King's Quest III+ (call for testers)

[Radiant]

Hi there,

KQ3 enhanced!! Well, it had to happen sooner or later
I've been working on an enhanced version of the Sierra classic King's Quest III. The game has now progressed to a playable stage, and I would really appreciate everybody's opinion of it. In particular, that of testers and proofreaders.


This first public version allows you to play most of Llewdor, about fifty rooms or so. The plot has been enhanced and deepened (which is one of the things I'd like feedback on). Also there are more puzzles, and less items just lying on the floor. And Manannan is as bad as ever.
KQ3+ was created with AGS. uses the original AGI graphics (with a few new ones), but has a mouse-driven interface. Also, the music sounds a lot better in MIDI than it ever did on your PC speaker.


beta-4 Just a meg and a half! Downloadable version here.
(edit: this is the FOURTH beta)

(includes teleport cheat and the usual debugging features, with Insta-Logging (tm) as well)
Please find some bugs for me? Thanks!

[Radiant]

no it doesn't. At least not on my system. If you wait, you get the intro, and if you press ESC, you get the hallway of the wizard's house.

[TheGoldeagle]

Looks good so far. Downloading it...

[deltamatrix]

---------------------------
Adventure Game Studio
---------------------------
An error has occured. Please contact the game author for support, as this
is likely to be a scripting error and not a bug in AGS.
(ACI version 2.61.747)

(Room 11 script line 218)
Error: StartCutscene: already in a cutscene

....occurs when you empty the chamberpot.

Also, so far, when I re-entered the wizard house, gywdion went straight thru the door and it didn't open itself and I think I spotted a little mask error on the door frame.

EDIT: Another ALREADY! The game hung when I pressed esc to try and skip the opening. Maybe an infinite loop or something similar?

EDIT: How odd, third time run and now the game just gets stuck on the title. The III doesn't appear and it just sparkles.

EDIT EDIT: Ok I found the cause, it don't seem to like running at 640x400 however when I died by falling off the cliff and restarted, it hung at the title screen again.

When Gwydion fell off the cliff, he fell through the pathway where you enter the room. And there was no message for how and why you died.

When I fed the chickens, they gave no reaction. Don't they like the chicken feed?

An enhancement to suggest, make the house appear bigger on the outside. Its tiny!

Also I didn't like the music when Gywdion was exercising. Plain classical piano music is meant to soothe and relax, not energize you. The music needs to be rockier. Add some drums and bass to the midi if you can or choose another.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Error in the hallway when you look at the portrait, look for yourself and you'll see what I mean.

The note I took from manananns trashcan didn't have a description when I looked at it so I can't read it.

When you're outside the wizards house at night, the grass and tree below appear as though it is still daytime. Needs much darkening.

I couldn't work my way down the mountain, he kept falling even though I stayed on the path.

One more final thing. On the scrreen, please please please get rid of that AWFUL large rock that blocks the view of the path almost guaranting a fall. I hated that in the original!

I like the day/night idea, that is interesting.

[deltamatrix]

Two more bugs.

When you drink the test potion, when the death GUI appears, the mouse cursor doesn't reappear.

It seems that Manannan can magically appear when you are lookin under the bed.
The time for Manannans appearance started while Gywdion was MoveCharacterBlocking to the bed. Then the manannan theme played and the game hung. stuck on the busy cursor.

[Hollister Man]

You think they had 'rocky' music in fantasy games?  In fact, Gwydion can't hear the music anyway, so who cares?  I'll have to DL this one.

[dreammaster]

Absolutely brilliant new game.Ã,  Here's the results of day 1 of my beta testing:

Bugs
------
* If you leave the second floor of the house going down the stairs at the very right hand side of it (ex. at EGO 210,160), the screen flashes and then you suddenly re-enter the same room again
* The mouse disappears when you get the ending after drinking the potion of contentedness. This means you can't click on any of the buttons, so the game is effectively hung
* When suprising Manannan in the basement lab, you're meant to walk down most of the steps and then get killed when a pebble falls. However, most of the time Manannan notices you immediately and does the "You're up to no good" zap death routine and turns you to ashes. But then it tries to take you through the "pebble" death routine, with Alexander moving with a sitting down image. The result is that Alexander dies a second time, but the waiting hand is left on, meaning you can't click on any of the buttons, effectively hanging the game.

I think it's due to the timer for whether Manannan appears to kill you not being turned off immediately when you enter the lab room, resulting in it going off in the middle of the pebble death automatic walking down the steps
* Frequently when I start KQ3 the startup sequence hangs. The music continues until the point when the screen should change to the credits, and then just stops. The sparkling continues but thats it. This happens most frequently if I quickly start up KQ3 again after having to previously use the AGS abort function. It also frequently happens if I press Escape to try and bypass the startup sequence. It also happens after using the in-game Restart button
* Once when I was being stoned by Medusa via the telescope, Manannan appeared as I was turning to stone. It didn't screw up the death message, but the image for the stoned Alexander got replaced with Alexander as normal

Nitpicks
--------
* The walk icon should have it's clickable range extended down a bit so that you can click below the area picture (but above the action icons) to leave a screen to the south; currently I keep having to click multiple times because I don't click within the area picture
* In the entrance room of the house, the pathfinding doesn't work between the top of the stairs and the bottom. ie. I need to click on the landing and then click on the top of the stairs
* The look text for the portrait in the entrance room takes up two screens, and is split in the middle of the word "distinct"
* In the drink of contentedness ending text, "an wise" should be "a wise"
* In the kitchen's apple bucket use description it calls it a "basket"
* When you perform sweeping the kitchen as a task, it says "you're too busy sweeping"? Maybe a betterÃ,  Ã, message would be "You busily sweep the kitchen"
* A clipping problem - on the mountainside, if you stand at EGO position 86,88 and push PgUp (for NE travel), Alexander falls downards behind most of the mountain and then suddenly falls in front of the rocks at the bottom
* It would be better to have a more explicit death message when you fall off the mountainside at nighttime. I spent some time with both the cursor and keyboard trying to get past EGO position 90,90 before realising it was a built-in stop to prevent you from reaching the countryside too early.
* When you feed the chickens as your initial task and then click on the gate, you walk through the fence and open it from the inside
* When you've seen that there's something metallic on the top of Manannan's bedroom cabinet, if you click on the top of the cabinet with the hand, you'll move over to the cabinet but it will then say "You're not
close enough". You have to click a second time to get key. I presume the first message shouldn't happen.
* When you click the talk bubble on Manannan when he first appears to give you a task, it says "You feel pretty silly talking to a wizard". A more appropriate comeback from the wizard would be appropriate
* On the mountainside clipping errors occur around EGO positions 96,84 and 167,92
* The toadstool looks awfully white after picking it - ideally it should remain the same red and grey as it is when it's on the ground

Comments
-------------
* As a matter of personal preference, would it be possible to have the game controls at the top of the screen rather than the bottom? It's just that it breaks the convention of all previous games I've played - I keep moving the pointer to the top of the screen without thinking about it, then have to move to the bottom
* Speaking of the game controls, would it be possible to program in middle button/mouse wheel controls? Ie. the middle/mousewheel button toggling between walk and the last previously selected action, and the mouse wheel movements letting you cycle through the actions
* Places where I think a custom message would be appropriate:
Ã,  The second floor window at nighttime currently has no look message
Ã,  If you try using the knife on the stuck drawer in Manannan's bedroom (it would be logical for someone to try it to unstick the drawer)

EDIT: PS. I just read deltamatrix's post mentioning that he couldn't read the paper. This threw me at first until I realised I could "use" the paper to see it's contents. This action really should be mapped to look as well.

[deltamatrix]

I wouldn't call this game enhanced due to the MANY modifications.

This is just YOUR interpretation of the story. You haven't add things but CHANGED things.
This is more of an alternative version of KQ3.

Personally I like the main GUI where it is.

What am I supposed to do with the orb from the mirror?

[Radiant]

Hi there!

Thanks for the bug reports. I also noted that the autologger isn't working. I'll get on it.

I wouldn't call this game enhanced due to the MANY modifications.
This is just YOUR interpretation of the story. You haven't add things but CHANGED things.
This is more of an alternative version of KQ3.

