, I do think that the lack of finished games is what drives people away from Wintermute and towards the AGS community. Apart from Five Magical Amulets (and possibly The White Chamber), I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a classical, full length, third person game made with the engine. The fact that one of the earliest games, Dead City, and even the recently released Ghost in the Sheet are in first person (with static, original Myst style screens) gives the impression that making third person games in Wintermute must be cumbersome work. Perhaps it is, perhaps not, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Hopefully Once Upon a Time in Japan and Until I'm Gone will be able to prove this prejudice wrong.

Until I'm Gone is one of the games that are looking really promising. I  check the website often to see what's happening in that project.

Restless -  a supernatural thriller is also looking very promising. You should check that game, it looks promsing third person game. Sad thing is that it has been put on hold.

[Moresco]

So I'm just posting an update - since this thread came up last month, I decided I'd be kind and give WME another shot.  Unfortunately for me, I'm in the same boat as Voh.  I found the engine confusing, although obviously powerful when it came time to run things, it seemed to have no troubles at all there.  But just getting around in the development environment is, well, kind of difficult.  I couldn't seem to find a way to start an empty game, which I really like doing unlike others who prefer templates.

Also, I found it difficult to import a background! I mean it would import it, but it kept showing me this error box that it took me a while to figure out was a sprite of some sort looking for the wrong image? So it's not enough to import it, I guess.

I loved that things were large, so that if I wanted to set an area I didn't have to squint to see what I was drawing or selecting.  But AGS lets you import masks, so I guess it's ok.

Another thing that irked me about the WME was that you can't just delete multiple things.  Like I said it imports this basic template with stuff in it.  They import this horrendous looking 3D character named Molly, that to remove, you have to delete the sprites of individually for each view, one at a time.  You could delete her altogether sure, but if you wanted to make a new one you had two options...Molly, or some kind of generic.  I tried to do the generic one, hoping that it'd be empty so I could import my own sprites then, but no.  It came with a male ugly 3D model instead. :/

That's about the time I gave up on it and hugged my AGS software...er well you know....virtually.

** Now I'm not trying to slam WME either, I'm just saying that for me, it didn't work out.  I gave it a second try at least...that's something some people wouldn't do.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Your reasons are similar to mine for not using WME, Red Press.  It's generally not that user-friendly for all it offers and I found the sprite arrangement method most tedious.  The simple fact it does not and will not support animated gif import as a quick way to get a full animation loaded is a rather substantial deterrent on its own, but the sheer over-complication of the sprite creation method (in spite of all the options offered) has turned a lot of people away in my experience.  When you look at root causes why one engine has more games made for it than another you can either say one has more publicity (which I think is untrue in this case) or that one is easier to pick up and use than the other, and I strongly support that view as far as ags vs wintermute goes. 

[Mnemonic]

theRedPress, you probably missed one very important thing. All the files and folders you see in ProjectMan are actually files and folders on your harddisk. Which means you can freely manipulate them using the file manager of your choice. So, "importing" anything means simply copying it to the project directory.
As for templates, you wouldn't want to start a project completely from scratch, believe me.

ProgZmax, what kind of sheer over-complication are we talking about? Creating an animation in SpriteEdit means:
-creating a new file (either from template or by clicking New)
-clicking the "Add frames" button
-selecting one or more images in the file selection dialog
-setting the frame delay
-clicking the "Copy delay to all frames" button.

And that's all. All the other options are for finetuning the animations.


I think your biggest problem with WME is, that it's not AGS It's not, and it's not intended to be.

[Moresco]

theRedPress, you probably missed one very important thing. All the files and folders you see in ProjectMan are actually files and folders on your harddisk. Which means you can freely manipulate them using the file manager of your choice. So, "importing" anything means simply copying it to the project directory.
As for templates, you wouldn't want to start a project completely from scratch, believe me.

ProgZmax, what kind of sheer over-complication are we talking about? Creating an animation in SpriteEdit means:
-creating a new file (either from template or by clicking New)
-clicking the "Add frames" button
-selecting one or more images in the file selection dialog
-setting the frame delay
-clicking the "Copy delay to all frames" button.

And that's all. All the other options are for finetuning the animations.


I think your biggest problem with WME is, that it's not AGS It's not, and it's not intended to be.

