Verb Coin vs two buttons

[Gurok]

I don't think criticism of a button needing to be held down is objective. We're in consensus, but it's still people saying it feels bad.

There are at least four objective criticisms of the requirement to hold down the mouse button (effectively a drag operation):

Right, I should have said the criticism up until now, in this thread. Those are objective, but "it feels bad" or "I don't like it" isn't.

[Radiant]

Right, I should have said the criticism up until now, in this thread. Those are objective, but "it feels bad" or "I don't like it" isn't.

Bear in mind that this goes both ways. Most of the praise of verb coins doesn't go any further than "I like it" or "It looks pretty", neither of which is objective.

(conversely, there have been numerous objective objections as early as the first page. But you don't like them )

[Danvzare]

Oh, here's another interesting angle. The way the English language works is that the verb comes before the object (noun). So to players, it feels more natural to construct a command by clicking "look" and then "tree" (to have their character look at the tree), instead of the inverse ("tree" then "look"). Most players won't consciously note this, but will feel that the former is intuitive and the latter is not.

Note how the Sierra GUI enforces the natural sentence, how the LucasArts GUI allows both the natural sentence and its inverse, and how the verbcoin forces the inverse and does not allow the natural.

That... is a very good point.
Although now it makes me question how unintuitive the LucasArts GUI is in other languages.
And thus also how intuitive the Verbcoin must feel in other languages.

[CaesarCub]

Oh, here's another interesting angle. The way the English language works is that the verb comes before the object (noun). So to players, it feels more natural to construct a command by clicking "look" and then "tree" (to have their character look at the tree), instead of the inverse ("tree" then "look"). Most players won't consciously note this, but will feel that the former is intuitive and the latter is not.

Note how the Sierra GUI enforces the natural sentence, how the LucasArts GUI allows both the natural sentence and its inverse, and how the verbcoin forces the inverse and does not allow the natural.

That... is a very good point.
Although now it makes me question how unintuitive the LucasArts GUI is in other languages.
And thus also how intuitive the Verbcoin must feel in other languages.

Unless I'm forgetting anything, all Latin based languages do have the basic [subject][verb][noun] logic. And if I'm not mistaken so does German and even Chinese.
A quick Google translate session shows me that Japanese on the other hand uses a less common [subject][noun][verb] configuration.
So the LA GUI seems to be quite intuitive for most western languages at least, with exceptions showing up as we go east.

[Cassiebsg]

Honestly, don't see it as intuitive or not-intuitive. At least my brain doesn't make up a sentence but associates ideas... I can see at a tree and then decide I want to lay behind it, climb it or just look closer at it. I don't immediate think "I want to look at..." and then scan to see decide what I want to look at... This is at least how my brain works.
When I'm playing any game, I scan with eyes the BG, then decide I want to look at X, thus find the appropriate action before I choose the action. So don't know how this is even remotely a point.
I actually find my self cursing slightly, to not be able to select the noun before I go find the verb in the 9 verb LA UI... because I've already decided that I want to look at that, and often is the mouse closer to where I want to look or interact with than it is with the verb.

[Radiant]

I actually find my self cursing slightly, to not be able to select the noun before I go find the verb in the 9 verb LA UI...

A number of Lucasarts games allow you to do precisely that, supporting both word orders.

[Snarky]

Only, as far as I can tell, the early ones (Maniac Mansion, Zak, Last Crusade, maybe early versions of Monkey Island), before they eliminated the "Walk" verb.

[cat]

I can see at a tree and then decide I want to lay behind it, climb it or just look closer at it. I don't immediate think "I want to look at..." and then scan to see decide what I want to look at... This is at least how my brain works.

This is a very interesting aspect that I think is very true and is probably language independent.


I was at AdventureX last weekend and saw and tried many different new and upcoming games that were showcased.
Guess what, none of them used either left-right click or LA-verbs (let alone that terrible Sierra GUI). They were all using either single click interface or verb coin (and I think those two were distributed about 50:50 for point and click adventures. Of course, most of them were also showcased on mobile devices.

My conclusion: Single click or verb coin is the way to go for the next years.