That's true. I'll think of another name.
By the way I would like to know what people think of the plot so far with wizard, oracle, bandits and all.

What am I supposed to do with the orb from the mirror?

Nothing yet. You'll see in a later version that lets you play beyond plot point #14.

EDIT: Another ALREADY! The game hung when I pressed esc to try and skip the opening. Maybe an infinite loop or something similar?
EDIT: How odd, third time run and now the game just gets stuck on the title. The III doesn't appear and it just sparkles.

Yes, this is probably what went wrong with Blackbird as well.
I'm not actually sure what's causing this, but it seems that if you have multple cutscenes in sequence, an ESC can skip through any or all of them. What may be happening is that the game is playing through the intro and it hangs there, or something. I'll see what I can do.

When Gwydion fell off the cliff, he fell through the pathway where you enter the room. And there was no message for how and why you died.

Which cliff, exactly? You can press ^C to pop up gwydio'n's coordinates, that would help.

When I fed the chickens, they gave no reaction. Don't they like the chicken feed?

I don't think they did in the original, either. But it's a good idea.

An enhancement to suggest, make the house appear bigger on the outside. Its tiny!

Also a good idea, but my drawing skills aren't up to the task.

The note I took from manananns trashcan didn't have a description when I looked at it so I can't read it.

That's a bug. But try clicking it on gwydion to read it, for now.

I couldn't work my way down the mountain, he kept falling even though I stayed on the path.

Hate that path scene   you can ^T teleport to room 45 for now (that's bottom of path)

* The mouse disappears when you get the ending after drinking the potion of contentedness. This means you can't click on any of the buttons, so the game is effectively hung

Not really, you can use F7/F9 or L,R,Q keys.  But it's a bug of course.

* In the entrance room of the house, the pathfinding doesn't work between the top of the stairs and the bottom. ie. I need to click on the landing and then click on the top of the stairs

Correct. This room is a bit tricky because it's one of the few true 3-d rooms in adventure gaming. E.g. it is possible for one X,Y position of Gwydion, to mean two different locations on the stairs. What it does now is toggling walkables on/off when you step on the left hand part, thus you require two clicks. I'm open to bettter suggestions.

* When you perform sweeping the kitchen as a task, it says "you're too busy sweeping"? Maybe a betterÃ,  Ã, message would be "You busily sweep the kitchen"

Yes I used the msg from the original but it's less fitting in this way.

* On the mountainside clipping errors occur around EGO positions 96,84 and 167,92

Okay, thanks.

* The toadstool looks awfully white after picking it - ideally it should remain the same red and grey as it is when it's on the ground

<grin> correct. Both images are actually the mushroom from KQ1, as an inside joke.

* As a matter of personal preference, would it be possible to have the game controls at the top of the screen rather than the bottom? It's just that it breaks the convention of all previous games I've played - I keep moving the pointer to the top of the screen without thinking about it, then have to move to the bottom

At this point, I'm afraid not. It would mean moving the room graphics (and assorted walkable/behinds/etc) down thirty pixels, manually, in every room.

* Speaking of the game controls, would it be possible to program in middle button/mouse wheel controls? Ie. the middle/mousewheel button toggling between walk and the last previously selected action, and the mouse wheel movements letting you cycle through the actions

Sure. Good idea.

[dreammaster]

Stand by for day 2 of my testing experiences. 8)Ã,  I do want to point out right at the top here, that I found the wizard's lab room to be particularly buggy. I wasn't able to get to day 3 because of it, because the game kept prodding me go visit the lab. So I eventually used the teleporter to force it change to day 3 so I could continue testing.

Bugs
----
* Swim out into the ocean from the stream, and then return back to the previous screen - you won't stop swimming and will swim across the land
* On Night 2, not having tried to go into the basement before, I use the key on the safe to get the wand, and then immediately click the hand on the bookcase. The dialog sequence for opening the trapdoor is interrupted midway by the safe-opening sequence, even though I'm nowhere near it. It also reoccurs when I come back up from the basement.
* Attempting to get the toad splittle causes a fatal error "Room 25 script 233, Error: SetCharacterFrame: invalid frame specified"
* Clicking on any of the buttons or the book when in the close-up view of the spellbook causes the wait-hand cursor to appear and the game to hang
* Looking at the bookcase on the right-hand side of the lab causes a fatal error "Room 25 script line 131, Error: IsObjectOn: invalid object number"
* You can place the wand back in the safe when you're nowhere near it, although it doesn't actually get removed from your inventory
* When you look at Manannan in the observatory on Night 2, in addition to the description dialog you see a second blank dialog
* I'm not sure if it's a bug or not, but when the cat finally turns up on the stairs, I can't get some hair from it. Also, I'm not sure if there's meant to be a puzzle to getting past it; it keeps moving to intercept me and trip me up, and repeatedly going back down to the lab screen and returning doesn't get rid of it
* Going into the tavern, there's nobody there. Yet if I try to get the tankard on the counter, it says that the barmaid scowls at you
* Clipping problem - in the tavern, you can effectively walk on the table when it should be obscuring you
* Clipping problem - if you walk up to the fisherman, your body will be behind him, but your legs will be in front
* I can't get Night 2 to end without using the teleport cheat to force it to daytime - when I sleep it keeps complaining that I should check out the celler, which I've already done. But of course I can't read the spellbook with it hanging the game, and I can't see any way to get past the cat when it appears (since all my belongings have been previously stolen)
* Day 3, in the treehouse, the bin (which I'm presuming should have all my stolen items), doesn't - it's empty
* If you wake up the mugger in the treehouse, you can, if you're quick, then click on the bin and get the opening sequence, complete with "doing it quietly to prevent the mugger waking up"... he's already awake and chasing you
* The room description for outside the treehouse once again takes up two dialogs with a split in the middle of a word
* I can't get close enough to the flask outside the treehouse to get it. I'm not sure if this is intended as a puzzle or not (like navigating the mountainside at night). Unfortunately, I'm not able to get back all my possesions to try other objects
* If you wake up the mugger and immediately exit the treehouse, the mugger will suddenly be high up in the branches. You'll then immediately fall to the ground and die
* Going into the three bears house, you appear in the room by the fireplace, rather than by the front door
* Clipping problem at 92,137 of the bear's house - you walk behind a staircase pillar that you should be walking in front of
* Clipping problem at 112,112 of the upstair's 3 bears house - if you walk straight south to go downstairs, you walk in front of the landing graphics. Also, if you go down the stairs from 117,112, you get same problem as with the stairs in Manannan's house - the screen flashes and you're returned to the upstairs room. I presume the exit of the staircase top isn't properly aligned to the exit in the downstairs staircase.
* Leaving the 3 bears house, you suddenly find yourself in the top-left hand corner of the outside screen, and the door closes

Nitpicks
--------
* The oak tree room description screen is also two dialogs worth, with the first dialog cut in the middle of a word
* In the lab, why does it say "Manannan would notice the book is missing" if you just look at it. A better message would along the lines of "a dusty old tome rests on the table"
* Why aren't I able to talk to the fisherman? When I try it says he doesn't mind that I'm unable to speak
* The save/load dialog doesn't have a border with scrollbars. This means that with more than one screen worth of savegames, I have to manually use the keyboard to move through the list
* The description for the sleeping mugger in the treehouse says "They", but there's only one there.
* The firewood inventory graphic needs some work; I thought it was a cup to begin with
* The cookbook currently doesn't have a description
* The upstairs drawers in the 3 bears house needs some descriptions
* Given that there's the sitting down animations for the 3 chairs in the 3 bears house, you'd expect the upstairs beds to have a similiar animations if you use them

[Radiant]

Okay, beta-2 is now online:
http://www.liacs.nl/~psimoons/kq3b2.zip

Just about all bugs fixed that were mentioned so far, except for those in the post by dreammaster above since I'm just reading that now
In particular, the title screen crash is fixed. Or it should be.

[fluxmaster]

I disagree with deltamatrix's comment:  I think that this is an enhanced version because it basically keeps the same story while elaborating on certain things and adding more details.