I figured that out after the fact Mnemonic.  I want to ask you more about the engine though.  I registered on your forum so I will ask you my questions there.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Please don't try to cheapen my criticism because you perceive some engine slant on my behalf, Mnemonic.  It's unnecessary and just clouds the issue of my own observations using your engine, and why I prefer not to use it at this time.  I've used many, many engines (including coding my own) and I stand by my statement that you've unnecessarily overcomplicated things.  This often happens when you try and give people 'too much' in terms of design decisions, so I understand at least part of where you're coming from, but take new project creation for example - there's no 'blank' project option to start with (unless you offer a blank template separately, which makes no sense?) so people get to start out using your program by deleting a poser model and it's many directions before they even start out.  Now you can argue 'you don't have to delete it, just make another' but I don't personally work that way and I don't like useless stuff cluttering my design.  Second, no gif support, which you did not even address in your reply.  Molly in your template is only 236 colors and could be handled much more swiftly and conveniently were her animations saved as animated gifs and quickly imported all at once rather than as a separate sequence.  I do all my work (all) in .gif format, so you have eliminated potential users like myself by your decision not to support a very useful format, and I'd just like you to understand that.  Don't get me wrong, your engine does a lot of things right, and I give you credit for the sheer amount of features available, but at times you both overcomplicate the design process and eliminate potential users.

So why do I use AGS instead of your software?

1.  Streamlined interface.  Even more so with the 3.0 update.

2.  GIF support.  I refuse to convert hundreds of megs of data to another format (and then split the animations into separate files) simply because a piece of software won't support a perfectly valid format.

3.  Pretty extensive documentation.  WME I have found rather lacking in that area and I am a person who prefers reading to hanging around forums constantly asking questions.

4.  I prefer using one form of variable declaration (instead of var for public and global for global).  It's the way C does it and it's the way I like doing it.


Again, none of this is meant in an insulting manner, these are my personal thoughts having used your software.  I could actually get used to 1 and 4, and if you were in the very least to support gifs I would actually seriously consider using WME, but after reading some rather flatly dismissive posts on your forums about gif support I found it pointless to make the suggestion myself.  If you personally think it's an obsolete format, that's your right.  I will, however, point out that I work on games that are sold for money and 'I' use the format.  Finally, this notion that animated gifs are outdated or don't animate on their own seems rather pointless to me since you could certainly load in the header frame rate information into WME and have your engine auto-create a sprite from the animated gif with no added work required, and then it would play back at the speed I intended when I made it.  You do realize that the phone gaming industry and handhelds still use 8-bit sprites quite often, so I'm not sure where this whole obsolete notion comes in.  I would wager that the sprites in Project Joe, Chivalry Is Not Dead, and a host of other games made with your engine use sprites that use less than 256 individual colors. 


When you go to someone and ask 'why don't you use this instead of this', instead of saying their reasons are wrong or invalid I would strongly urge you to consider them.  This, perhaps, could also be part of the reason why AGS has so many users.

[odnorf]

Let me start with a correction of a previous misunderstanding in this thread. WME doesn't use a custom video format. It just has an integrated ogg theora decoder. In general wme doesn't use of any binary custom format. Just folders, text files and raw data (png graphics, ogg vorbis music etc).

I'd also like to point that png format supports 8bit colors and even custom palettes with less colors.

As for the overcomplexity of various engines I think we should all agree that none of us holds the ultimate truth and this has nothing to do with offensive personal comments (It's no surprising but if anyone takes a look at the wme history he'll see that mnemonic does listen to feature requests). I truly respect the work done by Chris, Jan and everyone else working on game engines but, just for the sake of equality in a discussion, I'd like to point that I find wme easier to learn and use and that it has very good and well structured documentation (and I've tried almost all other engines first). That's the beauty of having many (free or not) adventure engines. Everyone can find something that suits his needs.

[Mnemonic]

ProgZmax,

Please don't try to cheapen my criticism because you perceive some engine slant on my behalf, Mnemonic.  It's unnecessary and just clouds the issue of my own observations using your engine, and why I prefer not to use it at this time.

Just how exactly did I "cheapen your criticism"? You said the sprite creation is over-complicated. I tried to explain basic sprite creation is a matter of several mouse clicks. If you think not supporting animated gifs = sheer over-complication, so be it. You find animated gif support an essential feature, I don't. I could also go into technical details about having two different formats for animations, where one doesn't (and cannot) offer all the features of the other, but I don't think this is the right time and place.

This often happens when you try and give people 'too much' in terms of design decisions

There's a thing called design philosophy. My philosophy is to limit the users as little as possible. And I'm not going to change it just to "attract the masses".
Am I satisfied with the current tools? Of course not, and I probably never will. But my time and resources reserved for the engine/tools development are limited, so they need to be improved incrementally.

but take new project creation for example - there's no 'blank' project option to start with (unless you offer a blank template separately, which makes no sense?) so people get to start out using your program by deleting a poser model and it's many directions before they even start out.

You assume everyone starts their project by making a new character. Maybe you do, but not everyone does. IMO it's better to start with a working skeleton game, which you can actually run, and start replacing/modifying parts of it, and still seeing the result directly in-game. Starting with a blank project directory wouldn't help anyone. There actually was a blank project template in the past and I deliberately removed it later.

3.  Pretty extensive documentation.  WME I have found rather lacking in that area and I am a person who prefers reading to hanging around forums constantly asking questions.

