POST - MITTENS

[Disco]

I can agree that Mittens might have been a little bit more interesting had there been less emphasis on drinking, but what can be done about it? I mean, all that really happened to me was a couple people made some critical comments about me whilst drunk, some of my things were kicked halfway across a site, and I was called a c**t. At least we weren't just sitting in the dark doing nothing.

I really don't want to make it a big deal about it because I love you guys, we had fun, and I already forgive the offenders for this, but can you see how people might be reluctant to spend $1062 (not being specific or anything) to cross the Atlantic (again, not specific) to spend time with consenting adults who had a bit too much to drink?

Also, sorry to Adamski, as he didn't spend that much money to get his posh sunglasses stepped on :'(

[Layabout]

As the one who instigated alot of the drinking, I would like a time to comment. I think it is a good thing if a group of people can have fun, good conversation and a bit of competative pool with a few drinks. It was never about just drinking. It was about spending time with good people. Personally I thought that having a few drinks loosened up those who were less inclined to talk.

Sure enough, some of us were a bit hungover when we went to the themepark, but we certainly werent informed that that was the next days event. If we had known, we would have gone to bed at a sensible time.

Sorry If you though there was an emphasis on alcohol. I don't believe there was. There was an emphasis on having a good time.

[Privateer Puddin']

I've never really been too keen on people drinking a lot at mittens/brittens/whatever but I can't do anything to stop them, so I choose to not go where there will be much drinking going on. Fine by me, but don't expect me to put up with you if you come back pissed

With the numbers attending these days, people do generally tend to split up a bit, just because it can be difficult to ~20 all in a circle to talk.

[Matt Goble]

I wouldn't say there was a huge issue with drinking, certainly less than Brittens last year where we did go through a LOT of alcohol.

On a few nights, I know a group of us went out to the early hours of the following morning (5:30, 6:30am) but for me, it certainly wasn't a marathon boozing session.  The fact of the matter was that it finally became cool in the evening and so you could go out socialising, with the emphasis on socialising.

If we stayed at the campsite, we either sat around the restaurant until we were yelled at, or we sat around on gravel until we got yelled at, the lights switched off & we pissed off the other campers.  21 people cannot keep quiet, even if they try.

Going out of an evening, meant having a seat, or standing around in groups, or having a few games of pool.  We didn't piss anyone off, we didn't make too much noise, we had a good time, a bit of dancing.  If people wanted to drink they did, but as adults if you drink too much, that's your fault.  If you just wanted a soft drink, that's your choice, and I did on a number of occaisons when I wanted a drink, but not something alcoholic.

Would it have been different if we had stayed at the campsite?  Did people not buy booze to drink at the campsite?  Would people not have gotten more pissed as the purchased booze would have been cheaper?

How do I see next year's Mittens?

A group of mates, sitting in a cabin, in comfort, chatting and joking and having a good time.  Some will drink, some will drink a lot, others will be happy with a glass of water, milk, pineapple juice, whatever.

21 people who are spending a week together are going to clash, go through cool spots, even say things they don't mean, because it's 21 people with their own wants and personalities.

For me, the biggest problem this year was communication.  Everyone has different expectations from these things, and want to do different things.  It is logistically impossible to please everyone.  I could say that some people should have been more considerate as what people wanted to do as a group. 

I think in future, people should & will split off into seperate groups to do their own thing, and this could be improved upon if times and dates are agreed as to when we all, as a group, meet up to enjoy everyone's company.

This year, a lack of communication meant that people were going off, and it wasn't known when they would get back, and people would wait, then get pissed off that they were waiting...

I think this year we reached pretty much farcical proportions on the last night, and at times over the week I did get pissed off because of the lack of communication and the lack of decision making.  Guys, most of you are smart enough to do some pretty amazing stuff, that I can never get my head around, but no-one can make a decision whether to go left or right at a junction in a theme park!!!

