War unleashed...

[Dave Gilbert]

Gosh, being  in New York City at this time is the most surreal thing I've ever lived through.  I see bombing and war footage on the news and then the commentators go on to say how NYC is at a "high risk" for another terrorist attack.  They've said that before, and nothing has happened, but jeeze louise, it just permeates your brain after awhile.  The WTC attack is still fresh on our minds.  Everyone's on edge.  There is beefed up security everywhere - cops patrolling the harbors and populated districts.  NYC is probably the most secure place in the country right now, which should probably make me feel better but it doesn't.  

I work in Times Square, which is a popular place for rallies.  I left the office late last night  It was raining - a thick, heavy rain that covered my glasses and made it nearly impossible to see where I was going.  There was a large crowd on Broadway, and I could hear a loud muffled woman's voice shouting through a megaphone.  There were police cars redirecting traffic.  It was so surreal - the rain, the indecipherable voice screaming at the top of her lungs,  the bright neon lights of Times Square mixed with the flashing strobe lights of the police cars... just weird.

Nothing really to add to this debate, just thought i'd share my feelings.  I've just been feeling odd lately.

[DGMacphee]

Even: Don't forget the numerous deaths of people by guns in the US -- I'd say Bush is responsible for that, due to his lack of action upon any gun related issue.

I may constantly bag out our Prime Minister, John Howard, but at least I give him credit for banning guns when a major shooting happens.

The Port Arthur Massacre in 1996 for example -- he banned all semi-automatic weapons.

Or the Monash university shooting a few months ago -- he proposed legislation to ban all handgns not registered to the Commonwealth and Olympic Games (I'm not too sure if this proposal has gone ahead though -- does anyone know the current status of it?)

Regardless, Bush has done nothing to regulate guns in his own country, despite Columbine or the Washington Sniper.

And he has the nerve to talk about weapons of mass destruction when his own people are killing each other.

He's a hypocrite.

[Butcher]

I went to the protest in Athens today, and I must say I've never seen so many people unite before! I was moved, especially by the young people who showed up there to protest against the agression of the rich and powerful to the rest of the world...

 I bet you don't get to see all that in CNN

[Andail]

This whole deal pisses me off...I'd better not write anything

[evenwolf]

http://www.confessionalism.com/

This guy has some pictures posted of a protest that occurred yesterday, shutting down the main road on the University of Texas' campus.  They (we) blocked an intersection for about four hours with the support of the police- and then marched on to the capital building, and a much larger rally took place there.

I met the photographer after the rally at a photography club, and was pleasantly surprised when he displayed his pictures from the day:

[Matt Brown]

does that sign say solicalist worker? they have socialist clubs at UT?

[evenwolf]

Haha, there are actually. One of the head organizers of this event I believe is the president of that club.  But just to clarify- I posted that picture because I'm in it.  I was really sort of depressed at first to be there. Here was this huge group of people yelling "Quit ignoring me!"  and meanwhile bombs are splashing everywhere in Iraq.  But soon, I looked around and realized the sense of community that was forming between all these people and I started to enjoy myself.   However, I mostly just observed and listened to the opinions expressed.

[|Alky|]

Yeah, I did that too, even though I'm pro-war. It's nice to see that people aren't afraid to voice their opinions..
It's kind of annoying that there are people with 'second hand opinions', though. I couldn't resist saying 'no shit' to a person holding up a 'killing people is not nice' sign.

[Las Naranjas]

The Socialist Worker even get's it material republished in papers like www.green-left.org (which is a bit wet but hey).

What really got me in the rallies, is the fact they were completely braod based, and the sheer number of old and other sterotypical conservative voters.
The opposition isn't based on old class and party lines, which is good.

[Spyros]

I went to the protest in Athens today, and I must say I've never seen so many people unite before! I was moved, especially by the young people who showed up there to protest against the agression of the rich and powerful to the rest of the world...

 I bet you don't get to see all that in CNN

And don't forget the young girls...

