Adventure Game Studio

Hello chaps,

I know the whole issue has been raised time and time again, but...

We've recently started to publicise our upcoming AGS game, The Forgotten Element, on various adventure-related websites and for anyone who hasn't seen it, the central character is a fairly amply-endowed girl. Now, this character is not like this for arbitrary reasons but revealing too much about her would rather spoil the story.

Most people on AGS have been fairly positive which has been lovely, but never were we expecting the reactions that we've had

on this site... (http://www.adventuredevelopers.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=6=769&st=)

or here... (http://www.deirdrakiai.com/2006/02/28/and-now-a-morally-self-righteous-interlude/)

Is a character like ours really that offensive or is this the minority?

I guess what unsettled me the most was that I'd always seen indy game development as a chance for people to express themselves creatively, without any political red tape, marketing potential, USRB ratings, bosses telling you what to do, target demographics and all the other things that are quite a curse to the game industry as a whole. Even copyright issues seem to pass this type of community by more often than not.

If we were trying to profit from it, it might be slightly different. But at the end of the day we're making this because we enjoy making it, and we're making it hoping some people will enjoy it. We didn't really expect this kind of venomous reaction over something, in our mind at least, as mild as a cleavage shot, to happen within a freeware "for the community" community.

I think the main character being a nurse with ridiculously oversized teenage fantasy boobs practically bursting out of her tiny little top says more about the creators of the game than anything else, and you shouldn't be surprised that people find this kind of caracature offensive. I personally don't find it offensive, just... very silly, especially so if it's supposed to signify how attractive the main character is (unless you're using it as a satirical metaphor in your game and not for the HAWT BUSTY PLAYBOY BABE factor).

But good grief, okay she's not realistically proportioned and her top is quite revealing but...

Look at Magna Carta or Final Fantasy characters. They're much more ridiculous, and some of the costume borderline on fetish. And yet those games prove popular with male and female gamers both in Japan and the west.

And true it does say something about the person who drew it (er, that'll be me then), and I think what it says is "I'm not gay" :D

er, better just qualify that last bit before I cause another argument - I don't have a problem with people's sexual preferences. Each to their own, free country etc.

Relax, if you do a girl with a little top, some people is going to complain about that, saying you are male chauvinist, old fashioned, blah, blah...

But if you do the other side of the coin (A semi-nude man) people will start complaining ("Why don't you do a girl in spite of a man? A nude man is disgusting")<---This has been said in this forums.

So, accept it, your game is not going to like everybody. But the game looks promising, and the graphics look excelent. Go on with it.

If you're making the game because you want to make it then who cares what other people think? Stop defending the game if it's for your amusement.

That said:

The girl isn't offensive, she just seems pointless. First you say that you drew her like that because:

"Hey, if we have to draw 20 frames of walking * 4 directions, plus pushing, pulling, talking, idleing, opening things etc animations all in whatever spare time we can muster, then it's going to be a girl. Nothing wrong with that. Honest."

Which, sure, is a funny joke. But then you say that there is a reason in the story why her breasts hang from her throat in huge melon shaped orbs.

So it's a story element... This leads me to believe that there is a part of the story where she puts on a nurses outfit that is 3 sizes too small and I really see how that can be a story element in a serious game so I'm inclined to believe that the game is a paradoy or humorous. Unless she is found in a tree and the only clothes they can find ever to clothe her is a nurses outfit 3 sizes too small and then all the other clothes in the world explode.

Ah, I see, I take it from some of your comments she's supposed to be a dream woman in all ways. A dream and an idealized dream woman. If that's your story then that's your story. If you don't want to give away any parts of the story and believe that the art is justified through story then stop defending it and just say "Wait and see!"

Also, I wouldn't say that you've recieved much venom. Squinky [oldschool] wrote she didn't like it in her blog and someone on the AG forums said they didn't want to play it based on the art. He was the most venomous and he was just one person.

It's nicely drawn and I do not see it as vulgar or offensive, but I am a man and I like boobies. It's kinda boring though (at least in games), the big busted woman thing has been overused. I don't actually remeber a main character that would have been really hung or had huge balls. He could wear leopard strings too. Just a idea.
What comes to Final Fantasy and the Japanese creators (or Japanese people in general) and fetishes, you have to see that shit to believe. Why they are so popular, that is thanks to a long refinement process. Even I have played some of the Final Fantasies and enjoyed them. They have perfected the gametype like Diablo 2 (which has even less depth, but is addictive as hell). I have no idea what Magna Carter is though.

@Farlander:
You're right, mountains, molehills, etc. We did get a bit defensive, and we didn't really mean it. We'll be finishing the game regardless and hopefully people will see beyond the norks to what will hopefully be a pretty cool game.

@MrColossal:
Er, yeah. I think in our attempts to justify things we've contradicted ourselves a few times. Mostly this has been in jest. There is a sort of reason behind her look, but to be perfectly honest the real reason she looks like that is mostly down to my (and Lemmy's) personal preferences. I think the main reason that we got a bit defensive was just the fact that we got singled out, when the videogame industry is filled with stuff far more gratuitous than our picture.

@Biothlebop:
enjoy (http://www.magnacarta.co.kr/game/character_3.asp) :)

Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages, but lets face it that is not a woman, its an artists drawing. Whether her parts fit the plot or not is irrelevant. Its your art, you make her how you want her to look.

Arguments about art such as this have been going on for centuries, look at Michelangelo's David for example. Alright so he doesn't have a 12 inch schlong and was created by a man, but I think the point is still valid. People are always going to be offended by things that others wouldn't give a second thought.

Anyway, my opinion is I like it and certainly don't find it in the least vulgar.

Make your game the way you guys want to make it. As far as I'm concerned, it looks like you're doing an awesome job so far on your project, and you've been putting in a lot of time and effort in making it the way you guys want to make it. Ã,  Also, from what comments I've seen so far in regards to your game-in-production, most comments from the adventure-gaming-masses seem fairly positive, and looks many people are impressed ith your project thus far and are looking forwards to seeing your game in action (myself included).
If your game's story, puzzles, playability and other elements of the game is as good in quality of the fantastic artwork, then I think this is gonna be one awesome game that most adventure-gaming fans will very much appreciate and enjoy!

There's an old saying (it seems I mentioned to someone else recently) that goes: "You can please some of the people some of the times, but you can't please all of the people all of the times." Ã,  Heck, if ya wanna make a game featuring a gal with big-boobs or a guy with a big-dork, then go for it! Ã, ;D Ã, 
Keep up the good work.

Quote from: Dan on Wed 01/03/2006 17:43:08
Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages

Little arms? How peculiar. Still, each to their own I suppose :)

Do what you want. Who are they to make you change anything? Case closed.

Thanks for the kind words!

Thing is, we both did actually think long and hard as to whether our lead character would "give people the wrong impression about the game" but eventually wrote it off and thought "well sod it, if they play the game anyway and enjoy it on its own merits, then it won't be a problem. It's our game, and we'll have a nurse if we want to!" ;) we kind of expected some people would interpret the game the wrong way, we just didn't really think it would cause any actual offense.

You live and learn though :)

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Wed 01/03/2006 17:53:54

Quote from: Dan on Wed 01/03/2006 17:43:08
Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages

Little arms? How peculiar. Still, each to their own I suppose :)

LOL, from google:
An appendage is, in general, an external body part that projects from the body, or a natural prolongation or projection from a part of any organism, such as a vertebrate's limb

So surely her breasts COULD be classed as appendages ;D Anyway who cares :P

Quote from: Dan on Wed 01/03/2006 17:43:08
Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages

erm, I don't suppose you're comfort the thought of having small "appendages"? Eh, sorry, very bad joke and with very bad English at that :P

Anyway, I find it all just plain stupidity. The blog is vulgar. I don't see how your character should offend anyone or that you should go about thinking it would. It's the viewer that gets offended, and big boobs are everyday life at that. You see them every day. At least on tv, I don't see them irl, and not that I wanted to. And yes, as far as I know, people do get silicone in their breasts. So does this offend those who do it or those who don't? I don't get the ballyhoo about it.

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Wed 01/03/2006 17:32:26
@MrColossal:
Er, yeah. I think in our attempts to justify things we've contradicted ourselves a few times. Mostly this has been in jest. There is a sort of reason behind her look, but to be perfectly honest the real reason she looks like that is mostly down to my (and Lemmy's) personal preferences. I think the main reason that we got a bit defensive was just the fact that we got singled out, when the videogame industry is filled with stuff far more gratuitous than our picture.

If you make an ags game you're part of the community and what happens in the community doesn't have to [and shouldn't, in my opinion] be equated to the game industry as a whole.

You aren't being singled out mainly because there is no group to single you out from. Are you being singled out from all AGS games? Sure, but that's not relevant. Are you being singled out from all games that feature large breasted main characters with impossibly erect nipples? Sure, but you're the only game on that list so far as I know.

"to be perfectly honest the real reason she looks like that is mostly down to my (and Lemmy's) personal preferences."

So... If that is the final truth then do you see the point people make saying that a main character like that is hard to take seriously in the seemingly serious story you have said is being written? If there is no main plot point for 36G breasts and the reason you want her to look like that is because you want her to look like that [nothing wrong with this] then I personally feel that for me it's going to be hard for me to get into the game or take any of its plot points seriously.

Granted I haven't played the game and yes indeed there are probably super smart, intelligent and wonderful people who look just like her all over this earth that are perfectly capable of having deep emotions and interesting lives but in a game setting that is not the first impression one gets.

But anyway, now that you've got all this interest I'm sure tons of people will play your game and I'm sure I'll give it a shot. Just, for me, get your story straight on why she has tig ol' bitties and don't say people shouldn't complain [or that squinky can't blog about it] because the boobs are justified.

Big breasts, small breasts, inverted breasts, exploding breasts.

Who cares? Honestly, the victim role is so 1990's, get over it. Leisure Suit Larry had an amazing amount of boobies in it, and they were a joy to play, regardless of the gratuitous images.

If the game is good, then it's a good game with a main character with big boobies. If the game is horrid, it's a horrid game with a main character with big boobies.

Why should the "appendages" matter to the end result?

I'm a bit stupid like that in that when I first saw the image I zoomed in and checked out the pixel art, wondering why the artist didn't dither between the shades, why the line of the neck on the fabric isn't antialiased and that sort of thing. I remember thinking 'she has a pretty face, and these boobs are ridiculous' but I wasn't outraged or anything. I remember thinking the in-game sprite looked a bit worse for the huge mammaries. Personally, I'm pretty sure she'd look even more alluring dressed in something sensible and with regular boobs, but hey, if nurse outfit it has to be, 2 sizes too small, huge tits, whatever.

I'll have no problem taking the game seriously regardless of her boob size. It doesn't matter much to me. I do see a problem with such depictions of women in popular culture generally, but it's a generalized phenomenon, my opinions on the matter simply have nothing to do with a game you're making on your spare time, to indulge on your personal wants. Political Correctness I'll leave to the politically correct. I beat up women and have sex with goats.

Quote from: Helm on Wed 01/03/2006 18:19:52
I'm a bit stupid like that in that when I first saw the image I zoomed in and checked out the pixel art, wondering why the artist didn't dither between the shades, why the line of the neck on the fabric isn't antialiased and that sort of thing. I remember thinking 'she has a pretty face, and these boobs are ridiculous' but I wasn't outraged or anything.

Yeah I thought the same, except I didn't zoom in, and I didn't know WHY the boobs looked wrong (Not the shape of them as such, but the way it's been painted) but I knew it didn't look right. But I hope there is a puzzle in the game where it rains and you have to make a makeshift umbrella using some cloth and her nipples.

@MrColossal:
To clarify, ther is no particular reason why her boobs should be that exact size other than personal taste. There is a perfectly valid reason why she should be attractive, and in my efforts to draw "attractive" (to me, at least), I drew her with big boobs, so there is a "sort of" justification for them. We also wanted her to look different from the other female characters in the game. And the nurse's uniform is completely justified even though we could conceivably had made it a little larger.

I wouldn't label it "vulgar" so much as "gratuitous".  That said, gratuitous segments in movies, games or any other form of entertainment don't bother me provided there's some substance lurking beneath it all.  My preference would be to avoid having attention directed towards my game because of it, but rather people enthusiastic for the game's other merits.  I'd also prefer the challenge of conveying sexiness without it necessarily being derived from percentages of naughty bits revealed.  I do like the artwork, though, and wish you the best of luck in completing the game you want to make despite any negative opinions.

Yes Captain, that was clarified to me when I first read your thread in the GiP forum but comments like:

"Now, this character is not like this for arbitrary reasons but revealing too much about her would rather spoil the story."

Confused me, I think in order to debate this clearly [here, Squinky's blog, AG forums] you should make it known clearly.

And I love the idea that revealing too much about her would spoil things, since she's revealing a ton to me as it is! Hehe

From what you've told us about the project, it seems like it has a relatively serious story. The realistic style of the art supports this. Sure LSL boasted a bounty of busty bazungas, but the series was slapstick. Your game, on the other hand, seems moody and grave (the amnesia bit is a narative device usually employed in epic tales). Throwing in a skimpy outfit and tits (isn't nurse on the same level as cowgirl and cheerleader?) detracts from the player's suspension of disbelief.

Boobs do not offend me in any way, but they don't make sense here. If you are totally set on having them and the nurse's outfit in the game, I would suggest redrawing them so they actually look like large boobs you might see in real life, not some Japanese cartoon.

they do this in anime all the time. no matter how serious the story. in fact, do you need help with animating her?Ã,  ;D

This is just dangerous ground ...

I'm not opposed to the ammount of skin being shown.  I'm not opposed to having a sexy female character.  I am opposed to using it just to draw attention but you say that it has something to do with the story that you won't reveal (to not spoil the game) so I will refrain from any "moral" objection I might have.

I have a female lead character in my game (see sig) and she's heavily dressed.  We play down her sexuality totally.  Yet she still comes across as sexy.  There's a fine line to be towed.

I'd say the only objection I have to the skin shown is the REDICULOUS ammount of silly / childish comments I had to delete from the GiP thread (and the objectionable ones I felt forced to leave in there)

I've already addressed many of your concerns in the aforementioned areas, so...

Look on the bright side: you're getting extra publicity for your game, and I'm getting five times more comments than usual on my blog. Everybody wins!

I take it that it means you do get comments on your blog? I never get any on mine, though I do nothing for it, don't really even want comments...but yes, it seems this is a frutal subject.

On a nicer topic, the art is uber well done. I really like how you did the other close up. who is that charactor, he looks really cool. oh and a critic on the nurse. 1) the chin looks wrong, too pointy, 2) the red cross looks tilted and and pasted on the shirt sleeve, it pops out and doesn't curve to the shape of the shirt.
keep up the quality work.

Quote from: Tuomas on Wed 01/03/2006 20:12:30
I take it that it means you do get comments on your blog? I never get any on mine, though I do nothing for it, don't really even want comments...but yes, it seems this is a frutal subject.

Well, yes. I'm an attention whore. ;)

Where is your blog, anyway?

Male gamers who complain about female game characters portrayed in a sexist light are possibly the funniest creatures this fish has ever come across.

Why not complain about obscenely pumped up male characters in video games being an unrealistic depiction of average "Maleness"?                   

Why are the "Comic Relief" male characters in videogames always skinny nerds, or fatties? Why are they always obsessed by horror movies, technology and pr0n?

Why are male heroes generally Hip Hop Wannabes or Semper Fi Jarheads?

Because of one thing: Lowest Common Denominator.

The "Her tits are just there to sell the game" argument is old. Old and tired.
We KNOW thats why they're there. The company that made the game put them there. On the cover. With pointy nipples.

Prince Of Persia: Warrior Within had a lead female character wearing three straps of leather across the cheeks of her behind. She may have well have been bare-assed.
Did it help sell the game? Maybe. Or maybe the upping of beheadings and gore did. Or maybe the new "Emo" prince and his RAWK soundtrack did.

Frankly, I could give a rats ass.

Offended by female game characters? Tough.

Offended by male videogame characters? Tough.

Nobody is asking you to buy or play or watch something that offends you.

The only reason we don't run into LCD syndrome in adventure games much is that nobody buys the bloody things anymore.

Give your female characters gravity defying knockers if you want, hell have them naked if you want. Give your male characters ripped pecs, and 12 inch wangs in their pants, if the mood takes you.

Does it undermine the charcter or the game? Maybe. Can a game have such qualitys and still be regarded as "serious"? Who knows.

People seem to like the Tomb Raider games, which contain some of the most overtly misogynistic views on "Femininity".

Do I have a point? I don't know, I'm tired from all this typing.

Form your own damn opinions on the subject.

BTW, I'm playing Doom 3 at the mo. Is it just me, or are no females employed by the UAC? Are they not good enough to work on Mars?

But what about Gordon Freeman?

I don't find it offensive, but you really can't say her boobs don't say "Masturbate all over me", because they do. Lara Croft, in my eyes - was an eye opener in CG boobs, and ever since then developers have seen the appeal. It is appealing to a lot of gamers, but when you step into the AGS community (and adventure games) you realise that players prefer the people behind the image. For a serious adventure game its definitely questionable. She could be a really incredibly interesting character, but with such a suggestive outfit and such suggestive boobs it's hard to take her seriously, and it's hard - at least for me - to accept that she was drawn with anything other than "sex icon" in mind.

Still, we can't escape boobs and we certainly can't escape huge boobs and as I said at the beginning, who am I to complain controlling a busty nurse. I just won't be taking her as seriously as I might a more proportioned woman!

Gordon Freeman. I KNEW someone would bring him up!

The nerd as hero, is a lesser reccuring theme.

Of course, mOds, they do. But is that why people are offended? Because a character may bring about a sexual response from the gamer? Does a character have to be overtly sexual to do that? A lot of game journalists commented on the attractiveness of the lead female character from Beyond Good And Evil. She remained fully clothed throughout the game, but male gamers found her attractive. Should she then be labled as sexist?

I think we all do have our own opinion on the subject.

And we're talking about this particular game, why do I have to speak on nerdy characters or strong male stereotypes?

I take your rant as general and not directed at anyone then, Fish?

Okay, so maybe I'm not enough of a feminist, but I couldn't care less if a girl in a video game has torpedo boobs. It made me chuckle to see how popular their GiP thread is, and I know it's because of the girl with the large breasts and tiny, revealing nurse's shirt. But I don't feel offended, and I really could care less.

That's how I felt about Tomb Raider, too. So many people made such a fuss about the main character's breasts and I was just like "so?" If nobody had said anything, I wouldn't even have noticed. The fact that the character is a strong, intelligent (well, not when I'm playing her) person who is good at shooting dinosaurs and stealing things is all but lost in the arguments of "Oh man her boobs are big she's being OBJECTIFIED". Get past the breasts and see the character within! Making such a fuss about it objectifies women more than ignoring it.

Yes, its a general rant. I wasn't pointing fins at anyone.  :P

"Get past the breasts" is a very good point. And one that applies to both arguments.

QuoteBut is that why people are offended? Because a character may bring about a sexual response from the gamer?

Yes, I beleive so. I don't know whether it's because they personally find boobs offensive or because they're taking a more mature approach and taking into account younger players - who may not necessarily be offended themselves but they're being subjected to something slightly sinister, perhaps? I dunno... I wish I could draw tits like that.

I wouldn't say what you've drawn is vulgar, at all - like I said, boobs happen. And some are pretty big! Honk! But you're bound to offend someone. Crazy frogs cartoon penis offended a whole bunch of people but what d'you expect? You shove innuendos into mainstream but shoving nudity & nipples in there isn't going to win you much, I doubt. Sure it'll please some, but they'll probably just keep quiet about it ;)

Anyway. I'm glad your "vulgar" nature only stretched to boobs, I thought I was going to be subjected to anal sex, necrophillia or rebirth or something...that WOULD have crossed my threshold!!! :P (But probably not boyds ;))

All great artists are defined by how they draw breasts.
And to a lesser extent how the draw the female rear.

Thats...how I...j-judge great art...anyway. :-[

Chris, did you know I drew Jenna Jameson?

Yessssidid!

Then, you sir, are a great artiste.

Hehehehe :) Actually, did a hardcore AGS game ever get released? I remember wanting to cover that area originally but nowadays I'm not so interested. I'd still play a game of that nature - not because I want the simulated sex, but because I'm pretty open minded. Which AGS game features the most sex?? :P

I don't think anybody has ever done a "Hentai" style AGS game.

"Alien Rape Escape" was an existential critique on sex in videogames, rather then a tittyfest.

*cough*

And "Flashbax" has a wank scene.

But other than that...

EDIT: Oh, and Quest For Orgy had some sexual content.

what about the LSL2 mouse remake? anything like sex in THAT?

You tell me. I never played it. :-*

Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 01/03/2006 21:27:59
Male gamers who complain about female game characters portrayed in a sexist light are possibly the funniest creatures this fish has ever come across.

Why not complain about obscenely pumped up male characters in video games being an unrealistic depiction of average "Maleness"?Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã, 

Why are the "Comic Relief" male characters in videogames always skinny nerds, or fatties? Why are they always obsessed by horror movies, technology and pr0n?

Why are male heroes generally Hip Hop Wannabes or Semper Fi Jarheads?

Because of one thing: Lowest Common Denominator.

The "Her tits are just there to sell the game" argument is old. Old and tired.
We KNOW thats why they're there. The company that made the game put them there. On the cover. With pointy nipples.

Prince Of Persia: Warrior Within had a lead female character wearing three straps of leather across the cheeks of her behind. She may have well have been bare-assed.
Did it help sell the game? Maybe. Or maybe the upping of beheadings and gore did. Or maybe the new "Emo" prince and his RAWK soundtrack did.

Frankly, I could give a rats ass.

Offended by female game characters? Tough.

Offended by male videogame characters? Tough.

Nobody is asking you to buy or play or watch something that offends you.

The only reason we don't run into LCD syndrome in adventure games much is that nobody buys the bloody things anymore.

Give your female characters gravity defying knockers if you want, hell have them naked if you want. Give your male characters ripped pecs, and 12 inch wangs in their pants, if the mood takes you.

Does it undermine the charcter or the game? Maybe. Can a game have such qualitys and still be regarded as "serious"? Who knows.

People seem to like the Tomb Raider games, which contain some of the most overtly misogynistic views on "Femininity".

Do I have a point? I don't know, I'm tired from all this typing.

Form your own damn opinions on the subject.

BTW, I'm playing Doom 3 at the mo. Is it just me, or are no females employed by the UAC? Are they not good enough to work on Mars?

Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã, i think you're my new hero

 ;D

I would just like to say that though I don't think of the woman's breasts as "vulger" it is inappropriate. not in a "shame, shame!" granny wagging finger kind of way, but in a style wise kind of way, now yes, lara croft has big breasts and she's a strong charactor and ya de da, but as well lara croft is a kick butt adventure seeker. the clothes she wears, while revealing, are  semi-appropriate for her "job"  now lets take a look at this charactor. this is an adventure GAME main charactor. by the sounds of what trickles of story we are getting from the developers this game is serious in nature. while they can do whatever they want, I think that this LOOk is for this main charactor is a bit wrong. you can do whater you guys want, but I agree it is a bit hard to take this charactor seriously when she has such "features" it makes her seem a sex figure, not some one to care about what happens to them.

April, the main character in The Longest Journey, spends the first few locations running around in her underpants.

The Longest Journey.

The "This is the best Adventure Game EVER in some peoples opinion (not mine)" Longest Journey.

If you view female sexuality as "Not something I can take seriously in a character" surely this  says a lot more about how we view women, than pixellated baps do?

You're confusing the issue.

April Ryan looks like a girl. The main character of this game looks like a surgically altered big breasted porn star [well maybe not porn star, she isn't covered in makeup/semen].

Someone can run around in their underwear and not be sexual, as far as I remember she wasn't masterbating while she did this.

Calsoon ran around in his underwear in 2 games. Showing skin isn't the issue. The issue that some people have is that the character's looks don't seem appropriate to the game subject matter.

But as has been said, all we want is the game creators to have fun and make a game they want to make. I vast majority of people have no problem with that and wish them the best of luck, me included.

Appropriate in the size of her breasts, the skimpy uniform, what? I mean the vibe I'm getting from this thread is "Overtly sexual women are stupid. And not to be taken seriously. And damage what might otherwise be a good game."

And that vibe seems to be predominately coming from male ags'ers. You can see where I could become confused here.

"Someone can run around in their underwear and not be sexual, as far as I remember she wasn't masterbating while she did this."

She also wasn't wearing a string vest and granny pants. If you're saying the fact that she wasn't overtly sexualized, somehow makes her appearence in white panties and a cut off t-shirt more acceptable, or less demeaning, than surely this is a double standard.

My point: Surely dismissing a female character because she is portrayed in a sexual light is more sexist than the character herself?

Again, I'm not pointing at anyone.

Absolutely on target, Eric.

Boobs/cleavage/scanty outfits aren't inappropriate unto themselves. However, in the context of the information revealed about the game, they are. It's just something that will stand out like a cartoon character in a noir detective film.

Perhaps a lot of anime does this (not Miyuzaki!). The ones that do it most are targeted to young adolescent boys anyways. Many who aren't in that target won't take it seriously either.

If you're making this game for 13 year olds to drool over, then you've got a good start.

Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 01/03/2006 22:40:43
You're confusing the issue.

April Ryan looks like a girl. The main character of this game looks like a surgically altered big breasted porn star [well maybe not porn star, she isn't covered in makeup/semen].

Someone can run around in their underwear and not be sexual, as far as I remember she wasn't masterbating while she did this.

Calsoon ran around in his underwear in 2 games. Showing skin isn't the issue. The issue that some people have is that the character's looks don't seem appropriate to the game subject matter.

But as has been said, all we want is the game creators to have fun and make a game they want to make. I vast majority of people have no problem with that and wish them the best of luck, me included.

I agree, make whateve kind of game you want, I'll probebly even play it.this is just my own opinion.
and no Limpingfish, I don't have a problem with female sexuality. I am a champion of a womans right to be whover she wants to be. As I said, I can take lara croft seriously, and I can take april ryen seriously as a charactor. and given enough STORY and charactor development, I hope to take this one seriously as well its just that she doen't APPEAR to be a very serious charactor. The STORY looks interesting, and I hope to play this game, when its completed.
[edit]
lets hope this game has more than drool factor

Quote from: big brother on Wed 01/03/2006 22:58:07

Boobs/cleavage/scanty outfits aren't inappropriate unto themselves. However, in the context of the information revealed about the game, they are. It's just something that will stand out like a cartoon character in a noir detective film.

If you're making this game for 13 year olds to drool over, then you've got a good start.

You see, here is where I strongly disagree. In European fantasy fiction, some of which is held in high regard, a character such as this could be found in everything from the Young Adult to Adults Only sections of a comicbook store.

Have the makers of this game expressed a desire that this game should be played by all the family?

I would class this character in a PG-13 sense. In that regard I see no problems with it.

That opinion again: I see NO problem, morally or otherwise, with how that character looks.

EDIT: Presumably, lo_res_man, you don't champion the rights of sexy nurse types. :P

I wouldn't say moraly, I would say "stylisticly" (is that a real word?) what I mean is the charactor has big boobs just for the sake of big boobs. the developers admited that themselves. I dislike this not for any moral resons, but because there is no REASON for it.I don't mind sex in (or sexuality ) in games or movies, I just dislike it when it doesn't further the plot in any way. the other charactor shown has a serious sombre look about him, the other , the leading lady, doesn't seem to fit with the mood of the game. But its your game, and If you want to do it this way, fine! go ahead, I will even play it. its YOUR GAME. make some magic. but this my opinion and its as avalid as anyones and visa versa.
[edit] thats cause sexy nursy types are FICTION, how many sexy nursey types do you KNOW?
ps big brother? "who framed roger rabbit" had a ton of that. toons in noir, that is.

Quote from: m0ds on Wed 01/03/2006 22:01:00
Hehehehe :) Actually, did a hardcore AGS game ever get released? I remember wanting to cover that area originally but nowadays I'm not so interested. I'd still play a game of that nature - not because I want the simulated sex, but because I'm pretty open minded. Which AGS game features the most sex?? :P

So Kinky Island is no longer on the cards then?

:'(  ;D

Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 01/03/2006 22:57:52
Appropriate in the size of her breasts, the skimpy uniform, what? I mean the vibe I'm getting from this thread is "Overtly sexual women are stupid. And not to be taken seriously. And damage what might otherwise be a good game."