I dare to say the docs work well as a reference guide, and cover like 95% of all the engine functionality. There could be more tutorials, tips etc., but again, I can't do everything. Fortunately there are some impressive community efforts, like the recently released WME book.

4.  I prefer using one form of variable declaration (instead of var for public and global for global).  It's the way C does it and it's the way I like doing it.

Global variables use a different keyword, because they serve a different purpose. Even in C you need to use the "extern" keyword when you want to achieve similar effect, so your comparison isn't entirely valid.

When you go to someone and ask 'why don't you use this instead of this', instead of saying their reasons are wrong or invalid I would strongly urge you to consider them.  This, perhaps, could also be part of the reason why AGS has so many users.

Firstly, I didn't ask anyone. After all those years I think I have a pretty clear idea. I just tried to correct some of the misunderstandings (and there are lots of them in this thread...). I won't bother in the future.
And if I'm perceived as someone who doesn't listen to users' suggestions, then I probably wasted the last five years of my life.

[metamorphium]

Hello,

I'm Jan Kavan, developer of Ghost in the Sheet and writer of WME book. As my work has been here taken into account, I'd like to make a few points.

First of all, I find it completely unhelpful to the case of either engine if someone tries to force one engine to another. Both engines serves their respective purposes and what I like about WME pages is that you can find on wiki pages links to other adventure engines (including AGS) for those who don't like WME. This is IMO a fair approach as it's not only you all have a freedom of choice, but this freedom is further encouraged by engine creator.

It's really sad to see this "we have it better" vs. "they have it better" behavior which belongs more to the nursery and imo violates the rules you all filled while registering to these forums. 

Someone was here complaining about the fact that WME is maybe easier to make slideshow games. It's not true at all. As someone who has been in development for years (Destinies, Ghost in the Sheet, recently coming out Tale of Hero (using AGDS by FutureGames)) to make 2 1/2d game is much more expensive then to create slideshow game. It's the only reason and if you don't believe me, ask first 3d animator you meet for his/her pricelist. For destinies we paid thousands of dollars only for the main actor and handful of basic animations. If you're to create game with no budget, you probably try to cut down development costs as much as possible. That's what we did as we were 2-men team doing the game in our spare time.

One valid point here is, that WME doesn't have enough fan made games. This is what I've pointed out many times. Lots of people seeing the possibilities of WME starts to do something BIG. It doesn't work this way and many of them just failed. It's the "big-eyes" problem. On the other hand, we already have some nice games there and it's hopefully only a matter of time to see more of them coming. 

To bring the discussion back on track though, I've started with AGS too, then moved to Torque (trying TGE, TGB, TGEA) and finally ended up on WME. It simply was the engine for me and had the features I needed. I don't need to go and shout all around AGS is bad, WME rulezz, because I am grown up and I know that you here appreciate AGS more and I don't need to be missionary converting you to WME.

Last thing I've seen in this thread though makes me sad. Sooner or later in professional development you have to learn how to code. It reminds me of certain martial art scam policy "you'll kill your enemies without need to be strong or fast". It's nonsense and even my old unfinished games with AGS already contained a lot of scripting. So WME is heavily script oriented engine, while AGS can do without that much, but at the end of the day, you'll have to script.

On closing I don't think any of the two "camps" should bash other engines without really knowing it. I for one can't comment on new AGS because last version I've used was three years ago. Lots of comments here arise from not understanding the engine well. My WME book was meant to guide you from 0 knowledge of WME to making a simple game. It's free and if even after reading those lines you feel WME is too complicated, you have right to say this aloud. Before that, it's just a claim without any proofs.

I wish all the best to Chris as he made an amazing job with his engine and I wish to you more tolerance and less bashing. Engines are not what counts for players - games are...

Edit: I stand corrected - AGS has links to other engines as well.

[space boy]

Grouphug!

[SSH]

I think that the problem that many people here have had, and what they are complaining about, is that they want the features of Wintermute's engine, but the editor from AGS... People wouldn't  have tried at all if they didn't think there was an advantage to WM, but then they found it too hard for a beginner. Now, if someone wrote a book called "Wintermute for AGS users" then they'd probably have a bestseller, and all of CJ's supposedly loyal minions would defect.

[Moresco]

I think that the problem that many people here have had, and what they are complaining about, is that they want the features of Wintermute's engine, but the editor from AGS... People wouldn't  have tried at all if they didn't think there was an advantage to WM, but then they found it too hard for a beginner. Now, if someone wrote a book called "Wintermute for AGS users" then they'd probably have a bestseller, and all of CJ's supposedly loyal minions would defect.

I think this is exactly it.  Wanting the familiar editor but the features of WME for certain things.  I'm not dissatisfied with AGS in the least, I use it and love it, but there are times when I wish something was simply easier to do.  Unfortunately so far, WME hasn't really shown me whether or not it will allow, whatever it is that I want - there are so many many things - if it will actually allow me to do those things.  I'm still learning it. 