Did I have a good time?  Yes
Did I get annoyed / pissed off / frustrated at times?  Yes
Did it spoil things?  No

There is always going to be things to bitch about, and please voice those concerns here, because some of us are considerate enough to listen to them.  If I did anything to annoy anyone, PM me and we can discuss it.  I would urge everyone to do the same.

As Layabout says, the emphasis was on having a good time, which means socialising which can include going to places which serve drinks.  You don't have to drink alcohol, and everyone is adult enough to drink responsibly.

That's enough for now...

[AGA]

Almost everyone drank to some degree, and very few people actually got annoyingly drunk. Aside from a couple of people getting hungover and sleeping late (which I do naturally anyway, so...) due to late nights, this was really no different from any other Mittens. You're making far too much of a big deal about it. It didn't prevent us from doing anything we planned to.

Plus, as custard said, getting 20+ people all to participate in the same activity at the same time is pretty much impossible. This is just Mittens' evolution, and something you'll have to get used to...

EDIT: what Matt said.

[Adamski]

No worries, I don't want to make a big deal about this either because it's mostly incosiquential, but I do want to let people know my concerns. There was a greater emphasis on drinking than previous mittens, and CJs photos clearly show this It certainly didn't impact the enjoyment of Mittens to any great extent for me, but it does make me think twice about my future participation in these meets if the amount of drinking/drunkenness continues down the same path as this year. (Edit, especially if you're saying that this is what Mittens is evolving in to).

Edit: Actually, perhaps a large part of it was down to not having anywhere close that all of us could go and not annoy people. In Sweeden we were in a secluded location anyway (but there was also not much alcohol, but still an emphasis on fun) so there was no problem, in New York we had the lake to go to (and also not much alcohol), and in Greece we spent most nights on the beach. And there was more alcohol at the Greece meet, but only when we were together as a group. I guess if we had a similar situation in Benidorm there would have been less of a rift made by those that wanted to go to the same pub all the time and those that just wanted to enjoy each other's company.

[AGA]

Those that went out were enjoying each other's company too, you know...

[Grundislav]

Yes, let's look at the differences and you'll see that it really was a product of situation. (Using my own attendance as an example).

New York: At Eric's place we were in a secluded location, we had plenty of room, and there were only 13 of us, so we had lots of time to hang out and socialize.Ã,  We went out to a couple of bars one night and had a good time.Ã,  We had plenty of other things to do to socialize.

Greece: Another semi-secluded location, with the AGS Lounge and a large expanse of beach available to us every night.Ã,  This time there were 18 people.Ã,  We had more to drink, sure, but nobody got ridiculously drunk, (except maybe AGA but that was more amusing than anything else).Ã,  Fun was still had by all.

Benidorm: In the middle of a big tourist city.Ã,  There were 21 people.Ã,  The campsite was not a good place for us all to sit due to the lack of light and chairs.Ã,  Some attendees were more prone to go out and drink than others, but that will always be the case.Ã, 

I think Matt made a lot of very good points.Ã,  I'm sorry that there was a feeling of separation, but those of us that did go out most nights didn't in fact go out with the intention of drinking to the point of passing out, we were just going to have some fun and a good time with friends.Ã,  Personally I knew my limits, and once I figured I'd had enough booze I just stopped and continued enjoying the company.

One thing I noticed was the motive behind the desire to go to the secluded beach.Ã,  Someone said it was "a lot like Greece" and the general feeling was that the nostalgia of Greece wanted to be captured.Ã,  I understand this desire, but personally, I think each place Mittens is held should be experienced for what it is, and not trying to recreate Mittens past.Ã,  Then again, I could be wrong, and it was just a mutual desire to get away from the campsite.

So like Matt said, if I did anything to offend anyone please let me know via PM, but as far as I could tell we didn't come back to the campsite making an obscene amount of noise or waking everyone up.Ã,  Come next Mittens, if there is alcohol I will most likely have it, but obviously if we're sitting around in good company in a lodge, the amount had will differ than if we were all doing a pub crawl around Calgary.