And that vibe seems to be predominately coming from male ags'ers. You can see where I could become confused here.

In case no one else made sense to you:

You have quite an awkward vibe towards this thread. One can make a game where a cartoon character has serious issues, but in my opinion this certain cartoon character seems to contrast poorly with the little bit of story we were given. I don't think anyone here was talking about if they were morally against the character. Stylistically or storywise, yes.

Oh I dunno, Eric, seems to me that quite a few people are up in arms about the character purely based on appearance.  I do agree that the serious nature of the game seems to warrant a character that has a more professional and less, well, playful air about her, but as the authors have said numerous times they intend to explain her, for lack of a better phrase, fish-out-of-water appearance.  Now you can give them a chance to do this and judge based on a finished product, or you can write an inflammatory piece based on first glance.  Personally, I prefer to pass judgement, if at all, based on a complete work, which is only fair. 

Also, lemmy and Binky: Stop reading these posts and make the game.  If you feel as strongly as you claim about your sovereign right to develop your adventure the way you want to, do so without regard or concern for the opposition.

Storywise.
Ah, yes I see. Because this is such a "serious" story, what with strange mystical girls who live in faraway forests and save everybody from the apocalypse.

Who are we to say how well she fits in? Maybe sexy nurse types are all the rage in The Forgotten Element.

And isn't the name of this thread "Would you really define this as "vulgar"?"

Everything I've posted has been on topic. Whoever introduced the storywise angle, surely they diviated off topic?

EDIT: Actually, ignore this post. I'm tired of arguing.

whats the problem with big boobs?

o/

I'm glad you're done arguing LimpingFish, it didn't seem like you were really reading anything I or other people were saying.

Progz, if your whole post was directed at me then I would like to know where I wrote something inflammatory.

And just to say this again, I'm not opposed to them doing whatever they want. I love them all the same and hope they have a kick ass time making games.

Christ on a bike, you take these things seriously, Eric.

I glad I'm done arguing too.
Arguing with you makes my head hurt.

I must make a note that your opinions hold president over mine. Its something that will save me a lot of typing in the future.

Who said I was taking things too seriously? You're the one getting bent all out of shape. Points were raised and it appeared that you ignored them and moved on to another one about how the story, because it involves mystical elements, can't be considered a serious story, which lead me to believe that you weren't really reading what people were writing.

Because I disagree with you all of the sudden I'm acting like I know more than you and your opinions aren't valid. Explain the logic please. But in PM, this is not the place.

No. I'm done.

My opinion: Storywise, or otherwise, the character seems fine.

Eric? I was wrong. You don't take things seriously. I would PM you extensive details about how I came to this conclusion, but I'm afraid you might reply, and then where would I be?

Regards,
Your friend, LimpingFish.

I just...

I know someone else has done it, but at the end of my post, I'm gonna quote LimpingFish again because it really is a beautiful piece of work he did there.

People, unrealistic breasts or no, she's a damn fine piece of ass, right? I want to congratulate you on not drawing her blonde, blue eyed and SASSY :D I like the whole straight brown hair thing (erm... no reason!) and she has a really, really cute face. Let's face it, the whole game looks insanely impressive in terms of artwork at the very least. Turn your eyes from the "scary" nipples if you must but it's really fantastic artwork!

Since we're all expressive opinions, I happen to think O.S. Squinky's blog was pretty stupid, and LimpingFish already covered why I think that. Sometimes I get sick of playing games with women who are only there to be sexual, but most of the times, it's because I feel a character is UNSUCCESSFULLY "sexy". When I see a genuinely beautiful and genuinely sexy character, she can walk around naked and fight crime with a dildo for all I care - in fact, please do. Most of the time when I get shitty at girls being sexual in games and most of the time, movies, it's because she's a kind of dowdy "sexy". Sarah plain and tall, girl next door "sexy", or just cliched sassy and loud and/or wearing a leather cat suit (Trinity from the Matrix really rubs me wrong way - boy is she not sexy at all)... that'll annoy me.

The way I see it, either have a girl in a movie playing the same function as any male character, by which I mean playing any kind of role, the ugly, the nerdy, the professional, the old woman on the park bench, the boss, the janitor, the mother, the out of work lawyer, the... you know, person... playing a -person- and not there to be the love interest just because they're the female in a group of men. Yes, be THAT sort of character in a film, OR be the sexy chick - in which case, be genuinely sexy! And OP (I can't remember your name), I likey your female character. Almost soley based on the fact that you've given her a really, truly pretty face. I hate it when people draw big boobs and expect that alone to make a woman sexy (Lara Croft comes to mind). Thankyou for remembering beauty.

And since -I'm- an attention whore, here's my (ollllld) website :D

-> http://kinoko.futariba.com

Which feature plenty of oversized (I would argue well-sized) breasts on pretty girls.

...and I am, in the future, planning on making a hentai game ^_^ (though it will have a certain twist *ahem* I won't say what).

So yeah, back to LF's well-written words.

Quote
Male gamers who complain about female game characters portrayed in a sexist light are possibly the funniest creatures this fish has ever come across.

Why not complain about obscenely pumped up male characters in video games being an unrealistic depiction of average "Maleness"? Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã, 

Why are the "Comic Relief" male characters in videogames always skinny nerds, or fatties? Why are they always obsessed by horror movies, technology and pr0n?

Why are male heroes generally Hip Hop Wannabes or Semper Fi Jarheads?

Because of one thing: Lowest Common Denominator.

The "Her tits are just there to sell the game" argument is old. Old and tired.
We KNOW thats why they're there. The company that made the game put them there. On the cover. With pointy nipples.

Prince Of Persia: Warrior Within had a lead female character wearing three straps of leather across the cheeks of her behind. She may have well have been bare-assed.
Did it help sell the game? Maybe. Or maybe the upping of beheadings and gore did. Or maybe the new "Emo" prince and his RAWK soundtrack did.

Frankly, I could give a rats ass.

Offended by female game characters? Tough.

Offended by male videogame characters? Tough.

Nobody is asking you to buy or play or watch something that offends you.

The only reason we don't run into LCD syndrome in adventure games much is that nobody buys the bloody things anymore.

Give your female characters gravity defying knockers if you want, hell have them naked if you want. Give your male characters ripped pecs, and 12 inch wangs in their pants, if the mood takes you.

Does it undermine the charcter or the game? Maybe. Can a game have such qualitys and still be regarded as "serious"? Who knows.

People seem to like the Tomb Raider games, which contain some of the most overtly misogynistic views on "Femininity".

Do I have a point? I don't know, I'm tired from all this typing.

Form your own damn opinions on the subject.

BTW, I'm playing Doom 3 at the mo. Is it just me, or are no females employed by the UAC? Are they not good enough to work on Mars?

Then we would have a dialog and clear up any misconceptions or misunderstandings there may be and fix them. But if you think I'm mean and will yell at you over PM or something then so be it.

Dear Everybody who thinks Eric hates them,

Eric doesn't hate you. But I do. Secretly I'm formulating your demises.

Love, Pesty.

P.S. I'm pretty sure when I said "get past the breasts" I meant it as "everybody shut up now about boobs".

P.P.S.
I would define everyone in this thread's faces as "vulgar".

Dear Mom,

Everything is fine. People here are really nice. Thanks for the cookies.

Your loving son,
LimpingFish.

PS. Tell dad I'll pay for the broken skylight when I get home.

Pesty, I'm gonna kick you in the nuts for that comment about my face.

(Are you a girl? Do you have nuts?)

Quote from: ProgZmax on Wed 01/03/2006 23:41:23
Now you can give them a chance to do this and judge based on a finished product, or you can write an inflammatory piece based on first glance.Ã,  Personally, I prefer to pass judgement, if at all, based on a complete work, which is only fair.

True, but I'm more criticizing the way they're advertising the game (as well as the silly drooling OMGBOOBIES responses it seems to be getting) than the game itself.

While I'm at it, perhaps I should address the following oft-repeated inquiry:

Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 01/03/2006 21:27:59
Male gamers who complain about female game characters portrayed in a sexist light are possibly the funniest creatures this fish has ever come across.

Why not complain about obscenely pumped up male characters in video games being an unrealistic depiction of average "Maleness"?Ã, 

The reason why people don't complain about pumped-up male characters in video games is because big muscles are actually useful when it comes to running, jumping, and beating up bad guys. They're not there just to look good. Big boobs, on the other hand, have no practical purpose in a video game*; if anything, they'd give the character horrible back pains and slow her down. They're obviously only there to please adolescent boys.

This may not be a problem for most people who post on these forums, but I don't like it. It supports the objectification of women, which I am completely against. Like I'm sure I've said before, you may claim that a busty woman in a video game has a strong, intelligent personality and therefore is not being objectified; however, the fact still remains that the unnaturally large tits are there, and that they don't accentuate her skills or her personality, existing only for the sake of eye candy.

* Unless, of course, it were a game about fembots whose boobs were actually guns or something cool like that.

Quote from: Kinoko on Thu 02/03/2006 00:40:48
Since we're all expressive opinions, I happen to think O.S. Squinky's blog was pretty stupid, and LimpingFish already covered why I think that.

Why exactly do you think my blog was stupid? In that post of his that you quoted, it didn't seem like he was making any kind of point at all, except that people should be able to make whatever kinds of games they want. And it's not as though I'm petitioning to have the game's production shut down or anything; I'm just complaining about the fact that I don't like what they've done.

If you're saying that I'm stupid because I don't like women being depicted as sexy (for no reason other than the audience's pleasure), well, I don't know what to say. I could easily say that you're stupid because you do like women being depicted as sexy and you're supporting your own objectification, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have good reasons for thinking the way you do, even though I may not agree with them.

Quote from: Kinoko on Thu 02/03/2006 00:52:32
Pesty, I'm gonna kick you in the nuts for that comment about my face.

(Are you a girl? Do you have nuts?)

Metaphoric ones. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't kick them, vulgarface. You might get your taint on them!

I wouldn't say I'm supporting my own objectification as much as I'm supporting the objectification of -other- women so I can enjoy it. Ã, ;D

I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said on my side of the argument though. I said I think your blog post was stupid because that's the thought that came into my mind when I read it. To clarify though, I do not think -you- are stupid, you're clearly intelligent. I think it's silly to make an issue out of things like this, for all the reasons that have already been said by various people.

Pesty: VULGARFACE?! How did you know my Gothem City super villain alter-ego?!? That does it, I'm winding my foot up Le Chuck style to kick your metaphorical nuts into your metaphorical throat.

Here I go...!

...

*Ka-blooey!!!!!*

Define "make an issue" please.

I mean, she just wrote about it on her blog and the game creators asked for feedback. As Old School Squinky said, no one is demanding the creators do anything they don't want to do [as far as I have read]. It's just people discussing things. Which is why I was so surprised by LimpingFish's comments against me.

If you think her writing about it is making an issue then fine but everything written in this thread was brought up by the game creators themselves.

I think people are getting needlessly serious and upset about something very trivial. Just either say, "Dude, that chick's hot!" or "Whoa, dude, they're gonna poke my eyes out. I don't think I can play that game, sorry" and leave it be. I think she made it an issue when she posted her blog on the thread. He never asked what people thought about large breasts in the video game industry, he just asked for the standard stuff we all ask for when we post about our games.









(Eric loves Squinky!  ;))

I could care less about boobies, i am more of a leg man myself.

Could anybody get offended by a nice pair of legs?  :)

QuoteThe reason why people don't complain about pumped-up male characters in video games is because big muscles are actually useful when it comes to running, jumping, and beating up bad guys

Actually, some pumped up heroes might be slowed down, what with their muscles wieghing so much. And fitting though regular sized doors must be a pain. I wonder if they have to have two seats on a plane? Can they find a nice shirt to hang on their grotesquely defined traps?

In real life guys that pumped up walk like they have a pole up their ass, so I doubt they'd be executing any double overhead flying kicks in a hostile martian landscape.

QuoteLike I'm sure I've said before, you may claim that a busty woman in a video game has a strong, intelligent personality and therefore is not being objectified; however, the fact still remains that the unnaturally large tits are there, and that they don't accentuate her skills or her personality, existing only for the sake of eye candy

I claim nothing of the sort. You however seem dead set against the idea that a such a character could exist.

And unnaturally large? Do they not have large breasted women anymore? Did Playtex outlaw them so they could make their bras all the one size, thus cutting their overheads?
Also, that happens to be one of the funniest reasons for not having breasts in a game. No useful purpose. And from a woman no less.

QuoteWho said I was taking things too seriously? You're the one getting bent all out of shape. Points were raised and it appeared that you ignored them and moved on to another one about how the story, because it involves mystical elements, can't be considered a serious story, which lead me to believe that you weren't really reading what people were writing

Eric, I ignored points, mmm, I wasn't reading the thread. Ah.
Yes, I can see how I would mistakenly feel that this was a personal attack. Silly me.

I just think this whole thing is silly.  I hate the "OMGBOOBIES" comments, but the whole "just-because-she-has-tits-its-objectification" philosophy bothers me even more.  It's not vulgar.  It's a pixilated drawing, for god's sake!  Sure, I can understand saying things about magazines and movies and other types of real life things that could actually objectify and destroy egos.  (I don't agree, but i understand).  But this is the world of video games!  It's a freakin' animated drawing!  Get over it, mabye you'll be happier that way.

If somebody gets horny looking at pictures of non-existant pixilated images made in MSpaint, then fine, whatever... just let them have that.  No need to crap in their cornflakes.

(I'm not sure if I'm acting like a jackass in this post, it's just that I feel very strongly when it comes down to video games on this matter...)

EDIT:  I find it kind of funny, I'm being so passionate about an issue of which my opinion is "don't take it so damn seriously"...

EDIT2: 

QuoteWho said I was taking things too seriously? You're the one getting bent all out of shape. Points were raised and it appeared that you ignored them and moved on to another one about how the story, because it involves mystical elements, can't be considered a serious story, which lead me to believe that you weren't really reading what people were writing

Damn, now i feel stupid....

Well said, Nipper my friend. Sorry, sorry, Lord Nipper ^_^

I just think people should chill out a little more. Most of the women in Leisure suit Larry aren't to my tastes at all but I love those games, and I love their ridiculous over-the-topness. Those games objectify everything! Even fruit, and vases, and sea creatures.

LimpingFish once again makes an excellent point... those overbuilt bodies men often have in films are NOT good for the kinds of stuff they do. Strongmen in circuses lift weights and horses with pretty women on them and that's about it. The acrobats are skinny men.

EDIT: And since most of the feats these kinds of men perform in video games are impossible anyway, it just doesn't matter.

Now, let's burn some embassies until the big boobs are covered and apologies are made!

The double funny thing is that there is body building and strength training.

There is a 145 pound female olympic athlete that can lift twice her own weight because she has trained her strength up. She is toned and not muscley.

Body building is building up muscles so they are large, that does not mean someone is strong. So if you punch Arnold Schwarzenegger in the tummy [back in his prime] he could possibly have doubled over and cried!

Fish: I like how you are obviously still upset and yet you refuse to want to clear the air. I'm sorry for any bad feelings my post gave you but you were becoming quite tiring and if you don't like the fact that I said it seemed like you were ignoring points then why not address them? Again, I'm sorry that you're upset. I already suggested a way to make things up between us but you refuse. That's your choice.

Fish, get on the PM and sort it out. It's silly if there's left-over animosity in such a usually friendly community like this. :)

I just figured it out! It's a quite ingenious plot actually. She is cursed with big boobs so no one takes her seriously. Throughout the game she goes on talking to people about saving the forest and grain and the world  and all that crap and the npc's are just like: HEY, BOOBS! and aren't even listening, so she has to do all the work herself. I personally think it is an excellent idea. She not only has to svae the world but fight against sexism! Also, just looked at the magna charter thing. Some of the concepts were quite cool, is that like a 2d capcom fighter thing?
Sidenote: There is also this 7 year old kid that lifts from the ground several times his own weight and beats a lot of adults at it (lifting to weight ratio). I think his parents were russian or something, however, he looks like something from rocky horror picture show.

Quote from: Kinoko on Thu 02/03/2006 02:13:15
Fish, get on the PM and sort it out. It's silly if there's left-over animosity in such a usually friendly community like this. :)

Shut up VulgarFace! (http://kafkaskoffee.com/junk/vulgarface.jpg)

No, no, that's one of my minions, VULVAFace.

Eric, its fine. Really. Truly.

I just didn't like the way you seemed to dismiss my points as misinformed, simply because you didn't agree with them.

I hold no grudge against you. I've never even met you. You just seemed dead set on ignoring where I was coming from.

Its not even like I was disagreeing strenuously with you or anything. I saw your point. I still see your point. Its not my point, tho.

But you do seem to like to try to back up your points to an insane degree. You and OS Squinky both brought the real world into this discussion. And tried to apply them to the unreal.

And I believe I responded. As did Kinoko. So then you bring another real world example into the discussion. And we could go on, and on...

Game characters only develop a deeper meaning when we attribute it to them.

So a large breasted, skimpily attired nurse is an unlikely figure. So what? Big deal?
Who said she was meant  to be representative of nurses in the real world? Who said she was to be representative of women in the real world at all?

You and OS Squinky, among others seemingly did.

In your last post you put foward a point about body building and strenght training, as if we are to collectively say "Oh yeah." Again game world/real world clash.

People who make these points about the depiction of women in popular media are usually the first to notice it, and then make a big stink so everybody else will notice it too.

You draw attention to the very thing you wish people would be better off not seeing.

I stand by my original post. I do see a double standard.

I'm all for womens rights, but a pair of tits is the least they should feel hard done by.


Edit: I still don't feel bad towards you, Eric.  :)

Edit(again): The reason why I'm not PMing you is simply that I don't see the need. There is no animosity. Also I'm sure you're wondering why I'm refering to you by your real name.
So you can call me Chris, instead of LimpingFish. Its only fair. ;D

Then please, point out where I said the breasts on the main character were vulgar or I didn't want them there because they were breasts. I don't believe I ever wrote that a woman can not have huge breasts. I wrote that from what I can tell of the story it is going for a realistic approach to a fantasy story. But, as I believe I noted before, we don't know for sure, only what the designers have told us. So I said that her breasts would take me out of the story because they are comical and unfitting to the story and the style as I see it. Where is the double standard?

"You and OS Squinky both brought the real world into this discussion. And tried to apply them to the unreal."

I can't find what you mean here. When did I bring the real world into this? And my strength training bit was about how the ideal strong man is a muscular heap when if one only body builds they aren't necessarily strong, it had nothing to do with titties in a nurse outfit.

"So then you bring another real world example into the discussion"

I can't find my first!

I never said she had to look like a real nurse or a real woman. I said April Ryan looked like a real woman [as well as they wanted, she's nor photoreal] but I was speaking on the longest journey, not this game.

"You draw attention to the very thing you wish people would be better off not seeing."

Again I never said that the boobs on that character don't belong in society. If you can find where I did write that I'm all eyes.

I honestly don't know where you're getting any of this from in regards to me, LimpingChris.

edit: and I prefer my real name when people talk to me, while I'm very colossal indeed I don't like people to bring it up because it would obviously make them feel bad.

You, as in both the beings know as MrColossal and OS Squinky.

And there you go again. Taking things personally.

You're picking apart what I'm saying and rearranging my points.

My real world point was actually more toward OSS, I apologize for that. Quotes upon quotes tend to confuse me.

Your body building thing seems to be directed at my and kinokos reply to OSS's point comparing real world physiques with why game heroes are muscular.
As was my reply to you. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted it.

I'm sorry for the confusion, but yours and OS Squinkys arguments seem almost interchangable. My fault.

As for my apparent "Hostility", its not like some huge wrong has been done to you.
Do you always badger people into reasons why they come across as aggressive towards you? :D

btw, this changes nothing of what I have said on this particular subject. Some wires got crossed, thats all.

What am I taking personally?

What did I pick apart?

What did I rearrange?

You confuse me so much. Deirdra [being inquisitive stranger] and I are 2 different people and we make quite different points most times, I had no idea you were lumping us together when you were writing and I can't possibly see how you confused us, which really lends more to my first belief that you weren't reading what people wrote carefully. If that offends you then I'm sorry, but this is what it appears to me.

"I'm sorry for the confusion, but yours and OS Squinkys arguments seem almost interchangable. My fault."

Completely disagree with you 150%

The only position that I had through this whole thing was stated in pretty much my first posts, what I wrote or what you thought I wrote that led you to believe the series of things you detail in your previous previous post, I don't know...

I also didn't dismiss any of your points, I tried to speak on them with you but you switched subjects on me to something else which was annoying, and now that you shed light on what upsets you about my posts, turns out the majority of things you are upset/hold issue with I never even wrote.

Backing up a bit:

"Game characters only develop a deeper meaning when we attribute it to them."

Game characters develop a deeper meaning when the game designer attributes it to them, not us. Something tells me that the game designers of this game have such a meaning in the story for her and thus I'm concerned that the large comical breasts will undercut it for me. My point from post 1, written for the 3rd time I think.

Eric

p.s.

"Do you always badger people into reasons why they come across as aggressive towards you?"

And I'm glad I did, since it seems the reasons you're aggressive towards me is because of some things someone else wrote. Well the reason you were originally aggressive with me was because I, in a fit of frustration at being ignored, said that I was glad you were done posting. I'm sorry for that, it wasn't very mature.

p.p.s. Please, stop telling me I'm taking things personally. Just because I don't use smileys doesn't mean I'm sitting here all stern faced, typing sternly into the keyboard to sternly defend my stern honour. When I take things personally I have someone else write for me while I dictate to them... I call them my... Sternographer...

http://kafkaskoffee.com/junk/vulgarface.jpg

This is quite possibly the most frightening thing I've seen since the whacko jacko halloween mask: http://www.alarmingproducts.com/WackoJacko.html

P.S.-  A colossal what, exactly?  Midget tongue-wrestler, one-armed figure skater?  Oh, I know...

A COLOSSAL BOOB DESPISER!

I'm not offended, but I have to agree on the point MrCollosal is making; I'm sorry but I can't take this type of character seriously.

Then again, one day the instincts of my male body probably win and I download. And I warn the game creators, every puzzle and story element in this game will annoy and feel like wasted time.

Sorry to go on a tangent here, but I feel the need to clear up some misconceptions.

QuoteThe double funny thing is that there is body building and strength training.

There is a lot of overlap between the two. Both revolve around lifting heavy weights. Bodybuilding incorporates dieting to slash body fat for increased muscle definition (theyÃ,  keep it far below 9%), while strength training focuses much less on diet (9-12% is usually the fat range for an ideal body comp).

QuoteBody building is building up muscles so they are large, that does not mean someone is strong. So if you punch Arnold Schwarzenegger in the tummy [back in his prime] he could possibly have doubled over and cried!

This is obviously bullshit. Back in the day, Arnold would rep over 400 pounds of weight on bench press - on his 12th set. The pros build muscle by working them to fatigue, usually with very heavy weight. Moving this weight around requires strength.

QuoteActually, some pumped up heroes might be slowed down, what with their muscles wieghing so much.

This too is bullshit. Look at male Olympic sprinters or American football players. They need muscle for the explosive speed.

To clarify my earlier argument. The hyper optimal stimulus seems juvenile and out of place.

Oh sorry, I need to clear up some of my earlier statements... When I ment one could punch Arnold in the tummy I ment me personally...

See, I'm 50 feet tall at the moment and when Arnold was in his prime I was still at least 10 feet taller than him even at my age... So that clears that up...

Also, I didn't say WHEN you could punch him in the stomach... If he was in the middel of his 12th rep moving 400 pounds and you just decked him in the stomach... You win...

Plus I was being EXTREMELY general as you can tell/have pointed out! So general in fact they demoted me to Colonel...

Phew, I was getting a headache from all that semantics arguing back there. Thank god we've come back to humour, albeit, humour over semantics. (Eric, you spelt "meant" without the 'a' twice... sorry, I've been marking English tests all day. God... 40 more minutes and I can go home. I wasn't kidding about that headache).

Quote from: Kinoko on Thu 02/03/2006 01:20:17
I wouldn't say I'm supporting my own objectification as much as I'm supporting the objectification of -other- women so I can enjoy it. Ã, ;D

Hee hee! Fair enough. ;)

Regarding the game world/real world point, yes, I know it's just a game, and it's not supposed to be realistic. However, games are art*, and like other art forms, are to an extent a reflection of the real world. Therefore, I do think it's quite pertinent, thank you very much.

By the way, I like how I'm being called "OS Squinky". Now I wonder whether I should be a happy open-source operating system like Linux or an evil closed-source proprietary one like Windows...

* Well, at least I think so.

Fair enough, Eric.

We wouldn't want just anyone thinking they could punch bodybuilders. :)

Congrats, this is some good promotion for your game, whether its bad or good, doesn't matter. I'd never heard of it before, and now I have

And when it comes down to it, the people that are offended, will be secretly playing the game, because they know they are just annoyed at content and are still drawn to it.

If they are offended, why bother posting, just ignore and move on to something else

I think the nurse is wearing too much personally

Quote from: Timosity on Thu 02/03/2006 06:52:28
I think the nurse is wearing too much personally

She's an nurse !? o_O

I never saw that!

Quote from: Timosity on Thu 02/03/2006 06:52:28
And when it comes down to it, the people that are offended, will be secretly playing the game, because they know they are just annoyed at content and are still drawn to it.

Well damnit, he's got me figured out!

I absolutely agree that one of the great things about homebrew adventures is that you get games made without concern for the things professionals have to worry about. And that includes things that are in bad taste, or just plain gross or offensive:

(http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images/bytheprophetstits.png)

It's probably not essential that AGS games push the envelope on mild titillation (*titter* ... *double titter* ... etc.), since the commercial media has that covered pretty well. But I don't think it's particularly something to avoid, either.

So, whether or not this design choice is offensive, vulgar, objectifies women or what have you, I support you in your effort to make a game according to your own wishes and tastes.

Of course some people are going to be offended. People are offended by the silliest things. Yeah, this woman isn't all that exceptional by the physiognomic standards of many computer games, but a lot of people are angry about Lara Croft and all the other ridiculously over-proportioned girls in video games, too.

I personally don't find the character offensive, necessarily. I can see how you could make the case, though. You've explained that the drawing represents your "perfect woman" or "dream woman." Isn't it then a bit disturbing that she's pretty much a freak, with a body almost no woman comes close to resembling (without surgical assistance)? It's like you're saying "in order to be beautiful, to be sexy, you have to look like this," but the ideal you're proposing isn't realistic, healthy, or even normal.

Of course, art is often stylized and exaggerated, so that the proportions that look best for a drawn or animated character we would find off-putting in reality (just think of all the toons with freakishly huge eyes). And I agree that she does look sexy, although in my opinion she'd look better if her breasts weren't so oversize.

The other part of it is that you chose to make the heroine a pneumatic girl in a tight-fitting nurse uniform (a pretty stereotypical erotic fantasy), and you chose to leave her blouse partly unbuttoned. You're playing up her sex-appeal in a quite unsubtle (and yes, vulgar) way. There's nothing wrong with vulgarity per se, but it obviously affect how people experience your game. You can't expect to make a bunch of fart jokes and have everyone take your story seriously.

You can certainly have sex as an element in a serious game. Even gratuitous nudity. But if it's not done with a certain sophistication, it's likely to jar people out of the serious bits. And having the main character walk around in an outfit from a porn movie is not very sophisticated.

Where do you people get the ridiculous notion that breasts this size are SO unrealistic? They may not be -common- but I've seen breasts as good as this plenty of times. I have a few pics on my HD I could pull out as evidence but take my word for it.

The dialog closeup is less extreme than the sprite, which is what I was mainly referring to. While the breasts themselves may be well within the bounds of possibility, on a girl whose figure is otherwise so slim I still think they're... let's say "highly unlikely." Excluding implants, of course.

Oh, true, I was only looking at the close-up. As you would...

EDIT: Oh yeah... once again, I get post 100 ^_^

Quote from: biothlebop on Thu 02/03/2006 02:16:20
I just figured it out! It's a quite ingenious plot actually. She is cursed with big boobs so no one takes her seriously. Throughout the game she goes on talking to people about saving the forest and grain and the world  and all that crap and the npc's are just like: HEY, BOOBS! and aren't even listening, so she has to do all the work herself. I personally think it is an excellent idea. She not only has to svae the world but fight against sexism!