[CaesarCub]

Guess what, none of them used either left-right click or LA-verbs (let alone that terrible Sierra GUI). They were all using either single click interface or verb coin (and I think those two were distributed about 50:50 for point and click adventures. Of course, most of them were also showcased on mobile devices.

I think that is the main reason. With mobile gaming support becoming a must, creating interfaces that can be dealt with only one button (be it with double taps, holds, or hold and drag) become more common.
But honestly I think this is a mistake. If your game is going to be published in different platforms, you should give each the best UI controls they can have, instead of going for a lower common denominator.
That is, take advantage of keyboard shortcuts and mouses with two (three) buttons (and a wheel) in the platforms you have them.
Then again this does mean an overhead of thinking your game through with several UIs in mind.

[Radiant]

But honestly I think this is a mistake. If your game is going to be published in different platforms, you should give each the best UI controls they can have, instead of going for a lower common denominator.
That is, take advantage of keyboard shortcuts and mouses with two (three) buttons (and a wheel) in the platforms you have them.

Precisely. For example, on any platform that has a keyboard, there is no excuse for omitting keyboard shortcuts (and it's not like they're hard to implement or anything). It keeps surprising me how many developers overlook that.

[Andail]

Unless I'm forgetting anything, all Latin based languages do have the basic [subject][verb][noun] logic. And if I'm not mistaken so does German and even Chinese.
A quick Google translate session shows me that Japanese on the other hand uses a less common [subject][noun][verb] configuration.

Just to nit-pick: Don't use 'subject' and 'noun' in the same context; the former is a clause element and the latter a word class, which in turn can be both objects and subjects. It's like saying your cart was drawn by both horses and animals.

On-topic:
For WOAM, we're going for just a single click for everything. We're not even using right-click to look; instead things that cannot be interacted with are automatically looked at, and things that are ambiguous or need special warning or some kind of prompting ("you can kick the mule if you wish to") will give that first and then the interaction on the second click.

I've found it kind of boring to routinely click "look" at every single hotspot in a room, just to read/listen to the author's attempt at dressing all these objects in interesting or humorous descriptions.

And also because it will be easy to port it to mobiles.

[cat]

But honestly I think this is a mistake. If your game is going to be published in different platforms, you should give each the best UI controls they can have, instead of going for a lower common denominator.

I can only partly agree. The interface is not only a mean of communication with the game, it has also a big impact on the game design itself. So, while of course it is reasonable to do some adjustments for touch application (larger hotspots and buttons, verbcoin instead of sierra style verbs,...) or M&K (keyboard shortcuts, use right mousebutton to deselect inventory,...) there HAS to be a common denominator.

For example, the number of verbs/actions has a huge impact on gameplay. If you have a left-right click interface on M&K and switch to touch using only single click, you will loose a lot of content. Of course you could go one step further and also make different gameplay for different devices, but at one point the question will arise: How much effort is this worth to put into?

[cat]

I've found it kind of boring to routinely click "look" at every single hotspot in a room, just to read/listen to the author's attempt at dressing all these objects in interesting or humorous descriptions.

This makes me think about another option: what about not making the character look at an object and then telling what he saw to the player, but instead have the PLAYER take a closer look by providing closeups? I've seen this in various games and it is very exiting. Of course, this also means a lot more work for the artist...

[Danvzare]

I've found it kind of boring to routinely click "look" at every single hotspot in a room, just to read/listen to the author's attempt at dressing all these objects in interesting or humorous descriptions.

Looking can be a solution to a puzzle as well you know.
That's not an excuse to use a two button system over a one button system. I just wanted to point out that the look command can and has been used for more than just useless descriptions.

[Andail]

I've found it kind of boring to routinely click "look" at every single hotspot in a room, just to read/listen to the author's attempt at dressing all these objects in interesting or humorous descriptions.

Looking can be a solution to a puzzle as well you know.
That's not an excuse to use a two button system over a one button system. I just wanted to point out that the look command can and has been used for more than just useless descriptions.

Definitely! I meant the tedious "that's a door." or worse yet the various comedic "never seen a door before?" iterations.

If looking at something is important, for solving a puzzle or understanding the plot, then obviously our one-click will do just that for you.

