Don't ask, don't tell.

[Babar]

I say that public showers should be banned.


It's a conspiracy, I tell ya! I don't want to get nekkid and have to shower in front of the (watchful or unwatchful) of several other dudes OR dudettes! WHY HAS THIS BECOME THE NORM?! BRING BACK THE OLD GYMS!


Ahm....yeah. You all can continue now.

[Andail]

I think all the talk about homophobia and discrimination misses a critical point.   In a combat situation a soldier expects that the others in his group be deeply and equally committed to each other (i.e. be willing to risk life and limb for one compatriots).   Now consider how the equality of commitment would be affected if two members of the group were lovers?   Would they not be more committed to each other than to others in the group?  

I don't know where to start. First of all, there is no way to prevent men with homosexual preferences to join the army, only to let them live out their homosexuality, openly. And gay people can suppress those feelings, just like anybody else.

Secondly, you suggest that soldiers are equally committed to each other thanks to the lack of sexual feelings. Are there rules saying you can't develop friendships in the army? Let's say that two soldiers have fought together for decades, saved each other's lives numerous times and developed a profound brotherly companionship - does this count less than if one of them slept with another person last night? Does carnal lust automatically outweigh platonic love?

Thirdly, would this way of thinking mean women can't serve in the military? Wouldn't this expose male soldiers to potential feelings of physical attraction?
This all reeks of reactionism.

[Matti]

Thanks, Andail. I was going to but too lazy to point these things out.

Also,

I think they should make the whole military illegal...

Indeed. Wouldn't that solve the problem and end the stupid discussion? 

[Calin Leafshade]

I'm with Andail

This has worked in other countries fine. There is no reason to suggest it wouldnt work in the US.

[Anian]

Well as The Daily show simply explained, dadt won't be rewoked so soon, thanks to politicians: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-22-2010/are-we-run-by-a--holes-

[InCreator]

I find that military has every right to be homophobic (or xenophobic or whatever else "intolerant" word that makes you cry).
It's a military, dammit, not some pussy hippie garage band. Don't expect pats and hugs in the people-killing business.

Military is taxed enough by being unethical, shameful beast of human civilization.
Arguing over someone's dumb feelings or taste in bed-mates would be worst hypocrisy of all.

If any attitude helps military to be strong, so be it... leave fake tolerance etc trash to civil world.
DADT seems to be a way to deal with the issue so there would be no need to deal with the issue further.
Which is how this issue should be dealt with, IMO. There's more killing to do, no time for sex life!

[Atelier]

@ InCreator

Um. Actually, the role of the military isn't just kill kill kill, like you suggest. Armies can and are used peacefully, giving aid where it is needed, home or abroad, and as a passive deterrent.

Let's look at it another way. A brain surgeon and a soldier are not unlike in many respects - both require concentration, advanced training, skill, patience, etc. Ignoring the fact one takes lives and the other saves lives, it would be unheard of to deny a gay man from becoming a surgeon. And no brain surgeon in an operation would ever be distracted because the assistant is gay.

Having a few gay people in a regiment will not put anybody's life at risk, I promise you. So what is the problem?

[InCreator]

There's no ban on gays in army, is it? Just that military has no desire to hold regiment pride rallies or other kind of handholding, like gays were more special than other soliders.
Heterosexuals don't wear "hello my name is ... and I am a heterosexual" tags on their chest, I don't see why gays would want to... or have right to...? (It's military, have some f*ckin' discipline, damnit)

And if not, what's to be so "open" about?
"Don't ask, don't tell" applies to most things about sexual preferences, I don't see why it shouldn't apply for homosexual desires. You wouldn't go around telling everyone what turns you on! Nobody wants to know about your fetishes.

Okay, it's kind of popular to add some imaginary inches to your penis by saying you're super tolerant and preaching equality and whatnot. Whatever, it's a free world, mostly. To each its own.

What I'm writing against is bringing this circus to the military. For example, an instance with capabilities to end all life on planet earth in few months (biological warfare ahoy), few soliders with hurt ego and extreme need for attention is not important. Atleast since military exists as it is today, with much more important unsolved problems it has.

[Intense Degree]

It's a military, dammit, not some pussy hippie garage band. Don't expect pats and hugs in the people-killing business.

Sorry for the useless post, but whilst I may not agree with your post, this bit made me laugh!

[Quintaros]

My understanding of "Don't ask; Don't tell." is that gays are not allowed in the US military but they will not be actively sought out. 

It isn't a terribly progressive policy to begin with since even under it gays must keep their orientation a secret.  I don't see the big difference between this and "We'll ask; you lie."  I guess it depends on how much resources the military wants to devote to flushing out closeted soldiers...

I do think the only people at risk by having openly gay soldiers in the military are the gay soliders from homophobia in the barracks, etc. 

[Snarky]

InCreator, you completely misunderstand how "don't ask, don't tell" works, and what the point of ending it is.

The rule is a bit of a fudge, but essentially the way it works is that gays are banned from serving in the military, but the military promises not to try to find out if a soldier is gay. However, if they do find out, that soldier can be (and usually is) kicked out, as has happened to more than 13,000 soldiers so far.

That means that someone who is gay has to hide any hint of homosexuality, or risk being discharged. Obviously this often means having to lie, and leading a paranoid secret life. For example, in one recent case a soldier disguised the fact that he was talking to his boyfriend on the phone by speaking in Portuguese, not realizing that another soldier nearby also understood the language. He was reported and fired.

This isn't about gay pride parades and need for attention. Straight soldiers may not walk around with "heterosexual" on their chest, but they don't have to worry about mentioning their girlfriends or wives, carrying photos of them in their wallet, posting pin-ups in their lockers or bunk beds, or getting into locker room talk about the girls they slept with on their last leave. Gay soldiers just want to be able to deal with such situations naturally and honestly, if they choose, without getting kicked out of the military.

[SinSin]

I think its a way of protecting the people who train the cadets up at the military schools (Many of the senior ranking officers tend to call privates fags for not being at their best or performing a little under standard). They see being gay as a bad thing and it probably boils down to the christianity that they swear by each and every day, most people who are sent to these camps are failing school kids (the impressionable ones) or the soft kids who need toughening up (generally the camp kids who's parents were brought up to hate the gays)   what about Bi-sexuals, Is there anything wrong with that? or is that seen as a foot in either state situation?
The U.S government has always got something to persecute whether its gay men in the army or people of another colour. Why on earth are they allowed to make up these silly laws and bills. They want everything to be squeaky clean and perfect when really out of all the governments in the world they are indeed the most corrupt.

[GarageGothic]

For those too lazy to check wikipedia, this should clarify the basics:



(I can't help wonder if outrageously camp behavior is alright, I mean they can't discharge you for lip-syncing to Barbara Streisand and Gloria Gaynor, right?)

[SinSin]

Next thing you know they will want only blonde hair and blue eyed cadets. the British army is much better anyway at least we know who's on our side gay or not