;)

Well, yeah. It is vulgar. It's pure, unsubtle fan service. The intention is to titillate, more than anything else.

And you know what? Well done. Be proud of it. Just say: "Yes, we enjoy fan service, and we are using it in our game. And we love it". Sure, let there be nice plain looking girls as protagonists. Or plump. Or ninety year old women. Or big-breasted bimbos, Let there be every sort of characters you want to make. It's your world, and you should never make excuses for it.

Now, the dilemma here is: does it objectivize women? Sure. If you are living in the sixties. If you are living in the twenty-first century, all I can say is: patronize much? Hell, the dirtiest-minded more sexually obsessed people I know are girls.

Nowadays feminism has been effectively replaced by post-feminism. A school of thought that considers openly sexual characters in fiction as empowering for women (as long as they are doing the ass kicking and/or the thinking, as opposed as being tied to a railroad waiting for the dashing hero to rescue them. That would be sexist no matter what they wear.)

I'll even go further than that, and say that, from a post-feminist point of view, trying to "control" a women's (even a pixelated one) sexuality, like saying that the representation of a girl shouldn't wear a sexy nurse outfit, is pretty much chauvinistic by modern standards.

So there. Rant off.

I would say then, that I belong to the school of post-post-feminism. I like girls who are sexy and kick ass, but I also like girls who aren't afraid to be girly, or weak, or very feminine if that's who they are and that's what they want to be. I just want girls to be what they want, not just thinking they need to take one particular female role. Just be people, people :)

Wow this thread has certainly ballooned over night! Some very interesting comments, opinions and theories. Also some very entertaining posts (LimpingFish's particularly, on all counts :))

I'm glad the consensus seems to be "do it how you want", not that we had any plans of doing any different.

In the paraphrased words of Chris Morris "If anyone has downloaded the game just because of all the fuss that's been made of it, I think they should delete it... then download it again just because they like the game" ;)

At the end of the day, we posted the screenshots when we had two final screenshots to show (the forum minimum). One of them just happened to be the main character, obviously a high priority on things to draw first, who happened to be somewhat "controversial", without the context to justify it. We didn't really consider the impact it would have, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't quite pleased with the interest it has generated. :)

Thanks for all your comments!

Lemmy

This has all been most interesting (and quite amusing). I'm afraid I may have confused things a little with my rather contradictory points on why she looks like that and how much/little this has to do with the story. This is basically because we've been trying to tread a line between how much of the story to give away and how much we justify the character.

So I'd just like to post here what Lemmy posted on the AD forum because I think it makes the point I was trying to make very well...

"Fair enough. People feel that her look does not sit well in the story we've described. Truth is that the story we've described has got (quite a huge amount) of omissions. Play the demo when it comes out, if you wish, and draw your own conclusions at that point. Perhaps you will feel differently after that, maybe even percieve some irony in all of this. "

I draw your attention the the word irony. This will of course make no sense until you know the story which you won't find out until you play the game. However, there was someone who posted here who got rather close to the crux of it all...

DG to the rescue with some motherfucking common sense!!

Is it vulgar?

Answer: Who gives a shit? As if the entire world is going to pee their pants over something as banal as a big pair of cartoon titties. "oh noes, alert the internet police! we might have another nipplegate on our hands! right-wing idiot parents will ring up chris jones and abuse the shit out of him cause the picture might cause impressionable young women to dress like sluts, which can lead to rape, which can lead to ABORTIONS! HOLY CRAP SOCIETY JUST FARTED AND WE ARE ITS CASUALTIES!!! SOMEONE CALL JOHN ASHCROFT TO COVER UP THOSE DIRTY DIRTY BOOBS!!"

Anyone who thinks it's vulgar needs to take a long nap and then wake up so I can slap them asleep again. Shut up all of you.

Now to the other point that has been raised -- whether the big titties are necessary to the game or whether they're pointless.

Answer: They're pointless.

But so what?

Let me tell you a story about someone...

*swirly dream sequence*

QuoteThe son of a policeman and a nurse, Russ Meyer made amateur films in his early teens, winning prizes at 15. He spent World War II in Europe as a combat cameraman, then after the war became a professional photographer, shooting some of the earliest "Playboy" centerfolds. He made his film directorial debut with The Immoral Mr. Teas (1959), the first "nudie" (softcore sex) film to make a profit (over a million dollars), which led to a string of self-financed films that gradually became more bizarre, violent and cartoonish. In 1964 and 1965 he established his style with his "Gothic period", a quartet of black-and-white films Lorna (1964), Mudhoney (1965), Motor Psycho (1965) and Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill! (1965)) that many consider to be his best work. After the blockbusting Vixen! (1968), he was hired by 20th-Century Fox to make studio pictures. The first of these, Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (1970), was an enormous hit, but after the lukewarm reception of the uncharacteristically serious The Seven Minutes (1971), Meyer returned to the sex-and-violence films that made his name, culminating in the delirious Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens (1979). He spent the 1980s working on various autobiographies, both in film (The Breast of Russ Meyer) and print ("A Clean Breast").

- from IMDB's mini-bio

QuoteThe acknowledged pioneer of the sexploitation film began shooting home movies as a teenager, using a camera given him by his mother. He was a combat photographer stationed in Europe during World War 2, an experience he claims molded his outlook and personality. Upon returning to the States, Meyer photographed industrial films, girlie-magazine layouts, and occasionally worked on Hollywood productions, such as Guys and Dolls (1955) and Giant (1956). He directed a "nudie-cutie,"The Immoral Mr. Teas (1959), which dispensed with the usual conventions of nudist films and served up a ribald storyline and amazingly endowed women. The overwhelming success of Teas started Meyer on a prolific career in sexploitation films, with titles like Lorna (1964), Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill! (1966), Cherry, Harry and Raquel (1969), Supervixens (1974), Up! (1976), and Beneath the Valley of the Ultravixens (1979), all characterized by a frenetic editing style, a predilection for big-breasted women, and liberal doses of rough violence.

The critical and commercial success of Vixen (1968) caught the attention of 20th Century-Fox execs, who signed Meyer to direct Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (1970, his biggest success, written by Roger Ebert) and his "straightest" project, The Seven Minutes (1971, a flop adapted from an Irving Wallace novel). Meyer's experiences with Fox soured the iconoclastic filmmaker on major studios, and he resumed the independent production and distribution of his own movies. The demise of the drive-in market and the emphasis on hard-core pornography (which Meyer always eschewed) effectively ended his directorial career, though he continues to promote and sell his product on video. He appeared as himself in a spoofy sequence of Amazon Women on the Moon (1987).

-From Leonard Maltin's Russ Meyer bio on IMDB

*swirly back-to-reality sequence*

Whoa, how trippy!

Russ Meyers was a man who gratuitously filled his films with big-boobed women. He normally casted women with unusually large breasts because he says, "I love big-breasted women with wasp waists. I love them with big cleavages."

People today call him an artist (particularly his long-time friend, screenwriter and now famous movie critic Roger Ebert -- see this link (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030207/COMMENTARY/22010344/1023)) and his work has inspired cult directors like John Waters and John Landis.

Now I don't mean to suggest big boobs=art, but I do think several people several here are way too conservative about such things. Lighten up, you tards. "Oh lordy, the objectification of women for no point whatsoever! I shall have to write a stern message on the AGS Forums!" Relax, take a deep breath and realise that it's no big deal. Realise that this is just another waffling debate in a series of unending AGS General Forum tirades that ultimately mean jack shit. Speaking of which, when is rharpe going to pop up and start prattling on about how Jesus is crying over those awful enormous titties?

This is just everyone doing their verbal wank for the day. In the end, it means nothing.

But you want to know what I find vulgar? This is vulgar: it's been revealed today that the Bush administration was warned on the highly destructive capabilities of Hurricane Katrina in a series of meetings with FEMA prior to the hurricane hitting. It's in a series of videos recently obtained by the Associated Press. Bush even says in the vids, "We are fully prepared."

Then, as you all know, he did nothing and later said that no one could have predicted the damage Katrina did.

Hear that: Bush was urgently warned about the hurricane, said his administration is fully prepared, spent several days after the hurricane hit with his thumb up his arse doing diddly-squat and said, "Whoa, didn't see that comin'!"

Meanwhile, New Orleans got creamed.

That's the real vulgarity of this world. That's what people should be debating right now. Where's that thread gone?

In fact, no. I find this more vulgar: the fact that people here would rather devote 6 pages to a cartoon boobies debate instead of something that actually makes a difference.

Why, this thread is like  Janet Jackson's boobie popping out (http://www.glengreen.com/images/wv_news/2004/feb/superbowl-janet-jackson.jpg) yet again! :=

Personally, I don't care how big those boobies are. They don't cross the line of 'omg so vulgar and sexist!1' for me. I'd say have your boobies the way you want them. It is okay and won't keep me from playing the game. I'd probably not draw boobies that big for one of my games, but that's nothing you should worry about, CaptainBlinky.

Thanks for the entertaining discussion. It was fun to read.

I like how you pretend to swoop down and be the sole voice of reason in this thread DG and then tell everyone they are wasting their time because there was a hurricane a few months ago.

If your main addition to this thread is "Shut up and debate something that really matters." You have an AWFUL lot of threads you're going to have to hit up and tell people to shut up in...

Quote from: DGMacphee on Thu 02/03/2006 13:49:13
Anyone who thinks it's vulgar needs to take a long nap and then wake up so I can slap them asleep again. Shut up all of you.

Titties aren't vulgar unto themselves.

Quote
Answer: They're pointless.

But so what?

Let me tell you a story about someone...

*swirly dream sequence*

This is even more pointless.

Quote
But you want to know what I find vulgar? This is vulgar: it's been revealed today that the Bush administration was warned on the highly destructive capabilities of Hurricane Katrina in a series of meetings with FEMA prior to the hurricane hitting. It's in a series of videos recently obtained by the Associated Press. Bush even says in the vids, "We are fully prepared."

Let's not even get into state versus federal jurisdictions.
Troll.

Quote
In fact, no. I find this more vulgar: the fact that people here would rather devote 6 pages to a cartoon boobies debate instead of something that actually makes a difference.

No debate in Gen Gen can actually make a difference.

DG, that was just a cheap way to turn an unrelated conversation into a political gen-gen crapfest, one that usually ends up with me acting like an asshole, and everyone else being pissed off at each other.  So you think that people don't care enough about something that happened?  Don't hyjack a thread in order to say your little political bullcrap.  Start a new one, or better yet, tell it to people in a place where it'll actually matter.  You wrote the rules in GenGen, i should think youd atleast know the etequitte.

ALSO:

QuoteNo debate in Gen Gen can actually make a difference.

You kick ass.

Quote from: big brother on Thu 02/03/2006 15:44:09
Let's not even get into state versus federal jurisdictions.

Yes, let's not.
What has that got to do with Bush being told several times there could very well be flooding in New Orleans, then continuing his political fundraising tour and going biking in Crawford while the city was flooded, and then telling the press that no-one could have predicted the flooding?

Whee! Beautiful pillow-like clouds!

To be fair, I think all DG was trying to do was prove a point about the use of the term "vulgar". At the end of the day, English is blessed with many words, but if we use all the extreme ones up on something as rediculous as the proportions of someone's tits, then what have you got left to define seriously f**ked up shit like his example?

It's not like Gen Gen hasn't seen it's share of serious threads...the Stanley Williams execution, the Mohammed cartoons, etc.

Maybe this thread grew so fast because people are relieved it's only about boobs.

Then maybe what DG should have done is read this thread, the AG thread and OGSquinky's blog and see that only 1 person called the breasts vulgar. One person. I searched this thread and all the other ones for the word vulgar and I saw just about everyone saying "I wouldn't call them vulgar." "Gratuitous maybe, vulgar, no..."

So DG should have directed this rant to JohnPaterson on the AG forum since he's the one and only person who brought it up. You could make a case for saying that Snarky called them vulgar but only if you don't read his thread at all and just search for the word "vulgar".

Steve: The question is what has that got to do with the game "The Forgotten Element." Just because there's no need to talk about Katrina in this thread doesn't mean people are ignoring wrong doings commited by people in the response.

Never mind.

*raises hand*

I said that the way her sex appeal is presented in the game (or, more accurately, the snippets we've seen) is vulgar. As in crude, unsophisticated, unsubtle, common. "Vulgar" and "offensive" do not mean the same thing, and although Bush's exploits may be reprehensible, I wouldn't call them "vulgar," exactly. (And I don't think "vulgar" is all that extreme, either.)

As I also said, there's nothing wrong with being vulgar if that's what you're trying to do. The masturbation jokes in 'The Great Stroke-Off' were vulgar, but that doesn't mean they weren't funny. If you're trying to do something serious, though, it's risky. There's a very real danger that you'll cheapen your game, and make it difficult for players to respond to the serious parts. Sure, great artists have peppered their masterpieces with vulgar elements, from Chaucer to Shakespeare to Joyce, but they were geniuses and knew what they were doing.

If you're doing a straight-faced game that just happens to star a big-titted woman in a "sexy nurse" outfit, you should at least be aware that what you're putting in is vulgar and a cliché, and make sure that you're doing it judiciously, for reasons that are important to your design.

OR! Maybe her breasts have little hatches on them, and she opens them to contain all her inventory items!

Quote from: En garde! on Thu 02/03/2006 10:08:39
Now, the dilemma here is: does it objectivize women? Sure. If you are living in the sixties. If you are living in the twenty-first century, all I can say is: patronize much? Hell, the dirtiest-minded more sexually obsessed people I know are girls.

Nowadays feminism has been effectively replaced by post-feminism. A school of thought that considers openly sexual characters in fiction as empowering for women (as long as they are doing the ass kicking and/or the thinking, as opposed as being tied to a railroad waiting for the dashing hero to rescue them. That would be sexist no matter what they wear.)

Meh, even if men worship sexy women and treat them with utmost respect, the fact still remains that women face a lot more pressure to be beautiful than men do. Saying that feminism has now become completely irrelevant just because women are no longer forced to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and that we should be perfectly satisfied with that and only that, is asinine.

Quote from: ManicMatt on Thu 02/03/2006 18:05:58
OR! Maybe her breasts have little hatches on them, and she opens them to contain all her inventory items!

That would be awesome! But not as awesome as if they contained guns or bombs. ;)

I'm too late, spent a day having drunkenly passed out after seeing the boring Brokeback Mountain. Oh well

a point:

muscular male protagonists and sexy female protagonists appeal to the same set of impulses in the viewer. Whether their muscularity/sexiness is justified plot-wise is a secondary issue. Both the strong, able male lead and the fuckable female lead serve to involve the viewer instinctually. Power and mating, what can I say? A man that is huge with bulging muscules objectifies the traits of the alpha male (violence, authority, control, safety) just like a woman who is sexy does the same for the traits humans OF BOTH SEXES attribute to the alpha female (willingless to mate, more or less! sorry, women! Talk to Darwin!). If someone has a problem with this, they should adress it on this level: the instinctual makeover of the human being, and the social constructions which support it. Talking about how big the boobs a girl has in an adventure game is  very politically correct, and as the whole political correctness movement has ably shown, it's excellent for making surface change and ignoring the root of the issues. 

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Thu 02/03/2006 18:09:51
Meh, even if men worship sexy women and treat them with utmost respect, the fact still remains that women face a lot more pressure to be beautiful than men do.

There are a lot of men who try to live up to the images put forth by the media - but most men just don't care about what the 'ultimate' man is supposed to be. Perhaps it's caused by the pre-feminine age, yes, but it's the choice of a woman whether or not she chooses to go with the pressure, and to try and be as close to the media view on beautiful women.

Nobody's forcing women to wear high heels if they don't feel comfortable in them. The same goes for thongs, low-cut party dresses, multiple layers of make-up, spending hours in a beauty parlor or hair saloon.

They do that themselves. The biggest part of the female population seems obsessed with being the prettiest, being attractive, finding a man who lives up to their expectations, or being the woman of their expectations. The show "Sex in the City" is a good example of this.

It's a show with 4 ultimate losers. 4 women who can't find a man and stick with them. 4 women who whine, whine, whine. 4 women who spend most of the paycheck on Dior, Dolce and Gabbana, and other high and poshy brands because that's what they think is necessary to be what they want to be.

That in itself isn't a point - but here comes the point. Every girl or woman I know loves the show. They adore it. These women are the example of what they themselves want to be - independant, strong, financially sound.

But what people forget is that in the entire show is about women who aren't so independant, because all they live for is men. Men and their quirks. They are judgemental and critical to the point of obsessive compulsive disorder. They cry, they drink (a lot), they find themselves in situations they're too old for to be in, because they're just whoring for attention.

I'm of the opinion that women should choose their own path. And I let them. And a lot choose to be objectified (I made this point in the other thread as well, about porn and such), and should then not be surprised if they're objectified.

Objectifying in itself is such a lame term. What does it mean to 'objectify'? If I objectify you, Squinky, does it take away anything from your life? Does it make you feel uncomfortable to the point where you wouldn't be able to live your life the way you want to? Or would you shrug, move on and simply ignore the comments I would make in that vein. If you do anything else than the last suggestion, I think you may be looking for trouble rather than finding it.

I think this entire discussion is totally bonkers. People have preferences. Some men like big boobs. Let them look at 'em, draw 'em, publish 'em. Some men like small boobs. Let THEM look at 'em, draw 'em, publish 'em.

If the game had a small-breasted young pretty lass with a low-cut nurse's outfit, would you have complained? No, of course not, because as you said, you're only going on this holy crusade because the boobs ARE big.

Well, gotta say, get over it.

Just.. Get over it.

It's just pixels on a screen. Nobody's getting hurt.

EDIT: Wrote while Voh posted:

Inquisitive, you must recognise that the "preassure women feel for being beautiful" is being slowly trasspassed from females to males, and slowly approaching to the same level.

Now a man who takes care of his aspect is no longer seen as "girlie" (And I am not talking just about the fitness culture, which has been there for decades), but the hair-removal, the facial creams, the spas...

Not that I am against it. I do sport and shave my chest, as the greek goat can testify...

And IMO most of the aspects in live between women and men are reaching to a normal level of parity.

Which is good.

Still, IMHO a complain about an ultra sexy woman, and calling her boobs "vulgar" is an step back.

If the final goal is to reach to a point where the only differences are the ones determined by the pulses of our genitalia... Why does a woman complain of a thing that we wouldn't complain if the situation was the opposite?

If someone makes a game with a (shaped) Arnold Schwarzenegger with little underwear, we wouldn't complain. Doesn't your complain show a little bit of lack of confidence? A call for deffending something that doesn't really need that attention?

Of course there is the "We've been 10,000 years supporting the male-chauvinism, it's time to positive discriminations, to compense that!!!" thing that some old-fashioned feminists (Not refering to you) have said.

I was not there when that happened! So, I see as totally unfair to have to suffer the anger of Ã, repressed women.

And it's the freedom. When Jet put a bouncing boobs signature many people complained, including me, because it was impossible to GET AWAY of that (IMO) vulgar boobs Ã, :o. But this is (going to be) a downloadable game. If you don't like it, don't Ã, download.

To be honest, you (You, as the offended, not InquisitiveStranger specifically...) you can only "morally" call for good disclaimer before download .Of course there is the freedom of IS to complain about it in her blog as well...

Quote from: Helm on Thu 02/03/2006 18:22:47
Talking about how big the boobs a girl has in an adventure game is  very politically correct, and as the whole political correctness movement has ably shown, it's excellent for making surface change and ignoring the root of the issues. 

Exactly! Thank you!

Quote from: The Inquisitive StrangerMeh, even if men worship sexy women and treat them with utmost respect, the fact still remains that women face a lot more pressure to be beautiful than men do. Saying that feminism has now become completely irrelevant just because women are no longer forced to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and that we should be perfectly satisfied with that and only that, is asinine.

You are missing the point: feminism becomes obsolete when women and men have (at least on paper) the same rights, and women start looking for their own cultural processes. Some of those include sexual expression. Frankly, a big-breasted nurse who is active in any story is a thousand times culturally more beneficial than your average passive Disney Princess.

Creating a culture where women are forced to never cross a certain line, to dress conservatively if they want to be taken seriously andall that crap, even if it's in the name of feminism, is just another way of being repressive.

I think boobs as monstrously large as those might seem to cheapen the character, or take away from the reality of the game, if you want that woman to be a believable character.

I'd take them out (no pun intended) just because they're kind of distracting, not in an erotic or enticing sense, but a sort of, 'how does she keep from falling on her face' kind of sense.

If you're going to leave the boobs in, you could plan on throwing something into your story about how that character spent the last five years of her life raising money to pay for them.

Im glad I went to bed last night when I did.

Eric: We both went a little skewed on this thread. No harm was done, I hope, but such is the nature of conveying points and ideas through faceless text that confusion and misinterpretations can appear on both sides of an argument.

My last post was made around 2.30am last night and my brain doesn't fire on all cylinders at that hour. Had I continued, what I thought began as a fairly enjoyable debate would have most likely degenerated into a tedious back and forth between us. I'm glad it didn't.

My points on the subject still stand, as do yours and anybody else who contributed.

Sex in video games and video game stereotypes, male and female, sexual and otherwise, is an area the interests me greatly. It also infuriates me to the point of ranting.

Still, no harm, no foul.

Quote from: voh on Thu 02/03/2006 18:48:16
That in itself isn't a point - but here comes the point. Every girl or woman I know loves the show. They adore it. These women are the example of what they themselves want to be - independant, strong, financially sound.

I don't.

Quote from: voh on Thu 02/03/2006 18:48:16
Objectifying in itself is such a lame term. What does it mean to 'objectify'? If I objectify you, Squinky, does it take away anything from your life? Does it make you feel uncomfortable to the point where you wouldn't be able to live your life the way you want to? Or would you shrug, move on and simply ignore the comments I would make in that vein. If you do anything else than the last suggestion, I think you may be looking for trouble rather than finding it.

That's black-and-white thinking. Of course I would feel uncomfortable, but I'd still be able to get on with my life.

Quote from: voh on Thu 02/03/2006 18:48:16
It's just pixels on a screen. Nobody's getting hurt.

Define "getting hurt".

Quote from: Farlander on Thu 02/03/2006 18:58:23
If the final goal is to reach to a point where the only differences are the ones determined by the pulses of our genitalia... Why does a woman complain of a thing that we wouldn't complain if the situation was the opposite?

IS that the final goal? Does equality mean sameness? Or does it involve taking into account the differences between the genders, but glorifying feminine traits as equal to masculine traits, rather than seeing them as inferior?

Quote from: Farlander on Thu 02/03/2006 18:58:23
I was not there when that happened! So, I see as totally unfair to have to suffer the anger of Ã, repressed women.

You are also a man, and therefore have no idea what women today are going through. This goes for not just you, but any other man who thinks that women are being hypersensitive. (The women who think that women are being hypersensitive, on the other hand, might have more of a point...)

Now, here's a random but pertinent question for you all that maybe someone can answer: why do we generally consider naked men to be funny and naked women to be sexy? (We, of course, includes both men and women.)

Because men have been 10,000 years talking of sex without feeling of sin and women only for 30 years.

I am not saying that hypersensitive feminists are bad, don't missunderstand me, they are necessary because there is no parity at the moment. But I am saying that they are in path to extintion. The final feminist will be like Kinoko ("A woman with big tits in a videogame? who cares???")

And yeah, the final goal is to reach a parity, except in those aspects ruled by the nature, the hormones, you know? Men and women are not the same, they must behave different because they are different.

But there must be parity in every social aspect. The old fashioned-feminist who wants woman to be a copy of men, even with their defects (the burning bras feminists, remember?), is as old fashioned as the man-slave woman we can see in the "Barbie" stereotype. I perfectly agree with you.

And yes, I accept that I can't really know what a woman feels, so I might be missjudging woman's hypersensibility... But when I see "no-complain" women that Kinoko, for example, I just have to agree with her attitude.

Nice points, Farlander. I agree.

Just to clear up a common myth:

"As far as any serious scholar has been able to determine, NO EARLY FEMINIST DEMONSTRATION BURNED BRAS!"

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/mythsofwomenshistory/a/bra_burning.htm

I think the most important thing to consider is
IT'S A LOW RES ADVENTURE GAME, FOR GOD'S SAKE.

It's not like she's being turned into an object by the media... she's not even real!  Just save that femenist rage for something that actually makes a difference, mabye something that lives in a place called "the non-digital world".  Look at it as pixels & polygons, like most others do.  Even those "BOOOOBS!!" comments are mostly joking.

Inquisitive stranger,

What would you define as both men and women being equal?  Define it socially, not just politically.

Also, how do you define "getting hurt?"

In your view, what do you think women are going through today?

And who said that naked men are funny and naked women are sexy?  Isn't that a rather sweeping statement?

This whole battle of the sexes thing is something that amazes me.  I don't think you're ever going to abolish prejudice.  I say, as long as there is no LEGISLATION passed that is discriminatory against any race, gender, or religion, who cares about the occasional bigot who THINKS there should be discriminatory laws or rules. 

The same goes for media.  I used to be real upset the way men seemed to be dipicted on television, as bumbling, helpless oafs.  Yeah, that used to hurt me in a way, but then I decided to ignore it, because again, who cares if you run into the occasional bigot who thinks you're useless because of your gender? 

Example: There is a Spanish commercial.

A man is preppairing coffee, and telling a joke at the same time. He finally finihes (the joke is stupid, but the man stupidly laughs) An auto-sufficient female voice in off enters and says: "Congratulations guys! With XXXXX coffee machine you can do two things at time!"

Nobody complained.

I can't honestly think of a simillar commercial made with female characters without riots, burning embassies and killings (well... maybe not that much... but serious complains)

And that's pretty annoying, because sometimes this ultra-sensitive women start controversies that doesn't really exist! It's like when homosexuals start the "speech" as soon as they have the oportunity. Man! I don't give importance to what you do in your bedroom, why do you so?

Or when the teacher sees there are just 4 pupils in his class of 30 people and start to complain about it... man! go to the yard, chase the pupils who are not in class, and leave me alone, me and my 3 buddies are in class, ok!!!  Sorry... there's some freudian complex here... :)

well, i must have sent about a dozen application forms to help with animating the main character of forgotten elements, but it seems they are just ignoring me.

I don't really see the point of making public something driven by Private Messages.... If the project manager consider that the animation is ok, then it's ok. When someone asks for crits, he or she is not obbligated to apply the suggestions...

Mordy is joking you goof, farlander  ;D

Ok then...

 LimpingFish looks for the driver of the "Would you really define this as vulgar" wagon, and not only is the driver missing, but the horses have gone awol too! We're heading for a canyon! Oh noes!!!!

Quote from: Farlander on Thu 02/03/2006 23:50:16
I don't really see the point of making public something driven by Private Messages.... If the project manager consider that the animation is ok, then it's ok. When someone asks for crits, he or she is not obbligated to apply the suggestions...

man, thats a good idea, i should spam them with private messages. they will break sooner or later.

"The Final Feminist", eh?Ã,  ;D

Actually, I hate the word feminist. I hate that people think I'm either one, or I'm not. I don't consider myself to be anymore of a feminist than I am a masculinist (?), or an animilist or a... bug.. ist.

Quote(The women who think that women are being hypersensitive, on the other hand, might have more of a point...)

Well, that would be me so I guess I have a point.

I wrote a whole bloody big paragraph about how the world has so many different cultures and this debate really only applies to the general "western" one, and how I think some women have simply grown up experiencing more discrimination than the rest of us, or that they place more emphasis on that discrimination than the rest of us, and how I myself have of course been discriminated against but I also discriminate against men sometimes and I see men being discriminated against because of their gender, and I'm on like the 6th bloody day of my period right now and I wish it'd just fuck off.

But, I accidentally pressed CTRL + Z too many times and for some unholy reason, the whole paragraph disappeared and I can't be bothered writing it again except for that little summary up there.

My point anyway, is that I think I have a pretty good attitude to this stuff, but keep in mind that I'm a bisexual with a thing for large (but not TOO large) and shapely breasts so I'm not unbiased or without my own agenda here.

However, even regardless of that, I believe people should just chill out most of the time. If some guy is honestly being a prick about someone being a woman and discriminating against her in some way, the best thing is just to make him realise he's a dickhead and the world has moved on from that shit. I think actually bringing feminism into it will just make him think he has a justified fight on his hands. Just roll your eyes and kick him in the balls. Or ignore him.