On a lighter note, here's Melt the Limit 2!
http://www.grundislavgames.com/mittens06/videos/mtl2.wmv

[m0ds]

Melt The Limit 2 - awesome movie, Grundislav!!! Touching in a very strange kind of way! Though, a little weak on the plot...

One thing I noticed was the motive behind the desire to go to the secluded beach.Ã,  Someone said it was "a lot like Greece" and the general feeling was that the nostalgia of Greece wanted to be captured.Ã,  I understand this desire, but personally, I think each place Mittens is held should be experienced for what it is, and not trying to recreate Mittens past.Ã,  Then again, I could be wrong, and it was just a mutual desire to get away from the campsite.

I think the more important factor here was that it was going to be our last full night together at Mittens, and it obviously couldn't be spent in the campsite, by the pool or the Raco bar - and it would have probably been the best oppurtunity for all 21 of us to sit around and have a good old games discussion. But for some reason, people felt curry was more important. Fair enough - but there's always time to eat, and we're grown men (and women) - you don't need food ALL the time. Anyway. I say you that didn't go probably did miss out. There was little to no drinking that night, followed by some hefty adventure game discussions, which certainly had me engrossed. Maybe you had a similar time at the curry house or whatnot.

In regards to the drinking, as everyone has said in its defence - it was a matter of circumstance. I was able to drink, have a good time and really enjoy chatting with the people I shared drunk and sober nights with. In actual fact, when out in the bars in Benidorm - we had just as good a conversations as those at the campsite. And if we weren't at the campsite, we were at a water park, theme park etc - and I certainly didn't miss any of those. I didn't even miss Nacho's early morning bike ride. No-one complained about being hung-over even if they were, so I really can't see in anyway how those that drank upset or bothered the others. Mittens will get rowdier (sp) because we know each other more. Maybe in your normal circle of friends you sit in silence, twiddle your thumbs, play the PS2 and then talk about the game you just played. In mine, we don't do that at all. We go out, we do stuff, we take the piss out of each other because it's funny - yet we understand we still totally appreciate each others company.

This leads me to some confussion. What is it you want from Mittens, Adam? You yourself can see that things become more difficult as the group gets larger. I too wanted to spend most of the time in ONE BIG GROUP where we could ALL discuss. This was impossible, which was a shame. There was always a split up to two groups. The Helm group, and the non-Helm group. And that frankly pisses me off, because I too want to listen to Helm but I don't want to leave other people out. SO of course, I don't want to be split up and I don't "want" to go and get ratarsed, but I know any decent, full group conversation will be problematic because of the size of the group. Anyway On the way back we discussed tightening the numbers to a max of 15 or 20, but realised that would lead to problems because the majority of us there bar 3 this year, were former attendees.

Despite having all these thoughts, I still don't really care - because I had a fantastic time, met some fantastic people and caught up with others - enjoyed every waking and sleeping minute of the event and felt our Spanish hosts did an amazing job. Mittens is what you make it, so make it what you want. I did, and it worked fine for me.

[Nacho]

Shit, I posted a large reply, but it got deleted... :/

Anyway, as a host, sorry, I feel resposible, but we had to try this urban experience. For me it was ok, at the same level of the previous, but how mittens went is something very presonal. I can't talk by anyone.

I felt also a bit of this feeling of "separation". But it didn't annoyed me. I don't like the smokey dark clubs, I've never been in one for ages, but it was ok for me if the others wanted to go.

I know that the non drinkers can suffer a bit of annoyance for those with hangovers. They feel that they are missing the fun because the drinkers can't follow their pace, and just because they are weak and they can't handle with a "horrible vicious". I felt that with another group of friends. But, to be honest, only 4 of a possible amount of 42 (21 mitteners X 2 days) were not ok for the days of the theme and the water park. Only one missed the date. Not a bad record. With such a big group, I would have expected a KIA in one of the days by influenza or a cold... Not bad. Also, theme parks and water parks are places to be walked in smalls groups, I think... You just can't keep a group of more than 20 people together, IMO.