[Darth Mandarb]

If all the US and the UK are thinking about is oil, I say good for them!  Both our countries rely on Oil reserves from the Middle East.  We have a right to defend our interests.  But, of course, Saddam would never keep the oil from us ... nah .. he's a nice guy.

Even though the US plan to bomb areas of Iraq with a high civillian population?

I'm not for Saddam.

I'm not for Bush and Blair.

My biggest worry is how many innocent people will die at the hands of all all these "leaders".

Saddam uses innocent civilians as human shields, this isn't President Bush's fault, nor Tony Blair's.  Perhaps if the rest of the world wasn't so 'uneducated' about the facts, this wouldn't be an issue.  Yes, innocent people will be killed ... it's called war.  But this is happening because Saddam Hussein defied international sanctions.  He didn't do what he agreed to do.  Saddam forced the action that is being taken, not Bush.  This is Hussein's fault.  If you want to point a finger go ahead, just point it at the person responsible.  And as much as the rest of the world loves the 'I hate America' band wagon, this is Hussein's fault, NOT Americas.  Do any of you HONESTLY think, that if America were attacked, Bush would use the innocents civilians of America as human shields?  Would he gas/kill/rape/murder American civilians?

This whole thread has made me sick.  I can't believe that the rest of the world can be so f***ing blind that you can't see the most obvious facts.  I'll tell you what.  I'll talk to Blair and Bush and get them to pull out and leave Saddam in power.  But here's the catch, when Saddam creates his first nuke, and we HAVE to go in to stop him, all you panzy ass quakers have to go in first and be 'nucleur' cannon fodder.

dm

[Darth Mandarb]

Regardless, Bush has done nothing to regulate guns in his own country, despite Columbine or the Washington Sniper.

And he has the nerve to talk about weapons of mass destruction when his own people are killing each other.

He's a hypocrite.

Yeah, you're right.  He is a hypocrite.  He should definately take away our constitutional right to bear arms.  Yeah, you know what you're talking about.  Bush HAS put restrictions on the type of guns that are legal, he has done great work in clearing illegal fire arms from the streets.

And also, there is a HUGE difference between me owning a hand gun, and a psychotic dictator owning nuclear weapons.  How you, or anybody for that matter, could even compare that is rediculous and sickening.

I just love that the rest of the world is just jumping on the "Anti-American" band wagon.  It's pathetic.

Anyway, before you call the most powerful man in the free world a hypocrite, perhaps you should first know what you're talking about.

dm

[evenwolf]

"Saddam uses innocent civilians as human shields."

I'm terribly sorry, but I think your entire post is completely uncredible until you clarify this point and add some supporting facts.  This assumption is the pivotal point of your post and as no one is arguing Saddam's lack of morals etc, this accusation is more than just a character trait.  

However, like I've said- this is not as black and white as some people try to make it.  Saddam is bad, sure- he could be taken out of power.  BUT, not just any excuse can be used as a catalyst for this action- because many people in the world would see it as unjustified- including the U.N., countries   such as France, Russia etc..

SO the fact that Bush used 9/11 as the catalyst, in combination with these rumors about Saddam is what gets me.  Don't you see he's exploiting the victims of the world trade center tragedy?   If it just took a couple planes and a building to make Bush justified for blowing up any country in the world- you would think he would start fabricating instances himself- not to raise question or anything.... after all, I can understand how Bush had to finish reading his children's book that morning.  I mean, it IS a good book.

[Darth Mandarb]

"Saddam uses innocent civilians as human shields."

I'm terribly sorry, but I think your entire post is completely uncredible until you clarify this point and add some supporting facts.  This assumption is the pivotal point of your post and as no one is arguing Saddam's lack of morals etc, this accusation is more than just a character trait.  

However, like I've said- this is not as black and white as some people try to make it.  Saddam is bad, sure- he could be taken out of power.  BUT, not just any excuse can be used as a catalyst for this action- because many people in the world would see it as unjustified- including the U.N., countries   such as France, Russia etc..

SO the fact that Bush used 9/11 as the catalyst, in combination with these rumors about Saddam is what gets me.  Don't you see he's exploiting the victims of the world trade center tragedy?   If it just took a couple planes and a building to make Bush justified for blowing up any country in the world- you would think he would start fabricating instances himself- not to raise question or anything.... after all, I can understand how Bush had to finish reading his children's book that morning.  I mean, it IS a good book.