As for big tits in video games, whoopie! You don't have to like them, you don't have to play the game, you can tell the creator you think it might make his/her game less successful but then leave it at that and go do your own thing. As we've proven, kicking up a stink about these things makes them far more popular.

As I so often find myself saying, the market will work itself out. Concern yourself with what you like or don't like, and let others make their own decisions too. Of course we can try to make others see something we see that they aren't seeing, but don't go too far with it, don't get your knickers in a knot about it, just move on.

Whoever you are OP (sorry, I forget your name again), I might play your game when it comes out. If I happen to catch the release announcement, I probably will. Unless I'm too tired that day, in which case I might not. We'll see. In any case, I think you draw good boobies.

EDIT: TIS, I like you so I'm not taking a stab at you with this, but just remember you aren't fighting the good fight for all of us. You aren't every woman, just as I'm not. Let people be people, and individuals be individuals.

I happen to dislike Sex in the City, and yet I love it at the same time. I originally loved it cause they said 'fuck', then I hated it because they were all stupid women, and now I love it again because it's just cheap entertainment and well, there's lots of sex in the show. My fiance and I would both bitch about the show and then find ourselves watching it more and more. It's not that great either, I'd never buy it on DVD or anything. I just downloaded every episode of South PArk ever  ;D There's my weekend!

QuoteI like how you pretend to swoop down and be the sole voice of reason in this thread DG and then tell everyone they are wasting their time because there was a hurricane a few months ago.

If your main addition to this thread is "Shut up and debate something that really matters." You have an AWFUL lot of threads you're going to have to hit up and tell people to shut up in...

Yeah, I'm pretending. My whole post was a cunning ruse to fool yuo all for five days.

How about this for my main addition: "This thread is a huge waste of time." Most of the other threads that I you tell me I should "hit up" don't have seven pages devoted to whether cartoon boobs are important to plot.

My response was, "Duh, of course not. But who cares?"

Maybe if you read my post properly instead of thinking, "Oh here we go, another typical DG rant. Obviously he's pretending to be the sole voice of reason. blah blah blah."

Quote

QuoteAnswer: They're pointless.

But so what?

Let me tell you a story about someone...

*swirly dream sequence*

This is even more pointless.

Why's bringing up the example of Russ Meyer pointless? It's a valid point and you've said nothing that demonstrates otherwise.

Quote

QuoteBut you want to know what I find vulgar? This is vulgar: it's been revealed today that the Bush administration was warned on the highly destructive capabilities of Hurricane Katrina in a series of meetings with FEMA prior to the hurricane hitting. It's in a series of videos recently obtained by the Associated Press. Bush even says in the vids, "We are fully prepared."

Let's not even get into state versus federal jurisdictions.
Troll.

Did I say the state was unaccountable? No, I didn't. What I'm saying is that the US has an agency for managing federal emergencies and Bush said such an agency was prepared for Katrina, despite the fact it wasn't.

And don't call me any of your mother's pet names.

QuoteNo debate in Gen Gen can actually make a difference.

It can raise some consciousness about issues. There's potential in such forums. But, hey, believe what you like about the forum.

QuoteDG, that was just a cheap way to turn an unrelated conversation into a political gen-gen crapfest, one that usually ends up with me acting like an asshole, and everyone else being pissed off at each other.  So you think that people don't care enough about something that happened?  Don't hyjack a thread in order to say your little political bullcrap.  Start a new one, or better yet, tell it to people in a place where it'll actually matter.  You wrote the rules in GenGen, i should think youd atleast know the etequitte.

I'm not hijacking a thread. I'm using that as an example of something else you could be talking about.

But according to you, it's political bullcrap. Debate the boobies for all I care. Let's not turn this into a political crapfest. Let's leave it at a regular crapfest.

QuoteIt's not like Gen Gen hasn't seen it's share of serious threads...the Stanley Williams execution, the Mohammed cartoons, etc.

And that's the thing: I'm proud of people debating that. But when it gets to stuff like this thread, it makes me ill. I think to myself, "Do people actually spend their time debating stuff like this? Seriously."

QuoteMaybe this thread grew so fast because people are relieved it's only about boobs.

Could be.

QuoteThen maybe what DG should have done is read this thread,

Did that...

Quotethe AG thread

and that...

Quoteand OGSquinky's blog

and that too!

Quoteand see that only 1 person called the breasts vulgar. One person. I searched this thread and all the other ones for the word vulgar and I saw just about everyone saying "I wouldn't call them vulgar." "Gratuitous maybe, vulgar, no..."

I noticed. I also noticed that the topic of this thread was "Would you really define this as 'vulgar'". Hey! That's the first thing I wrote about. HOLY SMOKES!

QuoteSo DG should have directed this rant to JohnPaterson on the AG forum since he's the one and only person who brought it up. You could make a case for saying that Snarky called them vulgar but only if you don't read his thread at all and just search for the word "vulgar".

The rant wasn't only directed at JohnPaterson but anyone else who shares his view. It was on-topic ( and sure I came in late, but six pages in two days!) and no one has said anything to disprove what I've said other than "dg you have a potty mouth and to talk too much about political bullcrap. stfu you crabby old man!"

But if you read my second part, which was more about the later point that was brought up in this thread (i.e. are gratuitous boobies necessary), you'll see from an example I've given that my point of view still remains: "They're unnecessary, but so what? It's no big deal!"

Okay. Let me get this straight. A female character cannot be believable if she has big breasts. That makes no sense. Girls with big breasts exist just as much as average-chested or flat-chested women do. I see nothing wrong with having an ample-bosomed female lead in an adventure game.

Those people on those forums really need to chill and stop being high-and-mighty about boobs.

Seriously.

Quote from: TerranRich on Fri 03/03/2006 01:03:28
Okay. Let me get this straight. A female character cannot be believable if she has big breasts. That makes no sense.

Which, if we go back in time along this thread, was basically what I said.

What's with the discrimination against girls with large breasts. Are they a lesser form of woman? Did they have to trade-in their brains for their chests?

Is it "Womens Rights (but only for the right women)"?

QuoteDid they have to trade-in their brains for their chests?

Shall we start with Katie Price and work our way down the list? :P

No, she never had brains to begin with.  :P

Is it "Womens Rights (but only for the right women)"?

Quote

I think it's womens rights for those who want to push the issue. Ã, I think some women are actually looking for something to scream "DISCRIMINATION" about.
But that just doesn't have the zest that it used to. Ã, Women have all the political rights that men have. Ã, If they're being discriminated against, in the workplace for instance, they can pick up the phone and get an attorney. Ã, 

I say that it's not discrimination if you're getting paid less than a man for the same job, it's discrimination if you're getting paid less and there's no laws protecting you. Ã, That's real discrimination.

I agree that certain women (not pointing fingers at anybody) are only making the issue worse by ranting on and on. Ã, In a sense, it's like they think they have to compete with men to PROVE their equality, and they don't really care how much trouble they have to stir up to do it. Ã, But all that EVER accomplishes is drawing lines and creating divisions which DOES create rifts.

Quote from: Raggit on Thu 02/03/2006 23:26:16
(blah blah blah)

I'll answer your questions after you answer mine. And as for sweeping statements, I did say "generally". I'm very well aware that such a statement does not apply to everyone; however, that does not negate the fact that such a generality does exist, and that I wish to explore such a generality.

Quote from: Kinoko on Fri 03/03/2006 00:29:38

Quote(The women who think that women are being hypersensitive, on the other hand, might have more of a point...)

Well, that would be me so I guess I have a point.

MORE of a point, dear. MORE of a point.

Quote from: Kinoko on Fri 03/03/2006 00:29:38
My point anyway, is that I think I have a pretty good attitude to this stuff, but keep in mind that I'm a bisexual with a thing for large (but not TOO large) and shapely breasts so I'm not unbiased or without my own agenda here.

Well, there you go. I don't have a thing for breasts; in fact, I often feel that my own are an inconvenience to me. Hence, I can't possibly understand why people like them so much. Acknowledge that they do, yes, but not understand.

Quote from: Kinoko on Fri 03/03/2006 00:29:38
(blah blah blah)

EDIT: TIS, I like you so I'm not taking a stab at you with this, but just remember you aren't fighting the good fight for all of us. You aren't every woman, just as I'm not. Let people be people, and individuals be individuals.

Oh, I know that. I know that not all women think the same way just because we're women. I'm not even "fighting the good fight" anywhere on this forum or on the particular blog entry that I posted. I know all about how complaining about titties in an amateur adventure game and being all "BLAH BLAH BLAH OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN" about it is going to do absolutely nothing to help the status of women in games (and women as a whole). I know that there are better ways to direct my efforts, and I do so (supporting the encouragement of women to play and make more games being one such effort). If anyone actually bothered to read my blog post, you would already know that I am well aware that there are worse displays of blatant sexuality in the media, and that I was only focusing on this particular game because, well, it's an amateur adventure game, which I tend to care more about than other genres because I make them. (Besides, blogs like Game Girl Advance and Athena's Legacy already complain about gender issues in the more mainstream sorts of games as it is.) I also know that I have no right to stop people from making the kinds of games that they want, and that by complaining about the game, I'll probably contribute to making it infamously popular. I know that if I don't like what the game represents, then I shouldn't be playing it, end of story. (Admittedly, though, after all this hype, I might just end up downloading the demo just to see what all the fuss was about.)

The thing is, in case you haven't already noticed, I love to complain. It makes for fun discussions that probably wouldn't even come up if everyone just happily agreed to not complain about anything. And in these discussions, people, though not necessarily changing each other's minds, become motivated to think and communicate more clearly about their own opinions. Honestly, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Anyway, now that that's all cleared up...

...you like me, do you? That's so sweet. It's not just because of my huge boobs, is it?

Quote(Admittedly, though, after all this hype, I might just end up downloading the demo just to see what all the fuss was about.)

Hype and fuss, that you, among others, actually gave birth to.

There was no fuss until somebody decided to we needed one.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Yes.

Good.

Yes I like you ^_^ I have no idea what your boobs are like so it's not because of that. I like that you stand up for what you believe in, even if it's not what I agree with. I also like arguing, though I try to do it less than I did when I was a young whippersnapper when I really did start debates on anything, all the time, just for the sake of them. I also agree that these threads are not entirely without point because it does force people to think more deeply about the core of what they believe in, and to question themselves.

DG is right in that there are more important things we could be discussing, and that there should have been no fuss in the first place, but it happened, and I think we're all a little wiser and more open minded for it.

Now go and contribute to my 'things you do when you're bored' thread! Also, I want the last say so can we lock this now? :D

No we cannot lock this now. There's still pertinent discussion to be had about pie in this thread.

There is no discussion about pie. Everyone loves it and that's that.

pie is george w bush's way of keeping the working man down blah blah blah and other political bullcrap

p.s. voice of reason, and the pretending to be of which.

I knew a man once.

A man with pie.



He always had a nice big smile.

Pie Jesu?

Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 03/03/2006 00:58:10
How about this for my main addition: "This thread is a huge waste of time." Most of the other threads that I you tell me I should "hit up" don't have seven pages devoted to whether cartoon boobs are important to plot.

That's one of the few things you stated that I disagree with.  When judging whether the general discussion topics are a waste of time, you target this thread while there are a good many below it that seem more a waste of time.  Eventually, these things all die off, but your comments exacerbate the debate rather than allow it to come to a creeping non-conclusion. 

As far as being proud of having higher-minded discussion, note that this thread initially focused on a particular set of pointy boobies and whether or not they were vulgar.  It later changed into a discussion about current social views, masculine identity, feminism and stereotypes.  Being one of the only issues discussed that will probably affect every person visiting the thread, it seems less a waste of time (by comparison) than discussing natural disasters or political situations that won't likely affect the participants.  That's not to say that the only issues that matter are those we're able to selfishly care about, but rather to challenge the idea that debates wherein all participants are third-party to the issue have automatically higher merit.

As far as feminism and sexual identity go, I don't believe that androgynous representation or its counterpart in the overtly sexual "liberated" female are the ideal goal.  Somewhere in the middle seems the likely compromise of female socio-evolution; a phase when women and men find their identity in themselves rather than based upon stereotypes common to half of the population.

I'm in general disagreement with both those who embrace the iconification of female attributes as well as those who attack it.  In female-driven cultures of past millennia, artisans of both genders exaggerated similar attributes in an attempt to exemplify the matronly aspects of the female form. 

While it's true that many men agree upon the desire for a top-heavy partner, females are still caging their own gender within the confines of their pre-determined ideals.  Aside from basic shapes and general hygiene, most men don't give a shit about the majority of preening and primping activities that females occupy themselves with.  Men often make idiotic statements about the other gender, but it's at least from an easily understandable source of motivation.  The most venomous and, likewise, most elaborate praise I've heard directed towards females has been from other females.  The idea that men determine stereotypical beauty is not only misguided, but counter-productive to the "progress" that women seem to strive for.

My girlfriend has implants.  Large chests aren't my thing, but thankfully they seem proportionate to her form.  I've got no qualms about her having had this modification: She says that previously she didn't feel feminine, and felt inadequate when comparing herself to other females.  She also says that because of them, she gets a lot more compliments as well as many more insults - primarily from other females.  Not knowing her at the time, but having seen pictures, I thought she was perfectly feminine and attractive without, but if this supports her self-esteem and gives her a more female self-image - I'm all for it.  She's also got a lot of "old-fashioned" ideals when it comes to male-female relationships, but ultimately portrays herself and weighs in with her viewpoints from her own perspective rather than one pre-determined by her classification within the female gender (something unfortunately uncommon among females I've befriended).

I guess I've got no real point, except that females too often forget that without their having taught us, men would have no bloody idea what X-Y-Z measurements were ideal. 

Exactly, the issue would be why your girlfriend felt the need to have implants. That motivation is so very difficult to examine thoroughly and -this is where it gets sticky- by examining it, by bringing all the aspects of societal programming to the fore one risks to damage critical aspects of one's personality as they partain to sexual identity. Is it worth the bother? Would a thorough examination of your girlfriend's sexual hang-ups and self-esteem really stand to help her become more 'liberated' or whatnot? Or would they implant (sorry) further guilt into mental procedures that could really do without? These things have a precious balance all of their own, and whereas I won't be the one to say that sexuality shouldn't be discussed and that we shouldn't be especially critical of the social ramifications of it all, in the end we ourselves are products of our environment and if somebody has come to find abnormally large boobs attractive, then that's what they find attractive!

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Fri 03/03/2006 01:28:06

Quote from: Raggit on Thu 02/03/2006 23:26:16
(blah blah blah)

I don't think that's really neccessary.

Anyway, to answer your questions...

I repeat myself, but, MY definition of getting hurt:Ã,  As I said before, it's no big deal to me until REAL discrimination arises.Ã,  If somebody thinks I'm garbage because my reproductive organs are external, THEIR the one who has the problem not me.Ã,  That's just their perspective.Ã,  However, when I'm told I can't get a job, or some other such variation, because of my gender, THAT'S a real problem.

The final goal of equality is unreachable.Ã,  It will never happen, worldwide, or even across one nation, or even a state.Ã,  Equality cannot exist in a world full of INDIVIDUALS.Ã,  In a world of billions of people, with billions of opinions, billions of philosophies, and billions of problems, we'll never see it all eye to eye.Ã,  At this point in time, equality is more of a state of mind than it is anything tangible.Ã,  The tangible part is already acheived.Ã, 
But that doesn't matter, we don't have to see it eye to eye.Ã,  As long as there is political justice, the ball is in your court.Ã,  You are an equal, you have to act like one.Ã,  So if you're so equal, quit talking about how wonderful your feminine traits are, because they're no better than my masculine traits.Ã,  We're entirely different, but we're still equals.Ã,  So lets drop it, if we're really equal.Ã, 

What are women going through today?Ã,  Nothing more than anybody else is having to go through.Ã, 

Inquisitive Traveler, (and everybody else while I'm at it,) I accept you rightly as my equal.Ã,  We both have equal potential and equal value.Ã,  I could never disregard another human just because of some unimportant difference like gender or race or whatever.Ã,  I accept you, no matter what.Ã,  You owe me the same, or else you are the one denying our equality.

Quote from: TheYak on Fri 03/03/2006 02:25:11

Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 03/03/2006 00:58:10
How about this for my main addition: "This thread is a huge waste of time." Most of the other threads that I you tell me I should "hit up" don't have seven pages devoted to whether cartoon boobs are important to plot.

That's one of the few things you stated that I disagree with.  When judging whether the general discussion topics are a waste of time, you target this thread while there are a good many below it that seem more a waste of time.  Eventually, these things all die off, but your comments exacerbate the debate rather than allow it to come to a creeping non-conclusion.

Yeah, but the difference is the discussion was up to six pages in two days when I posted! There aren't any other threads with that kind of jump in responses in such a short time.

And now it's up to eight! Also, most of the replies between pages 6-8 have nothing to do with my comments, so I don't think it's fair to say my comments have exacerbated the debate. I think it would have continued down the same wonky path whether or not I added my pretending-to-be-the-voice-of-reason rant.

My issue is how eager people are to hop on this thread in such a short amount of time. I was very happy to see people contribute to other long threads, like the Mohommad cartoons thread (one I didn't reply to because I had nothing much to contribute, my views were already discussed in detail by others. Also, I read that thread late, like this one.) or even something simple like the birthday thread. Not so much the Paul Harvey thread because arguing with rharpe was like trying to crack a coconut with your skull. And you'll notice I was trying to steer people away from the Paul Harvey thread too.

I don't think you need to have an issue with it though. It makes perfect sense that this thread has been so popular.

1) It's about a subject -everyone- has an opinion on. It's relevant to everyone.

2) It's indirectly about adventure games, and that's why we're all here.

3) A lot of the posts are by the same people getting into heated arguments. the thing with arguments like these is that the same 3 or 4 people fight with each other over misquotations and desperate attempts to have their points understood. Then, you have little posts here and there with people wanting to step in and clear things up. That leads to further misquotations as people start to generalise about the tone of the thread or because they put everyone into side A or B and this makes people who don't fully agree with people on their own "side" angry and they want to clarify their positions.

Quote from: TerranRich on Fri 03/03/2006 01:03:28
Okay. Let me get this straight. A female character cannot be believable if she has big breasts. That makes no sense. Girls with big breasts exist just as much as average-chested or flat-chested women do. I see nothing wrong with having an ample-bosomed female lead in an adventure game.

Those people on those forums really need to chill and stop being high-and-mighty about boobs.

Seriously.

Terran, let's say you were playing GTA3 and the main character was a 5 year old baby. You're running around shooting people and hijacking cars and dealing with the mob as a 5 year old. Do you think that the fact that the character is 5 years old would distract from the story to the point that it becomes something different?

This is the point of saying that a comically large breasted woman in a comically small nurses outfit being put in to what is described as a serious story will, in my and others opinion, distract and detract. The people who say that she may distract from the story aren't being high and mighty.

The creators of the game said that they wanted something fun to animate while she walked around and did stuff [bouncing breasts]. Let's say that they thought making her poop out of her butt while she walked would be fun to animate, do you think that would distract from a serious story?

"People don't walk around pooping all the time! There are big breasted women in real life!" and people don't get birthed from trees, yes. I'm not talking about real life, I'm talking about when telling a story one needs to take all elements into account or it may just fall flat on its face*.

Eric

*Luckily if she did fall over she'd be cushioned.

DG: Very good, this is a big pointless thread, then why did you post in it? Does the thread have a point now? Or are you now wasting your time when you should be starting threads about homeless people or something important.

Can't say much that hasn't already been said. Pretty much in agreement with Mr. Colossal.

It's fair enough that she has ridiculously ginormous breasts. It's maybe not an accurate cross-section of the female population but I'm sure there are plenty of women in the world with chests of a comparable size and I'm quite certain it has nothing to do with intelligence or ability.

Can you really get on board with an adventure game heroine (who by definition needs to be smart and aware of her environment) when she thinks it's a good idea to walk around a grey and overcast island in a microskirt and chest-handkerchief though? What nurses do you know? Christ, I'd be in A+E every second day of that was common NHS attire.

From what I've seen so far, she is completely at odds with almost everything else in the gameworld, like an airbrushed, versacci'd model catwalking through a scummy crack-house. That's going to present a big problem with player/character identification.

Good.

Pie.

Just add into the story that insane doctors operated on her and gave her implants. Or something. Then all of this will go away...



:=

QuoteWell, there you go. I don't have a thing for breasts; in fact, I often feel that my own are an inconvenience to me. Hence, I can't possibly understand why people like them so much. Acknowledge that they do, yes, but not understand.

I'm sorry you don't like your breasts, FemmeSquinky, and also that you don't understand why men find them to be quite nice.  Perhaps I can elucidate...Perhaps not, but let's have a stab, shall we?

Alright, imagine a nice, fluffy pillow...Now, depending on allergies and such, your favorite pillow might be a cotton pillow, an air pillow, or one of those fancy space-age spongy pillows that you can deform and will return to normal shape eventually.  Well, boobs to men are kind of like your favorite pillow; they're soft, comforting, and when you want to relax they're always there for you.  I could draw other strange parallels here, but the crux of my explanation is this:  boobs are soft and nice, and well gosh, men just like that sort of thing!  Of course, I could be crazy.  In fact, someone on irc today told me I was, but I will not sway on this boob issue; instead, I will end with a relevant Haiku.

Haikus about boobs,
comfort me like soft pillows,
Vulgar?  Hell no, n00bs!

Quote from: Kinoko on Fri 03/03/2006 03:56:33
1) It's about a subject -everyone- has an opinion on. It's relevant to everyone.

Actually, I don't have much of an opinion on it.  Which is why I haven't posted in this thread.  And I never will!  Wait...dang.

Quote from: Raggit on Fri 03/03/2006 03:25:15
So if you're so equal, quit talking about how wonderful your feminine traits are, because they're no better than my masculine traits.Ã,  We're entirely different, but we're still equals.Ã,  So lets drop it, if we're really equal.Ã, 

I never said anything about women being superior to men... now did I?

Quote from: Raggit on Fri 03/03/2006 03:25:15
What are women going through today?Ã,  Nothing more than anybody else is having to go through.

Well, you may be right. I don't know; I have no idea what it's like to be a man. The fact of the matter is, women as a group ARE still experiencing a lot of problems that men couldn't even imagine. And so are many other minority groups. Hell, even rich white heterosexual men have their share of problems, I'm sure.

I just don't think we should neglect the problems that women face just because everyone else has problems too. Ã, I'm not saying that women's problems are more important to solve than everyone else's, though; we should try our best to find solutions to all problems.

On to your questions, then...

My views on equality are similar to yours - we do all have equal potential and equal value. We also have different insights and different personal experiences, which should be embraced.

My views on getting hurt, well, it sure is easier to describe hurt if it's tangible. When people ask "How are you being discriminated against?" they are more satisfied with an answer like "I am being paid less than men of equal station to mine at work." rather than "I often get flirtatious comments from my co-workers, and they make me feel uncomfortable." Also, it's easier to define getting hurt when you know that a specific person or group of people is deliberately causing you harm. In cases where people don't intend to hurt you (i.e. a man hitting on an attractive woman at work) and yet you don't appreciate their behaviour, it's a lot less clear-cut. If the woman complains, then the man protests "But I didn't do anything!" and accuses society of reverse discrimination. If the woman keeps her mouth shut, she'll continue to feel like a sex object in the workplace (which, in most cases, is inappropriate).

Many people here (and on the Muhammad Cartoons thread too, I noticed) have a very "if someone says something you don't like, you should ignore them, otherwise you're an overly-sensitive insecure idiot and it's your own fault, so tough luck" mentality. In the case that you have an otherwise happy life surrounded by caring friends and family and the insult is just a one-time thing, then yes, such thinking is justified. If, however, a person is given the same insults over and over again by many people, then sooner or later, without anyone to refute them, they start to believe it. They start to feel worthless and horrible about themselves, and it's not because they're stupid; it's because no evidence proves the contrary.

The problems that women face, hmm... Like I said, pressure to be sexy. I agree to an extent with Kinoko in that women should have the right to be as sexy as they want to be; however, what a person wants is often defined by what they have been raised by their environment to want. I feel like a freak for not caring much about my body and being sexy, because practically every other woman I know does. It's not that I have a negative body image or anything; it's that I don't understand why the concept of body image has to be so important in the first place. Quite frankly, it has no use in my eyes.

Men have issues with their bodies too, yes, but there is also a significantly greater percentage of men who don't care about looking sexy and are seen as socially-acceptable than women who feel the same. Why is it that in movies, when an ugly geek guy falls in love with a hot girl, he gets to remain ugly and geeky, whereas when the ugly geek girl falls in love with the hot guy, she has to get a makeover before anyone notices her? Why is it that Napoleon Dynamite can dance like a complete dork while girls who dance have to be graceful in doing so? Why is there not a Leisure Suit Larry-esque game with gender role reversal, where the woman picks up the hot guys? (Actually, wait... there was that text adventure LSL parody I made on my calculator back in high school, which starred a bunch of friends of mine. Never mind.) And the question I asked before: why are naked men generally seen as funny, while naked women are generally seen as OMGSEXY?

Also, let's not forget how women are constantly getting pressured to find a husband/boyfriend, whereas men are often praised for being bachelors.

There's so much more I could say, but I'm getting tired, and I think I'm rambling. I hope I'm making at least an inkling of sense, though.

(http://www.simpsonschannel.com/screenshots/shot184.gif)

WOW Sexy!

Now, I was trying to stay out of this trhead, by only posting silly little posts, but I can't take it anymore...

So sily, so, so, so sily.

I can only think of one reason why someone would have a problem with these lovely breasts (I'm talking about the nurse and not Marge). Envy!

Sorry!

Now, wait just one minute there, Inquisitive Stranger! Napoleon Dynamite is a fantastic dancer! >:( ;D

While we're on dorks in movies, I've often found the nerdy girls attractive before they get a makeover.

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Fri 03/03/2006 06:56:01
Many people here (and on the Muhammad Cartoons thread too, I noticed) have a very "if someone says something you don't like, you should ignore them, otherwise you're an overly-sensitive insecure idiot and it's your own fault, so tough luck" mentality.

It's easy to make someone else's mentality sound bad when you summarize it into a concise little quote like that. But generally people's mentalities are slightly more complicated. When it comes to the Muhammad cartoons, people did overreact. At least, they certainly took their anger out in the wrong ways. But yes, I think you're right about those insults being repeated a lot. When you hear something too much, it's easy to start believing it, and ignoring it won't always work.

Let's all just agree he should redraw the character with smaller breasts

Spoiler

and make her topless.

[close]

It's quite interesting that some people try make this a non-topic. As if it was all about discriminating large-breasted women for no reason at all. Grow up.

Every topic of a debate can after a while be accused of being blown out of proportion, but some debates still have a very important nucleus.

Young girls (and boys also, naturally) cut themselves with razors because they don't fit in the perfect image. They purchase fake body parts to fit in. They get depressed for years and kill themselves.
Stupid people design the perfect image, frustrated, immature, superficial people define what the perfect image is like, and they spread it everywhere.
Do you think that small things don't matter? Well, every little image, symbol, icon, road sign, avatar, they all matter. They all build up to a culture.

This is not about personal preferences. I bet the artists behind the 3D-models of wasp-waisted, balloon-breasted semi-nude creatures referred to as females have hardly been in the same room as a topless woman.
It's not about my personal preferences; they change according to my last encounter. I've been with large-breasted women and preferred that for some time, and I've been with completely flat women and found that kind of sexy in its own way.

The day people in games, magazines and movies resemble real people, I'll rest my case.

I'm much more concerned that pop bands such as the Spice Girls market a so-called aspirational look of sex appeal and gratuity to young girls of 7 to 13 years old. How many times have you seen children dressed is "adult" clothing? This is an appalling state of society. At the end of the day, our character is not representative of the real world. She is drawn in pixels, in a non-realistic style, and lives in a fantasy environment in a game that will be played by a reletively small number of people who are mainly (although hopefully not exclusively) male.

As for the humourous responses offering help with the sprite... :) Thanks and all, but I'm afraid she's mostly finished now.

Andail - So what, you want all images of people to be realistic?

QuoteYoung girls (and boys also, naturally) cut themselves with razors because they don't fit in the perfect image. They purchase fake body parts to fit in. They get depressed for years and kill themselves.

