Yufster HATE Thread.

[Dave Gilbert]

DG:  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Jeeze louise, lighten up people.  Am I blind?  Am I the only one who never noticed a problem in the first place?  What's with these "Woe is the forum" posts?  Plenty of the "oldbies" are off topic and silly and don't post anything about adventure games or AGS.  When did we get so elitist?

DS, you say things have gone "downhill" since AGS started?  Look at the quality games that have been released this year alone!  The Uncertainty Machine, Nick it and Run, RR3, Apprentice, and RQ2 to name a brief few.  Not to mention a slew of fantastic MAGS and RON games.  2003 has been the best year for AGS gaming yet, and it's only half over!  

Relaaaxxx, folks.  Don't let a couple of annoying folks spoil our fun.  Ignore 'em.  They'll go away.  Like a bad headache.

-Dave
The Eternal Optimist.

[m0ds]

[Trapezoid]

I never said Helm's post was honest.

However, I did say he was sometimes 'irrational'.

And I also said he made 'valid points'.

However, sometimes you have to cut through that tough and mighty Greek exterior to understand his true sentimonies!

You never said it, but some others said it.

Helm usually puts a lot of thought into the writing of his posts, but he doesn't seem to think much about how people will react...

[DGMacphee]

Relaaaxxx, folks.  Don't let a couple of annoying folks spoil our fun.  Ignore 'em.  They'll go away.  Like a bad headache.

-Dave
The Eternal Optimist.

That's what my post was for.

Consider me Sgt Hartman and I'm separating the marines from the maggots.

Mods:
If you had c_leks with a knife at the front door, it would be perfect!

Trap:
That's Helm for you -- love him or lump him.

[SSH]

It's something I've notcied before, but if this "general discussion" forum doesn't match the "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board." subtitle on the front page, maybe the subtitle should be changed. Maybe "Communist Oldie Authoritarians get shirty" would be better  

j/k, guys!!!!

[Scummbuddy]

Both the comics are hilarious.  
I think DG made some great points though, and I back him up.

Dark S, I hope to someday meet you at a Mittens then, if we can't talk here anymore.  Just going to fish now then?


Oh, And
I ARES LeavIng mY moDDIng in ze BeGGinners PosTerium!    :
*j/k CJ*

[Jimi]

continuing from Dave Gilberts post: Not to mantion FoY. That game is gonna rock.

I think the quality of artwork, and games is getting better, so you can't say ags is bad. You're bound to get people who just reak havok like kikme with anything you do. But when you consider AGS, I think it has done really well, even if I wasn't here to see it from the start.

[Nellie]

Let's not get carried away.  Helm's post isn't 'unforgivable' by any means, and it will certainly be unfortunate if such a longstanding and devoted member removes himself from the community for a long period of time.  I like Helm, and respect him, and would hate to see him leave over such a silly thing as this.

Equally, we should beware of double standards.  Helm is a grown man and as much aware of the community rules as any of us.  I don't think his aggressive anti-Yufster post is an inevitable consequence of his love for the community.  And so I'm afraid I cannot agree with the oldbies who have so far posted messages that go some way towards excusing Helm's post, as though it were not really such a bad thing to do, because we must take into account the growing pressure of dealing with newbies...

It was a bad thing to do.  Yufster has started intelligent topics, obeyed the forum rules, and has never intended harm to anyone.  Helm just aggressively and publicly flamed her over a not particularly offensive comment.  This is simply wrong.  There isn't one rule for oldbies and another for newbies.  If you're unneccesarily rude to another forum member, you've crossed the line and deserve censure.

And boy has Helm had some censure in this thread.

Hopefully he will realise that his conduct was not justified, and chalk it down as a lesson to cool down a little before he hits the 'post' button.  Then it would be nice if he decided to stick around rather than deprive us of his stimulating presence for a time.  This place will be poorer without him.

Besides, I wanna see more of his cool art.

[DGMacphee]

SSH:
I will update the front page to include the above sentiments.

Jimi:
But that's the problem -- people like kikme who just want to join this community because they think it's "in".

Nellie:
Do not worry, because I don't excuse Helm's post and from the sounds of it so don't a lot of other people.

However, I spoke to him and asked him why.

Not only that, but I spoke to some other members (both old and new) and the consenus is the same.

Helm over-reacted in his usual undiplomatic fashion.

But once again, I state clearly: Don't blame Helm, blame me for locking his original polite request for Yufster to post less -- the debate should be there and not here.

It was more ignorant on my part.

And once again, the problem isn't strictly Yufster -- in fact, I consider her to play a very minor role in this whole drama.

[Jimi]

I don't mean to offend, but I think Helms comments were a bit over the top, and childish.

[MillsJROSS]

Ehem...There are several places I could take quotes from and argue points but I'll just explain things in a general mish mush.

Helm's intention wasn't to hurt Yufster. I don't agree with his approach. But look at what he's already done, he's brought an issue up, bluntly, that needed to be brought up. Should he have used more tact? Been nicer? Maybe, but the truth is, now there are around sixty posts in a seven hour period (which for a message board is quite a number in that amount of time, considering some threads don't even get 20). Let's look at this in a more positive light, shall we. This conversation needed to happen a long time ago.