I tried to log a bug, but it didn't get added to the log file, so I'll simply state it here:  In one case a long narrative message was split into two boxes, but the point at which the message was divided was not the natural point to divide the message.  It got cut off in the middle of a line, both syntactically and typographically, before being continued in a subsequent box.

Does this game have dead ends in it?  I am currently stuck at the point where Mannanan gives Alexander the cup to drink.  Without telling me the solution, can you tell me whether I can get past this point in the game or whether I have to load a saved game.

[iron_man]

hello Radiant

I am Zeus. Check my retouched pic
located at AGDI forums (Game making forum).

[dreammaster]

fluxmaster, you're not stuck. Keep at it.

[just a random]

hey guys, i'm new to the forums but not to the ags world.

i must say that this game so far looks amazing!!!!! the bugs that i have noticed have already been found and put on the forum.

just thought i would give my compliments to the creator


CAN"T WAIT TILL THIS ONE IS DONE

p.s. is there a website you have for this game?

[Radiant]

Flux -> logfile should work in the second beta (see link above). I understand your bug, but if you don't tell me where it happens I can't fix it.
The game is not supposed to have dead ends at all. However you can't currently play past plot point fourteen, which is the time you get sent to the countryside to get wood. That's because it's not finished yet. But yes, you can get past the red potion.

Ironman -> thanks!

Random -> no, I don't have a website (yet?) because there's nothign to put up there.

[dreammaster]

Well, it's time for the day 3 installment of by beta testing report.Ã,  :. Since I'm up to the stage of getting the firewood, I guess I'll just muck around some more in the first three days looking for bugs. BTW: todays bug report includes two fatal crashes of AGS itself, that you may want to pass on to "CJ".

PS: I switched over to using beta 2, so all these bug reports apply to it.

Bugs
----
* Attempting to pick up some acorns on Day 2 gives the fatal error "Room 62 script 174; Error: AnimateCharacter: invalid loop number specified"
* Any time you try talking to the wizard, you now get an appropriate response dialog, but then immediately after the old "You'd feel pretty silly talking to s wizard" dialog appears.
* That medusa is vicious! I left the desert to escape her, and it didn't stop her! She started chasing me across the countryside. Given the original KQ3, I'm assuming this is a bug
* If you travel between the oak tree and the screen south of it on the very left hand side of the screen, you can get stuck in a loop of being bounced between the two rooms. It's easiest to demonstrate if you go north to the oak screen from x position 7.
* Clipping error - you walk in front of the big tree stump in room 72 (ex. at EGO 132,150)
* Clipping error - if you walk east of the cliff in room 74 from 198,67, you start falling through the ground, before been moved to the beach screen to die
* The position you walk to before opening the door outside the general store isn't anywhere near the actual door
* When you pick up the fish that the fisherman has caught, you then immediately automatically walk south off of the pier
* If you climb up the ladder on the pier, you can then no longer walk. You can, however, click on the ladder again and walk after climbing back down the ladder
* Looking at the drawers in the 3 bear's bedroom now tends to cause a fatal error "Global srcipt line 90 Error: Cannot display message with extended characters in SCI font". Either that or nothing is displayed. This also happens if I try and look at the empty bottle
* A doozy occurred when I tried clicking the fish on the dog, when it was outside the general store. It also occurred when I tried clicking an object on myself in the same screen as well:

---------------------------
Illegal exception
---------------------------
An exception 0xC0000005 occured in ACWIN.EXE at EIP = 0x0042B4A5 ; program pointer is +6, ACI version 2.61.747, gtags (10,10)

AGS cannot continue, this exception was fatal. Please note down the numbers above, remember what you were doing at the time and notify CJ on the Tech forum.

(Global script line 73)
---------------------------

I also got another fatal AGS error when I try using the hand on the empty bottle:

---------------------------
Illegal exception
---------------------------
An exception 0xC0000005 occured in ACWIN.EXE at EIP = 0x004491B0 ; program pointer is +1007, ACI version 2.61.747, gtags (0,7)

AGS cannot continue, this exception was fatal. Please note down the numbers above, remember what you were doing at the time and notify CJ on the Tech forum.

(Global script line 2571)
---------------------------


Nitpicks
--------
* The windows for Alexander's bedroom and kitchen at night don't currently have a description
* There's no description for looking at the milk
* The cinnamon sticks graphic could use a little work
* I'm surprised that Manannan doesn't kill you for carrying around the piece of paper you stole from his study trashcan. Even if he doesn't think you can read.
* I'm wondering what the deal is with the eagle feather dropping. Unlike the original, it only drops the feather into the river, and no matter how much I try and grab it (even at low speed), it always says I'm in the wrong place. And even if I follow the river after it, it's gone. I hope it's not a dead-end situation, despite your earlier reassurances, if you can't get it immediately


On a final note, I think I've just found a newly introduced easter egg. One time when I went upstars in the 3 bears house, there was a weird character on the bottom right-hand bed. It vanished after a secondÃ, 

[fluxmaster]

Bug report:  When the wizard places the cup on the table and tells Alexander to drink, Alexander pretends to drink it but instead spills the liquid on himself.  Then, in an attempt to distract the wizard and make him believe that the potion is working, Alexander places food on the table for the wizard to eat.  The wizard eats the food, but, as soon as he is finished eating, the cup appears on the table again, and the wizard orders Alexander to drink it.  The wizard then anihilates Alexander.

[fluxmaster]

Okay, I've just downloaded Beta-2.  Are the saved games from Beta-1 supposed to work with Beta-2?  I tried to load a couple of saved games, but in each case I got the following message:

An error has occured.  Please contact the game author for support, as this is likely to be a scripting error and not a but in AGS.
(ACI version 2.61.747)

Error: Restore_Game: Game has changed (inv), unable to restore position

It would be a nuissance to have to start the game over from scratch every time a new beta comes out.

In my own project (which is not AGS), I have stored a version number in each saved game file, so that, during development, whenever I change the format of the saved game file the game will read the version number and still recognize old saved game file formats.  This feature can easily be removed from the final version.

[dreammaster]

Hey, fluxmaster, it's probably just as well to start from scratch with each beta. After all, there's no guarantee that any fixes that Radiant has made won't have any adverse affects, so it's a good practice to retest everything again. And given that he's already stated that the current beta doesn't let you go beyond plot point #14, it's only a 3-day (in-game) timefrime to be testing. Not exactly the whole game yet.

[fluxmaster]

Okay, another bug:Ã,  I'm playing àŸ2 and have started from the beginning.Ã,  The wizard (I can't remember how to spell his name, that's why I keep saying "the wizard") tells Alexander to clean his (the wizard's) bedroom, so Alexander proceeds to the wizard's bedroom.Ã,  Since there is no broom there to click on, I first try clicking on the rug, but I get a message that the rug is too heavy to move.Ã,  Then I click on the chamberpot.Ã,  Alexander first empties the chamberpot, then makes the bed, then empties the chamberpot a second time.Ã,  Now I know that, with American toilets, it is often necessary to flush twice because toilet manuacturers are forbidden by law to make the reservoirs large enough (in order to conserve water), but I didn't think that this problem existed with chamber pots.Ã,  But, after the second flush, the game terminates with the following error message:

An error has occured. . . . (same as before)

(Room 11 script line 258)
Error: EndCutscene: not in a cutscene

Since the game has terminated, I am unable to produce a logfile.

(This kindda reminds me of the scene in LSL1 where Larry flushes the toilet, and . . . )

[lightman]

(Room 11 script line 258)
Error: EndCutscene: not in a cutscene

I get the same error.

Is it just me or is the wizard a lot more aggressive than in the original?

Anyway, I like playing KQ3 with a mouse interface. Cool.

[dreammaster]

Day 4 bug reports. I'm starting to have trouble finding new bugs, which is a good sign. I guess I'll have to wait for beta 3, and see if it fixes all the errors I've already reported.Ã,  8) And hopefully some more of the plot in this excellent remake implemented.