And if we abolish unrealistic images in the media, do you think that will change? People will always like some people more than others. Even if physical beauty is no longer a concern, maybe we'll start desiring the people with the cleanest teeth. But some people will always have cleaner teeth than others. Or what if we start desiring people with the best minds? Some people will always have better minds than others. Will girls be cutting themselves because they can't make themselves as smart as that other girl over there that the guys like?

These 'unrealistic' images are there because people like certain traits in others. A lot of people happen to like big breasts, for example (off the top of my head), so it's only natural people start exagerrating these traits in cartoon and whatnot. It happens with any kind of trait that stands out, even hated ones. Take politicians or caricatures as an example. It's been happening as soon as man was able to pick up a stick and draw a picture in the dirt.

If your problem isn't with people drawing girls with exagerated appendages, and is instead with "unrealisticly beautiful" people in the media, then are you saying we need some kind of quota to make sure beautiful people are kept in check with a good number of dowdy people?

If not either of these, please explain to me what you think ought to happen.

Quote
Stupid people design the perfect image, frustrated, immature, superficial people define what the perfect image is like, and they spread it everywhere.

So you've never had a discussion with your mates about whether a blonde, brunette or red head is better? If some guy told you he liked red heads best, do you think that would stop him falling in love with an amazing brunette he met?

I have about 50 "perfect images" of people in my head, and I redefine them all the time, but I do like to have a crack at defining them. I find that it's one of the joys of drawing, is being able to produce what I think is a really beautiful girl. It doesn't -mean- anything, and it doesn't make one lick of difference to who I find attractive in real life.

If I'm stupid, frustrated and immature, then so be it, but I'd rather be that than so insecure with my life that I was afraid to objectify people, enjoy sexuality, enjoy idealisation and enjoy light-hearted jokes and discussions without thinking the world was gonna end.

EDIT: I'm not saying you are those things, Andail. But I reckon some people are.

Ok well I'm pretty much just a lurker here and I'm sure I'll draw some wrath for this. But I have noticed something about Andail: many of his posts tend to end with him boasting, in a thinly veiled manner, about his past sexual conquests. I also love the way he just criticized stereotypes portrayed in the media for the damage they do, then a few sentences later he's off attacking those geeky nerd boys who'll never get their hands on a real woman. I wonder how much damage that tired old cliche has done in its day?

And really I think you should let the little things go. Worry about the underlying culture by all means but pick the right major cultural icons to concern yourself about. If you're going to fly off the handle every time some guy draws a picture of a girl with big boobs you're just going to make yourself look like a gibbering loon. That's just my opinion. :)

He does not boast. He just types the truth. Women just run to rendevouz with him. I even had to stop Lorena.

Even I feel attracted a bit. You can't imagine how attractive Petter is.

EDIT: But Helm is even more sexy...

Quote from: Farlander on Fri 03/03/2006 13:52:36
He does not boast. He just types the truth. Women just run to rendevouz with him. I even had to stop Lorena.

Even I feel attracted a bit. You can't imagine how attractive Petter is.

As long as this attraction isn't based on any cultural stereotype of what you are "supposed" to find attractive that has caused many people who don't conform to mutilate and kill themselves then I am fine with that.  ;D

He is beauty jsut by natural effects. I can even add more! If he enters in a surgery room to remove the two spare nipples he would loss attractive. It would be like shaving Helm's butt, you know?

Quote

I never said anything about women being superior to men... now did I?

Quote

Quote

Well, you may be right. I don't know; I have no idea what it's like to be a man. The fact of the matter is, women as a group ARE still experiencing a lot of problems that men couldn't even imagine. And so are many other minority groups. Hell, even rich white heterosexual men have their share of problems, I'm sure.

Quote

Just give us men a chance to try and understand.Ã,  Ã, You keep saying that women are experiencing these problems, but you're not citing anything that is not uncommon, or unique just to women.Ã,  Men suffer sexual harrasment too, domestic violence is about fifty/fifty now, with little less than half of domestic violence being perpetrated against men by women.Ã,  Men are now a minority in colleges, and boys are falling behind girls in school.Ã,  Women have numerous hotlines and organizations that will assist them if they're being discriminated against.

I can't honestly say that women have it all that bad.Ã,  It's probably as good as it's ever going to get for ANY of us.

Quote

I just don't think we should neglect the problems that women face just because everyone else has problems too. Ã, I'm not saying that women's problems are more important to solve than everyone else's, though; we should try our best to find solutions to all problems.

Quote

I agree wholeheartedly.Ã,  I don't think that problems are being neglected, but as I said before, they're not going to be eliminated.Ã,  But we at least have to have damage control, and I think that's what all those phone numbers and government offices are for.Ã,  If you're experiencing sexual harrasment, report it.

As far as pressure to be sexy, don't let anybody tell you that you HAVE to be sexy.Ã,  Just be who you are, and the nicer guys will notice that.

Quote from: Raggit on Fri 03/03/2006 15:13:25
As far as pressure to be sexy, don't let anybody tell you that you HAVE to be sexy.Ã,  Just be who you are, and the nicer guys will notice that.

It's not about being noticed. It's not like I 've never been told by a guy that I'm beautiful just the way I am. It's not like I don't believe I'm beautiful just the way I am. The thing that bothers me is why the emphasis is on "beautiful" in the first place, and why guys don't really compliment me (or women in general, I've noticed... correct me if I'm wrong) on my personality.

If anyone here plans on responding to my comment with something along the lines of "people are shallow and that's never going to change; get used to it", well, I respectfully disagree.

Quote from: modgeulator on Fri 03/03/2006 13:43:37
And really I think you should let the little things go. Worry about the underlying culture by all means but pick the right major cultural icons to concern yourself about. If you're going to fly off the handle every time some guy draws a picture of a girl with big boobs you're just going to make yourself look like a gibbering loon. That's just my opinion. :)

I'm terribly sorry, but did you even bother to read the post I made about a page ago (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25372.msg319300#msg319300)? Gah!

Quote from: Raggit on Fri 03/03/2006 15:13:25
Ã,  Ã, You keep saying that women are experiencing these problems, but you're not citing anything that is not uncommon, or unique just to women.Ã, 

She did mention: "I am being paid less than men of equal station to mine at work." Which is very real.

QuoteMen suffer sexual harrasment too, domestic violence is about fifty/fifty now, with little less than half of domestic violence being perpetrated against men by women.Ã,  Men are now a minority in colleges, and boys are falling behind girls in school.Ã, 

Interesting statements, sources?

No, it's the first thing people comment on because it's the first thing they see. Unless someone catches you helping an old lady across the street, or kicking a dog, they can't really comment on your personality.

I find nothing wrong with the boobies. Perhaps some people would take the game less seriously for them, but I don't see how, and it wouldn't be me. As mentioned, some women DO have such large breasts, and it's not really accurate to take them as a reflection of their other traits.

QuoteIt's not about being noticed. It's not like I 've never been told by a guy that I'm beautiful just the way I am...

Well gosh, that all goes for guys too.
I would define myself as not particularly attractive, but I reckon I'm a fairly cool guy if you get to know me. That doesn't, of course, help you meet women as unfortunately, first impression counts for loads and if you are wafer thin and a bit gangly, most girls pass you over. It's a fact of life and it doesn't bother me.

I have never, ever, been told by a girl that "wow, you have a lovely personality" cos, heck, it's just not the sort of thing that you say.

Beauty isn't just skin deep. Somebody can be beautiful without being conventionally attractive.

edit: It is, of course, entirely possible that I actually have a crap personality. That'd be pretty annoying.

QuoteMen have issues with their bodies too, yes, but there is also a significantly greater percentage of men who don't care about looking sexy and are seen as socially-acceptable than women who feel the same.

Umm...Hair replacement and penis enlargement sell a lot of products every year. I Ã, sure hope women aren't buying them.

Quote
Why is it that in movies, when an ugly geek guy falls in love with a hot girl, he gets to remain ugly and geeky,

Because his dick could make the Grand Canyon moan?

Seriously though, women are less visually oriented than men are as far as sexual arousal is concerned. This is why the porn industry serves more male customers than females.
And most of the pretty women I know have very low standards when it comes to men (and are very insecure about their looks). They would call another woman ugly based only on the color of her eyeshadow or its application, but will overlook all sorts of physical deformities in a male (OMG, but he's funny!).

Quote
Why is it that Napoleon Dynamite can dance like a complete dork while girls who dance have to be graceful in doing so?

So Summer was dancing "gracefully" in the skit before? Keep in mind that Napolean doesn't end up dating a supermodel, just another geek.

Quote
And the question I asked before: why are naked men generally seen as funny, while naked women are generally seen as OMGSEXY?

Because women are less visually oriented, men don't have the need to look as attractive (they just need to make the girl feel good) to appeal. However, I've never seen a girl laugh at a topless male underwear model or a Playgirl centerfold before. If you do, something might be wrong... Note that this isn't the same as Will Ferrell "streaking to the quad". This is funny, mostly because he has a college student mentality in a middle-aged body. I think the joke would be equally funny if it was a middle aged woman instead, but in that case I think only the guys would laugh and the girls would be embarrassed or offended.

I can guarentee you that no man finds ALL naked women OMGSEXY.

Also, there's a difference between "fair" and "equal".


*** EDIT: As far as college matriculation rates go, we are going to see a reversal of Title IX rules (protection of the underrepresented gender in institutions that take any federal funds) within the next 5 years. That's how few males are going on to college in the US.

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Fri 03/03/2006 16:17:10
I have never, ever, been told by a girl that "wow, you have a lovely personality" cos, heck, it's just not the sort of thing that you say.

Wow, you have a lovely personality!

Eric, here's some sources:

Boys falling behind girls in school: 
  Here's an interesting article on MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/

   This covers some of the same ground, and provides statistics for the college statement:
http://voice.paly.net/view_story.php?id=3855

   Here's some more on the college issue:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec02/college.html

   Another interview on MSNBC, with the author of SEE JANE HIT.  A few pages back in the article is some info about domestic violence etc.  The whole article contains some very interesting stats:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11602651/

More on topic, my domestic violence statement may've been incorrect, but if I can find it, I'll provide a specific source that cited violence against men as 40% or somewhere slightly below half.  It may not have been domestic violence.  I don't remember. 

I love women. I love ALL women. ALL WOMEN EVER. Women are swell. I prefer women to men. Men aren't swell. I should know. I am one.

To loosely paraphrase what a great person once said:

"Vagina. What a lovely word. Imagine if Vagina was the name of holiday destination. Come to Vagina. It sounds so inviting. Penis, though, who'd want to go there? It always rains, and they have a shitty public transport system."

Womenwomenwomenwomenwomenwomenwomenwomenwomen!

Reasons? I don't need any. And any reasons I might have had I've forgotten. I don't care.

A woman who does the same job as a man shouldn't be paid less than that man. Another man doing that same job shouldn't be paid any less either. Nor should a woman be paid any more. But then equality would raise it own issues.When a pregnant women is allowed paid maternity leave, should a man whose wife is expecting be allowed six months paid "Fathering Leave" after the baby is born?

Ridiculous? Fairly. But "Equality", in the very purest sense, in every area of life, and enforced to the letter, is a fairly ridiculous notion.

When the spectre of sexual harrasment  hangs over the working western world like a big panicky blanket, where even a friendly smile can be misconstrude as a come on, hasn't the gulf of sexual equality between "Men" and "Women" become even wider?

btw, can I buy sexy lingerie for my girlfriend, or am I objectifying her as a sexual object, and, therefore, should I buy her something more practical like support hose?

Men can take paternity leave http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/8258.html and it isn't ridiculous at all really. In the US at least.

I KNEW it would be real. ::)

But then, the US is a fairly ridiculous place.


DISCLAIMER: The sweeping generalization above should not be taken as fact. SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS FACT. It is simply an opinion. All inquiries towards justification of said statement will be ignored. END OF LINE.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Fri 03/03/2006 19:28:44
btw, can I buy sexy lingerie for my girlfriend, or am I objectifying her as a sexual object, and, therefore, should I buy her something more practical like support hose?

If she's anything like me, you should buy her a new MP3 player or a good fantasy book.

And I would get what from this transaction? :=

Just want to say, if a single man wants to adopt a child or anything happens to the mother during birth or tons and tons of circumstances that can happen do indeed happen, paternity leave makes 300 tons of sense.

Hey, it's YOU buying HER a gift. If she were to buy YOU a gift, on the other hand, THEN she could buy sexy lingerie.

EDIT: And perhaps to encourage her, you could get yourself a skimpy leopard-print thong.

Fair point. :P

I'm pretty sure that paternity leave exist, or if not is bound to exist in a little hwile, in UK too, and it makes tons of sense!

Can open, worms EVERYWHERE!

Quote from: LimpingFish on Fri 03/03/2006 19:28:44
Ridiculous? Fairly. But "Equality", in the very purest sense, in every area of life, and enforced to the letter, is a fairly ridiculous notion.

I agree. As Big Brother said, the final goal is to reach a fair situation, not an equality one. That's what I was talking about when I was saying that we must look for parity, but respecting the natural differences between sexes.

Can't you all just reserve your judgement until they actually finish the game? I'd like to wait until I play the game to decide whether it objectifies women in an offensive way or if it promotes unhealthy body images. You've seen some screenshots but you haven't read the dialogue and you don't know the story. I'd be more interested to see how this character interacts with her world then deciding based on a few pictures. If she acts like some trashy bimbo all the way through the game then I'll concede that the offended people had it right.

What game? There's a game? Get out of our discussion of gnder issues!

Shit, sorry for the double post. I'll edit in something good later but, 200th post!!

Modgulator: as far as this thread is concerned, they asked what we thought.

Well, unless there's a point in the game where one gets to pop those boobs revealing that they were just balloons all along, I'll probably keep holding my opinions.

But after reading this thread, surely you agree all your opinions are wrong!

*looks down*

Look, my breasts aren't that much smaller than those ones (admittedly, not as shapely and perky), and I have a friend that's -several- cup sizes bigger than me. She's pretty stacked so I reckon she'd actually beat that woman. Now, if she got herself a really good bra and smooshed them upwards, she'd beat the pants off that nurse (AND she's cute). If she were naked, and her boobs were that perky, I'd say , "Sure, that's unlikely to happen" but she could well have amazing support under that nurses outfit, and have had implants. It's not unrealistic, it's just fantastically uncommon.

OSsquinky: if nobody has make a compliment to you about your personality... that's strange. In the relationships I've been, I've made a point of underlining that I find the person pleasing to be with for his various traits and overall personality just as much as I am there because I desire to viciously penis them. In fact, the effect is -*groan*, again this word- holistic. It is not a piece of flesh that also talks and is interesting to listen to, it is a person whose words, outlook, demeanour, amplify desire as much as they originally create it. This is why when sometimes you tell somebody that they are beautiful, when it's that sort of situation, it doesn't just mean 'you're beautiful'. Get? Whereas many people might not be as talkative about these things as me, most sure find ways to express this notion, maybe not with words all the time, but they do. Are you sure you were looking?

The person who said Andail is boasting: do something about your insecurities. Someone saying the truth because it is relevant to a point they're trying to make should not be accused for boasting.

"made a point of underlining that I find the person pleasing to be with for his various traits "

You sly dog you!

hey, man, gay, straight, whatever. A splendid penis is a splendid penis.

Referring to yours or his?

Why, do you want my number, Kinoko?

Hey, I only felt moved to comment after reading Andail's attack on the creators.

QuoteI bet the artists behind the 3D-models of wasp-waisted, balloon-breasted semi-nude creatures referred to as females have hardly been in the same room as a topless woman.

If you mean the attack on the creators of the Element game, learn to read.

As if you honestly don't think that attack isn't equally relevant to this game? I can see you're quite capable of reading, but clearly comprehending gives you some trouble.

No, it's not. Especially to the extent that it calls for ridiculous ad hominems about him being boastful.

I realise Andail is your friend and you feel the need to defend him.

Good for you. Also realize that the intention behind opinion here is not on trial, nor is the merit of the personality of he who is speaking. We are discussing opinions about a seperate subject here, a subject with far-reaching implications and various interesting aspects to it. If you have something to add to this, be my guest. If the length of your commentary is exhausted on calling people on being boastful or standing up for their friends, then I think I'm done with you.

I still feel that the original post I took offense to went beyond simply expressing opinions and contained a fairly obvious attack on the character of the people who created these images. You can disagree if you want.

Why, thank you.

WOW, I've just read all ten pages in one sitting!! I couldn't stop!  (If you now how slowly I read you would understand what a feat that is!)

And now I'm in the mood for rant!!

Deep breath …………   ok, here goes: -

First off, I would like to congratulate LimpingFish on being the funniest guy I never met! I spat beer several times reading your posts  ;D

Ok, I'm just gunna completely body-swerve the whole female-oppression nonsense for a second and back-track to some earlier comments.

Quite early on in the thread BigBrother stated that the costume/boobs were inappropriate for the game: -

"Boobs/cleavage/scanty outfits aren't inappropriate unto themselves. However, in the context of the information revealed about the game, they are."

Many other people have went on to back up this argument stating over and over again things like: "Big boobs are inappropriate for a game of this nature" or "A game as serious as this will be ruined by the boobs"

How on earth can any of these arguments be justified?  The information is very scant at best, all I gleamed from the info that Lemmy101 and Captain Binky have disclosed is that its on an Island, its raining, crops are failing and a girl is found in a tree. 
I don't remember the part about it being all 'serious'. It mentions a problem (the failing crops and onset of famine or some such thing) and its seems clear that a solution must be found, but there is nothing to indicate that it needs to, or will be handled in a 'stern' or 'serious' manner.

I could outline a story plot with a serious crisis to be solved, and the heroes find a way to solve it all, and on reading the blurb you may think I was outlining a Tom Clancy novel, but I might actually be describing an episode of Thundercats!!!

Some of you guys seem to be jumping to massive conclusions about the game, and then bad-mouthing it based on information that YOU conjured up from your own social neuroses.

With that said, I see nothing inappropriate in having a girl with big boobs as the protagonist. I will go further and say that even if it is meant to be serious game, then what the hell is wrong big boobs anyway? I know some girls with MASSIVE boobs. Big boobs are not solely the reserve of fiction and fantasy.

The logo for Herculean-Efforts games sports an Image of Atlas holding up a bowling ball instead of the globe. Surely an image of Hercules himself rather than a completely different god would be a much more 'appropriate' image.

BigBrother, I don't say this to cause offence, it was just a mechanism to help me convey my point, which is this: - It's your logo not mine, and I have no right to criticise it even if I hold the opinion that it's inappropriate or simply a poor choice of image. And the same goes for Captain-Binkey's art work; it must be very annoying for him to read “inappropriate for the story blah blah” over and over.

The fact is, there are only two people who actually know _what_ the story is, and one of them drew the infamous boobies. That makes Lemmy&Binky the only people in the known universe who can actually decide what images are appropriate for their story.

Of course when it's done, and people know the story they can wax lyrical about how appropriate or otherwise it actually is.

I myself plan to start a closed-minded self-righteous puritan extremist blog about the finished game, regardless of its quality just to be an asshole. ;D  (Joke)

Additionally, quite a few people have stated that because the girl has big boobs they wouldn't be able to take the character seriously, and that this would spoil the game for them.

Two things on that subject: -

1.)   Personally I never “took Guybrush Threepwood seriously”, but that certainly doesn't stop the MI games from being absolutely awesome!
2.)   It raises a very disturbing issue indeed!

If certain individuals can't take a woman seriously because she has large breasts, then they are harbouring some very offensively discriminating views. These people are basically saying that if a woman has large breasts then she is a bimbo, she is incapable of functioning as an intelligent individual, and is not someone that they could possibly conceive being able to perform any useful/complex function, JUST BECAUSE HER BOOBS ARE LARGE! Shame on you!!!

And in the same breath you attempt to make out that the game-designers are somehow perverted or sexist when ITS YOU that categorically state you can't take a woman seriously if her boobs are big!

Who can spell HYPOCRISY?

(On a side note, I ran this through a spell checker and apparently I myself couldn't spell hypocrisy, ;D )

Well, I've had my rant ;D

Keep up the good work Lemmy101 and Captain Binky.

Cheers,
            Nickenstien.

So are you done with me now, am I free to go?

There's going to be a test on this in two weeks. Be prepared. You can leave for now.

Thank you, sir. May I have my gameboy back now?

Nickenstein, I'm sorry, but you ask many questions that have been answered many times in this thread. The creators of the game asked for our opinions, giving us a "right" to speak about it, yes no?

Read my response to TerranRich and tell me your opinion please.

MrColossal.   They asked "Would you realy define this as "valgar" ?)    They certainley didnt ask if anybody thought the images were inappropriate for a story that they havent yet been told.

QuoteThey asked "Would you realy define this as "valgar"

no they didn't.

Is Valgar the woman's name?
I could imagine "Valgar" would have big breasts like this, but she'd also have a double chin and a viking helmet. They should fix that ASAP.

Quote from: Nickenstien on Sat 04/03/2006 02:34:37
I don't remember the part about it being all 'serious'. It mentions a problem (the failing crops and onset of famine or some such thing) and its seems clear that a solution must be found, but there is nothing to indicate that it needs to, or will be handled in a 'stern' or 'serious' manner.

It's a stylistic issue, rather than a narrative one.

Quote
The logo for Herculean-Efforts games sports an Image of Atlas holding up a bowling ball instead of the globe. Surely an image of Hercules himself rather than a completely different god would be a much more 'appropriate' image.

One of Hercules' tasks involved holding up the globe in Atlas' stead. It would be hard to design a logo that visually differentiates Hercules from Atlas in an easily apparent manner. Hence the word "Herculean" to give the viewer a clue. Is it really that far-fetched?

Quote
It's your logo not mine, and I have no right to criticise it even if I hold the opinion that it's inappropriate or simply a poor choice of image. And the same goes for Captain-Binkey's art work; it must be very annoying for him to read “inappropriate for the story blah blah” over and over.

It would be impolite to criticize my logo, since I did not submit it for your approval. However, Cap'n B SPECIFICALLY STARTED THIS WHOLE THREAD TO GET FEEDBACK. If he didn't want opinions, why would he start this? Gray matter, people, it's not just for breakfast these days.

Quote
Additionally, quite a few people have stated that because the girl has big boobs they wouldn't be able to take the character seriously, and that this would spoil the game for them.

For me it's less about the boobs themselves and more about the rendering.

Quote
1.)   Personally I never “took Guybrush Threepwood seriously”, but that certainly doesn't stop the MI games from being absolutely awesome!

SMI never took itself seriously. The game self-references, breaks the fourth wall, and sports anachronisms. Did you really think it tried to be taken seriously???

Quote
2.)   It raises a very disturbing issue indeed!

If certain individuals can't take a woman seriously because she has large breasts, then they are harbouring some very offensively discriminating views. These people are basically saying that if a woman has large breasts then she is a bimbo, she is incapable of functioning as an intelligent individual, and is not someone that they could possibly conceive being able to perform any useful/complex function, JUST BECAUSE HER BOOBS ARE LARGE! Shame on you!!!

She's not a real person. She is an admittedly idealized exageration of the female form drawn by a hormone-influenced artist. I mean, the nurse outfit isn't exactly subtle. What people can't take seriously is the idealization, not the concept of a female protagonist possessing front seat airbags.

Quote
And in the same breath you attempt to make out that the game-designers are somehow perverted or sexist when ITS YOU that categorically state you can't take a woman seriously if her boobs are big!

Who are you talking to? I didn't draw her; she's not my fantasy. How am I a hypocrit? Have I contradicted myself?

Of course, you'd never (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=22718.msg279232#msg279232) depict a woman in such a blatantly sexualized way, bb.Ã,  ;D

But yeah, a lot of people are reading the criticism incorrectly.

No one is saying that boobs are vulgar. They're saying that cheap softcore graphics are vulgar. The argument isn't that players can't take a woman with big breasts seriously, it's that it's more difficult to take the character seriously when she has clearly been designed to stimulate adolescent impulses. It doesn't really matter if the game provides an elaborate excuse for why she has to have big breasts and a tiny nurse's uniform, because it's pretty obvious that she looks like that in order to provide some T&A.

Quote from: Nickenstien on Sat 04/03/2006 02:34:37
I myself plan to start a closed-minded self-righteous puritan extremist blog about the finished game, regardless of its quality just to be an asshole. ;DÃ,  (Joke)

Hey, it was just one entry that took about two minutes to write. Has anyone here ever read the rest of my blog? Did anyone even recognize the fact that much of what I wrote in there was tongue-in-cheek?

Also, it astounds me how people often define open and closed-mindedness incorrectly. Being open-minded doesn't mean you have liberal views, and being closed-minded doesn't mean you have conservative views. It has more to do with how willing you are to evaluate and take into account the opinions of others, no matter how liberal or conservative.

QuoteHas anyone here ever read the rest of my blog?

Yes

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Sat 04/03/2006 07:23:22

Quote from: Nickenstien on Sat 04/03/2006 02:34:37
I myself plan to start a closed-minded self-righteous puritan extremist blog about the finished game, regardless of its quality just to be an asshole. ;D  (Joke)

Hey, it was just one entry that took about two minutes to write. Has anyone here ever read the rest of my blog? Did anyone even recognize the fact that much of what I wrote in there was tongue-in-cheek?

Defensive, much?  Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions here, but after the first reading and upon re-reading it, that Nick segment seems more for poking playful fun at the creators and reactionism in general than directed towards your blog entry.  While I don't necessarily agree with everything in your blog entry, I find the views therein understandable.  That said, I don't think there's anything someone would label close-minded or puritan.  Breathe deeply.

Sorry, but considering that I'm the only person who blogged about this particular game, it just seemed as though the comment was directed at me specifically.

Wow this thing just keeps rolling!  :o

And staggers, drunkenly, in new and unexpected directions!

Just for the record, I re-read The Inquisitive Strangers blog again , slowly and with much furrowing of brow.

Then I realised that I hadn't directly commented on it throughout this thread.

I don't like it. Its not her argument, or her opinions, but her apparent smugness. Her assumptions. Her apparent eagerness for finger wagging.

It also contributes little, to the larger issue of gender stereotyping or much else, except a snide dismissal of Captain Binky and his friends work.

All of which, of course, she is entitled to do.

It was also short.

That, I liked.

hurray! boobies!

Quote from: skyfire1 on Sat 04/03/2006 21:39:48
hurray! boobies!

LOL, there's some more gasoline for this fire!!    ;D

I like how some people seem to forget the positively shameless nudity displayed in such classics as Monkey Island 2.

(http://americangirlscouts.org/agsuploads/ProgZmax/gboob.gif)

Oh, I remember that part. And not only did I write puritanical narrow-minded blog entries about it, but I went and picketed outside the LucasArts building (accompanied by various right-wing religious groups and radical feminists, of course) as well! ;)

The biggest problem I have with opinion blogs, OS squinky's blog in that sense, is that they contain opinions. Every time I read a large post by OSsquinky I go 'gah! pain! rationalizations... hurt.. brain!' but that really isn't her fault at all. She finds it important to have, and expound on, generalized opinions that seem to put order and reason  in the world... just like you, Limpingfish. You're all rationalizations and generalizations too. You say she's smug about it, and I say you're trying to be funny about it when you're not. Both are irritating in their own special way.

There might come a time when both of you and other opinion people (as I used to be 100%) will realize how much the sets of words you use to talk about reality fail to ghrasp both the intricacy of the design, and the interactivity of it's various disparate parts, and you might see that these discussions here have more to do with feeling good, challenging our brains and having fun than they have to do with actually understanding reality or anything of the type. You then will look back on posts and posts of opinions you've put online and you'll see a bunch of words in a row.

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Sun 05/03/2006 03:30:55
Oh, I remember that part. And not only did I write puritanical narrow-minded blog entries about it, but I went and picketed outside the LucasArts building (accompanied by various right-wing religious groups and radical feminists, of course) as well! ;)

I was there too, though I was picketing the Sam & Max abortion mini-game that was (thanks to our efforts) removed from the final product.

As for my previous post, as stated I've no idea what Nick meant by the phrase, but default to interpretation with the least belligerence in the interest of civility.  I find the conversation that the thread's spawned rather interesting, but better suited for discussion in a more real-time format so potential miscommunications can be promptly corrected.

Late agin, but just to address something...