About the "night in the secret beach"... It was ok. The group of 8 who went to the beach would have been at the campsite, sleeping, and the other would have gone to pubs. There was not a bigger sepparation that the one there could have happened without the sleeping in the beach, if you think it...

So: The amount of alcohol is rising, and this years all the astronomical bodies have conspirated to make it even more visible... But I don't really felt like something terrible happened. Next year it will be totally different. I guess it will be more like in Greece, with just one night of wild booze, and everyone will be more involved in it. Even the non drinkers will be amused somehow, because they will know that our weakness won't slow down the fun for all the rest of the event.

Conclussion: A mix of solidarity with those who drink, and those who do not. I drink a bit, and I can move into the two groups, I think I managed to be into all the activities of mittens, even in a "little wild" party, not the big ones which came after... Ã, 

So, again, sorry, and keep my promise that next year will probably be different.

[Helm]

Consenting adults can do as they like, AGA. I'd just like to know a bit in advance if Mittens is going to go from a bunch of friendly mitteneers engaged in group fun and activities, to a group of singular concenting adults, only aligning their individual destinies for enough time to decide in which pub they'll go next. I am not saying it was that this year, but if it's going to get closer and closer, I do not really care to participate as much. I can see as many drunk people as I want here.

This years mittens was nice, I was more annoyed by bad service than the drinking, but that's an issue too. I discuss this here and not in Mittens because I didn't want to spoil the mood and get into arguments. I am not telling you what to do. I DID tell you what to do when I was hosting, and my opinion was 'no excessive drinking, no drug use' and when you Berian, got drunk and poked me with a bottle I didn't complain or call you on it because it was an isolated incident and I am not your mother, and because it was funny. But if it's going to be more and more drunk people which I'll have to deal with drunk-gloves on, it will become taxing. When people, half-drunk, get up in your face, while you've had a really really rough night and urge you to fight them, you know the drinking isn't helping.

The Helm group, and the non-Helm group.

I understand what you mean, but I want you to know I am not encouraging any 'schism' in the group. I just don't like to drink a lot and a night out in town at pubs at wet-shirt contests and karaoke (which, as a Greek I suspect I will never understand the appeal of) does not excite me. If other people would rather not do that as well, here's your two groups, Helm influence notwithstanding. This being said, and while the night wasn't good for me, I did follow you to a pub and I did have my Guinness with Grundy and the rest of you and I tried to play along. Maybe it'll be best if everybody comes half-way in their social desires, and the social desires of others in attendance of Mittens.

The bigger the group gets, and the more lack of Andailism to push us towards specific activities, the more there'll be splinters and people just going off doing their own thing. This could be avoided, simply enough, by Mittens being far away from civilization, for one. Then people extending some courtesy in what they're used to doing, while in Mittens. You can be a drunkard all you want in real life, but Mittens you should make an effort to be sober. I suffer from short bursts of numbing depression, in real life. I am not a predominantly happy guy. It happens in Mittens, as everywhere else, and when situations arise that push me even more, it's difficult to maintain a healthy 'HELLO, I AM HEEELM' attitude at all times, but I try, 'cause it's Mittens. People should try to be their best because other people paid 1,000 dollars to come meet them.

[Adamski]

This leads me to some confussion. What is it you want from Mittens, Adam? You yourself can see that things become more difficult as the group gets larger.

Don't let me mislead you into thinking that I didn't get what I wanted from Mittens this year, which was to have a great time! I did enjoy it, and I'd do the whole thing over again - horrible journey included - in the blink of an eye! Things are surely going to be difficult when there are 21 people with nowhere to go to be loud and Mittensy, but we coped. The issue that I have is the atmosphere that came through the much higher ratio of drunk-to-sober moments than previous Mittens - and as I've said it was not detremential to my overall enjoyment of the event, but it was apparent to me and several others enough to want to raise the point. 

