YE GRANDE ELITIST OLD GUARD FORUM?? pros and cons

[Pessi]

I think there's a little misunderstanding here.

Some people say there should be another general discussion forum for thought-out discussion, and the oldies would obviously get there.

And then some other people say there should be a new forum for the oldbies because the certain bunch consists of 'old friends', so to say. It would just be a place for them to hang out. Not meaning they would only post thought-out stuff. Just fooling around like they used to. And I think this was the original idea.

Basically, as far as I can see, the selection of the members wouldn't be that hard. I mean, the bunch knows who were there then and are here now.

In the final analysis, I'm thinking the new forum might be also a bad idea (contrary to what I posted earlier). People - those who supposedly wouldn't get to visit the forum - are taking it surprisingly hard. If it splits the community into newbies and oldbies, I don't think we should go for it - it would be less of a community. If it would have been just a place for the veterans to hang out when they want, it would have been good. But it seems like the first option is where we are going right now...  

Finally, I think we definitely shouldn't go for picking like 10 or so members a month that would get into the forum. I mean, at first, Chris made the forums (only technical discussion) so AGS users could help each other when they confront problems as it leaves more free time for CJ, and more time for him to concentrate on developing AGS.

As there were discussion on the technical forum about adventure games in general as well, CJ decided to make another forum for that - so it wouldn't clutter up the techincal forum, as well as making the community stronger. And it was the very same way the other forums hit the light of the day.

And look where we're going: we're separating good and bad members and making separate forums for each (to exaggerate a bit). It's silly and it doesn't serve any of the original purposes of these forums. In fact, the forums would become more of a burden for CJ, than a place to help and on the other hand, a place where to relax. It seems like we're not building this community - we're breaking it down. And in this way, the original idea is better... In my opinion!

I say we should either make games or discuss about them with our foreign acquaintances. If it goes beyond that - to general discussion - we should remember to respect each other as we would if we were to meet in real life. Debates are great, but when they get negative and serious connotations... it's not why we came here. We came here to have good time.

[Hobbes]

Pessi, you couldn't be more right.

Now I'm going to finish off my Demo so I can finally have an accepted place here.

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

Once, the AGS forums were a happy family. Newbies received good advice and enjoyed the company of oldies and after some time they became oldies themselves.All was fine until one day, the unthinkable happened... The oldies didn't like newbies anymore. They put up borders to keep the newbies out and only let in who they liked. After some time the oldies lost all touch with the newbies. They didn't know who to let in as they didn't know who was suitable. Slowly, the oldies witheredaway, their numbers ever declining as the newbies forgot about them...

[juncmodule]

To quote myself:

In addition to that there could be the whole oldbies elect members kind of thing that they could work out at a later date.

I think maybe you missed that one .

Pessi: I must say I am glad to see you posting here again. You disappeared about a month after I signed up and then everyone talked about you. From your post I see why.

I agree that the way people are thinking about this isn't quite right. I suprised that newbies are getting all upset. I only stand on the side of the oldbies because, I see a problem in which they may eventually begin to leave, I want to solve that problem. My own suggestions for this newbie forum would exclude myself from them. It seems that I am one of the few newbies that is capable of saying "whatever keeps people here". I'm not offended or insulted because it obviously has nothing to do with me. I think some newbies are taking it too personally which points back to the root of the problem.

Regardless, I can see your points very clearly. I am well aware that this could be a bad idea. The seperation could lead to bad things. So, perhaps seperating the gen-gen forum and the criteria for what could be posted there is a better idea. Much like other forums have been seperated to alleviate problems. Same with this one. Not into newbies and oldbies, but into different...subjects.

Perhaps the oldbies need to be more specific as to what they want in their forum, perhaps THEY, and not the newbies, need to come up with the rules for posting. Everyone could have access. This could (maybe) satisfy everyone.

Perhaps more strict moderating could solve the problems. Moderators could send standardized warning messages in the form of a PM to new members who average over 14 to 20 posts a week (I think that is a lot, maybe I'm wrong, my average is 7 a week). If the newbie fails to comply, ban their IP for three days. When they return, restart the process.

I guess in the end, what it comes down to, is we are all just going to have to deal with the bullshit.

I find it very unfortunate that Yufster has not posted here this week. I expect that she would have calmed down in time and become an excellent member (m0ds, you are working on that right? You will make sure she comes back? ). I'm sure all of this bickering is driving away even more cool headed newbies-with potential.

eh,
-junc

[Pumaman]

It's interesting - since this whole topic exploded, this forum has calmed down a lot. Look at the thread list - there are four days worth of threads on on the first page. It hasn't been like that in a long time.