Bugs
----
* If you feed the chickens, and then click on the gate, you will now open the gate from the outside (except you still go "through" the fence). Also, doing so seems to screw up the gate opening logic, as if you now click on the gate you'll walk through the gate, open it, and then walk back into the pen!
* When in the chicken pen, you can click on the front door and walk through both the gate and part of the wall
* On the first day, just after I finish dusting the study, Manannan pops in. But then, nothing.. he just stands there. He doesn't tell me anything. I can't dust again, so I only have the option of leaving the room, and being punished by Manannan.
* Manannan's bedroom cupboard opens when you click on it, irrespective of where you are in the bedroom
* Experimenting with the spellbook, I clicked the mouth icon on a spell to start it. But then there's no way to stop trying to make the spell or close the spellbook short of using the AGS Alt-X sequence
* There's no use description for the toad spittle
* I now seriously think that finishing night 2 is a bug - I do everything I can in the lab now - get the toad spittle, the empty bottle, and look through the spell book. But returning to bed, it keeps waking me up saying "I should figure out a way to open the trapdoor". I already have! Testing further, it seems that trying to sleep is what triggers the cat to appear, and teleporting somewhere else within the house and sleepng again day 2 is finished. So the question is how to deal with the cat.. objects like the knife won't work (and should, BTW, have a response), and currently the use icon doesn't do anything, nor does leaving the room multiple times get rid of it. I'm at a loss..
* When I say day 2 is finished, I mean sleeping gives me the daytime showing in the window. But when I leave the room, I'm back to nighttime again. And Mannanan accosts me and forces me to sleep. I'm not sure whether this is a side effect of the teleporting away from the cat, but I don't think so
* In room 74 at 237, 164 if I walk west I suddenly get moved to the screen to the south
* If I swim out far enough, I see a seehorse with a saddle (perhaps a KQ2+ easter egg). I click the hand onÃ,  it, and as I get near it disappears, but it still complete the use sequence, with a "touch" error
* When Alexander gets eaten by a shark, after his disappearance and the shark leaves, he appears again, swimming.
* In room 94, you can't leave the screen to east when you're in the river. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to
* Clipping problem - in room 84, you can see water movement through the right-hand bird

Nitpicks
--------
* Mouse wheel support in the save/load dialog would be useful, particularly when we have many savegames
* Most rocks across the countryside don't have a use description. It would be natural for a player to be trying them since one of the spells require it

PS: If someone figures out a legitimate way to get past the cat on night 2, please, let me know

[fluxmaster]

Bug report:

V2 room 63 [30,156]: Clicking mushroom on tree says can't chop tree down with knife

V2 room 84 [135,160]: Name of last saved game deleted is inadvertantly displayed



(actually, this is the name of the last saved game that I tried to delete; another saved game was deleted instead.)

V2 room 11 [66,140]: When I try to delete a saved game, it always deletes the most recently saved game, not the one that I selected.Ã,  This happens regardless of whether I selected the saved game with the keyboard or the mouse.Ã,  When I try to delete multiple saved games, only the first is deleted.Ã,  This is particularly frustrating because I like to save the game every few minutes, or sometimes more often, but when I do that I run out of saved games and cannot delete the older ones.

V2 room 64 [166,127]: When I click on the door, Alexander moves into another position before opening the door.Ã,  This would be nitpicking if he only moved out of the way a little, but I think that he moves too far out of position.

V2 room 47 [172,132]: Alexander is not killed when he doesn't pay for the fish oil.Ã,  This was probably intended and so is not a bug, but I expected that Alexander would have to pay for what he takes.

A general observation is that, as in the original, there are times when Alexander must wait around with nothing to do.Ã,  Is this correct, or when Alexander is waiting around is there something that he is supposed to be doing but I've just missed it?Ã,  If waiting is required, there should be some way to bypass the waiting.Ã,  In this game, does time pass by the clock or by screen changes?Ã,  In QFG1, you could make time advance by moving back and forth between screens.Ã,  In later QFG games I think there was a feature where you could wait a certain number of minutes.Ã,  If waiting is required in this game, it would be nice to have a feature where you could wait until the next significant event.Ã,  Or is waiting not required in this game, in which case I'm just missing what I'm supposed to be doing?

[dreammaster]

Hiya Fluxmaster, I'd like to make two comments about your last bug report:

Firstly, with regards to the shopkeeper, he's afraid of Manannan. In fact, one of the descriptions (I think it's the look one) says to the effect "He's never asked for payment since Manannan made it clear that he wouldn't pay for goods". As his lackey, this applies to you. That's why he's so subservient if you try talking to him.

The second point is with regards to time. This remake seems geared more to completion of plot points than time. I actually prefer it this way. It means you can't accidentally forget to do something and then complain later on (the whole issue of dead-ends in games). Like for instance on day 2.. you can't finish the day until after you've bought the fish oil like Manannan tells you to.

Admittantly, there could always be the problem of figuring out what you're supposed to be doing, but that's where subtle writing and handling of the plot comes in.

PS: This is directed to Radiant, but Fluxmaster mentioning the mushroom on a tree made me think of it, could you add a Monty Python reference if you try to click the fish on a tree? Something like "What are you trying to do? Cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring?". That what would be awesome. 

[Radiant]

Hi there,

thanks for the bug reports! I must say you're very thorough. That's good!
Now uploaded is beta-3. This fixes all bugs I've seen since I've last read this message board, which is indicated by my last post above and the two posts directly underneath.

The flask in the top of the tree is, indeed, a puzzle. So is the cat. Both are solvable as of beta-3.

Spoiler

The cat doesn't like water. Is there water somewhere in the lab?

[close]

By the way the game is not supposed to have dead ends. It is of course possible that there are some but in that case they are bugs. I'm trying to avoid situations like in the original where you couldn't defeat the dragon if you had wasted the storm potion somewhere earlier, or left it under your bed, or didn't make it in the first place.

Due to the way AGS handles saved games (e.g. a direct memory dump), they are almost never compatible across versions. This is also why sending me saved games to demonstrate errors is not particularly useful. You can use the teleport cheat to help yourself. If people want more cheats I'll consider them. But one of the main points of beta-testing is restarting a lot and seeing what happens.

I've been unable to reproduce the errors when you
- click the fish on the dog (or on Gwydion)
- click hand on empty bottle
- look at the bears' drawers
- look at the empty bottle
In spite of the message you got, the problem is probably in my scripting. It seems that I had already fixed them before I got your message, could you please check if they still occur on your system?

mousewheel support is on my to-do list.

Lightman -> somewhat, yes he does order you around a lot more, in the original it was rather easy to defeat him after doing one chore, since he leaves on a journey for the next half-hour of game time or so, and like KQ2 the game can be solved within that time.

Dreammaster -> ah, more bugs, thanks. The spellbook isn't functional yet, I'll let you know when it is. Funny that you should mention the herring quote, because I think it's already there

Fluxmaster -> As Dreammaster states, you don't have to pay in the store. I'll make that more clear in the future. Also there's not supposed to be any waiting in the game,  the plot advancements simply depend on your actions. Okay, there are a few spots where you have to wait until the wizard shows up to tell you what to do next, but 1) this should only take 20 seconds or so, and 2) you can always go and find him, his location is not random.
If at any point it isn't clear what you're supposed to do to advance the plot, let me know.
Oh, the exception is that when the plot point is doing a chore, if you don't do the chore within four minutes or so, Manannan will show up and punish you and advance the plot anyway.

In general, the game needs a LOT more use-object-on-hotspot responses. If you think a particular combination makes sense, or gives room for a cool quote, let me know please.

Thanks *masters!