[CaesarCub]

Just to nit-pick: Don't use 'subject' and 'noun' in the same context; the former is a clause element and the latter a word class, which in turn can be both objects and subjects. It's like saying your cart was drawn by both horses and animals.

Yeah, I should have checked the right translations for the words I was aiming at, but at the moment I was busier looking at translations of different languages of the same phrases to see if I could find some exceptions.

For example, the number of verbs/actions has a huge impact on gameplay. If you have a left-right click interface on M&K and switch to touch using only single click, you will loose a lot of content. Of course you could go one step further and also make different gameplay for different devices, but at one point the question will arise: How much effort is this worth to put into?

The only example I can think of right now (and is by far not a perfect one) is the DOTT Remastered, where you can switch from classic SCUMM to a dial UI. The UIs are wildly different, but they both retain the same basic functionality. You already have an impact on gameplay when suddenly you lose the keyboard and the second click, and any hover functionality you could have.

I've found it kind of boring to routinely click "look" at every single hotspot in a room, just to read/listen to the author's attempt at dressing all these objects in interesting or humorous descriptions.

This makes me think about another option: what about not making the character look at an object and then telling what he saw to the player, but instead have the PLAYER take a closer look by providing closeups? I've seen this in various games and it is very exiting. Of course, this also means a lot more work for the artist...

Closeups sound like a nice idea when it comes to important objects.
Personally I believe that the art should tell you all you need about for any puzzle solving and the LOOK verb should mainly be used for things like reading or when you need more detail.
I mean, if you have to look at everything to advance int he game, then why not stick to text adventures?
I have a friend that once proposed that the LOOK verb to trigger on hover, so you could read all descriptions and leave the clicking for the actions. I'm not crazy about that, but it's an interesting concept.

[Radiant]

That's not an excuse to use a two button system over a one button system. I just wanted to point out that the look command can and has been used for more than just useless descriptions.

Indeed. As pointed out before, it's not the amount of verbs that has a "huge impact on gameplay", but the amount of meaningful interactions.

[cat]

As pointed out before, it's not the amount of verbs that has a "huge impact on gameplay", but the amount of meaningful interactions.

Absolutely. However, the GUI you are using has to -in one way or another- support those interactions. If your gameplay mechanics make good use of the look AND use interactions, it could be hard to implement a one-click interface.

The point I want to make: The UI should not only depend on the input device and how convenient it is to use, but ideally should be closely wired to the game mechanics.

Basically, you have two opposing UI goals:

• Make the UI fit to your gameplay
• Make the UI fit the device

I think it's difficult to fulfill both, you have to make some concessions.

For example, you can limit the number of platforms you support. By going PC only you immediately remove all issues caused by touch devices. Or you focus on touch and e.g. make stronger use of gestures in puzzles.
On the other hand, you can make the gameplay simpler. When a hotspot only has one meaningful interaction, it does not matter what device you use, it can be easily implemented in a UI.

A third option would be, to make several versions of a game. A touch version could use gesture based puzzles, while a PC version might require you to input text with a keyboard. Of course, this immensely increases development effort...

After all, there might be strong economical reasons for a lower common denominator.

You already have an impact on gameplay when suddenly you lose the keyboard and the second click, and any hover functionality you could have.

That's what I meant with my earlier post.

I have a friend that once proposed that the LOOK verb to trigger on hover, so you could read all descriptions and leave the clicking for the actions. I'm not crazy about that, but it's an interesting concept.

Again, please have a look at http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1359/ which uses something similar.

[CaesarCub]

I have a friend that once proposed that the LOOK verb to trigger on hover, so you could read all descriptions and leave the clicking for the actions. I'm not crazy about that, but it's an interesting concept.

Again, please have a look at http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1359/ which uses something similar.

I did, I found it interesting to add the Look action into the verb coin.
I was also remembering LSL7 where the verb coin is a drop down menu that has access to the inventory as well for quick "use with" interactions.

[cat]

I was also remembering LSL7 where the verb coin is a drop down menu that has access to the inventory as well for quick "use with" interactions.

Interesting. I only found this screenshot here, is this what you mean?

I think that cascading context menus are hard to use (even in a windows environment).