A loving criticism of the AGS community and its output

[Kweepa]

I see where you're coming from. You don't seem to have a good idea how to get where you want to go. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you don't seem too eager to discuss it.

Games which express an awareness of their form and a desire to play with and explore that. Machinarium would be a very light example. Or what VVVVVV did with platformers.

I wouldn't call either of these games deconstructions. Machinarium is a simple puzzle game with some very annoying traditional puzzles. Looks nice though.
VVVVVV is explicitly platform-game-classical. It just adds a new mechanic and tries to explore what you can do, gameplay-wise, with it. Exactly what Nintendo would do.
Here are some games that experiment and stretch: What Linus Bruckman Sees When His Eyes Are Closed, Eternally Us, Richard Longhurst And The Box That Ate Time.

Do we have to learn Byzantine perspective, for example, before being allowed to draw without it?

Duh. Perspective (and proportion, shading, etc) are taught to allow the artist to represent the real world to whatever level of accuracy they require. It's not about being allowed to draw without it, but rather the opposite. Byzantine perspective is not part of that.

Linear perspective is really just one approach. Using it is fine, if you actually want it. But seeing it as the only way or even the default is lazy.

!
Seeing it as the default is sanity. It's the result of the renaissance, the acceptance of observation as the key to science and truth.

But that's a different discussion, because most of the time the recipient of the perspective/proportion/shading/colour advice here on the forums appreciates it and was implicitly (or explicitly) seeking it.

[uoou]

a

[Chicky]

Aww man, two page CL post and no pictures D:

[Scavenger]

I'll answer this one, since I know of it.

I think that 'can't break the rules till you know them' thing is an oft-repeated-in-art-schools fallacy (or probably more accurately an oversimplification).

There must be rules - there must be a cohesive conceptual structure to what you're doing with space and all that - but it needn't be any particular set of rules. What about the 30k years of art before linear perspective was (re)discovered? Is that just shit? Or the folk art which never adopted it?

Do we have to learn Byzantine perspective, for example, before being allowed to draw without it?

Linear perspective is really just one approach. Using it is fine, if you actually want it. But seeing it as the only way or even the default is lazy.

(same appies to all the other stuff, colour, proportion etc., I'm just using perspective to illustrate)

Byzantine perspective is a trick, it isn't how our eyes see things. I don't see how learning that before learning anything else helps in the slightest.

Linear perspective is a good way to approximate what our eyes really see. It gives a sense of space and form. You learn how to make things realistic before you learn anything else. Just like you learn how to write a convincing character before you write an alien.

You learn how light and shadow works before you can twist that around.

You learn how proportion works so you can caricature.

I mean, you could apply it to science. "Atoms! Pah! What an assumption! Atoms only came in the last 100 years, and now they're probability waves! And they might not even exist! Let's ignore it entirely and focus on the four classical elements, which were around a lot longer! Not to mention radiation. Can't even see that. It's all fire! Fire and air! Let's not assume that science has made progress in accuracy. We can do whatever we want."

Do you know anything about the production of art?

It isn't some nebulous "You can dream anything!" thing right off the bat, nor has it ever been. You still got to know how everything works before you can articulate those dreams.

[uoou]

a

[Calin Leafshade]

playing a game like this would certainly be interesting

http://vimeo.com/12518619

[uoou]

a

[Igor Hardy]

playing a game like this would certainly be interesting

http://vimeo.com/12518619

Meh, that's just exactly like usual. Only reversed.

This one on the other hand, would make a great adventure game:

http://vimeo.com/2602084

[LRH]

I've actually read this entire thread, I'm proud of myself.

Anyways--

I'd like to make another point, if I could. I agree with Snarky when it comes to producing something that reflect your own tastes. Making games, at least for me, is not my primary form of expressing myself. I make games because I think it's fun to make them, not because I'm looking to do something new and profound in this medium. I do not consider it a waste, because I enjoy the process and enjoy sharing the finished product with people.

To this day, my favorite production of my own was my deluxe version of the first AGS game I had ever made. It was fairly poorly received in terms of gameplay, since everyone thought the the puzzles were too outlandish. That's not really important though. I love it for what it is, and, while the quality isn't all there, I was thrilled with how much it marked my improvement in my use of AGS, and how well the atmosphere expressed the emotions. All the while, as far as adventure games go, it's as standard as it gets.

[theo]

[Knox]

I just created a new avant-garde game. Count all the "e"'s in this post and think about cabbage. Now dont tell anyone and go eat some cantaloupe while wearing nothing but a helmet made of butter and non-sense.

Critique.

[Khris]

Yes. You've learned one system. Now, before you can make an informed choice rather than telling everyone to use linear perspective and renaissance ideas of proportion and colour theory and so on for everything regardless of how apposite it may or may not be, you need to go an learn about all the other choices before you can make an informed decision. I'm glad you understand now.

Linear perspective is how the human eye sees the world. So unless you're using some artsy collage style or 2D or whatever, linear perspective is the default everything eventually comes down to.

And obviously, precisely because of that, backgrounds where it is obvious the creator didn't follow perspective rules (yes, rules) look so horribly off.

Here's a prime example (sorry barefoot):

Look at the height of doors.
And the carpet looks like a hole in the floor.

That's an easy fix which will improve the background greatly. Are we supposed not to mention that in the one place that's exactly about fixing errors like that?


Also, please enlighten us about all the other systems of proportion, color theory and perspective. (You sound almost like an evolution denier demanding equal time for alternatives.)

[Babar]

I kinda see uoou's point, and that background is a perfect example of it

I quite LIKE how it looks
And how barefoot's backgrounds in the game s/he is making look. They may be "perspectively wrong", but at least they're all consistently wrong in the same way , and gives a very interesting effect. I hope it won't be changed.