[dreammaster]

Congratulations on the very prompt release of the third beta, Radiant. Just when I was wondering if it was worth starting again from scratch to look for more bugs, you come out with beta 3.Ã, 

Below are bugs I've found in beta 3 tonight:

Bugs
----
* You now start with a cinannon stick. Is this intended? Previously, I had to go down to the shop to get one
* Clicking on Restart now gives Global script 1501; Error: ResetRoom: cannot reset current room
* Manannan still has a tendancy to appear and then do nothing. I'm presuming he should disappear again after a brief period
* Going outside at night, I notice that there's now a chicken outside (previously they disappeared at night). But, for example, clicking on the corn says there's no point when the chickens are inside the coop.
* When the dream sequence starts on Night 1, you get an error "Error seeking entry! (please note room number 19, and from where exactly you entered it"
* When you're forced to sleep at the end of night 2, you get the same error again, only this time it's "room 29"
* At daybreak on day 2, you can enter Manannan's bedroom, and with him right there ordering you to get out, you can click on the broken glass to initiate the cleanup sequence, with slightly screwed up results eg. Manannan disappears from the bedroom, and whilst the cleanup sequence finishes, the glass fragments remain; you can click on them again, which causes a fatal error this time
* The chamber pot error that others have reported is still present
* I think that it's poor planning that you have to sleep on night 2 to trigger the cat appearing. It means that it erraneously tells you, when it wakes you up, that you still haven't figured out a way to open the trapdoor, even if you've already found a way
* Also related to night 2 sleeping, if you go to the lab before sleeping, there's always the possibility that you'll have already gotten the item you need to get the past the cat and have hidden it under the bed (confidentally expecting the night to end). Thus, if you go back to the lab to see if there's anything you missed, you'll be in a dead end situation since you no longer have it on you. A better solution overall would be, IMHO, to also trigger the cat appearance when the player picks up the item, thus giving the option of skipping the first sleep altogether. And if you go to sleep having visited the lab, but not having got the item, you could give an alternate wake up message, such as "You wake up with the feeling that there's still more you could do in the lab".
* Given the explicit warnings about being seen with the key, I thought I had to sneak it back to the top of Manannan's closet before he noticed it was missing. But there's currently no response dialog for that action. I mean, given the fact that it only appears at night-time (witnessed by the fact that it's not there on day 3 if you didn't pick up the previous night), you'd think the wizard is actively using it to open his own safe. Which would make it sensible to allow the player to replace it as soon as he can on day 3. Likewise for trying to replace it at night time
* Leaving the 3 bears house produces another "error seeking entry" error
* I can't even get into the treehouse now; when I reach the screen at the top of the rope ladder I get a fatal error: Room 46 script line 32; Error: MoveCharacter: character not in current room
* There are still problems with swimming and then getting out of the water. In beta 3, you start walking in place once you're out of the water, and when moving between rooms you briefly flicker to a swimming animation.

Nitpicks
--------
* When Manannan is sleeping in his bed, there's a brief flash of yellow that keeps happening. I wonder if this is a graphic glitch or it's meant to indicate another item?
* Most of the inventory items still don't have a use response. Maybe a simple default response like "You can't use it directly"
* I notice that scrolling arows have been added to the save/load dialogs. Could you add a repetitive scrolling if the user holds the mouse down on one of them?


PS: The previous fatal AGS errors no longer occur. Kudos. Also, I already managed to figure out the cat puzzle solution on my own. Kudos again for a really challenging puzzle (although there is the dead-end problem I mention in bugs). Given the treehouse error, I guess I'll wait for beta 4 to solve getting the flask.Ã,  Ã, :'(

[fluxmaster]

Bug report (version 3):

Previoiusly reported bugs not fixed:Ã,  Chamberpot emptied twice, clicking mushroom on tree, saved game name inadvertantly displayed.

Newly discovered bugs:

V3 room 22 [236,136]: I get the following message while dreaming:



I can't remember exactly what I did to get that message, but I think I clicked on something (inventory, perhaps) or struck a key.

V3 room 22 [235,134]: While in the inventory screen, clicking on the milk with either the hand icon or the eye icon yields a message about cinnamon sticks.

V3 room 47 [172,132]: Error: No message for "Look at milk" (please log me.)Ã,  Ditto for "Touch fish oil".

Another thing is that, when I wake up on the second day, the wizard orders me to make breakfast, but there isn't enough time to hide the orb under the bed, save the game (yes, I do like to save often!) and then get to the kitchen to make breakfast for the wizard before the wizard punishes Alexander for not making breakfast.Ã,  I would at least like to be able to complete the assigned task without being punished.

There are also times when Alexander encounters the wizard, the wizard has nothing to say to him, yet, when Alexander leaves the screen, the wizard punishes him for leaving his presence.Ã,  I assume that this is intended.

Regarding waiting, I'm glad that this game is event-based rather than time-based, since I can't stand waiting around for something to happen.

Okay, now here is something which I am not sure whether it is a bug or a puzzle that I'm unable to solve, but since other people have been able to get past this point, then it must be passable.Ã,  I have gotten the fish oil from the store, but I am unable to give it to the wizard.Ã,  When I try to give it to him, I get a message, "Keep your fish oil to yourself."Ã,  Then the wizard punishes Alexander for failing to get the fish oil.Ã,  Previously, whenever the wizard gave Alexander a task to accomplish, the wizard would acknowledge the completion of the task as soon as he encountered Alexander.

So at this point I don't know whether there's something else that I must do before giving the fish oil to the wizard.Ã,  I thought that perhaps the reason was that I teleported back to the house from outside the store, so I tried walking back to the path that leads up the mountain, but every time I got robbed by the bandits.Ã,  I tried going to the tree where, in the original version, I could recover my stuff, but there is no rope to pull.Ã,  The bears aren't home, there's nobody in the tavern, so there doesn't seem to be anything else to do in town just yet.Ã,  I tried pouring the fish oil into a cup, placing it on the table or on the wizards desk, but nothing works.

So my question is, is there another puzzle that I must solve before I can give the fish oil to the wizard?Ã,  If not, is there something else that is preventing the wizard from acknowledging that I have fetched the fish oil?Ã,  Was this intended, or is there some non-obvious thing that I have to do that is a design flaw that should be fixed?

[deltamatrix]

I'd like to withdraw my comment about this game not being KQIII+. IT IS!

Everything in the game has greater depth. I think this new structure is pretty good even though it ain't flexible like in the original but it seems easier and more interesting somehow.

Saying that, this leads to another possible advantage, KQ2VGA completely destroyed the value of KQ2.
I don't think this will as many may prefer the original.

Gonna test beta 3 now.

[dreammaster]

fluxmaster, you never get to give the fish oil to Manannan. If you experiment, you'll see that get it's the trigger for the thieves attacking you and taking your posessions. Plotwise, that's a good introduction for them; the next day (technically several days hence), a sub-thread becomes locating them and getting your stolen items back.

As far as day 2 goes, once you've finished your punishment for not having the fish oil (well, not anymore), it should move on to dinnertime for Manannan, and then night 2 begins.

[dreammaster]

I'm running low on finding any more bugs in beta 3. Below are the few more that I've managed to find:

Bugs
----
* Room 74 could still use some clipping fine tuning. I can walk to 217,72; a point where Alexander barely has one foot on solid ground
* Medusa as a statue has no use action (having used stuff pockets to get the mirror; I haven't figured out where it's hidden in the remake yet)
* The medusa chase music plays if you return to the desert scene where you stoned Medusa. Is this intended?
* You should be able to use the jar of water in the desert to stave off dying of thirst
* I don't think the "dying of thirst" in the desert countdown is being properly reset when you leave the desert. I was near collapsing when I left the desert, and got an immediately warning dialog the moment I re-entered it
* When the treehouse rope ladder is down, you can walk right through it
* There's no look or use description for the spiderweb strand
* I enter room 94 at 158,57 I then click to move south to 158,92, but instead Alexander turns and leaves the screen to the north


PS: Loved the Harry Potter reference when trying to deal with the snake. 

[fluxmaster]

More bugs:

V3 room 25 [230,114]: Clicking eye on oak table splits message unnaturally
V3 room 15 [232,138]: *Error* No message for 'touch cat' (log me please)
V3 room 25 [196,137]: *Error* no message for 'touch toad spittle' (log me please)
V3 room 25 [196,137]: *Error* no message for 'touch jar' (log me please)

I also got the following errors:

An error has occured. . . . (Same as before)

(Global script line 1501.)
Error: ResetRoom: cannot reset current room

* error seeking entry!
(please note room number 29, and from exactly where you entered it)

I'm not sure, but I think that both of the above errors occured in Alexander's bedroom while sleeping or clicking on the bed.

I got stuck at the part with the cat on the stairs.  I know that there's a spoiler posted in this thread, but I prefer to solve it myself.  I tried all the obvious things--talking to the cat, touching the cat, clicking the three objects that I found in the lab on the cat, climbing the wall, pulling the torch out of its socket and setting the cat on fire--but none of them worked.  So, for the moment I have teleported past the cat, but I'm going to continue to try to figure out that problem on my own.