Quote from: MrColossal on Fri 03/03/2006 03:58:29
DG: Very good, this is a big pointless thread, then why did you post in it? Does the thread have a point now? Or are you now wasting your time when you should be starting threads about homeless people or something important.

You so misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Why did I post in a pointless thread? Hmm, I don't know. Maybe to tell people that it IS a big pointless thread that seems to be growing like hairy pimple each day. It's not so much that it is pointless. It's more that I felt that the subject matter didn't really warrant the thread's growth. But, hey, maybe cartoon titties really do warrant a 12 page discussion.

But I love how you switch the accusations to me, trying to make me seem like a hypocrite, even though all I'm doing is stating the obvious. Let me ask you then, if you think I should be posting about homeless people, then why aren't YOU posting about homeless people? Too busy talking about cartoon boobies, I presume?

Wow, see how easily I did that!

EDIT: Since the thread has gotten this big, I should mention Hitler and the Nazis.

Warning: Rant of the day, kind of gets off on a tangent.

To me, vulgar has nothing to do with it. Looking at the screenshots of the game for a while, it looks like the style is a very realistic, like it's going to deal with some serious business, but then those overly exaggerated breasts are just kind of silly in the middle of all that serious look, like the they have absolutely no meaning to the rest of the story but to amuse the designer.

And this is why nobody takes video games seriously. It's because most games are designed for the creator's amusement/enjoyment instead of being made people who play it.

Adventure games are common of having the classic complex of letting the player play the game but AS LONG AS the player is my (the creator's) puppet, and he/she must follow the game exactly to my design as it was a film with puzzles in between or else the player will die or walk around til they get bored and quit playing the game for a few weeks or forever. Too bad, I made my game and I made it. Hold on, I need to stroke my ego. There ware a few thousands who were into this sort of masochism, but when they invested more money and nobody the market was not expanding, then it was killed for good.

On the other side, the mainstream game, the creator's complex is that he must exploit all his personal fantasies, and since it's usually a rather introverted computer guy, then it involves women with huge boobs and big guns where you can blow up shit all over the place. That's what we all want to secretly be forever, right guys? Right girls? Oh look, nerds who save all their money will buy and (maybe, who really cares after it's purchased) play any of these games. Let's make more of them!

You, my friend, have somehow started to incorporate the latter into the former. I'm not really stopping you from making the game, but I must warn you that I think you have taken a step backward into the already-dead adventure genre. Who knows, at least it will entertain us guys while we're walking dead on a puzzle, if the animation matches that of Dead or Alive extreme beach volleyball. Please add a camera feature to zoom and pan all the way in. ;)

I don't find the image vulgar, but you might want to change it.
If you advertise your game using a screenshot like that, you risk your potential audience stereotyping your game as one of those that simply HAS to have a skimpily dressed woman with exaggerated features to find an audience because it has no other merits to stand on its own.

Quote from: MrColossal on Sat 04/03/2006 01:01:54
Modgulator: as far as this thread is concerned, they asked what we thought.

They asked what you thought of the images, they didn't ask what you thought of the people who drew them.

Quote from: Helm on Sun 05/03/2006 05:06:35
There might come a time when both of you and other opinion people (as I used to be 100%) will realize how much the sets of words you use to talk about reality fail to ghrasp both the intricacy of the design, and the interactivity of it's various disparate parts, and you might see that these discussions here have more to do with feeling good, challenging our brains and having fun than they have to do with actually understanding reality or anything of the type. You then will look back on posts and posts of opinions you've put online and you'll see a bunch of words in a row.

What's wrong with challenging our brains and having fun?

Admittedly, part of the reason I enjoy overrationalizing is because I love to annoy people who have a "don't overthink things; live in the moment"-type of mentality.

nothing's wrong with having fun. Just as long as we know we're not approaching any brilliant singularity here or anything.

I used to be so annoyed by those 'live the moment, dude' people myself.

one thing that you people must understand is that video games have merits - very many merits!. that means that you should enjoy the merits for what they are instead of trying to appease your own self-centerness. is there relevance in all of this? well, i have a picture to prove their worth...

(http://www.3dgames.com.ar/imagenes/juegos/Tomb%20Raider%20Legend/laraojo.jpg)

hurray! two merits!

Lara's breasts are smaller than they used to be.

It's incredible!

Quote from: ManicMatt on Sun 05/03/2006 19:51:51
Lara's breasts are smaller than they used to be.

It's incredible!

See? they're actually learning!

Actually, they replaced the extra boobage with some midriff and the most unconfortable t-shirt I've ever seen.

Quote from: Edmundo on Sun 05/03/2006 08:05:50
It's because most games are designed for the creator's amusement/enjoyment instead of being made people who play it.

isn't that what independent amateur games are all about? that and the inability to spell?

Quote from: Mordalles on Sun 05/03/2006 20:14:34

Quote from: Edmundo on Sun 05/03/2006 08:05:50
It's because most games are designed for the creator's amusement/enjoyment instead of being made people who play it.

isn't that what independent amateur games are all about? that and the inability to spell?

If you stick the word amateur in there, then of course. But it doesn't have to be. It's not mandatory as far as I know.

Quote from: Edmundo on Sun 05/03/2006 08:05:50
It's because most games are designed for the creator's amusement/enjoyment instead of being made people who play it.

isn't that what independent games are all about? that and the inability to spell?  ;D

Quote from: Edmundo on Sun 05/03/2006 08:05:50
Warning: Rant of the day, kind of gets off on a tangent.

Does it ever.  But at the risk of continuing its off-topic-ness, I'll reply anyway.

Quote from: Edmundo on Sun 05/03/2006 08:05:50
And this is why nobody takes video games seriously. It's because most games are designed for the creator's amusement/enjoyment instead of being made people who play it.

Hm...actually, I disagree there.  I think it's the games that are made for the creator's enjoyment are actually the ones that end up being the most fun to play.  It's the games that are made with a conscious deliberation to toss in things to try to appeal to as many players as possible that end up appealing to nobody. 

Okay, obviously, that's a bit of an oversimplification, and there are other issues involved.  Inside jokes, for example, are one thing that may be hilarious to the game's creator and his friends but aren't going to appeal to anyone else.  Still, in general, and with certain qualifications, I think the best art and entertainment is generally that which was designed as something the creators thought they would enjoy.

Now, maybe you were saying that games are designed for the amusement of the creator in a different way--not that the creator thought it was something he would enjoy playing, but simply because he enjoyed creating it, and thinking over the frustration he would be causing in his victims, which is to say players.  And if that's what you meant, then yes, I agree that would be a bad thing.  In that case, though, I'm not convinced that's as endemic a phenomenon as you say.

QuoteAdventure games are common of having the classic complex of letting the player play the game but AS LONG AS the player is my (the creator's) puppet, and he/she must follow the game exactly to my design as it was a film with puzzles in between or else the player will die or walk around til they get bored and quit playing the game for a few weeks or forever.

In other words, the games are linear?  Because that's all you seem to be describing here.  Well, yeah, a case could be made for more nonlinearity in adventure games, but I think it's ludicrous to assert that linearity in adventure games is a result of the creators' monstrous ego and is responsible for the supposed death of the genre.

(http://sylpher.com/novomestro/stuff/stopitjim.jpg)

Woah, threads grow fast these days.

Modgegulator: I didn't mean to boast. I said that I don't have any personal preferences that make me biased against women with big breasts, for the sake of the argument.
If you think it's boasting when I state that I, being 25 years old, have been with at least one woman with big breasts and with at least one with no breasts at all, maybe you're just a bit sensitive about these things, for personal reasons. I didn't say that they were attractive, numerous, or anything like that.

The authors of the post asked for opinions, and I gave mine. Sorry if you can't handle them.

Kinoko: You seem pretty upset for no reason. I'm a bit disappointed that you failed so much to grasp my point.

I loath the stereotypes that are generated and maintained by this type of pictures. I'm not personally hurt by them. My interest in this matter isn't personal. I don't cut my arms, I don't starve myself, I don't spend money on expensive surgical operations.

Jesus, nevermind really. This topic probably isn't meant for gen-gen.

Wowzers, this thread's got big.
Figured that it's about time I put my 2p in.

Firstly, concerning stylistic implications - I have absolutely no intentions to modify the style of this character. While I appreciate everybody's opinions, decisions over style will be made by me and Lemmy. If I wanted critques, I would have posted the images in the critics lounge. If we were to adopt this approach to all the art in the game, then we'd never finish :)

What I was interested in was whether the image constitued being "vulgar" since if this was the case, then we may have had to re-think the graphics since it would have implications over uploading screenshots on other forums - we've already had issues on one site due to the large proportion on under 13 year olds who read it.

I think the general consensus is, she may not be to my taste, but it's hardly vulgar. Which is fine - I wouldn't expect any aspect of the game to be everybody's cup of tea.

Ultimately, by the time the game (or at least the demo) is finished, we'll have plenty of material to advertise the game with, of which this girl will be just one picture. There are a large number of key male characters in the game, as well as women who are more "average" proportion-wise. The girl character will always stand out and look a bit different to the other charcters, and you may wish to call this a poor style choice. However, to me and Lemmy this is kind of the point of the character - that she does stand out and look different. So again, we will not be changing her because of this.

However, I think that conclusion was drawn at around about page 1. But at least it's been an enjoyable read :D

Quote from: Andail on Mon 06/03/2006 11:34:58
Woah, threads grow fast these days.

Modgegulator: I didn't mean to boast. I said that I don't have any personal preferences that make me biased against women with big breasts, for the sake of the argument.
If you think it's boasting when I state that I, being 25 years old, have been with at least one woman with big breasts and with at least one with no breasts at all, maybe you're just a bit sensitive about these things, for personal reasons. I didn't say that they were attractive, numerous, or anything like that.

The authors of the post asked for opinions, and I gave mine. Sorry if you can't handle them.

It wasn't about boasting so much as the condescending venom you had for the creators of these pictures and everyone who disagreed with you. You are deliberating taking it out of context as Helm did before you. The accusation of boasting has to be taken next to your inference that all people who create exaggerated pictures of women with big breasts must be pathetic nerds. As I've said before they asked for opinions of the images, not opinions of the creators. I really feel sorry for these guys, they've obviously put a lot of work into their creations and I can't imagine what it must be like to be on the receiving end of all this stupid reactionary shit. Looking at the first post you can clearly see they were really looking for reassurance after being shocked by the negative reaction they had had elsewhere.

Quote from: modgeulator on Mon 06/03/2006 12:18:51
I really feel sorry for these guys, they've obviously put a lot of work into their creations and I can't imagine what it must be like to be on the receiving end of all this stupid reactionary shit. Looking at the first post you can clearly see they were really looking for reassurance after being shocked by the negative reaction they had had elsewhere.

Bless you :) However, we're made of thicker skin than that. We've had some lovely comments on the main thread (as well as on a couple of other forums) and we know that topics like this can get a bit carried away and we're not taking any of it personally. But you are right about the point of this thread, and there are at least a few posts which are reassuring. So that's enough for us :) I guess we did take things a little personally to begin with, but you live and learn, and if anything we've been encouraged rather than put off because we do believe that most (if not all) of the concerns are addressed within the game.

Quote from: modgeulator on Mon 06/03/2006 12:18:51
I can't imagine what it must be like to be on the receiving end of all this stupid reactionary shit. Looking at the first post you can clearly see they were really looking for reassurance after being shocked by the negative reaction they had had elsewhere.

Reactionary shit?
Condemning John Lennon for being nude on their album cover is reactionary shit. Banning the shit-word from television is reactionary shit. Shooting doctors in abortion clinics is reactionary shit.
For all I care, we should all go around naked whenever it is warm enough. I'm a veritable hippie when it comes to liberties.

But this is a matter of objectification, and fuelling of stereotypes. Can you see the difference? Please try.
You feel sorry for these guys? Jesus, they don't even feel sorry for themselves. Just because they put a lot of effort in something doesn't mean we must praise it and appreciate it.
You're running a pretty strange case here, mister.

Quote from: Andail on Mon 06/03/2006 12:42:14

Quote from: modgeulator on Mon 06/03/2006 12:18:51
I can't imagine what it must be like to be on the receiving end of all this stupid reactionary shit. Looking at the first post you can clearly see they were really looking for reassurance after being shocked by the negative reaction they had had elsewhere.

For all I care, we should all go around naked whenever it is warm enough. I'm a veritable hippie when it comes to liberties.

Three years saying the version that you were not actually naked, just photoshopped, because you were wearing a tuxedo, and now the truth comes. The thruth made us free, bring these bermudas to Mittens  again.

I think you're all missing the deep, meaningful significance of Oranges' post.

Stereotypes are one thing. If this woman walks around drooling on herself and can't think because she's just a stupid girl, and the whole thing is completely devoid of irony, then that would be pretty offensive, sure.

But objectification? I'm sure it upsets some people but personally I couldn't care less. To be honest, I'm all for objectification I think it's great. Sometimes it can even be taken to the level of a form of art. I think when you sexually objectify an image of a man or woman you're creating a fiction. It's not something from the real world that could exist, it's just an act. It isn't real. I don't believe that stereotypes and objectification have to go hand in hand.

Quote from: modgeulator on Mon 06/03/2006 13:16:18
I'm all for objectification I think it's great.

Ok, thank you for letting me know where you stand.

And now my 2c worth. All things considered, if we were selling this game, we might be more concerned with certain "demographics" being turned off and not playing the game due to one picture, and we might then consider changing it. After all players = $$$ and we can't afford to lose a single one...

However we are doing this game largely for our own enjoyment, and can imagine a few people playing the game regardless. Whilst it would be great to have as many people playing as possible, if it's not everyone's cup of tea then fair play, I say...

Those who do play will hopefully see what we are trying to do, and hopefully will then come on the forums, or post reviews on the game stating that they think it was actually a good choice of style of main character, and that she is a positive role model... possibly that any other look, proportions, dress, or anything else would be of detriment to the game.

Then those who were repelled from playing the game may then consider giving it a chance.

The reaction we have recieved from some people is comparable (in my eyes) to the reactionary media and public reaction to the Brass Eye special. Anyone who has seen it (and got it) will know exactly what I'm getting at. It only stands to reaffirm the point that is being made.

So those who oppose, please feel free :)

I haven't seen the brass eye special, but wasn't it the case of comedy concerning pederasty or somesort? Where humour versus people getting offended was the general vibe.

Your art containing huge boobs is not comparable, as this is not a vessel for vital societal opinion and critique (other than 'I like big boobs') so let's not get carried away. I have no problem with the art besides that I don't personally salivate over this sort of thing, but let's not go the opposite way and paint this as some sort of ideological stand.

So every time we see scantily dressed women with huge breasts, we are to presume they're a part of a thoroughly concieved agenda, designed to constitute healthy and positive role models?

That they're not just there to attract a certain audience?

Ooops, my spam guard just kicked in.

Oh dear, new can of worms opened...

Quote
So every time we see scantily dressed women with huge breasts, we are to presume they're a part of a thoroughly concieved agenda, designed to constitute healthy and positive role models?

Nope, you're absolutely right in 99.99% of times*

Our character, is not there for T&A although that is certainly one of the side-effects. I think comparisons to Brass Eye are going a little far since at least as far as that show was concerned, the viewer had all the information they required to see the satire. Jumping up and down and screaming hatred really was the most severe of ironies. As we have previously stated, since all the facts about our character are not yet revealved, nobody can possibly jump to conclusions other than those jumped to and hence why we don't take it personally.

*I have made this number up, I have absolutely no factual evidence to back it up with

Apologies, I'll just pop the lid back on this can of worms.

Quote from: Andail on Mon 06/03/2006 14:28:13
So every time we see scantily dressed women with huge breasts, we are to presume they're a part of a thoroughly concieved agenda, designed to constitute healthy and positive role models?

Okay fair point, I worded that a little badly.

I was more focusing on the reaction from our perspective, now, and from the perspective of people playing the game when it's finished. The point here is 'don't judge a book by its cover'. Obviously people do, and a lot of the time they are correct in their assumptions. I'm merely saying that this is a theme we explore in the game, and the reactions we've had only go to prove the theme in the game to be an accurate one.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong to point her appearance out in a negative light, and I'm not saying we intended or anticipated this reaction, I'm just saying there is a strange parallel here.

This is my new favourite band, these guys make me wanna rip my clothes off and dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_VMB8d19Y&search=sazan

If that's objectification, bring it on ^_^

(just seemed like a good thread to post that in)

I dislike large breasts.

Since you can reply late, I suppose I can too:

Quote from: DGMacphee on Sun 05/03/2006 07:04:44
Maybe to tell people that it IS a big pointless thread that seems to be growing like hairy pimple each day. It's not so much that it is pointless. It's more that I felt that the subject matter didn't really warrant the thread's growth. But, hey, maybe cartoon titties really do warrant a 12 page discussion.

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/deegus.gif)

Oh Deegius the Shepherd, show us the way! :P

QuoteThe point here is 'don't judge a book by its cover'.

You specifically asked people in this thread their opinion on said cover, bypassing their better judgement to -as you say- not judge by appearances. Nnnrgh

Quote from: Helm on Mon 06/03/2006 16:33:10

QuoteThe point here is 'don't judge a book by its cover'.

You specifically asked people in this thread their opinion on said cover, bypassing their better judgement to -as you say- not judge by appearances. Nnnrgh

Yes, agreed:

"I'm not saying anyone is wrong to point her appearance out in a negative light, and I'm not saying we intended or anticipated this reaction, I'm just saying there is a strange parallel here."

A parallel. to what.

Quote from: lemmy101 on Mon 06/03/2006 15:09:38
The point here is 'don't judge a book by its cover'.

I think some people are hoping to have a peek inside that scanty cover...

Okay, I think it's time to just spill the beans a little. Forgive me Binky.

***********
SPOILERS
***********

The main character enters the game with a clean slate, for reasons that I'm not going to reveal here, and is totally naive to the world around her. In the opening section of the game she wakes up in a hospital. She needs to evade somebody and thus changes into a nurse uniform to disguise herself. Totally logical from her perspective. From there on in she wears that nurses uniform. It's not hers, and yes it's way too small.

A strong theme for the entire game is that she alone has the power to figure out what is happening on the island, and to stop what is happening.  However, the society within which the game is set is of a deeply chauvanistic nature. Men are the ones with all the power, women are seen as little more than sex objects and ways for the men to raise heirs.


As such, our main character, an extremely strong and intelligent woman, yet completely naive to the social workings on the island, to whom nudity, cleavage, inappropriate dress, attractiveness, and everything is of completely no consequence to her, cannot understand why she is recieving the reactions she gets. The social conditioning of physical appearence over internal worth has no bearing on her, and she thinks the whole world must be completely mad.

Men are more likely to tell her to sit on her lap than to give her useful information she needs, and women are hostile towards her because in their eyes she is doing nothing more than selling out their gender and "objectifying" them further.

So apart from saving Seahorse Island from doom, she might just be able to change the way people of Seahorse Island think towards outward appearance, and about men being empowered and women not being.

So hopefully you can appreciate that if our main character was an appropriately dressed, appropriately proportioned woman (there is actually another very good reason for the proportions, but I'm DEFINITELY not revealing this), this wouldn't work. It's the inhabitants of Seahorse Island's own prejudices and rash judgements on outward apprearances, her naivety as to why showing a bit of skin would possibly change others perception of her mind and worth, what she is capable of, and how she should be treat. This is one of the obstacles she must overcome, and hopefully change for the better, through the course of the story.

Furthermore, due to her lack of focus on the outward appearance, and despite being empowered physically to use her sexuality to progress, she NEVER does... not once. Even though she could simply say "I'll give you a kiss if you let me past", she would never do that.

imo, you should make her boobs bigger. they're too small.  ;D

Ok that makes a tad more sense, thanx for sharing. it still seems a bit silly (to me) for her to be QUITE that big, but best of luck to you and I hope to play when its finished

Interesting...

Firstly, I don't get why you had to keep this information such a secret. It doesn't really spoil the story's ending or anything, and certainly isn't going to keep people from playing the game. If anything, it'll probably encourage more people to play.

The message itself, well, not judging people according to their looks is a good thing and all. However, I'm a bit curious as to how you can justify the creation of a social commentary on the fact that you shouldn't judge women with huge titties when you yourself appear to have a mindset similar to the male inhabitants of your island. Take the following comments, for example:

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Mon 20/02/2006 15:34:53
Hey, if we have to draw 20 frames of walking * 4 directions, plus pushing, pulling, talking, idleing, opening things etc animations all in whatever spare time we can muster, then it's going to be a girl. Nothing wrong with that. Honest. *ahem*

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Thu 23/02/2006 13:08:38
I mean, you're not going to have an unattractive woman as your main character...

Quote from: Lemmy101 on my blog
So when we come to make a main character for our game. Are we going to go out of our way to make an unattractive woman with a flat chest, just to appease (admit it) a minority of people who may find it offensive?

When it comes down to it, comments such as these are what set me off in the first place. I'm not sure which of them were tongue-in-cheek and which ones weren't, but the very fact that you seem to subjectively categorize women as either "big-breasted" (and skinny as well... unless you like fat women with huge boobs, that is) or "unattractive" is a reflection of your own prejudices. Are you, therefore, making a negative social commentary about yourselves? I'm confused.

The movie Shallow Hal comes to mind... it was a movie with essentially the same message: that looking at one's personality is favourable to, well, just looking. However, in delivering this message, the creators of this film ended up perpetuating prejudices as to what is beautiful and what is ugly (a morbidly obese woman, of course, is always ugly), and blatantly ignoring the fact that physical beauty (as well as all other kinds of beauty, at that) is much more subjective and complex than just stereotypes.

Just a thought.

well, if you're going to post the very screenshot of the girl-close-up on almost every adventure forum out there, and nothing much else of the game, that is still in production mind you, then you're just looking for controversy. don't know why you were so surprised, really.

The cunning twist in the end of the game is actually that the protagonist takes off her shirt and two footballs fall on the ground.

Is this irony unintentional?

- An attractive woman who hasn't seen a mirror
- A chauvinist society that lives on "Seahorse" Island. Male seahorses (seastallions?) get pregnant and carry the babies.

Basically you're proposing a Milla Jovovich in 5th Element set on a island?

It would be more pointed if the story was set on a Polynesian island, where the men like their women big. The main character, instead of being unbelievably naive (to the point of not having a standard of beauty) could simply have a different standard of beauty than the males on the island. Let's say she's a little heavy, yet she considers the anoxeric coke-addicts in Vogue to be an ideal. She's used to being overlooked by the opposite sex, yet on this island she garners attention. At first maybe she thinks the men are mocking her, and the situation could be equally mysterious to the player. Maybe near the end she realizes that the male islanders desire her more than any of the slender females that also live there. I think this would be a far more interesting twist. It would also explain why she doesn't use her charms to her advantage in the beginning of the story.

I can't imagine a female character who is extremely intelligent, yet unable to understand others' preferences (and exploit them). This character sounds too much like an artificial construct to be human, and I doubt the player will be able to relate to her.

...Except that Milla Jovovich fits better with the anorexic coke-addict category you mentioned.

Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 06/03/2006 21:42:29
...Except that Milla Jovovich fits better with the anorexic coke-addict category you mentioned.

milla anorexic?  ???

QuoteThis character sounds too much like an artificial construct to be human

Christ, really? Man, it's doomed to stand out against all those other AGS games that are rich with fully-rounded and diverse characters, whose many layers of emotional depth continue to teach us how futile human existence really is.

*cough*

Its hard to reach a conclusive common ground when debating issues such as those raised in this thread. I don't think its as simple as "I'm against this" vs "I'm not against this".

But people have made clear where they stand.

I don't like the insinuations people have made that those who have come out in support of the image lack the ability to find fault in it, on moral grounds or otherwise.

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.

Therefore let me just say this:

Women are objectified.
Is it wrong? Sure.
Does it bother me? Not really.
Should I feel bad that it doesn't? Like hell.
Does it make me a bad person? Don't make me laugh.

Nobody's opinion holds more validity than the next man's.

Those who say "It's wrong, and if you don't see it then there's something wrong with you." get right up my nose.

Thank god for free speech, for it allows me to say this:

F*ck you...and the horse you rode in on.


EDIT: Yes I see the irony in self-censoring the word "F*ck". Very good. Thank you.

QuoteChrist, really? Man, it's doomed to stand out against all those other AGS games that are rich with fully-rounded and diverse characters, whose many layers of emotional depth continue to teach us how futile human existence really is.

It's not about a character having the same emotional depth as a human, it's about a character being believable in the narrative.

QuoteNobody's opinion holds more validity than the next man's.

Some opinions are more useful. All you seem to be doing is rehashing the same old "everyone's stupid for making this an issue/Objectification doesn't bother me". I think we get where you stand.

QuoteJust because I don't care

If you don't care, you should shut the fuck up.

If you do decide to keep posting here, you obviously care.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Mon 06/03/2006 21:57:32

Nobody's opinion holds more validity than the next man's.

Those who say "It's wrong, and if you don't see it then there's something wrong with you." get right up my nose.

Thank god for free speech, for it allows me to say this:

F*ck you...and the horse you rode in on.

ok... lets backtrack a bit, yeah no ones opinion holds any more validity then anyone else’s. but that includes you buster. what are you getting so heated up about? we, are, discussing, a PICTURE of a almost comically well provided, woman. its not real, its just a picture. so what gets the burr up your butt? You seem to be getting awful steamed, even more so then the exact other side of your argument, which is in the minority. ok, you have the right to get pissed off, but why? It seems as if you get an almost moral outrage at some peoples moral outrage. what’s the big deal its just a picture. nothing to act like a raging furbie about. ok, calm down deep breaths, count to ten. now think back, was that post the most mature way of saying you disagree with someone? step back and think about it.

Quote from: Mordalles on Mon 06/03/2006 21:48:20

Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 06/03/2006 21:42:29
...Except that Milla Jovovich fits better with the anorexic coke-addict category you mentioned.

milla anorexic?Ã,  ???

I bet you consider her plump, right? (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24484.msg308486#msg308486)

I believe we need a summary of the opinions presented in this thread if people actually care of this matter as an debate  rather than a vendetta where people change their opinions constantly to shoot others' comments down. It must be a very interesting topic since it beat Muhammed, but I have trouble following the train of thought here. As it is now, it seems that people contradict themselves constantly and we are running in circles, repeating arguments and yelling fuck yous.

Quote from: big brother on Mon 06/03/2006 22:05:26
If you don't care, you should shut the fuck up.

If you do decide to keep posting here, you obviously care.

I care because assholes like you keep faning the flames. Your apparent need to explain the reasons why we should see the wrong in this pisses me off.

Who are you to dictate what constitutes character?

Make YOUR games the YOU want to make them. Give YOUR characters what YOU decide they need.

Don't be so quick to apply YOUR beliefs, moral or otherwise, to somebody elses work. Its pointless and futile.

Do I tell you how something should be?

Believable in narrative? Are you writing this story? Its up to the makers to try and make it believable. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I'll wait until its finished to judge.

Quotewas that post the most mature way of saying you disagree with someone? step back and think about it.

Yes, let me step back a minute...Nope, makes no difference. Thank you for pointing it out and trying to correct me in the proper way to articulate my feelings, though. Much appreciated.

Zounds! LimpingFish, LimpingFish, you obviously  feel quite strongly about what you say. I agree, there are people who are fanning the flames of this now rather hateful thread, but you are one of them. You seem to be jumping to the defense of people who didn't ask for it. Unless you are one of the authors of this game, then my apologies. You are of course allowed your 2 cents worth, and more. But why so angry?

Because the thread is nothing more than personal attacks. If it was meant to make sense, the debate could have been orchestrated in an controlled fashion, like panel debates and closed long ago for people to make their own conclusions or at least been divided/restructured so it would not sidetrack everywhere. That said, it's still fun to read.

This thread is nothing more than personal attacks? What? Are you a stupid moron?

Eric

While I may be making a joke, I'm serious in asking what you mean by this being nothing more than personal attacks

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Mon 06/03/2006 20:07:59

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Thu 23/02/2006 13:08:38
I mean, you're not going to have an unattractive woman as your main character...

Quote from: Lemmy101 on my blog
So when we come to make a main character for our game. Are we going to go out of our way to make an unattractive woman with a flat chest, just to appease (admit it) a minority of people who may find it offensive?