Indeed, this is a community, and your welcome to have fun and chat. That's what this gen gen forum is for. However, in the past few years this has been the main focus for new people comming to ags and us oldies a like. There used to be a time when most of the posts were directed towards AGS gen. The gen gen forum isn't supposed to be AGS's main focus. Chris shouldn't have to waste so much of his bandwith here. The focus should be in the tech forums, the AGS gen forums, the critics lounge, and even the competitions forum.

This is aimed at newbies and oldies alike. Some of us post too much silly useless crap. I've been guilty of it. Most everyone has been guilty of it, one time or another. And silly crap IS welcome. It's just not welcome to a point where it seems you are crapping more than eating (in other words spending more time conversating than contributing, bad analogy, I know).

When I first joined here, I don't remember when. I downloaded the engine, looked at the forums real quick, and went right into making my game. I maybe posted three times in three months while working on my game. I didn't allow myself to use mIRC until I had finished my game. This has been my contribution to AGS. Does it matter if you like my game or not? No! Are there other ways of contributing? Yes!

People need to realise, this community IS great. BUT, this community isn't here just to be community. It's here for Adventure Games, and people who wish to make/play them. If you want to chat there are tons of communities that are aimed just for that.

Helm's post, while harsh, and a bit too much, did exactly what he set out to do. I am sorry Yufster is singled out, I'm sure if she's intelligent she'll realise what Helms post is for what it is.

-MillsJROSS

-MillsJROSS

[Helm]

Okay. Closure, then. Some explanations, mainly for the people PMing me. Please try to read this as I ment it, meaning, without any attempt being made at overdramatizing. Sure it comes off a bit corny, but that's due to me being wordy, and my inability to be as precise as needed to make fine points as I would like to when using the english language. Try to not picture a weeping helm when reading this, for I am anything but.


I do not hate Yufster. I actually do not feel as strong or as negative an emotion towards anyone. The reason I chose to word my initial post as I did was because I wanted to emphasize my point, even in a somewhat descriptive way. In restrospect I find that a poor decision, seeing how it provided grounds for a number of people to make obvious accusations towards me with a startling solidarity (IT SI ILLEGAL TO THREATNE PEOPL!!!!!!!!!!!!11111). If you knew me even just a tad better, you'd understand the spirit in which the original post was written. I am a bit... agressive when I'm doing this sort of thing, and the reason you do not see any oldie really take notice is because they've accepted me as I am. Just like how Cpt. Mostly sometimes is given to not making complete sense, or Mods will always say something sexual, or eric being 40 feet tall and a time traveller, Helm is given to being a bastard. And he's forgiven. You simply do not know me enough to pass judgement like you're the final arbiter. I'm sure Yufster will not cry over some hairy greek person wishing bodily harm to befall her. If she did, she'd be a whole different person, one that I probably would never take stabs at. In fact (would you believe it????2?2?22222) I do not wish Yufster died a horrible horrible death involving melted icecream and an exposed powerline. Detained from the use of a computer, maybe. But not killed. Maybe maimed. Hm.

Anyway, what is important is this: When I wrote the original text and clicked "Post", I did it after a good long while of thinking. But I did it effortlessly. There was a time when posting an oppinion on lesser things had more of an impact on me. There were times, like when I had sort of a falling out with DGM, or that other time with Andail, that I felt geniunely sad. Hell, even one time when we pulled a prank with eric and there was Helm Open Season, that had quite emotional effect on me. In fact, I'm pretty certain some people never completely forgave us for that one (well.. me, I guess. Eric is too loveable to hold a grudge against) and when I recall the memory, I still feel bad. There was a time when we were debating a matter with Las or Britney that I went through my post 30 times (although it didn't really show) before submitting, for fear of construsion. Their oppinions really mattered to me. And to thoroughly present my point, there were times in the past when I felt very glad to be part of the community. Like the whole Whiteboard period, or Butch and Glodmnu making threads a joy to read. Most of the 'oldies' that have endured are people of character and essence, for me. Even when I do not always agree with them, there's a certain deal of respect there. Their oppinions and words -whereas not the focus of the boards for me, the games ware always the point- ment something to me, and I took them seriously - even too seriously.

Over a long period, these forums have become less a community for me, and more like a joke. A bad joke at that. And it doesn't have to do with 'newbies'. Nor does it (completely) have to do with the games you have to make. I remember when Grundislav was a newbie and I read his posts and I thought "this person is bringing something to the community. Without him, the AGS scene would be poorer". Or Timosity, or Yak, they posted, I listened. I find it hard to listen to Yufster, or Jimi, or Femme F or a number of other people. Why? It's not the games, as DGM says. In fact, the games I've made I do not really like anymore. So why?