So if people can carry on posting at the more sensible rate that the have been over the last few days, we may well not need to do anything after all.

[scotch]

I agree, it's certainly quietened down now, and there aren't any really bad posts or posters at the moment.  If the forums are to improve further it's going to take some effort from more responsible members to start some interesting threads now.

[Czar]

Well, to answer some of your statements:
I dont see any proof that the newbies would be offended in ANY way that they cant go in the oldies forum.Thats as for one.
And my opinion is that we DONT need a new forum, cause that is totally unnecessary, and not just because now gen gen is calmed down, but because if some oldie REALLY REALLY neads a thread that excludes newbies can always put a mark as [oldie thread].
Anyway the most reasonable post in the most less words i think MrColossal wrote. When you think about it, that will only be another forum to post stupid things, and who says a just cuz youre a oldie youre mature( right m0ds?    )... And yeah, if Goldmund, or anyone else needs a place to talk to the oldies, he can always make a forums by himself outside of ags, so the two dont get ?involved?.
Anyway thats all for now.

And yeah OT :  Did anyone notice a bug in the forum replying, i.e. when i write somthing, and then i press home so i want to correct something at the start of the line, when i use space or any letter, the sentence wont move forward.

edit: and btw i noticed some of this posts are now reality, i noticed jimmy has daily post counting, hes yellow  

[Jimi]

I think an oldies forum would be god for oldbies, but like someone said before, they'd forget about the other forums, and not help anyone. Also, most of the threads in this forum are started by newbies, so i was just thinking that the oldbies forum might have hardly anything going on in it.

[undergroundling]

I agree with Czar that if the oldies want a forum, they should just go start one on their own and leave the offical forums alone.  If a newbie really goes through the trouble of seeking out this separate board, then let them join, don't be exclusive, but make it clear that you have the power to ban them.  The oldie forum could be a super-moderated elitist forum if you want, but I think we should continue to allow freedom of expression on the offical boards and not have any restricted areas.

[Scid]

I'm con. It would not be fun to arrive here, as a newbie, and find out I'm being excluded from something on the grounds of being new. Especially if that forum was created for the sole reason of excluding people like me from conversation. I would be pissed off.

If we are going to have this, and I don't have much time to follow the conversation, so I don't know towards what conclusion this topic is heading for, I'd rather like the forum to be kept secret, and to be based on a postcount number - say anyone with over 250 posts can enter - rather than an invite only type. Whew. Big sentence, that

[Privateer Puddin']

sorry scid, but post count doesnt mean post quality

[Bob The Hun]

The problem with a post-count entry is that it would most likely end up with people posting as much as they can just to achieve the 250-post mark, making the forum multiple times worse. It also excludes people who may be an oldie when it comes to making games or contributions but only post when neccessary.

[Ginny]

At first I thought to ignore this thread since I wouldn't care much whatever the desicion, but if creating such an "oldies" forum would cause oldies who I respect very much and who's advice is very valuable, to leave or post much less in the other forums.

I think since the genral discussion forums is what seems to be causing the problem, it might be a good idea to simply make the rules stricter than they are now, and like someone said, maybe add more moderators, so that if topics get too heated or if there are personal attacks, this would be locked or deleted.
Closing down the general forum would be fine with me too, but then there wouldn't be anywhere to discuss things un-related to games, and just get to know people. IRC isn't very fit for this since it has a much lighter atmosphere, and it's practically impossible to discuss more than one topic at once, as opposed to threads where you post your view and then move on to the next thread. Not to mention the fact that not everybody has or can use IRC, and some don't want to.

Personally I think the best solution is just to stay clear of the general forum until it all calms down, but if stuff from the general forum affect the other forums than this isn't helping.

juncmodule: I disagree about warning someone if they post more than a certain number, cause even if someone posts 100-200 per week ( :o well maybe that is too much... ), these posts might all be constructive and might all add something to the community, in which case it's not a bad thing at all. It's when those posts are pointless and without anything to say or add that they should be considered too much. (Though when people post praise in the Critic's Lounge without adding anything it's not a bad thing, imagine if someone posted a perfect image and noone would reply cause they had nothing to critisice?).

That's all I have to say on the topic, and I just hope that if an oldies forum is created, that it wouldn't detract from the other forums.
Newbies aren't bad in general (being a sorta newbie, or maybe something in the middle, I hope I'm right hehe), it's only a few that actually make the general forums less interesting IMO (though I haven't visited the gen-forum much lately so I wouldn't know).

[Matt Brown]

okay, here's my take.