[Matt Goble]

Right, before we go any further, I want to make one thing clear which I believe no-one will disagree with me on:

Nacho did an amazing job organising this year's Mittens.  He sorted out a good location, with good facilities.  He organised great days out and ensured there was discount so it didn't cost as much as it should / could.  He did everything possible to make everyone welcome, and did his very best to try an accomodate everyone.

As I said earlier, the sad fact is that there will always be people who will want their way all the time, and not be willing to compromise for the benefit of everyone else.

Normally I'm really bad at posting photos, mainly because I'm too bone idle and can't get the hang of these web albumthings, but below is a link to this year's photo's although at quite a low res:

http://mattgoble.com/AGS/Photos/Mittens_2006/index.htm

I don't take my camera out of an evening, because a)It's big a crap b)I don't want to loose it.  As such, this is what we got up to IN THE DAY, and WITHOUT ALCOHOL.

Let's not forget it's a f***ing holiday which we all had a great time on.  If people have a problem with the fact that there's is going to be alcohol drinking the perhaps Mittens isn't for them anymore, because quite frankly if I'm on holiday, I want to have a relaxing drink, and have a good time and not have to worry if it's my first or third beer of the day.  I'M ON F***ING HOLIDAY.

If people are dumb enough to get drunk and then suffer the next day from a hangover then more fool them , cos they'll miss out on the fun of the next day.  If people disrupt other people's enjoyment because of their drunken antics, then they you be given a good slap for being inconsiderate.  By the same token, if people are going to huff and pout because 20 other people are not doing what they want to do, then they also need a good slap for being inconsiderate.  The door swings both ways.

Yes, we all meet up because of AGS, but quite frankly I don't want to spend the whole time talking about games.  I want to talk about life, universe and everything with people.  I like to hear what Goldmund, Domminka, Helm etc think of the world, what their favourite movies are and the like.  I like to hear about Petteri's new course.  I like to hear about Grundislav's life, and the adventures he's had.  I like to hear about CJ's new flat.  And if you do these things in a restaurant, a bar, a club, on some dirt at the campsite, I don't care, but some options are more comfortable than others!

Interesting that Helm mentions Andail in his post.  When some of us went down to Brighton this year, Andail organised a couple of good party games, and then he and a bunch of the group went to a club until early o'clock.  No-one came back stupid drunk, so maybe there is an Andail influence even in drinking establishments...

I too, will never do karaoke, but Grundislav was bloody good!

Please enjoy the photos 

[m0ds]

I want you to know I am not encouraging any 'schism' in the group. I just don't like to drink a lot and a night out in town at pubs at wet-shirt contests and karaoke (which, as a Greek I suspect I will never understand the appeal of) does not excite me.

Well that's cool, and I respect & understand that you are not - and I think all the other drinkers respect that, just as you and the non-drinkers respect that we were going to enjoy going out and having a drink. Not necessarily more than the alternative, but there really were not many other options - or moreso - suggestions for other things to do. I was surprised there was no Mittolympics this year, and what surprises me more is that out of 21 of us did it really need an Andail to make such a thing happen? It was a great shame he couldn't go because I do love the games he conjures up, but would he too have faced problems with our location and come out drinking instead? Who knows

[Nacho]

Keeping consistent a group of more than 20 people is impossible. Look, I am spanish, and Helm is greek. We ares mediterranean!!! We wake up late, we have lunch late and dinner also late. So, when people whose countries with less sunlight go to have dinner at 1900, we ain't really hungry.

But Helm allways came, with no complains, to have just a dessert, or even a pint of Guinness. He did not drink a drop of alcohol in Greece... But here, he did. His sentence was allways the same: "phew, I don't want to... but I'll go to socialise".

I really appreciate the effort.