Because these people have priorities I do not approve of. They 'hang around', and they get on their soapbox and rant and they chat chat chatter chatter bicker argue elephants it's a dangerous place. And that doesn't say to me "I'm prepared to be commited, to be honest and to listen" it says "I'm looking for an audience, I'm looking for chat buddies to fill up my vacant life, I'm looking for people that have something to say, anything to say about what I just said" And that was so sad I gradually stopped caring about them completely. In fact, I hoped that if I ignored them, they would go away. Believe me, we hoped that if we ignored them, they'd go away. But apparently there's enough of them around, so they can talk to each other and feed off their needs. And gradually, the forum filled up with that sort of stuff until it's nigh impossible to ignore. Lots of people left because of this, I suspect. Does any of you new people know who Unilin is? Esseb? Scid? Ghormak? Eric?  Jarnokob? Goldmund? Butcher? 2ma2? Andail? In fact, besides my screen name, does any of you know anything about me? I do not speak for these people, but I suspect the reason they've distanced themselves from here was exactly because it's so hard to swallow the fact that their community is now this. Yufster striking out swear words, Jimi hating his dad because he looks at him when he plays guitar, and kikme living forever.


Is this unfair to some of you that may have been categorized along with the rest as 'useless'? Yes. I'm sure undergroundling will in time make honest contributions to the community on many levels. Or others. But the truth is this: tough luck. You've been handed a difficult hand, so make the most of it. People might not be so favourable to newbies as they once were, after months of grating oversaturation, but the commited people will shine through. It is the crux of what I am saying, the fact that so many of you rushed to reply so thoroughly to such a thread, so eager to share your oppinion with others without first considering your motivation to do so. You actually provided a source of amusement for a number of us, that fail to take you seriously exactly because you're not people striving for something, you're just names with oppinions attached to them.


The general general board has been in a constant state of decadance for a while now. I think it's useless and if it was in my ability, I'd shut it down. Most of the people that I do find worth communicating with have already migrated to greener pastures. Instead of further adding to this mess, I choose to leave the 'community' aspect of these forums, while I will still post and participate in activities, or critique art, or discuss technical issues, or more importantly I will still download the games, and I will still try to make some games. I've come to terms with the fact that as far as the forum goes, this is not the place I fondly remember, and it is impossible to go back at said memory, no matter how I might entertain thoughts of how horribly mutilating a number of you classifies as 'a good start'.


So, I hope my final post in gen gen for a good long while has shed some light in a number of things. I honestly prefered the original sudden and loud bang to the spelled out B-A-N-G I've resorted to post, but eh, at least now I won't have to go to jail for my vicious verbal assault on Yufster. Right?  


-Helm

-Helm

[Darth Mandarb]

Did you guys realize that if you take Yufster and spell it backwards you get Retsfuy ... how can you possibly HATE that??

Tell me!!

dm

[Jimi]

I don't want to sound like i'm intruding, but...

why the final ost for a long while?

[Vel]

You're just damn right Helm.

[MachineElf]

I know feel I should've read this thread through before posting in the love-thread, but done is done.

Full respect to DG and Helm and everybody else who contributed to this discussion.

I guess I'm considered an oldie, although I don't quite feel like one, probably because I've been here only in periods and during long times haven't been very engaged in these forums nor in adventure game making. At the moment I really feel like a newbie, not contributing too much to the community and making too many % of my posts about other things than adventure game making. That makes me probably overtolerant about the kind of newbies that Helm and DG talk about and makes me think a great deal myself about my role in this community. I hope more people do this.

Just remember: This is not an anti-newbie thread! It's just about getting newbies, and others, something to think about.

But again, love to y'all!

[Jimi]

On second thoughts, I don't want to know. I've just read youre post again, and youve pretty much insulted the people who have come here after you. Its like some "I'm older than you, so you'll listen to me" thing. I admit,I've made mistakes on the forums, but when you said, "undergroundling will in time make honest contribututions" since I've joined, he's the only newbie I've seen who has hardly posted unless its for a good reason, so I think you shouldn't say that about him.

[DGMacphee]

Jimi:


Bill Cosby says:
"Jimiiii, this exact-u-lay what DGeeee is talkin' ABOUT. So far... Heeeelm has maaade... SEVERAL GAMES... and I took a look at your website and found the game RODNEY. I was very eager to doooooownload this game but I could not find it ANYWHERE! All I could find was dis picture of the main CHARACTER! THAT'S ALL!!! Why are you re-ply-ing to this post so much when you haven't made any games what-so-ever? You see, this is just like jello puddin'! It's not sooo difficiult fer you to SWALLOW!!! Instead of the rantin' and the ravin' you could be making the games for the forum!!! Now if you will excuse me I have to go see my wife CAMILLE and ask her for another one of these multi-colored SWEATERS!!!

THEEEEOOOOOOOO!!!!"

[DaveGilbertAtParents]

Bill?  I thought you were killed by a brain-craving zombie!

-Dave

[Scummbuddy]

Jimi, he was saying he is on his way to being a very good contributor.  He is not saying hes not doing anything.  He is saying he is doing a good job.

And he's not going to post in a forum that makes so many mindless rants... and I agree with him.

And I'm holding my tounge on a few things that I agreed on with Helm and some of his pointing fingers and will not elaborate.