Haven't any of you noticed that ALL the Anti-aircraft weapons in downtown Baghdad are on top of buildings that aren't military targets?  Haven't you seen all of his propaganda photos of innocent people that were killed when our bombs drop?  These people were put in the basements of military targets.  A place where civilians have no right (or desire) to be.  Or he moves his military segments into civilian complexes.  How can you people not see this?

Bush isn't exploiting the victims of Sept. 11.  He's honoring them.  He might be using the event to get the world support he needs to take action against Iraq, but for you to say that he is 'exploiting' them is ignorant beyond imagination.  He's doing something that needs to be done.  And, sadly, it took the events of Sept. 11 to open the eyes of the rest of the world, to realize what needed to be done.  It's really too bad that you all just can't see this and need to make unfounded insults and accusations ... pathetic.

dm

[evenwolf]

Where would I see these images, perhaps on privately owned networks owned by Rupert Murdock or Ted Turner?  So what you're saying and I'm translating is that we are killing innocent bystanders, and our media/government is spinning these tragedies to say these casualties were seeking shelter in places where they shouldn't be... but OH well, we'll continue bombing anyways.  

For just one time, would I like to turn on the news and hear Dan Rather or someone say "Oh shit,  we just  %&#@ed up."

And you know, that never happens really- we must be doing an extraordinary job to never make mistakes- there always seems to be some pretty little justification.

[Matt Brown]

sigh, ive been thinking about this, and the more I do, the less black and white it seems to me about wether we need to go in.
It isn't completly just that I hate war. sometimes war is needed. we needed to kick hitlers ass. This was not a pre-emtive strike. In fact, the only time I can remember the US having a premitive strike was the spanish-american war. what a great page in our histroy books that was.

anyways, what really bugs me is the authority. See, saddam is a bad guy. he hurts his own. Yeah, lots of countrys do that. yeah, he might have chemical weapons. so does lybia. So does north korea. So? NK says they do, and plans tests. THEY are the dagerous ones.

[Darth Mandarb]

You've convinced me ... you're right.  You should believe Hussein's propagandists over CNN.  What was I thinking?

You're giving a lunatic madman more credit than George Bush.  I think that's just sad.  Sad.

Those Iraqi solidiers who look so happy to be finally liberated.  And are shaking the hands (and hugging) American soldiers.  Wow ... Rupert Murdock and Ted Turner found some good actors.

Pathetic.

dm

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

LOL! You think the US media is completely truthful and accurate? OMG, I so did not know that! You learn something new every day.  :

Of course, its on tv so it MUST be true. They wouldn't lie, would they...Ever think they only show you the bits they want you to see?

Oh and another thing, dont make anti-war = pro-saddam. It is NOT the same thing.

[Kairus]

You're giving a lunatic madman more credit than George Bush.  I think that's just sad.  Sad.

- Saddam is a lunatic madman.
- Bush is a chimp with a gun.
What a couple of world leaders we have to choose from!!!

[BOYD1981]

there was a phone-in on a radio station yesterday and some bloke phoned in that was at some protest here in england and he said "blair and bush aren't listening to the people, 2 million of us have protested against this war etc etc words to that effect..." what he failed to realise is that those 2 million people aren't the entire population of the uk, the government are obviously listening to the 40 odd million other people here that are either for the war or aren't really that bothered, besides, why should they listen to us whether we're for or against war?
it's not our decision to make, plus if there was never the need for military action, i'm not pro-war, i'm anti-saddam, anti-murder and anti-justsitthereanddonothing...
speak to some Iraqi refugees that have fled their country because of the actions of saddam, ask them what it's really like over there, saddam controls people through fear and murder, bush and blair govern their people, they may do it badly and make stupid decisions but that's better than just killing people...
but all that aside, have you noticed how that woman in the blue shirt in that protest photo seems to not know how banners work by holding it upside down and down by the floor so nobody can see it?