So, if someone feels that there was a "Helm group", he/she, should reconsider. It's true that there was a group formed by Blazed and wife, Nacho and wife, and Helm, but it's somehow logical because there has been something special with Helm, Blazed, Petter and me since Sweden. There is also a group made by british and nobody blames it to be the "Chris' Ã, group"! Ã,  Anyway, some people occassionally joins the group (Chrille, M0ds, Quintaros...) I don't feel that the "group" is exclusive, everyone is invited. As an example, as for the "night in the beach" thingie, Adam has told me that he would have probably come if he had the equipment. Inga was not feeling 100% because of the medication, but I think I am right if I consider her closer to this group than to the "curry group". So... with a slight change of variables, we could be talking that the beach group could have been formed by 11 members, while the "curry" one, by 10. So... it was not really a group of "disidents", but just a a split of an original bigger group, no?

Anyway, talking of splits, "disidenties" and bad stories would make the outer witness think that this has been really awfull... Ã,  Ã, I think we should make clear that there are not bad feelings, and that everything has been 99% perfect except this small issues we're discussing now, no?

EDIT:

Nacho did an amazing job organising this year's Mittens.  He sorted out a good location, with good facilities.  He organised great days out and ensured there was discount so it didn't cost as much as it should / could.  He did everything possible to make everyone welcome, and did his very best to try an accomodate everyone.

Matt... And Lorena!!!  She also exist, she is a member, and she got the discounts alone... 

[m0ds]

To be honest Nacho, I don't think anyone had any problems with the proceedings of this years events at all, except one, and he has now re-assured that the drinking factor was not even a problem for him this year, but that if it increasesd in the future - it could put himself and others off - which is understandable.

So really, there is nothing left to discuss other than how brilliant Mittens was!

[Matt Goble]

Anyway, talking of splits, "disidenties" and bad stories would make the outer witness think that this has been really awfull...    I think we should make clear that there are not bad feelings, and that everything has been 99% perfect except this small issues we're discussing now, no?

No, no Nacho, it was truly awful 

Everyone had a great time.  I didn't get burnt, now own a great hat, and have stopped making bad smells due to a lovely curry (thankyou curry).

Grundislav, MTL2 is amazing, better than some of the crap I see day in, day out.  Drop me a PM and we can sort out the best way to include a DVD version on next year's annual.

[Grundislav]

Melt the Limit 2 (As well as 1) wouldn't have been possible without everyone's awesome participation.  I'm just the schmuck holding the camera and trying to make some sense out of all the great stuff you guys did.

Looking forward to making Melt the Limit 3: You're All Chairs!

[MrColossal]

I just want to quickly say, having read this thread and talked to DS...

I share DS's concerns and want to reiterate to the people who feel they need to defend their actions against DS's post. He didn't say "SHAME ON YOU! HOW DARE YOU!" he said "This is something that was on my mind, want to talk about it?"

He didn't say "MITTENS WAS RUINED!!!" he said "This is a concern I have."

He also said "I loved my time at Mittens." I feel that some of the people trying to defend their actions are ramping up the issue with their choice of words.

That is all

Eric

Oh also, DS said "I HATE SPANISH PEOPLE!" But that's mostly subtext

[Helm]

Nacho, thank you for organizing Mittens. I enjoyed my time there. The complains do not mean I didn't, and a good sense of perspective should be applied to realize my issues with the organizing were very minor ones and didn't stop me from having a good time.

Matt: you are on holiday. I am on holiday. We're all on holiday. If we're going to have holidays together, we should all come half-way in what we want to do. "giving a good slap for being inconsiderate" to people isn't as easy a process as you make it sound like. I'd rather people took special care on their own. I don't act in Mittens as if I'm with my mates back home, stupid or silly and they'll sort me out if I go out of line, as my mates back home didn't pay 1,000 to be in my company that night.

You say you'd like to hear about all the other wonderful stuff people talk of in mittens besides AGS stuff. Well that always happens, as far as I can tell. Being drunk or not drunk has nothing to do with this. Let's not make a strawman out of the argument, it was never either GET DRUNK vs. TALK ABOUT AGS.