At this point I'm stuck at the part where the wizard tells Alexander to fetch firewood.  I have nothing to chop down the firewood with.  Reliant, could you answer the following question:  Did teleporting past the cat bypass a trigger, so that the firewood puzzle is not soluble at this point?

I tried the bears' house, fetched the one object that I could find inside, and upon leaving the bears' house got the following message:

V3 room 73 [160,122]: *error seeking entry room number 73

There were numberous other objects which, when clicked, gave the message "*Error* no message for '<object>' (log me please)", but I haven't logged all of them.  Do you basically already know what these are, or should I log each and every one?

Some general observations:  Although I like the fact that the game has no dead ends, I don't like the fact that the game is so linear that the puzzles can only be solved in a preset order.  But I suppose that to make the game non-linear or to allow more freedom would probably introduce dead ends, so perhaps there's nothing to be done about that.  So I agree with deltamatrix's comment that this game will not destroy the value of the original, because the original gives the player the freedom to complete tasks in different orders.

[Radiant]

-- noted --
I'll be back soon.

[Radiant]

Dreammaster -> no, you shouldn't start with a cinnastix, and Manannan should indeed disappear again. The cat appearing you mention is actually a bug.
Repetitive scrolling on the up/down buttons is, I believe, not actually possible in AGS, but I'll look into it.

Fluxmaster -> Hm, maybe I should remove the teleport cheat DM is correct, you can't actually give him the fish oil.
The firewood puzzle isn't solvable at this point, period. That's plot point fourteen. (well, technically you can find wood somewhere)

Messages '*error seeking entry' have nothing to do with what you did earlier or what you're carrying, the only relevant information to those errors is where exactly you came from and where you were going.
Messages '* no message for <touch/look> <thing>' - for inventory items, I am aware of these because I have a neat list in the source code. If, however, they occur when clicking on a hotspot (e.g. the windows at night, in earlier betas) I would appreciate hearing from them.

Regarding linearity. That's a very good point. Up to now most of your comments have been technical, which is highly useful since there are plenty of bugs at this point. However I would also appreciate story-based comments from anybody who has an opinion. It's difficult to make things non-linear. For instance, I wanted the thieves to steal your inventory at some point, so that the player is forced to get them back. That's linear. Also the player must be guaranteed to carry something important at that time, or he could just ignore the puzzle.
Note that KQ3 original is actually very linear as well, only this is disguised by the fact that there really aren't that many puzzles in the game. In Llewdor, all you can do is 1) find the lab, 2) get ingredients, 3) defeat medusa, 4) defeat spider, 5) get your stuff back from robbers, 6) make spells, 7) defeat wizard and 8) join the ship. 3, 4 and 5 are optional. 1 and 2 are interchangeable. Other than that, the order is {1, 2} -> 6 -> 7 -> 8. After that, the game gets strictly linear as you travel.
That said, I would like some branches in KQ3+. I have several thoughts about optional puzzles, and note that you can do certain things at any time, e.g. dealing with the fisherman (okay, that isn't much of a puzzle, I agree). Dealing with the bears would also be nice as a do-when-you-want-it puzzle. What do I mean by that? Oh, I just thought the bears wouldn't leave their cottage open and unlocked when there's robbers afoot

[dreammaster]

Please don't remove the teleporter. I admit that it has the potential for abuse, but I've found it invaluable for getting to areas quickly for testing. And not just for getting down the mountain in the absense of the magic map.

A few minor issues found today, nothing major:

* V3 room 83 [25,87]: Clipping error - you can walk through the rock
* V3 room 84 [16,153]: Clipping error - you walk in front of the black rock
* Desert - Manannan will rarely appear briefly as you wander the desert, but clicking the talk icon on anything else on the screen will say "there's nobody to talk to". A talk response for Manannan would be good for if the player is fast enough.. even something simple like "He simply looks at you without responding"
* If you swim east from the end of the pier, then west, you don't return to the pier

[fluxmaster]

Latest bug found:

V3 room 85 [203,117]: Returning from a swim, Alexander walks in place.

When Alexander goes swimming in the ocean and returns to shore, when he gets on shore and stops he walks in place.Ã,  If I try to move him, he swims on land.Ã,  Stopping him, he walks in place again, and, moving him, he continues to swim on land.Ã,  This happens when he enters the shore from the small stream.



In the original Kings Quest games, it was fun to use the teleport feature to teleport the main character from water to land and watch him swim on land, or from being transported through the air to land and watch him fly on land.Ã,  But in this game it happened without using the teleport feature.

I used the spoiler to get past the cat (that was a very difficult puzzle), and I've gotten as far as trying to find firewood, which Radiant says is as far as you can go in àŸ3.Ã,  However, dreammaster has written about solving the Medusa puzzle and getting into the treehouse.Ã,  Does the Medusa puzzle have a different solution from the original?Ã,  I couldn't find the wizard's hand mirror, so I tried using the broken glass on the Medusa while facing away, but that hasn't worked so far.Ã,  Do I have to do it very quickly?Ã,  I've also tried reaching into the hole in the tree to deploy the ladder, but nothing happened.Ã,  I went back to the original game to make sure that I was at the same tree.Ã,  Is the treehouse in the same tree as in the original?Ã,  Is a different action needed to get to the treehouse?

A general observation that I've made is that the original game was difficult overall, because I spent a lot of time just figuring out what I was supposed to be doing, but this game is extremely easy, except for a few places where it is extremely difficult.Ã,  Most of the time it is just too obvious what the player is supposed to do, but I'm not sure whether that is because of the linearity or simply due to the fact that I've already played the original.Ã,  Some of the new puzzles that you've added, however, are quite difficult.Ã,  It's difficult for me to comment on the overall difficulty of the game, since I've played the original and know what to expect.Ã,  If you could find someone who's never played the origial to play this game, perhaps he could give you a good idea as to the difficulty level.Ã,  Better yet, if he could play this game first and play the original later, and if he said that this game was difficult overall but that the original was relatively easy, then that would refute my comments about most of this game's being too easy.

[Radiant]

Yes, you can kill the medusa. But if you look at the glass shard, you'll notice it's not particularly reflective. You can also get in the treehouse but you can't take your stuff yet (not implemented yet in B3).

You have an interesting point about the original vs the remake.
Might I state that most people found the original difficult, because the first time they played it they didn't have the documentation? (true in my case, plus I was eight at the time and didn't know much english then, I didn't get the legal version of the game much later). With the manual, it becomes rather easy to find all the ingredients since they're just there, and make the spells as described. That accounts for about 140 of the 210 points.
I believe what you're saying is that KQ3+ is too easy because you just have to do what the wizard tells you. That's a good point. But bear in mind that several parts of the game are as yet missing, and of course the point in defeating the wizard is doing what he does not tell you. For instance, did you get the fish yet? What about the salt? Needle? (I'd add snakeskin and fly wings, but they aren't available yet in your version; plus there will be the question of how you're going to get out of your room at night again, since Manny will be locking it in the future)
That said, suggestions are welcome. For instance I haven't been able to think of a good solution to the spider puzzle, because the original solution is found by most players as they just start flying around the countryside for fun, and then suddenly the puzzle is solved.
Of course they shuold be able to fly around just for fun, but solving puzzles should at least require some conscious thought.
Another question - is the cat puzzle unfair? It seems to stump a lot of people, whereas I intended it to be simply solvable by looking around in the lab. Or is it that people just assume the puzzle isn't solvable yet because it's a beta?

Thoughts welcome!

[fluxmaster]

Radiant, can you answer my questions from my previous post:Ã,  Do the treehouse and Medusa puzzles have the same solution as in the original or different solutions?Ã,  Because I am unable to find the rope to pull to deploy the ladder, and I am unable to find anything to polish the piece of glass with (although I just started looking a few minutes ago.)

I wouldn't call the cat puzzle unfair, just very difficult.Ã,  One thing that I might say, though, is that I believe that there is a message to the effect that you don't need anything else on the shelves at the moment--that would lead me to abandon the shelves as a place to look for the solution.Ã,  I don't remember the exact message, but you may want to reword that message so as not to discourage the player from looking there.