I decided to give it try #3, and this time, it's war (ok I'm kidding about the war...it just reminded me of like a movie tag for a second).  I will not give up WME until I have made at least a single game in it.  If after I've learned it inside and out, if I still can't get used to it, then it's really not for me.  Because like Mnemonic has pointed out, there have been misunderstandings - and following the WME Book has shown me that things are easier than I originally thought.  You just need a good guide it seems, jumping in blindly assuming "this will be just like AGS!" will kill you.  :/

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think your biggest problem with WME is, that it's not AGS Smiley It's not, and it's not intended to be.

This is the line that cheapened my issues into simply something a fanboy would say.  These are sentences you need not write when discussing things maturely, Mnemonic.  Like I said, I've used many, many engines (in fact, I regularly use Game Maker for platform projects I have on the side) and appreciate people who, rather than immediately dismiss my statements as a result of either ignorance/fanbase slant, seriously consider them as reasonable.

Now:

There's a thing called design philosophy. My philosophy is to limit the users as little as possible. And I'm not going to change it just to "attract the masses".
Am I satisfied with the current tools? Of course not, and I probably never will. But my time and resources reserved for the engine/tools development are limited, so they need to be improved incrementally.

Your condescending opening statement aside, I happen to agree with you.  I also happen to be an Electronics Engineer with a pretty solid grasp on design theory and application.

You assume everyone starts their project by making a new character.

No, but what I assume is the option to be available in the very least for those of us who don't need a cluttered introductory template.  I don't know a single other engine that does not provide a blank slate as an option.  You claim it wouldn't help anyone; I challenge that claim by stating quite clearly that it would help me, especially since the template doesn't really do enough to be that helpful to begin with.

Global variables use a different keyword, because they serve a different purpose.

So you're saying Global is your approach to allowing external variables?  That's not what I took from reading the help file, but I will concede that to misunderstanding!

Firstly, I didn't ask anyone. After all those years I think I have a pretty clear idea. I just tried to correct some of the misunderstandings (and there are lots of them in this thread...). I won't bother in the future.

No, but what you did do was jump in and tell me why my views were invalid, while at the same time dismissing me as an AGS supporter -- and that is what I found insulting.  Your reply also smacks of someone completely disinterested in actually discussing what can be improved (because you have a pretty clear idea!) and that you're not really interested in what people outside of your forum have to say, or their concerns.  That's your call.  Unfortunately, I get this same vibe from reading over the many posts on your own forum. 

Am I wrong?  It's quite possible, but you have yet to convince me. 



metamorphium:


I appreciated reading your posts and views but would challenge you on a few key points as well:

It simply was the engine for me and had the features I needed. I don't need to go and shout all around AGS is bad, WME rulezz, because I am grown up and I know that you here appreciate AGS more and I don't need to be missionary converting you to WME.

On the contrary, I would be more than willing to move to another engine if I found it superior in every important way.  As I've said before, I've used many, many engines, coded my own from scratch in VC++ some years ago and even designed my own scripting language (PLATFORMED) so I am very interested in the best tool for the job.  It doesn't matter that I like CJ or am a moderator of these forums, I've never felt some kind of undue obedience to an engine.  I do, however, love and support this community -- and I hope you feel the same of wintermute's.

Last thing I've seen in this thread though makes me sad. Sooner or later in professional development you have to learn how to code. It reminds me of certain martial art scam policy "you'll kill your enemies without need to be strong or fast". It's nonsense and even my old unfinished games with AGS already contained a lot of scripting. So WME is heavily script oriented engine, while AGS can do without that much, but at the end of the day, you'll have to script.

As I mentioned above, I designed my own scripting language so coding is not an issue with me (laziness, perhaps!).  The required scripting isn't what puts me off of WME at all, personally, and I've never commented negatively about that aspect of the engine. 

On closing I don't think any of the two "camps" should bash other engines without really knowing it.

Having used WME, both an old version and one of the latest, I do not fall into this camp.  I simply find certain areas of the UI over-obfusticated and that they could benefit from streamlining.  Also, the no gif support means I am cut from the potential userbase by default, and Mnemonic's unwillingness to address it shows that he doesn't really care. 

Thanks for your reply, and I'll be on the look out for your game.

Oh, and ondorff:

I'd also like to point that png format supports 8bit colors and even custom palettes with less colors

And I'd like to point out that png doesn't support saving as a complete animation currently -- but if it did you could be sure I would use it instead!  The problem here is that when you make an animation that is in excess of 50 frames, which is more convenient from a realistic standpoint:   saving as a series of 50 png images which then have to be loaded individually back into an engine or saving one file as a gif and loading it in all at once?