OK, I take it back, I apologise. I had missed those two quotes before. I don't know if that was intended as a joke, I'll admit it doesn't really sound that way. Even as a joke it's obviously intended to piss people off and it explains a lot of the anger.
I don't think they need to apologise for or even defend the character drawings, but an explanation of what that was all about might be good.

That was phrased a little harsh, I'm sure there are lots of good points in here. And yes, I am a stupid moron for posting in this thread.

QuoteYou seem to be jumping to the defense of people who didn't ask for it.

They also didn't ask how to tell a story, or how to depict a character, but people still told them. Arrogance. Thats why I'm angry.

They asked "Do you find this vulgar?". I, among others, answered.

And here we are.

Thus is the nature of an internet chat forum!

The Nature Of Internet Chat Forums!?! Don't get me started... :-*

Quote from: LimpingFish on Mon 06/03/2006 22:56:14
They also didn't ask how to tell a story, or how to depict a character, but people still told them. Arrogance. Thats why I'm angry.

And here we are.

Yes and "here we are" but why, why is it arrogance to offer your opinion on something? Ã, Lets ask the authors, hey guys (or gals, its possible) did you you mean to be that literal? what is your opinion on the opinions offered?

I think they gave it, but it I'm to lazy to scroll back through the tread.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Mon 06/03/2006 23:08:18
I think they gave it, but it I'm to lazy to scroll back through the tread.

They did indeed.  lo_res_man, they've already answered your question:

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Mon 06/03/2006 12:17:50
Firstly, concerning stylistic implications - I have absolutely no intentions to modify the style of this character. While I appreciate everybody's opinions, decisions over style will be made by me and Lemmy. If I wanted critques, I would have posted the images in the critics lounge. If we were to adopt this approach to all the art in the game, then we'd never finish :)

What I was interested in was whether the image constitued being "vulgar" since if this was the case, then we may have had to re-think the graphics since it would have implications over uploading screenshots on other forums - we've already had issues on one site due to the large proportion on under 13 year olds who read it.

Not that I'm necessarily saying people shouldn't have shared their opinions, etc., but as far as the authors' intentions, they've already explained that, and yes, they apparently did "mean to be that literal".

Ok, my thanx Alun. They don't want to change it, people disagree, fine. They are the authors, and it is there choice. but LimpingFish, IMHO it is still no reason to fly off the handle like that. Its just a game. Now can we shake hands and make up ,and as I said much earlier, "agree to disagree"?

Sure  :).

Quote from: big brother on Mon 06/03/2006 22:05:26

QuoteChrist, really? Man, it's doomed to stand out against all those other AGS games that are rich with fully-rounded and diverse characters, whose many layers of emotional depth continue to teach us how futile human existence really is.

It's not about a character having the same emotional depth as a human, it's about a character being believable in the narrative.

QuoteNobody's opinion holds more validity than the next man's.

Some opinions are more useful. All you seem to be doing is rehashing the same old "everyone's stupid for making this an issue/Objectification doesn't bother me". I think we get where you stand.

QuoteJust because I don't care

If you don't care, you should shut the fuck up.

If you do decide to keep posting here, you obviously care.

'it isn't easy being the best'  do you have any idea how arrogant you come across? we never asked you to dissect our story. we post a picture out of context. people complain. we post the context even though we really didn't want to, just to show where we're coming from. people complain. then squinky starts dredging up old posts out of context and not in the manner they were intended. are we selling this game? do we deserve this? We've spent practically every second of our free time on this. we found this community and was so inspired by cj's commitment to this cause we wanted to make our own contribution. making a game that will probably take a year or two and giving it away. writing plugins
we were intending to release. we were even going to release all our art assets once the game was done so others could use them. what are were we asking in return? a bit of support. That's it.. we thought this was supposed to be a community where everyone would appreciate any contribution even if it wasn't their cup of tea. then we post a sodding picture of a woman with cleavage out and people are making judgements on us as people? calling up adolesants. That's not on. at all! limping fish you're bang on. big brother is more offensive than a pair of breasts could ever be. sorry about the long paragraph and bad grammar as i'm typing on my phone. too angry to wait till i have net access tomorrow. i speak for myself. this doesn't necessarily reflect the views of binky

Why not go back and read all the comments you ever got on the game posting you made and then the ones that you think are criticising you or the story or what have you. I bet there are more posts in support of the game than there are against the game. In fact I still believe that there is 1 person who is completely against the game and that person isn't even on these forums...

It's easy to take any negative comment and discard all the positive or neutral comments even though you have gotten much more of those.

hehe, i also think the "it's not easy being the best" is a bit arrogant. i was really surprised to see that.

Not trying to drag him into this again, but I agree with LimpingFish. I don't care if people don't like the game, and we're all free to give our opinions. I just get angry when people say a game -should- be a certain way, or when people make value judgements on the creators for drawing a pair of boobs, or anyone else for that matter (which is why I got fired up over your post, Andail, because I could very well be considered one of the people doing that whole "creating the image of the ideal woman" thing).

Let's not fight over whether we have a right to give opinions or opinions on opinions or not...

My personal opinion is that people should try to be more understanding of things like this. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't make it wrong. There are many ways to live in this world. I'm learning this more and more everyday.

Mordalles: Noone's ever gonna let you forget that thread, I think ^_^

I will not be understanding just for the sake of being understanding. My opinions still stand, and I'm not going to change them. I'm sorry that I find the appreciation of huge boobs to be so adolescent in nature, but I do. I can't help it. No one has ever given me a reasonable justification otherwise.

I do however, understand that it's difficult to receive criticism, especially after you've poured your heart and soul into a project. My game's undergoing beta testing at the moment, and it's certainly had its share of points criticized. In fact, I anticipate that there will be some bad reviews on adventure development sites once it's released to the public. I won't pretend that they won't hurt me; they will. But such is life. You just have to realise that you can't please everyone all the time.

Oh, damn! lo_res_man, you got the 300th post >_< My record is soiled! *sigh* If I hadn't been so careless as to sleep last night...

TIS: If your opinions still stand, then they still stand. You can't pretend to feel a way that you don't. I know you probably didn't mean it in this way, but I think it's nice not the have the stance that you won't change them though.

Also, it's probably true that noone has given you a reasonable justification for it. Probably because there isn't one, I don't know. People like them. It's probably difficult to understand that when you don't. I don't like ... (gimme a minute)...Ã,  (thinking...) ... aha! I don't like G-strings myself, but I understand that people do. I don't think they're being adolesent, I just think they happen to like them. They aren't trying to, they just do. So I can't have a problem with that, they aren't doing it on purpose. And it's not like it's wrong, it's just something I don't appreciate myself (in fact, I think they look awful).

Who knows though, maybe next week I'll suddenly like them! I used to hate pumpkin and mushrooms when I was a kid and now they're my favourite foods. That said, I've always hated licorice and I still do. That may change, it might not.

I understand disliking understanding for the sake of understanding, but I think it can be for the sake of peace too (not... world peace as such). I've found that as I've gotten older, things I used to hate and find wrong with the world, I can now accept as a part of it and I'm much happier and tolerant of other people for it. I used to have an idea in my head of a kind of "Utopia" but not anymore. I really only have broad ideas about an ideal way of living as far as things like the Environment are concerned. And they're very, very broad.

I've read the bit of backstory that is the setup of your game. I'm pretty sure it will make for funny and/or thought provoking situation in places. It *does* seem as if during this thread, whereas initially the artist for this project said stuff along the lines 'well I like boobs so this is why I animate boobs, lol!' now it's more of the 'oh just wait, there is a reason for the boobs and the outfit and and' which does seem supicious. Also may I just be the first to guess you've constructed an elaborate eugenic backstory for the main character which would explain why she is built like she is. In a lab, or something? Well... anyway, the fact of the matter is, regardless of whether it always were there, now you say there's a story that - I find interesting, at least - to back up the boobs. This is good, in my opinion.

Of course it creates issues about how a very intelligent and resourceful woman would desire to walk around in an outfit that barely covers her (not due to shame, but due to exposure to the elements. She's barefoot in a forest in the first gameplay screen you posted). One could say 'bah, helm, you're going too deep with the premise!'. No, no I'm not. This is the first, very shallow question that comes to mind: why barefoot, why not wearing a jacket and a pair of pants to protect from the cold? If I were the main character in this adventure game, I'd look for pants and boots pronto. That is, right after quitting everything else and inspecting my female physique off-screen for a prolonged... duration...

The only boots and jacket in the game are behind a door guarded by a man who wants a pinecone. So you need to get him a pinecone. It's an adventure game.

So let's say this main character goes around the whole game (re)questing for a fine leather jacket-pants-boots-validation for her existence aside from being an excuse for cheap T&A, yet never getting any such. Fine, that'd be both funny (until it grew old) and playing on both preconcieved notions about (adventure) computer games, and validating them to degrees.

Still, to take it a bit further, a smart person would steal clothes that fit her if given the chance, and regardless of shame would instinctively go for clothes that cover herself because we have biological memory that urges us to seek protection from the elements... I'm not making this up, it's true, people like to not be cold all the time.

Basically, it's an adventure game, sure. It doesn't have to be a silly adventure game full of adventure-game-things, though.

If it wasn't too cold and I had a body like hers, I'd kinda want to walk around wearing a tiny nurses uniform too.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 06:49:33I'm not making this up, it's true, people like to not be cold all the time.

Hey, speak for yourself; if it weren't for the social issues involved I'd like to go around naked pretty much all the time.  Then again, I don't get cold easy, and I live in Southern California, where it never really gets cold anyway, so...

Quote from: Kinoko on Tue 07/03/2006 08:13:29
If it wasn't too cold and I had a body like hers, I'd kinda want to walk around wearing a tiny nurses uniform too.

No, no you wouldn't. The idea appeals to you, but you wouldn't. A smart person realizes the practicality of clothing over skin pretty soon. I walk around semi-naked around the house all the time, weather-allowing or not, but I am not very smart, and I catch colds all the time. And even a silly person like me never goes hicking in the woods barefoot.

Er...you realize there are such people as nudists, who do go naked for long periods of time, including outdoors, and do perfectly fine, right?  I'm not trying to convert people to nudism or anything (I'm certainly not a nudist myself, due to the aforementioned social issues), but clothing isn't the health necessity you're making it out to be.

Quote from: big brother
I can't imagine a female character who is extremely intelligent, yet unable to understand others' preferences (and exploit them). This character sounds too much like an artificial construct to be human, and I doubt the player will be able to relate to her.

Oh for crying out loud. Most of the people on this thread have been positive, critical, but at least sensible about their opinions and reasons for liking / disliking the various off topic discussions on this thread. But this kind of arrogant "I'm better than you" dissassembly about our narrative, character choices, style, story, etc really gets up my nose. Exactly what justification do you have of making these kinds of dissmissive sweeping statements? People asked for our justifications of the character. We provided information that we were saving for a preview we have lined up in April. It is obviously not the full story, but it goes to prove that we have at least thought about the characters and story. Is it really too much to ask that you consider that it's just possible that the missing information may actually tie everything up? Or are you assuming that because you are "the best" that nobody else could possibly have come up with a nice tidy story that wraps everything up neatly?

And you know what? So what if we had just made this game as an excuse to get big breasts and a small nurse's outfit into the game. All we're trying to achieve here is add another game to the pot of amateur adventure games available FOR FREE on AGS. For the community by the community. We should be supportive of each and every game here - we all have jobs, there are other things we could be doing with our spare time.

I mean, Jesus Christ, there are some sprites in the Critics Lounge called "seducement animation". But again, who cares? Good luck to the bloke. Ideally, there'd be a game here for every potential demographic of game player - that way we could spread the word of AGS to the maximum possible number of people.

So like the game, don't like the game - see if I care, but don't come over all high and mighty because you regard yourself to be better than the rest of us.

Rant over.

Oh and...

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 05:33:50
whereas initially the artist for this project said stuff along the lines 'well I like boobs so this is why I animate boobs, lol!' now it's more of the 'oh just wait, there is a reason for the boobs and the outfit and and' which does seem supicious.

The stuff I said originally was said in jest as response to other people talking in jest. It was never relevant at the time to go into the actual details of the story, because nobody had an issue with it at the time.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 05:33:50
I've read the bit of backstory that is the setup of your game. I'm pretty sure it will make for funny and/or thought provoking situation in places. It *does* seem as if during this thread, whereas initially the artist for this project said stuff along the lines 'well I like boobs so this is why I animate boobs, lol!' now it's more of the 'oh just wait, there is a reason for the boobs and the outfit and and' which does seem supicious.

Post on Squinky's forum before this thread even started:
"At the end of the day, this is a fantasy game. And her particular look is justified somewhat within the game. As is the nurse's uniform."

Posts on this thread, all within a two days of it starting (and we only get to post during the day as neither of us have net access out of work)

" @MrColossal:
To clarify, ther is no particular reason why her boobs should be that exact size other than personal taste. There is a perfectly valid reason why she should be attractive, and in my efforts to draw "attractive" (to me, at least), I drew her with big boobs, so there is a "sort of" justification for them. We also wanted her to look different from the other female characters in the game. And the nurse's uniform is completely justified even though we could conceivably had made it a little larger."

"This has all been most interesting (and quite amusing). I'm afraid I may have confused things a little with my rather contradictory points on why she looks like that and how much/little this has to do with the story. This is basically because we've been trying to tread a line between how much of the story to give away and how much we justify the character."

"At the end of the day, we posted the screenshots when we had two final screenshots to show (the forum minimum). One of them just happened to be the main character, obviously a high priority on things to draw first, who happened to be somewhat "controversial", without the context to justify it. We didn't really consider the impact it would have, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't quite pleased with the interest it has generated. Smiley"

So where are these "lol boobzzz!!!!!!:D:D:D" comments?

If you're refering to the animating comments in the FE thread, jesums! I bet anyone could dredge up an old post against anyone to use against them. Everyone says stuff in jest. We were pleased to get our first comments about the game, we might have been more pleased if they were all saying "lovely art and interesting sounding story", but complimenting the boobs is still complimenting Binky's art. What do you suggest we said instead? "No, piss off! If you're only interested in the boobs we don't want you to download our game, pervert!"

See this is the problem, I don't think you even understand what objectification means. Or at least should mean in a society where people don't overreact over every little thing that might rub them up the wrong way, at least. We like boobs. So shoot us! Does liking boobs automatically make you a chauvanistic pig? Of course not, that's complete idiocy. Binky and myself were pleased that the art was evidently sound enough for people to make comments about her being "hot" and "having nice boobs". After all a blocky scribbly mess would not have attracted that attention, so we saw it as a compliment to Binky's art.

So what if Binky "enjoyed doing that particular animation"? Does enjoying doing an animation of a woman with boobs make someone a sexist idiot who would not give a better qualified woman a job over a man? Would someone who liked the idea of having a large breasted woman in a game automatically be the sort of person to make leud comments to a single mother on a train, or have a relationship with a woman purely because she has big breasts? No. Stop making judgements on what our motives are. Making assumptions and sullying our personalities on account of a 320x200 picture that, as we've stated REPEATEDLY, we have fully justified in the game. The WHOLE REASON WE POSTED THAT INFORMATION was because people were complaining that we were defending ourselves by saying "there is a reason" but not divulging it. So we post our reason, then you start picking holes in that, or accuse us of... well I can only imagine you're accusing us of changing our argument in the course of this thread. So add accusing us of being so fickle that we'd change a complete story, all the dialogue and overall theme of the game on account of a few people's disagreements about our motives? Thanks! All that hard work rewarded then.

How about we just post a screen by screen account of the whole damn game, will that allay your concerns about the sick perverts that have evidently joined your site? Or about the swizz cheese idiot story we've evidently constructed, because you can't see the whole picture from carefully divulged information. Better still, when it's done we can even download it for you and play it through. Sod it, we'll even review it! 9/10 It's great! There, you never even have to concern yourself with it again.

And if Squinky did get that seriously offended by our jokey comments on the FE thread that she went to the trouble of blogging about it, then I sincerely pity her. How she gets through life without being offended on a minute by minute basis is beyond me. It must make life a genuinely miserable experience... oh hang on a minute!

"I'm just going to smugly smirk at the fact that I made Gertrude Zzyrgenhymer completely flat-chested, and that the character wearing the least clothing in TGTTPOACS just so happens to be male."

You sexist bitch! How DARE you belittle our gender!

"All hypocrisy in my original post, by the way, was intentional and meant to be tongue-in-cheek. "

Oh that's alright then, you were joking Squinky, you are forgiven....

Hang on!!!! Anyone see the irony here????

This is f**king ridiculous.

I don't see how big brother is coming off high and mighty. We're discussing what we think is relevant to discuss. I agree with big brother that the premise is thin; it doesn't stop me from possibly enjoying your game when it's done and out, but it's thin, what can we say? Leasure Suit Larry games have ranged from paper-thin to cardboard-thin in 20 years or something. They've got their audience, they HAVE once or twice touched upon interesting subjects that people would consider outside their range, it's all good. Doesn't mean everyone's cut out for a larry game, and it doesn't mean those that are not cannot criticize them for what they are.

QuoteAnd you know what? So what if we had just made this game as an excuse to get big breasts and a small nurse's outfit into the game.

If this IS or WAS the case, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. But it doesn't mean we cannot scrutinize it and be critical of it and all that goes with open discussion on the internet! We are not stopping you from making the game, we are not stopping you from arguing about it, MOST people here probably will download, play, and enjoy your game regardless of the discussion. So what's the problem? Just as long as we get the facts straight about your intention (you guys are the ones that have us talking about your intention, it didn't start off on it's own) then various opinions will always be ok.

QuoteAll we're trying to achieve here is add another game to the pot of amateur adventure games available FOR FREE on AGS. For the community by the community. We should be supportive of each and every game here - we all have jobs, there are other things we could be doing with our spare time.

You misunderstand the concept of support. Support, for a free product such as your game, when it's done, entails people downloading, playing and if they like, spreading the word about it if they feel like it, and also telling you guys they liked it. This will happen of course. Support does NOT entail hushing out negative opinion about your game, nor does it entail blind acceptance of all aspects of it. If you guys can't deal with discussion on the game, then don't ask us to discuss it! Does this seem vulgar to me? No. But here are my thoughts about it. Does this seem vulgar to the other person? Yes. Here are her thoughts about it. Does it seem vulgar to third person? Third person finds the question wrong, here are his thoughts about it. This is how it goes.

So relax, don't attack big brother for having an opinion, and don't construe this discussion as either condemnation OR support for your game.

EDIT:

wow, don't 'pity' Squinky either, if you will. Seriously, relax, guys.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 10:53:50
If you guys can't deal with discussion on the game, then don't ask us to discuss it!

Sorry, but I don't recall asking for opinions on the game or story - only if the image constituted vulgarity.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 10:53:50
So relax, don't attack big brother for having an opinion, and don't construe this discussion as either condemnation OR support for your game.

I don't have a problem with him having opinions, or even expressing them. I do have a problem with the manner and tone in which they were expressed.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 10:53:50
I don't see how big brother is coming off high and mighty.

Big Brother comes across high and mighty in every single one of his posts, and this opinion LONG preceeds him making any comments directed at us. We were (at least I was) eagerly awaiting the inevitable time when that happened so we could tell him what we thought. Our friends who have browsed this forum since our game was announced, have even commented on the same thing with no prompting from us. He does unsolicited paintovers of people's work in the game in production thread, believes himself to be better than everyone in this forum. The name of their "studio" implies that they put more effort in than anyone else, and that they are the best.

I personally think it's sickening that in a free community, where people who may not have art skills, but love adventure games, put a lot of work into making a game regardless. Then this guy, who is, admittedly quite good, comes along and says "I'm better than you and I've put more effort in than you." How dare he???

Anyone who doesn't see that is willfully disregarding it.

I'm personally amazed that he isn't insanely unpopular in this forum. And in that same forum people can get so vocal about a pair of damn boobs. To be honest the fact that he struts around unopposed is half the reaosn I've got so annoyed about this thread.

So there, I've crossed that line into flaming, but I don't care. As you say, the people getting up in arms are the minority here. A minority I no longer care what they think.

Later! I'm not posting in this thread (or any other thread in this forum) again.

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Tue 07/03/2006 11:00:33

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 10:53:50
If you guys can't deal with discussion on the game, then don't ask us to discuss it!

Sorry, but I don't recall asking for opinions on the game or story - only if the image constituted vulgarity.

I'm sorry, you won't find people doing 'yes/no' type of answers on such topics in this forum. it's a very loaded question, it's not 'do you like my hair?' We like to discuss, much more when the topic is about sexuality, religion, politics, generally things everybody has strong (and arbiterate! whee!) opinions about. Anything posted in this thread is really fair game for discussion and critique. This is good, not bad, in my opinion. But if it doesn't suit you, I can only chalk this one up to not knowing what would happen. Now you know. This isn't a strictly moderated forum for off-topicness and the like, nor is content controlled according to what the thread starter desires.

QuoteI don't have a problem with him having opinions, or even expressing them. I do have a problem with the manner and tone in which they were expressed.

Sure, be my guest to discuss this, just as long as you're aware how silly ad hominems look.

QuoteBig Brother comes across high and mighty in every single one of his posts, and this opinion LONG preceeds him making any comments directed at us. We were (at least I was) eagerly awaiting the inevitable time when that happened so we could tell him what we thought. Our friends who have browsed this forum since our game was announced, have even commented on the same thing with no prompting from us. He does unsolicited paintovers of people's work in the game in production thread, believes himself to be better than everyone in this forum. The name of their studio implies that they put more effort in than anyone else, and that they are the best.

I won't play big brother's advocate for long. I do know he comes off high and mighty in some cases, I've seen it happen myself, I just didn't think this was one of these cases. I find your eager anticipation for a time where you could attack ridiculous and very mean-spirited. The name-of-studio-is-herculean thing impresses me with the inventiveness of the approach of attack. What can I say, you seem to have given this one a lot of thought.

Quote
I'm personally amazed that he isn't insanely unpopular in this forum. And in that same forum people can get so vocal about a pair of damn boobs. To be honest the fact that he struts around unopposed is half the reaosn I've got so annoyed about this thread.

Deal with it. Big bother's not my favourite person, nor do I care for Apprentice and Apprentice II very much, but the lack of attacking him, annoying you just paints a very warped picture. I don't see the relation, I just see a beef between you and big brother.

Good job on drama queening your exit from this forum.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 11:11:38
I'm sorry, you won't find people doing 'yes/no' type of answers on such topics in this forum. it's a very loaded question, it's not 'do you like my hair?' We like to discuss, much more when the topic is about sexuality, religion, politics, generally things everybody has strong (and arbiterate! whee!) opinions about. Anything posted in this thread is really fair game for discussion and critique.

Granted things go off topic, and I don't have a problem with discussing the general objectification of women, sexism in games generally etc. The problem was the assumptions about us, or our poor choices of character, or holes in our story. We feel that it makes sense. If people want to cast judgement on whether or not that is the case, then please at least wait until it is finished and you can judge it fairly. To call the character (not you specifically) a poor style choice is unfair given the limited information we had provided. When these kinds of comments are repeated and repeated and repeated, it gets a little annoying. I'm up for a discussion on the use of girls in games and whether it's good, bad, sexist, whatever. But lets not use OUR game as a platform to do that since it isn't finished and all the pertinent information is yet to be revealed. Let's use a finished game instead, and the discussion will have more merits.

(http://sylpher.com/novomestro/stuff/stopitjim.jpg)

Also:

I think you confused me and Helm, Binky... A few posts back you wrote a bunch of stuff "@mrcolossal" and it seemed to be directed at helm? Just wanted to say I don't want to be confused with yet another person in this thread.

Herculean Effort: You don't like people making value judgements based off of your use of large breasts and yet you can make them based off of a name two people chose for their game company?

Gosh, I'm calling my company Colossal Industries, does that mean I think my company is bigger and better than all the others or could it be... Just in fact...  A name?

You want boobs in the game, you put boobs in the game. As far as I remember I never said anything bad about you as people because there is a HUGE disconnect between liking boobs and being a stupid person, but I wish you stopped defending the game waaay back when since, as has been said by many people "It's your game."

People on these forums who say "You can't discuss this related topic in this thread because the starter never mentioned it" have a lot to learn about the AGS forums.

But I'll say it again, it's your game, make it and have a great time.

Eric

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 15:43:02
I think you confused me and Helm, Binky... A few posts back you wrote a bunch of stuff "@mrcolossal" and it seemed to be directed at helm? Just wanted to say I don't want to be confused with yet another person in this thread.

My appologies. Things have got a bit confusing on this thread!

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 15:43:02
Herculean Effort: You don't like people making value judgements based off of your use of large breasts and yet you can make them based off of a name two people chose for their game company?

Is this targetted at me or Lemmy (more confusion)? I didn't bring the name into it. The problem I had was things like this...

Quote from: big brother
Throwing in a skimpy outfit and tits (isn't nurse on the same level as cowgirl and cheerleader?) detracts from the player's suspension of disbelief.

and

Quote from: big brother
It would be more pointed if the story was set on a Polynesian island, where the men like their women big. The main character, instead of being unbelievably naive (to the point of not having a standard of beauty) could simply have a different standard of beauty than the males on the island. Let's say she's a little heavy, yet she considers the anoxeric coke-addicts in Vogue to be an ideal. She's used to being overlooked by the opposite sex, yet on this island she garners attention. At first maybe she thinks the men are mocking her, and the situation could be equally mysterious to the player. Maybe near the end she realizes that the male islanders desire her more than any of the slender females that also live there. I think this would be a far more interesting twist. It would also explain why she doesn't use her charms to her advantage in the beginning of the story.

I can't imagine a female character who is extremely intelligent, yet unable to understand others' preferences (and exploit them). This character sounds too much like an artificial construct to be human, and I doubt the player will be able to relate to her.

Because at the end of the day, it's our story and you'll have to take our word that it does work and fit. I don't particularly appreciate a verbal "paintover" of our story. I mean "a far more interesting twist"? Far more interesting that what? We haven't said anything about our "twist", so on what grounds can you say one is better than the other? Worded differently as an offshoot story, or "hey, wouldn't this be a cool premise for a game?" then fine. It probably would make a pretty good premise for an adventure. But you can't say that one is better than the other.

The only reason we kept defending our game, is because it kept getting brought into the discussion (as above). There seem to be two sets of people having two different discussions here. One of those discussions, I'm completely cool with.

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 15:43:02
But I'll say it again, it's your game, make it and have a great time.

Thanks! We will... :)

EDIT: Oh and by the way, I didn't mean "you" in a literally YOU sense. This is as confusing enough as it is!

EDIT AGAIN: I don't think the problem is with the name "Herculean Effort" as much as the strapline "It's not easy being the best". In my experience the best and most talented people tend to be the one's who'd never, EVER, claim it. So maybe it's ironic..?

Lemmy and Binky: I have stayed long enough away from this thread.

It's time I say a few things...

I suspect that after 340 posts it must've been mentioned somewhere but in case it hasn't: You do know that you brought this on yourselves, right? I mean the nurse is lovely and I have no problem with her outfit, the fact that she's a nurse or anything like big boobs. But there would be people that have problems. And you knew that. And still you posted.

You are sure to make the game the way you want to, no question about that! And that's only reasonable and fair. If there is anything in thee 340 posts that mae you change ideas, even better...

Do enjoy the game and do let us know when released. There are a lot of people that want to play it. And I honestly believe you when you say that there is a story underneath that boobs. Yes, I do and I will play it.

Lemmy: You know after saying that you will not repost in these forums again, I almost felt like saying something like :"Fuck off you bastard. What right do you have coming here and judging 3000 people (including me) just because BB spoke his mind?" But I didn't. And won't!. You do understand that you are overeacting hopefully... BB can be annoying and sometimes arrogant, but hey, why not? I can be awfull when mentioning certain things (kids, music blah blah...), Helm can be annoying al the time, esper can be atheist (rather antichristian), well BB can be arrogant (along with me probably and other memebers). You get to be the ones that drew the most beautifull sprite for ages now. Live with, enjoy it and hang around!

binky, don't listen to the others. it's your game and you have the right to put whatever you want into it.

Quote from: lemmy101 on Tue 07/03/2006 10:49:29
See this is the problem, I don't think you even understand what objectification means. Or at least should mean in a society where people don't overreact over every little thing that might rub them up the wrong way, at least. We like boobs. So shoot us! Does liking boobs automatically make you a chauvanistic pig? Of course not, that's complete idiocy. Binky and myself were pleased that the art was evidently sound enough for people to make comments about her being "hot" and "having nice boobs". After all a blocky scribbly mess would not have attracted that attention, so we saw it as a compliment to Binky's art.