I've seen many AGS games with great background art, great music, great "writing", but they were as stale and boring for me as it could get, and so formulaic, you could even see the "twists" from a mile off. And the problem is, as uoou says, the actual "concept" behind the game, the "idea" itself, receives the least attention, so even at the production stage, when all that exists is a short story blurb (that is perhaps slightly interesting), some very pretty graphics, and maybe a song or two, these games are lauded for being the next greatest thing that is approaching.

Sure, everyone makes games as a hobby, to enjoy themselves and have some fun, and they make the kind of game that they like to make, so I'm not sure exactly what can be done to "fix" it, but I guess a little discussion couldn't hurt.

[Scavenger]

Yeah, barefoot's backgrounds indicate precisely what the Critic's Lounge tries to help. He attempted linear perspective, but didn't have the technique down. It isn't some kind of outsider art.

Also, please enlighten us about all the other systems of proportion, color theory and perspective. (You sound almost like an evolution denier demanding equal time for alternatives.)

I have a few.

Byzantine or Inverse, where the vanishing point is at the bottom, focal point leads outward.
Divine perspective, where the biggest things are the most important.
Mensa perspective, where the most intellectually stimulating things are the biggest.
Krisfaluscian perspective, where the grossest or funniest things are the biggest.
Perverse perspective, where the sexiest things are the biggest.
Communist perspective, where every object is equally sized.
Pessimists perspective, where the mistakes are biggest.

[mode7]

I read the initial post and a few of the follow ups. I was prepared to write a lengthy follow up but then I thought to myself:
I could join this conversation bout if the AGS community was on the right track to create the great artistic revelation of the 21st century

OR

I could just use the time to work on this game

[Ponch]

Squinky's a chick?!?!  :o

(Also, some other things were said in this thread that were probably of some importance. Mostly by Scavenger. <3)

[SpacePirateCaine]

As one of the more vocal evangelists of linear perspective in the critiques that I've offered in the Critic's lounge in the past, I would like to put forth a few comments on background design. Generally speaking, the largest representative sampling of backgrounds in this forum are made with the intent of using it in the traditional sense, in context of adventure games. To provide a large walkable area and space with props that are interactive and relatively believable in scale and shape with the character sprites.

If someone asked for critique on a background for an isometric game, or a top-down view, or a flat or even neo-cubist image, I would offer criticism and advice that are relevant to the style that they put forth. If the artist intends for an image to look off-kilter but vaguely follow the rules of linear perspective, I would take that into account. The point is just that a lot of the artists here are trying to develop a set of tools with which to work.

I deeply respect your point that people should be free to experiment - I love when people do - but I am also a large proponent of building a versatile toolkit and having the knowledge necessary to build an image in the manner which you prefer using the tried-and-true methods that artists of bygone days who are far greater than we. Do I think that people must adhere to the laws of linear perspective because I say so? Not in the slightest. But when someone shows me an image with grossly disproportionate furniture and asks me why it looks wrong, I will give them a lesson in how to achieve results using a simple and easy-to-apply method.

Now, I recognize that this conversation isn't about the art, so I apologize for my digression.

In regards to what I believe to be a misconception that everyone is just "remaking" old games, I would like to interject that although there have been some very well-done remakes, such as the King's Quest and Quest For Glory remakes, the largest portion of games here are original, even if using methods you may find antiquated.

Ultimately, this is a community of people drawn together by a love of games that offered a specific narrative interspersed with puzzles that need to be overcome in order to advance (and in the ideal case tied directly into) the narrative. We love telling stories, and often have a very specific story in our head, but don't wish to present it as a passive experience. By making it interactive but linear (or only partially branching), it allows us to weave a more specific path and experience for our players. It's interactive storytelling, and I think that the majority of the community are most interested in telling a story in this way, though a few of us are truly interested in innovating and playing with AGS in order to make new kinds of experiences.

Are you looking for changes to the standard methods of interaction, like Lucasarts did with Curse of Monkey Island's Verb Coin or Grim Fandango's ten-key setup? Or are you looking more for a break from narrative and looking for sandbox games made in the AGS engine? I'm a little foggy on exactly what you're looking for and would love some examples.

I have released two games using AGS, both of which are non-traditional in some ways, but still fit into the adventure game mold. I have toyed with simplifying methods of interaction by implementing a two-button, menu-free interface in one of my projects, as well as a dialogue-less narrative, but these are simply design decisions and do not change the fact that it is a linear narrative. Kuma Story (The game referenced above) is a very limited story about a bear making a present for his girlfriend then helping her bake a cake. It is task-based and lays out the tasks in such a manner that the player will naturally progress to the end of the narrative. Does this fit the mold of innovation that you are talking about?

I'd like to know more concisely what it is that you're proposing. Perhaps you could give an example of a game that you would like to make? Even better, you could make one yourself (Even a prototype)! I'm glad that you're opening this discussion, but it would be great if you could direct the flow a bit so we aren't all arguing different points.

[Dualnames]

I like how I'm right within the same bloody day.

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=42862.msg568768#msg568768

There in case you missed my genius post. And this of course will completely disregarded or torn apart as no one likes to be predictable and since I have a post count to raise so that my children will feed, I shall post this utter nonsense post.

Please flame.

[SpacePirateCaine]

I love you, Dualnames.

[Igor Hardy]

Squinky's a chick?!?!  :o

(Also, some other things were said in this thread that were probably of some importance. Mostly by Scavenger. <3)

There's another Squinky whose name is TheInquisitveStranger in these forums.