I am overall in favor of a oldbie forum. I was actually just part of a forum that split into oldbies+select few and everyone else forums...and it actually worked out quite well....for a while.
This forum split without telling anybody, and the oldies, (and a handpicked few, folks who hadnt been around much but the oldies liked.) just started another forum. they didnt talk about it. newbies didnt read it. It was great...until the forum got too crowded due to por selection procedures, and I left b/c it was stupid again.
after looking at the lessions I've learned from that, here's what I think we need to do to make it work.


1. Allow everybody to at least read the posts. This shows people the kind of conduct needed to come to such a place.

2. Have a clear-cut set of rules needed to join. Time requirments, game making criteria, etc. whatever they oldies think of. I personally think that active members of ezboard is a good way to start, then add on from there.

I'll edit more when I think of more.

I beg of CJ to not close the gen gen forum. I live in an area where there are very few kids my age that share interests with me. I have nowhere else to go to discuss politics, or learn about afairs from the european standpoints...from actual europeans. I learn a lot from talking with some of the oldies on this board, people who are often adults, and are much more educated then me. if we split, then at least keep the forum, and I pray, that prehaps the oldbies might come and vist once and again.


I hope that didnt sound stupid. I just got back from north carolina, and just wrote off the top of my head.

[makri]

I think many of the so called "oldbies" need to take a serious look into the ezboard topics and think if something has really changed. I don't think so. Segregating posters is a punch in the nuts of the community (including "oldbies") and the engine. Everyone loses.

If you really must to make a fair oldbie forum, let the poster decide whether they belong there or not. Put a very low post restriction there to weed out first time posters who don't know their way around the forums yet.

It doesn't really matter to what you base the discrimination; age, post count, demos finished, games finished, join date, whether they're been to mittens or not - most newbie posts are just as mature as most by those who would have the "elite" status.

[taryuu]

i think it's kinda funny that the supposed "elite oldies" have forgotten how inane the conversation used to get on ezboards.  what are you pissed off now that it's not you making an ass out of yourself?

if you want to have your own forum, then go make one!! you can have one up in running in less than half an hour!  and then you can have complete control over who posts, when they post it, what they post about.  

is it just me who figured this out?

[Las Naranjas]

Because the mere thought of this happening changed the current forums for the better removing any need for aforesaid forum.

[taryuu]

here's hoping

[magintz]

I think it would be a very good idea, but instead of "stopping" people from accessing the elite room it should be made avaliable to be seen by anyone, but can only be edited and used by the chosen few.

I'm not sure how it would be organised, whether it would be the eldest community members (people who've been on the forums and AGS the longest) or people who have contributed a lot?

"I have been around for a while now, I think it's just over 2 years now, but I havn't really contributed that much, only Jingle Bells and a crappy demo , whcih most n00bs post withing a month of joining, but I feel I am still a helpful member of the community, as I post every now and then, and give words of wisdom and encorougement on IRC."

I think there are quite a few people like me that could possibly not deserve it, so the organisation system would need to be checked, edited, double checked, confirmed etc... to make it a fair case for entry.

[Pessi]

Concluding by this thread, I'm thinking one of the problems we're having is that people aren't reading the thread completely. There's no chance for discussion when it's just several monologues in the thread.

Come on, interact! That's what makes forums great. It's no fun just stating your opinion after reading the original post and then disappearing. You should read what others say and disagree or agree with that. Otherwise you won't know whether to learn or teach.

I must add, there are people who also tend to go too much for the dialogue, posting one sentence each time.

And once again I'm back at the main issue: why do we have to stress ourselves out by teaching how to use the forums properly? Probably half of everyone's posts deals with this. And I think that is one of the issues why the oldbies want to have their own forum - there wasn't need for moderating or telling what people should post and what not to.

Makri and Taryy: I don't think the threads at Ezboard's forum were 'mature' either. They used to be though, in the beginning. When people just started to know each other better. And it wasn't THAT bad in the end either, but it's not something I'd call mature. No one has pointed out yet, (I think) that there was this very same discussion in the Ezboard's forums as well. And in fact, it was the immature way of discussion that got me resigning from the moderator's place at about the same time. If people can't chat with each other without constant moderating, I don't know if the discussions are worth it then.

SO PLEASE, DON'T POST ANY MORE SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO PICK THE MEMBERS FOR THE NEW FORUM. At least read the whole thread first so you can comment on other people's suggestions, for there are many. And there any many that have been suggested more than once!

I don't mean to sound harsh with this post. I hope I'm not attacking anyone or anything, because it's the last thing I want.