[dreammaster]

Fluxmaster, as I said in my previous post, I killed off Medusa by stuffing my pockets to have all items available. Admittantly there's the potential to ruin the puzzles, but I wanted to properly search the desert for any bugs, and couldn't with that blasted Medusa stoning me all the time. Interesting comment from Radiant - that you can kill Medusa legitimately in this beta; now I'll have something to occupy me until the next beta comes out.Ã,  8)

As a general statement about the remake, it is more regimented in that it won't let you do something before you know about it. For example, you can't open the trapdoor level until you've seen Manannan do it. That raises a point. When you click on the oak tree hole without knowing that it's important it says "there's nothing important there". IMHO, It might be better to say something like "You briefly consider sticking your hand into an unknown hole, but don't want to run the risk of your fingers being bit off".

[Radiant]

Fluxmaster -> Medusa has the same solution, yes. The treehouse is still there, only the trick is that while you know where it is, Gwydion does not. That's a hint
(you don't polish the piece of glass; if you take a broken bottle and polish it, it won't become reflective. But it's a good idea, I'll add some text indicating that. What you should do is find the mirror, only you can't get it yet in B3, so you must 'stuff pockets' to get it. This will be better implemented in B4).

As to the cat puzzle, I took the list of things you tried and added a number of texts for those to nudge the player in the right direction. That should help.

In general, if you try something (in particular, use <item> on <hotspot>) and you think it needs a response, let me know! (other than basic responses, such as 'you cannot do that')

Dream -> Now that you mention it I'm not fully sure that you can legit kill Medusa in B3 (I'm at beta 3.75 here and I'm not fully sure which parts I added in B3). So don't spend too much time on it yet

Good point both on the look-at-shelf and put-hand-in-hole stuff.



> There are also times when Alexander encounters the wizard, the wizard has
> nothing to say to him, yet, when Alexander leaves the screen, the wizard
> punishes him for leaving his presence.  I assume that this is intended.

Yes, it is. After all, walking out on someone is impolite. And Manny
is just one mean bastard


The wizard sometimes appears and says nothing relevant (i.e. 'its him again'
or 'his stare is annoying')... he should of course disappear afterwards.
If he doesn't, please tell me /when/ exactly this happened (i.e. morning,
night, etc, and what your last order from the wiz was)


> When Manannan is sleeping in his bed, there's a brief flash of yellow that
> keeps happening. I wonder if this is a graphic glitch or it's meant to indicate
> another item?

Assuming you mean the brief flash on top of the right-hand closet, then yes
that's meant to indicate another item (to wit, the brass key). If not, please
tell me what and where.

[fluxmaster]

That's the disadvantage of playing the remake of a game the original of which I've already played--I think I already know what to do.

I've used the "stuff pockets" to defeat the Medusa, but I'm still trying to figure out how to get the clue to the treehouse that I already know.

Here is one further point--and this is really nitpicking--but when you look at Llewdow through the telescope you should be seeing things from a reverse angle, since you're looking from the opposite direction.Ã,  It's not difficult to redraw the scenes from a reverse angle.Ã,  As I've said before, I have no ability whatsoever in the graphic arts, yet I did the following using MS Paint in about an hour:



All I did was to flip the image horizontally, remove some doors, windows, and other stuff, and then reverse the Z-order.Ã,  You can download a bitmap of the image if you like.

[dreammaster]

Radiant, thanks for the heads up. I was stuffing around in Manannan's house trying my damnedest to open the stuck drawer among other things on the basis the mirror would be hidden in here. Also, the flash of yellow I meant was around Manannan's shoulder-blades. I'm assuming a bit of yellow got into one of his animation frames. Very minor nitpick, but it really drew my attention after the whole "top of cupboard" flash.

Fluxmaster, whilst having different images for the telescope viewing would be good in theory, it would seem to be a great deal of work for very little reward. After all, I only realised that the camera angle was wrong when you explicitly pointed it out, and I don't think you spend enough time using the telescope to make it worthwhile.

A few more bugs to add to the list:

V3 room 53 [229,139]: Walk north, and you fall in front of the ground
V3 room 75 [202,101]: Clicking virtually any item on the water gives a message about "a cup not being suitable for holding water"
V3 room 75 [292,99]: You can walk right through the yellow fish

[dreammaster]

Hey there. I've got a mixed bag to report today.  8)

Warnings
------------
After one playthrough I noticed a warnings.txt file had been created with two copies of the following line:

(in room 75): Warning: ChangeCharacterView was used while the view was fixed - call ReleaseCharView first

Unfortunately, I can't say for sure what caused it, since it didn't generate an error whilst I was actually playing the game.

Bugs
------
* After stoning Medusa (again with pocket stuffing), I looked at the scene through the telescope. The first time, Medusa was fixed in place, but without the "stoned" picture (ie. she looked normal, but of course I didn't get stoned). When I left the scene and returned to it, she was gone.

Suggestions
-----------
* In the general store, clicking on the barrels it says you'd like to try the wine but don't want to carry a cask around with you. Therefore it would be sensible to have a custom response if the player tries to click the cup on the barrels.
* allow players to fill up the jar with normal water, and then allow them to later use it in the desert to refresh themselves
* Is the hideout rope ladder meant to keep retracting after you leave the screen? After all, I thought one bandit is sleeping and the other is putting down roots in the bar. Plus, using the hole a second time indicates that the rope ladder is stuck down; so I think it would make more sense to leave it hanging down once it's been discovered
* In the general store, the area rectangle for lard should be tweaked - it says it's lard at 170, 80, even though it's in the second of the blue rectangular spices
* If you've already got some lumber, it should stop you from taking some more off of the dead tree
* I'm currently trying to figure out where the salt is. I tried using the bottle of sea water on both the general store's stove and the 3 Bear's fire (to evaporate the water and leave the salt), but I get no response - one would be appropriate here

[Radiant]

Okay, update time!

In our fourth installment, it is finally possible to cast spells! Okay, you can't use the magical items you create yet, but at least you can make them. Plus, an old acquaintance drops by for a visit, and some of the Llewdorians are fleshed out. Finally, the cat and the innkeeper make their appearance.
You can reclaim your robbed goods, defeat Medusa legit, and play up to plot point seventeen, at which point you get to roam the country for free without Manny bothering you.
I've tried to make several events less strictly ordered. For instance entering the bears' house now involves a puzzle that you can do before or after a number of other things.
Enjoy!

If you're working on some puzzle (e.g. the cat, or the stuck drawer), I would appreciate hearing what you thought would work only it didn't, because I can add sensible responses there. The new version has a bunch of cat-related responses, for instance.

Fluxmaster -> while it would be fun to redraw all Llewdor screens from a different angle, I'm afraid it would be more effort than it's worth. Also I wouldn't be able to duplicate what you did since I'm a terrible artist. Thanks for the effort, though.
However, do you think you could help out with a bit of screen hacking? Because there's one screen that I'd love to use that doesn't exist in the original. I would like Gwydion to leave the pirate ship by rowboat, so if it would be possible to hack together a screen that shows the side of the ship at water height, with a small skiff and a rope (or ladder) leading up, that would be really great! All those elements do exist already, I can send you the relevant screenshots if you want.

Regarding your bandits problem,

Spoiler

It's ironic that in the same post you state you are unable to have Gwydion find the bandit lair, and then discuss the telescope at length...

[close]

* (in room 75): Warning: ChangeCharacterView was used while the view was fixed - call ReleaseCharView first
Should be fixed now; it's actually a bug in AGS but I'm evading it. If it ever occurs again let me know, the room number should suffice.

Regarding the salt puzzle,

Spoiler

Well found! Except that you should try it in the laboratory in this demo. I'll add possibilities in a number of other places as it only makes sense.

[close]

[fluxmaster]

Also I wouldn't be able to duplicate what you did since I'm a terrible artist.

Ha!Ã,  We could get into a bragging match over which one of us is the worse artist!

But, all right, if you want to send me the screenshots I'll hack up the screen that you want.Ã,  You may post them or email them to me at fluxmaster@replinemeadowsoftware.com.

As you've probably already figured out by now, back when Sierra had a 900 telephone number you could call to get hints where you paid by the minute, Sierra made a lot of money off me.