I never accused anyone of being chauvinistic. (Adolescent, perhaps, but not chauvinistic.) What I have major problems with is the expectation that women in games and other media should be physically attractive, and that the same expectation does not exist (at least not to the same extent) for men.

Yes, I know that your character is strong and intelligent. Yes, I know she's attractive because it's part of the story. However, you did make your share of "we don't want an unattractive woman as our main character" comments and that part of the reason you designed her the way you did because you yourselves want to enjoy the way she looks. It doesn't matter whether you leer at large-breasted women or treat them like goddesses; the fact remains that society finds an attractive (by arbitrary standards) woman to be of higher worth than an unattractive one, and that in the creation of your character, you appear to perpetuate such thinking.

Quote from: lemmy101 on Tue 07/03/2006 10:49:29
And if Squinky did get that seriously offended by our jokey comments on the FE thread that she went to the trouble of blogging about it, then I sincerely pity her. How she gets through life without being offended on a minute by minute basis is beyond me.

It was honestly no trouble at all. My comments were probably just as jokey as yours were (though, as with all jokes, they're not completely based on fiction). Sometimes, I think you people are more offended than I am. Sheesh!

If it makes you feel better to think that I'm some sort of zealot who's offended by everything, though, then by all means, go ahead.

EDIT: By the way, I was just wondering, did you come up with the story before you came up with the character, or was it the other way around?

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger on Tue 07/03/2006 16:47:28
EDIT: By the way, I was just wondering, did you come up with the story before you came up with the character, or was it the other way around?

Would you honestly believe me if I told you?  ;D

CAN"T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!?
***
oh...wait I said the before, in some terrible topic it was a a..Nightmare! Ã, ::)
seriously, this game should be fun, but said makers of game, don't be so glum, we made a (lets scroll down down and...) !17! page topic all about your work. granted some of us have come across as high and mighty quite a few got angry, but guys, INMHO the topic is both too strict and the question too vague. this opened a whole can o' worms and you got a whole bunch of posts. its not the end of the world that not everybody liked your pic.Believe me I support you guys 1000% but believe me, this Ã, hardley went Ã, off topic. Ã, I once asked for help finding private eyey jazz and film noir music. and I got that, plus a 4 page heated discussion wether film noir was rasist or not. So its not the end of the world. make your game and hope to see it.

Quote from: lo_res_man on Tue 07/03/2006 17:22:02
its not the end of the world that not everybody liked your pic.Believe me I support you guys 1000% but believe me, this Ã, hardley went Ã, off topic. Ã, I once asked for help finding private eyey jazz and film noir music. and I got that, plus a 4 page heated discussion wether film noir was rasist or not. So its not the end of the world. make your game and hope to see it.

;D I guess at the end of the day, we're at fault because we haven't been registered to this site for long and just kind of registered and posted our game within about a week of each other. Perhaps if we'd come along sooner, gone to the newbie thread and said hello, got ourselves into a few heated discussions about random topics and THEN posted our game, we might have handled things a bit better. So a belated "Hello! I'm CaptainBinky!" to you all, sorry for the rants, and no offense taken (except from Big Brother).

(that last bit was a joke)

(...or was it?)

(no, it was)

?

;D

Quote from: Mordalles on Mon 06/03/2006 21:48:20
Milla anorexic?  ???

No. She's a fatty.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm joking.

Quote from: Haddas on Tue 07/03/2006 17:44:37
No. She's a fatty.

WOW!

Anyway I prefer the nurse over Milla! At least she won't kill me because while mistaken me for a zombie of some kind ;D

At least I like that we have gone from
"big breasts mean nothing special, they're just big and nice and we like it that way and we're not gonna change them and they can do no harm"
- along with a lot of kids who went "yay, go for it, we like big boobs"

to
"yeah we understand the impact and the symbolic meaning of stereotypes and objectification, but we have a ulterior motive and a point of satire".

Just make sure that the satire comes across in the end, lest it will not be a satire. Only if somebody understand satire can it be called satire.

Also I agree with TIS that the extreme fascination for unnaturally over-sized (and poorly covered) boobs is a bit adolescent. Just for the record.
Anyhow, the game seems more promising with some inside info. Good luck with it.

Quote from: lemmy101 on Tue 07/03/2006 11:02:36
He does unsolicited paintovers of people's work in the game in production thread

Wait, what? Are you talking about this:

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=23113.20

You make it sound like this is a regular habit of his. I think some people should be grateful that he takes the time to try to help people with paintovers (personally I like it whenever he does a paintover of something).

Quote
, believes himself to be better than everyone in this forum.

I guess I never got that memo.

QuoteThe name of their "studio" implies that they put more effort in than anyone else, and that they are the best.

Geez, it's just a name and a motto.

In fact consider Precision Sound (http://www.precisionsound.com), a well-known company. On the main page of their website it says "Take a quick tour of our site and discover why Precision Sound is your "ONE STOP" for all things multimedia." Pretty "arrogant", huh? This is only one example of many...

Quote
I personally think it's sickening that in a free community, where people who may not have art skills, but love adventure games, put a lot of work into making a game regardless. Then this guy, who is, admittedly quite good, comes along and says "I'm better than you and I've put more effort in than you." How dare he???

Tell me when he ever said "I'm better than you." When people post things in the CL, they are essentially asking for advice from others (usually from people with more experience, etc.). If he truly thought he was better than everyone else, why would he bother to stop and give helpful advice to others, including creating time-consuming paintovers?

Quote
I'm personally amazed that he isn't insanely unpopular in this forum.

Dude, Ian rocks. Get over it.

Quote
And in that same forum people can get so vocal about a pair of damn boobs. To be honest the fact that he struts around unopposed is half the reaosn I've got so annoyed about this thread.

You're obviously not understanding the point of this thread. Let me make you a little summary: it's not that it's vulgar, but that it's inappropriate to the context of the game.

Quote
So there, I've crossed that line into flaming, but I don't care. As you say, the people getting up in arms are the minority here. A minority I no longer care what they think.

Later! I'm not posting in this thread (or any other thread in this forum) again.

I'm a little confused as to why you're the one getting all up in arms. You're critiquing other people's opinions. So who's doing the unsolicited critique?

oh no...here we go again... :(

Quote from: Haddas on Tue 07/03/2006 17:44:37

Quote from: Mordalles on Mon 06/03/2006 21:48:20
Milla anorexic?Ã,  ???

No. She's a fatty.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm joking.

I already made that joke. Shut your face.

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Tue 07/03/2006 17:41:22
So a belated "Hello! I'm CaptainBinky!" to you all, sorry for the rants, and no offense taken (except from Big Brother).

Hello, CaptainBinky! (Love the name, by the way.) I'm The Inquisitive Stranger! I used to be Squinky, but then someone else became Squinky and suddenly I didn't feel so unique anymore.

For the record, I don't hate you, nor am I offended by you personally. It's society as a whole that offends me. ;D

society's ok once you get her a bit drunk

Quote from: Pesty on Tue 07/03/2006 19:08:25

Quote from: Haddas on Tue 07/03/2006 17:44:37

Quote from: Mordalles on Mon 06/03/2006 21:48:20
Milla anorexic?  ???

No. She's a fatty.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm joking.

I already made that joke. Shut your face.

Your jokes mean nothing to me. I am superior.

Haddas, do not talk to the woman. Talk to me. If you dare.

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 19:45:24
Haddas, do not talk to the woman. Talk to me. If you dare.

I dare not.

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 15:43:02
Also:
Gosh, I'm calling my company Colossal Industries, does that mean I think my company is bigger and better than all the others or could it be... Just in fact...Ã,  A name?

there's a difference between having a clever name and just blatantly calling yourself the best. their logo is very arrogant.Ã,  Ã, :P

Milla isn't fat nor plump nor anorexic. She's an athlete. And one day i'm going to marry her  ;D

If you honestly believe that, Mordalles I am very surprised and saddened...

My logo will be a robot stepping on the AGS community repeatedly then...

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 20:35:19
If you honestly believe that, Mordalles I am very surprised and saddened...

My logo will be a robot stepping on the AGS community repeatedly then...

i was saying that your logo, mrcolossal, is perfectly fine, but big brother's logo isn't.

Them doing a herculean effort does in NO WAY put the effort other people put in their games down. Where did you get that? One must have so many insecurities to infer theis one.

I agree, it's quite sad that you think that way Mordalles...

Making an AGS game is quite a hurculean effort because you have to do everything by yourself [luckily BB has Geof] and takes a long time and a LOT of work...

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 20:40:45
Them doing a herculean effort does in NO WAY put the effort other people put in their games down. Where did you get that? One must have so many insecurities to infer theis one.

whoever said anything about "herculean effort". i was talking about the "it's tough being the best" part.

do you wan't a hanky?

I do hope, Mordy, that you know that BBs and Geofs (only because BB is older is he first), company is named 'Herculean Efforts' and they have the logo "It's not easy being the best"...

For the record, for a long time I really thought that H.E. were the best! So impressed by Apprentice...

I just checked their website to finally get what you're talking about. It's not part of their logo, it's a motto, apparently, and a very arrogant one, I'll give you that.

Oh that! The little tag line? That is what this is all about... haha that's silly... It's a tag line, who cares?

Fine, my new tag line is "Colossal Industries: I am better than you." I highly doubt BB and Geof think they are better than everyone.

How about asking them!

Hey Big Brother and Geof, do you think you're the best, and if so, how difficult is it to be such?

Quote from: Geoffkhan on Tue 07/03/2006 18:22:02
Geez, it's just a name and a motto.

In fact consider Precision Sound (http://www.precisionsound.com), a well-known company. On the main page of their website it says "Take a quick tour of our site and discover why Precision Sound is your "ONE STOP" for all things multimedia." Pretty "arrogant", huh? This is only one example of many...

Hello sir. Before I say anything else, I'd just like to say that I think you're great. I've never seen you post anything that I haven't agreed with, or thought was arrogant or belittleing. I presume that you and Big Brother are related purely because of the "Big Brother" moniker and the co-working on your various projects (which I also think are great). I have an older brother and will leap to his defense if anybody, ANYBODY, critised him so (assuming the previous bit was accurate) I know where you're coming from. I don't think you are arrogant, but I think "it's not easy being the best" is. I have a hard time relating that strapline to your personality. They seem mutually exclusive. Please don't read any of my posts as an attack on you (although they may indirectly be via your connection to big brother and for that I appologise).

"ONE STOP" for all things multimedia."

Implies that there are lots of goodies on the site

"It's not easy being the best"

Is impossible to take as anything other than arrogant. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Quote from: Geoffkhan
You're obviously not understanding the point of this thread. Let me make you a little summary: it's not that it's vulgar, but that it's inappropriate to the context of the game.

The context of the game is not sufficiently known to possibly make that assumption.

Quote from: Geoffkhan
Dude, Ian rocks. Get over it.

I'm sure he is. The sprite art I've seen is excellent. I'm not saying that he isn't good, just arrogant.

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger
Hello, CaptainBinky! (Love the name, by the way.) I'm The Inquisitive Stranger! I used to be Squinky, but then someone else became Squinky and suddenly I didn't feel so unique anymore.

Hello Squinky. Love your name too. Squinky used to be my password on various things, but it was a bit too similar to Binky.

Quote from: The Inquisitive Stranger
For the record, I don't hate you, nor am I offended by you personally. It's society as a whole that offends me.

That's okay. All posts forgiven. Please forgive me too :)

Quote from: Helm on Tue 07/03/2006 20:50:35
Hey Big Brother and Geof, do you think you're the best, and if so, how difficult is it to be such?

Look they're geniuses Helm!

The Team
      The geniuses behind Herculean Effort Productions are Ian (design, concept art, 2D art, general janitorial services) and Greg "Gregor Samsa" Schlaepfer (scripting, music, 3D art, webmaster, janitorial assistance).

I'm having them come round to fix my toilet on friday.

Oooooon the other hand... I'd hardly advertise my own game by saying "Play my game! If you want. I'm not forcing you or anything. And it's just like 5 billion other adventure games."

Quote from: ManicMatt on Tue 07/03/2006 21:19:51
Oooooon the other hand... I'd hardly advertise my own game by saying "Play my game! If you want. I'm not forcing you or anything. And it's just like 5 billion other adventure games."

There are a million possible straplines you could use without claiming to be better than everybody else... or... just maybe... Herculean Effort Productions. With no strapline. See? Instantly improved.

Plus am I the only one noticing the problem here with one group of people saying that just because they have big boobs in their game doesn't make them adolescent but a tag line for another group of people makes them arrogant?

Now I'm not naming names here... Of course... But it seems like a wee bit of a problem for me

There are a million different ways to tell the story you have written without tig ol' bitties... Also

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 21:25:36
Plus am I the only one noticing the problem here with one group of people saying that just because they have big boobs in their game doesn't make them adolescent but a tag line for another group of people makes them arrogant?

;D I see exactly what you are saying. And you have an extremely good point. However, we have said we have justification for the look of the character. If there is justification for "it's not easy being the best", then it can only be that they actually ARE the best. And if that's true, then fair enough... EXCEPT... claiming to be the best is not a good thing to do. Be the best and let everybody else tell you you are the best. But never, EVER, claim it.

Or... It's a joke... Light hearted humourous statement? That's not a possible justification?

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 07/03/2006 21:30:50
Or... It's a joke... Light hearted humourous statement? That's not a possible justification?

...if they were shit, yes. It'd be genius.

However, I think I need to stop here. I've been complaining for ages that this thread constituted an attack on me and Lemmy, and now it's turning into an attack on Herculean Effort - and I'm a part of it.

This is extremely hypocritical, and I sincerely appologise.

Ah, hypocritical! That's what I was aiming for! You're making assumptions based on no information for the Herculean Effort tagline. Kinda like some thread I read recently! If I used emoticons this is where a smiley would go.

I'm very much glad you realize this because I didn't want this thread to go on for another 300 pages, however I'm sure when BB comes in to defend himself it will!

However I still disagree with you completely that one can't have talent and also make jokes unless they are self deprecating.

Yeah, the whole tone of our site is deathly serious... I don't see how anyone could see anything on that site as not being in earnest. A purposeful overstatement, what's that?

I bet you would complain about Maddox's website being labeled the "best in the universe", too.

Legally, superlatives like "best" do not have to be defended, since they're nonspecific. "Better", on the other hand, requires proof. Look at some of the slogans for local businesses in the yellow pages. Is it possible that more than one Italian restaurant can be "the best"? :)

So the HEP site is crappy, and our games are hopelessly outdated (and probably flawed) made by two amateurs (at the time) using a free engine and free graphics software. If you honestly interpret that slogan as us thinking we are "TEH BEST GAM3 MAKERZ IN TEH GALAXY", then

you are a douchebag.

Now let's stop talking about a stupid little tagline and focus on the real issue of importance: pixelated boobies and scanty nurse outfits. Demeaning to women or just gratuitous? Discuss amongst yourselves.

EDIT: Hahahaha, Eric. Totally called me. Damn.

From a global perspective, regarding all games ever made you are right.

However, you can't deny that the games that Herculean Effort have made are some of the nicest and most polished available on AGS. So it's the tagline in combination with that fact that the problem sets in. It just comes across wrong - in much the same way as my pixellated boobs do to you.

So I guess we're both hypocritical. But that was a compliment. Hello Big Brother, nice to meet you.

Er, I think I said I'd shut up now. I lied. But I will now :)

EDIT: Er, I don't actually have pixellated boobs. That'd be weird. I meant the picture.

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Tue 07/03/2006 21:15:30
That's okay. All posts forgiven. Please forgive me too :)

Will do.

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Tue 07/03/2006 21:46:28
However, you can't deny that the games that Herculean Effort have made are some of the nicest and most polished available on AGS. So it's the tagline in combination with that fact that the problem sets in. It just comes across wrong - in much the same way as my pixellated boobs do to you.

This sounds to me like it's less bb and geoff's problem and more a problem with yourself (and I'm addressing everyone who has a problem with their tagline, not just you). You see them as very talented people who made some nice games and so their tagline reflects arrogance because you assume they feel the same way about their games and skills as you do, when in reality I'm sure they don't think of themselves the same way at all. I highly doubt that they think of themselves as "the best", no matter if that's the best game makers in the universe or even just the best amateur adventure game makers.

Whether you take it that way or not, their tag line is a joke. It's self depreciating Ã, humor in a round-about way. Calling themselves "the best" makes it obvious that it's a joke and they do not, in fact, consider themselves the best.

Oh no, my post seems useful. I'd better remedy this:

EVERYBODY SHUT YOUR FAT FACES I'M SICK OF SEEING THIS THREAD.

Quote from: Pesty on Tue 07/03/2006 22:18:42
EVERYBODY SHUT YOUR FAT FACES I'M SICK OF SEEING THIS THREAD.

but this argument has not been won by binky, whom techically has already won. so i think that it's you whom should shut your pudgy face. HAHA!!!!! BOOBS PWNZERS!

Did you just say Boob Panzers?  If so, I need to see a game with Boob Panzers IMMEDIATELY.

Quote from: Pesty on Tue 07/03/2006 22:18:42
their tag line is a joke.

hahahahaahahahahahahaha.

binky, i have a question. how long did it take for you to get the breasts just right?

Quote from: CaptainBinky on Tue 07/03/2006 21:15:30
Hello sir. Before I say anything else, I'd just like to say that I think you're great. I've never seen you post anything that I haven't agreed with, or thought was arrogant or belittleing.

I'm flattered. :)

Though I usually try to steer clear of "debates" such as these, so I'm not sure there's much I post that could be "disagreed with" (unless you wish to disagree with tune entries, which I guess is valid). :)

Quote
I presume that you and Big Brother are related purely because of the "Big Brother" moniker and the co-working on your various projects (which I also think are great). I have an older brother and will leap to his defense if anybody, ANYBODY, critised him so (assuming the previous bit was accurate) I know where you're coming from.

This is true. Keep in mind that I've lived with Ian for most of my life, so I know him fairly well. He's a really nice guy. He bought me Broken Sword 1 for Christmas. He's patient when I'm lazy in working on games.

I understand how some of you could get a bad impression from some of his posts. But I get more of a sense of frustration rather than arrogance. I dunno, it's difficult to explain.

Quote
I don't think you are arrogant, but I think "it's not easy being the best" is. I have a hard time relating that strapline to your personality. They seem mutually exclusive. Please don't read any of my posts as an attack on you (although they may indirectly be via your connection to big brother and for that I appologise).

I honestly don't think that the strapline "it's not easy being the best" was intended to be taken seriously, just as it was not created in seriousness. I think the main point of the strapline was to have the "it's not easy", which is a reference to the "herculean effort", which is a reference to the whole Hercules holding up the earth in place of Atlas thing.

Quote
"ONE STOP" for all things multimedia."

Implies that there are lots of goodies on the site

"It's not easy being the best"

Is impossible to take as anything other than arrogant. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Yes there's a big difference. :)

But I think you're familiar with some other slogans with similar "attitudes." Like:

"The best a man can get" (Gillette razors)
"The Best never rest." (Ford Trucks)
"The Best Built Cars In The World" (Toyota) -- wooh, that puts our strapline to shame!
"America's Best Record" (Puritan Records)

Not to mention those cliched rural straplines saying something like "so-an-so's, the best cookies west of the Mississippi River"

Quote
The context of the game is not sufficiently known to possibly make that assumption.

Ah...

I'm not sure how to say this, but I get the impression that some people will play the game just because of the main character.

Unless the game is supposed to be LSL-like (which it could for all I know), I'm unsure how the game could be taken seriously.

Quote"The best a man can get" (Gillette razors)
"The Best never rest." (Ford Trucks)
"The Best Built Cars In The World" (Toyota) -- wooh, that puts our strapline to shame!
"America's Best Record" (Puritan Records)

Without heavying up the thread too much, a small point: this is exactly the sort of marketing approach AGS games DO NOT have to go with. Ford aren't doing this for fun. This is memetic terrorism. These taglines are repeated enough times, not because they're valid or invalid, that is inconsequential. They are repeated as much as possible just so they can be ingrained in the collective subconsciousness of the buying public by large. And not even because this will lead to better sales (although that's still the end goal) but because in such a way, they can be considered part of relevant pop culture. And a company, such a Pepsi or Nike, when it achieves that, when when people think of 'carbonated soda' or 'athletic ware' respectively they think their name, their logo, their tagline, such a company never dies. This is the point. You shouldn't, even in passing joviality adhere to this marketing attitude. A wonderful example of someone that has done a joke on the 'best game in the universe' is bspeers in his RON thread with the promotional video. He is very much aware of all I just said and approaches the 'I made the best game!1' deal with hilarious results - and great respect of how he must constantly undermine the validity of his own statement.

We are not bigshot companies. Do not ape the marketing strategy of bigshot companies. Do not tell me 'I did this because Ford did worse'. I detest Ford. You know and I know how Apprentice I and II were recieved by the AGS crowd, it's risky to say 'we are the best' when you have so many AGS awards and then go 'wha? huh? it was a joke! nobody got it?'

Quote from: Helm on Wed 08/03/2006 07:01:11
You know and I know how Apprentice I and II were recieved by the AGS crowd, it's risky to say 'we are the best' when you have so many AGS awards and then go 'wha? huh? it was a joke! nobody got it?'

Hmmm, you're right.

My attitude when it comes to creating games is to create something for other's enjoyment. The AGS awards were a pleasant way of letting us know our games were enjoyed--and I feel happy because of that, not about my own achievement but that other people were entertained for a few hours.

Carlsberg - "Probably the best beer in the world"

The qualifier [apart from the general ludicrousness of the claim] makes me laugh.

Slogans die out, new campaigns are made, agencies vie for accounts, but every company started somewhere. You can find the puffery on every level. Sales is more of an indirect goal than an adequate measurement. The business world isn't made up of faceless corporations, but a bunch of people. In my personal experience, the informed don't take it too seriously, especially in advertising. Sorry to jump on this off-topic, but I have a degree in advertising and business.

How many professional game companies have even heard of the AGS Awards? Don't take this community too seriously, Helm. As for Apprentice, that was like making a recipe that wins a town fair, then adopting the "best in the universe" slogan. You'd have to be pretty myopic to attribute that to arrogance. There's just too big a difference between those two realms.

QuoteYou'd have to be pretty myopic to attribute that to arrogance.

I'm sure you know that passively asserting what the other person has to be when there's dispairity of opinion is a great way to strawman your way onto making your sale. Since you've studied business and advertising and everything. Do you also know it's pretty insulting?

I've studied (and am close to getting my degree on) not taking shit and being cautious in my assumptions in equal parts, myself. It works great. Perhaps it would dispel such negative opinion about you being arrogant if you didn't persue such agressive selling tactics when talking with people. Just saying. Beyond character critique now, I will now address your points.

QuoteSlogans die out, new campaigns are made, agencies vie for accounts, but every company started somewhere. You can find the puffery on every level.

Oh sure you can. Is Herculean Effort one of these companies that want to 'start from somewhere' and end somewhere else, then? This justifies stupid mottos? One of the companies that in order to get there will need the 'puffery' you speak of? I find that a shame because there's so many exciting things people can do outside the mainstream, besides uh, breaking in the mainstream, using all the mainstream-methods.

QuoteSales is more of an indirect goal than an adequate measurement.

Yes.

QuoteThe business world isn't made up of faceless corporations, but a bunch of people.

Diverting. The business world is made up from models of financial enterprize. Looking at the people building block is dualistic and not at all what I was talking about. I am talking about the attitude of corporations and the tried and tested models of advertising you've gotten your degree on. I believe these models have no place in the AGS scene. Not even in an ironic usage, which I can however stomach if adequately funny, but much less in what you're sort of admitting here as being a legitimate business practise of a 'company that starts somewhere' to end somewhere else.

QuoteHow many professional game companies have even heard of the AGS Awards?

What does this mean?

QuoteDon't take this community too seriously, Helm.

I will take seriously what I find important. I find this is respectful and fitting. You?

QuoteAs for Apprentice, that was like making a recipe that wins a town fair, then adopting the "best in the universe" slogan.

Yes, think how arrogant and silly that would look.

QuoteThere's just too big a difference between those two realms.

I agree! How awkward would it be when small-timers adopt the methods of bigshot advertisers just because 'they have to start from somewhere'.

Quote from: Geoffkhan on Wed 08/03/2006 06:42:48
I'm not sure how to say this, but I get the impression that some people will play the game just because of the main character.

Unless the game is supposed to be LSL-like (which it could for all I know), I'm unsure how the game could be taken seriously.

I hope, I really hope, that anybody who plays the game will "get" the tone within the first few minutes of playing dispite their original assumptions about the character. Isn't this a bit like dismissing Akira as serious because it looks like a cartoon, and therefore for kiddies?

Nah, anime is seen differently in the Japanese culture than the way we might view cartoons. Anime is a vehicle for many different tones of expression and doesn't carry the same connotations the American cartoon does.
I mean, I think your players will adjust, but the initial reaction won't necessarily be consistent.

As far as Helm's post goes, I'm not going to argue about business with you. We have very different educations and viewpoints on it, and it'll just cause frustration on both sides. HEP is not a real company, sorry to disappoint (I don't know what this "start from somewhere " venom is about). I'll leave the slogan as a joke that you didn't get.

Perhaps the whole recipe example was a bad analogy. Maybe it's more like a big minnow in a puddle next to a sea of sharks. The minnow brags about its size, well aware of the sharks next door.

Wow, that sounds like something from a bad fortune cookie. :(

Quote from: big brother on Wed 08/03/2006 17:28:20
Nah, anime is seen differently in the Japanese culture than the way we might view cartoons. Anime is a vehicle for many different tones of expression and doesn't carry the same connotations the American cartoon does.

Okay, bad example (but it was only an example). What about Watership Down? It's a cartoon, therefore for kids, kids go see it and get freaked out. I'm not denying that people won't get the wrong impression from looking at that one screenshot IN ISOLATION, but in the same way as the poster for Watership Down featured a snared rabbit and therefore indicated some mature themes within, our story and hopefully the rest of the screenshots when finished will do the same for us.

(I hope).

I think that after sooo much off-topicisism (shit!) we can get back to the topic ofthe thread: BOOBIES!

I for one, have decided that I'll play the game, of course I will enjoy the main character (you could give us a name, you know, after 20 pages...) but there will definately be something more there for me to see and enjoy, apart from vulgar (lol) images.

Of course anyone can make up their own minds, and to be honest such a hot babe, is doomed to be looked at with suspicion from men, and with hatred from women.

HEY! Do you realise that the image you created has the same problems in the game as you have with her image in real life? Exactly the same! Noone takes you seriously becuase she looks like that! hehe. How ironic! I seriously hope that you are laughing your pants off...

On the matter of the HE moto, I actually don't get the joke really BB. But then again as I feel I know a little bit Greg, I can say that I see no evidence of arrogance in him. And I trust what he says and what he posts about his brother. Of course sometimes things can get out of hand (and they have), and it is very difficult to judge things on your own. I hope you understand that.

Aprat from that I was really really impressed with the moto "It's not easy being the best". Honestly impressed.

Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 08/03/2006 17:39:20
I for one, have decided that I'll play the game, of course I will enjoy the main character (you could give us a name, you know, after 20 pages...)

We haven't mentioned her name purely because she doesn't know it herself initially. However, me being an idiot... if you download the talkie images...

Quote
HEY! Do you realise that the image you created has the same problems in the game as you have with her image in real life? Exactly the same! Noone takes you seriously becuase she looks like that! hehe. How ironic! I seriously hope that you are laughing your pants off...

You're dead right. This is why we've been saying that we think that the look does work.

Who knew that such a large and heated discussion could arise from an argument pertaining to the mammary glands of a fictional example of a female Homo Sapiens?

Quote from: big brother on Wed 08/03/2006 15:55:41
I have a degree in advertising and business.

wow, you too, hey? if it wasn't for the arrogance and funny slogans, we would have had a lot in common.  :P  ;D

at least now we know how hard it is being the best... No one believes you and they think you're being arrogant...

I bet you people in this thread woulda sold out Jesus if* he were making AGS games!

Eric

*if?!

of course, if he was the best, we wouldn't be having this problem. hehehe.