I have been deliberately avoiding reading other people's bug reports to avoid inadvertantly reading spoilers, but yesterday I went back and read all the others' bug reports, and it appears that every bug that I reported dreammaster reported first.Ã,  I will continue to report bugs, but I suspect that they will all be duplicates of those that dreammaster will have already reported.

[deltamatrix]

A suggestion!

Get rid of the 3 Bears House just like how AGDI got rid of the Little Red Riding Hood element.

[MoodyBlues]

I never got far in the original, so this is quite fun.

-----
Programming
-----
1.Ã,  The chamberpot bug is fixed.Ã,  Yay!
2.Ã,  After I was turned into a snail, I went back into the wizard's room.Ã,  For some reason, the mouse disappeared.Ã,  I did turn back to normal, though, and I was able to continue.
3.Ã,  I opened the trapdoor, and then entered the kitchen.Ã,  The wizard poofed in, did the whole "drink up" routine, and then made me work out.Ã,  This may have happened because I got in his way while trying to get the cup.
4.Ã,  In the same scene as above, Gwydion didn't walk over to the cup before picking it up.
5.Ã, 

Spoiler

I know I need to feed the wizard to fake the potion's effects, but how do I do that?Ã,  Placing the bread on the table or giving it to the wizard won't work.

[close]

6.Ã,  I can't use the hand icon on anything in my inventory window except for the potion.

-----
Visual
-----
1.Ã,  In one frame of Gwydion's side walking animation, the toe of his shoe is grey.
2.Ã,  The wizard uses a storm spell on me when he catches me in his laboratory, but I just get rained on.Ã,  Is Gwydion supposed to be struck by lightening?
3.Ã,  In the storm spell animation, the lower part of Gwydion's shirt turns blue for one frame.

-----
Other
-----
1.Ã,  Why does the wizard get mad when he sees that I have his scroll?Ã,  Doesn't he think Gwydion can't read anyway?

2.Ã, 

Spoiler

The player should be given some clue of the potion's effects without having to take it and "die."Ã,  This is just more realistic, since in real life you can't go back and fix mistakes after seeing the results.

[close]

3.Ã,  Consider not telling the audience or Gwydion what his real name is yet.Ã,  This may add to the mystery (although most people have already played this game and know the big twist )

Nicely done so far.Ã,  I like your new approach to this story.

[dreammaster]

Congratulations on yet again promptly releasing a new beta, and with new features, no less.

Moodyblue, you might want to check out the same thread in the Game Making Forum in www.agdiforums.com - that's been more or less been given over to giving hints and discussing miscellaneous things about the game. Also, the wizard gets mad at you for having the scroll for the same reason he gets mad at you for having ingredients for spells.. they show you've been disobeying him and doing things you shouldn't (at least, as far as he's concerned).

Lots of things to report about this new beta. But take heart, I certainly loved the new additions.Ã,  8)

Warnings
--------
(in room 24): Attempt to open file '-3N.1)I6:6' denied (not current directory)
This warning had been created during the initial day 1 work inside the house.

Bugs
----
* The log functionality doesn't seem to be working anymore
* Manannan still has a tendancy to appear and not disappear. Eg. on night 1 after cleaning his study, I go up to the second floor landing (room "po") and he appears, and then just stands there
* Minor graphics glitch - if you walk off the cliff at the back of the chicken pen at nighttime, the graphic for the chicken pen gate gets screwed up
* Something's wrong with the teleporter, the display of the current room number is screwed up.. it's displayed as two alphabetical characters rather than as digits
* I got fatal AGS error when I tried talking to the barmaid, or clicking any item on her:

---------------------------
Illegal exception
---------------------------
An exception 0xC0000005 occured in ACWIN.EXE at EIP = 0x00448966 ; program pointer is +6, ACI

version 2.61.747, gtags (17,10)

AGS cannot continue, this exception was fatal. Please note down the numbers above, remember what you

were doing at the time and notify CJ on the Tech forum.

(Global script line 3092)
---------------------------

* When I got turned into a snail I tried to go down the stairs; as soon as I entered the downstairs screen, I lost all control until I turned back to normal
* The little dot in the lab aquarium can go one pixel further to the right then the acquarium itself
* When I click use on the bandit in the treehouse, it says he awakes and starts chasing me. I then get a second dialog saying do you think you can hurt the bandits (but of course there is only one there). Then I get the chase music, but the bandit stays asleep.
* Talking to the sleeping bandit in the treehouse causes the same problem - it says he wakes up, but he stays asleep
* The treehouse room music sequence keeps playing for a while even after I leave the treehouse
* The single bandit in the bar still gets referred to as "The two scroungy thieves" and "The bandits" for the look and talk actions
* Leaving the bar gives a weird dialog with "4SJ TK YMJ XZWQ^ ..etc"
* If you try clicking any item on the locked door of your bedroom on night 3 it says "you have nothing with which to pick a lock". This doesn't really make sense, particularly if, for example, you're trying the gold key on the off-chance that it might work.
* The day 4 opening, which I understand is only currently for testing, opens with the night scene still in the bedroom window
* On night 3, you can walk through the door of your bedroom even though it's meant to be closed and locked. BTW: Without spoilers, is it possible to get the bedroom door key during day 3 legitimately?
* For tea on day 3, I gave Manannan and Mordack the meat. Returning to the dining room on night 3, the meat is still on the table. Clicking on it gives a dialog "You retrieve your bowl". My bowl?
* Unlocking the safe on night 3 (having done it previously on night 2), I get an extra blank dialog at the start (before the "you open the safe" dialog appears).
* Miscasting the invisibility spell, my corpse jumped from being by the table to being by the top cupboard

Suggestions
-----------
* The night time dining room window doesn't have any look/use description
* There's no look/use descriptions for the barmaid
* The earlier beta had a series of spell entries harkening to KQ6 and KQ2+, which I notice aren't in this beta. I loved seeing them.. couldn't they can added back in?
* Clever puzzle with the fisherman. It might be better if you gave an encouragement response if the player types in certain wrong guesses. For example, I was guessing "eel" for a while, since it has a head and the rest of it is tail. "snake" is another one, since there's a snake in the game, and it has a head and all tail
* I think the bandit chasing you puzzle could be slowed down a bit (ie. give you a bit more of a lead). Even after I figured out how to solve this puzzle, doing it again repeatedly was problematic because the bandit is after you so quickly, unless you hog room boundaries
* You're probably already aware of this, but the conversation between Manannan and Mordack is currently just a single dialog saying "conversation".
* You probably intend something further anyway, but it's currently weird that Mordack just stands like a statue in the dining room on night 3

[lightman]

1. When I get an object, I can click it on this and an empty box pops up, but I guess you know about that?

2. When re-starting, I start at the top of the staircase and can't do anything at all with the GUI - the mouse interface becomes useless.

3. There is no message for 'touch orb'.

4. I went through the trap door in Manannan's study. I tried to use the orb on the mouse which gave this error:

---------------------------
Illegal exception
---------------------------
An exception 0xC0000005 occured in ACWIN.EXE at EIP = 0x00448966 ; program pointer is +6, ACI version 2.61.747, gtags (11,10)

AGS cannot continue, this exception was fatal. Please note down the numbers above, remember what you were doing at the time and notify CJ on the Tech forum.

(Global script line 3092)

---------------------------
OKÃ,  Ã, 
---------------------------

[dreammaster]

Hey, I managed to squeeze in some more bug testing for the day, and got a few more bugs to report:

Bugs
----
* Looking at the Principala Matamatica note when you're in the inventory screen whilst performing a spell will cause it appear, but then there will be no way to get rid of it
* The spell failure ending for the teleportation spell has the same "loss of mouse" problem that several of the other endings had. Also, it says that "that stone has a flaw". But at this stage, I don't even have a stone
* When you try, for example, heating the sea water on the lab brazier it says that it's out of charcoal. Yet if you look at it, it says that the charcoal is cold
* Trying to talk to any of the bears when they're are having a picnic gives the error: Global script line 3106; Error: Null string supplied to CheckForTranslations
* Returning to the bandit's treehouse later, after having dealt with the first bandit and having returned to collect your missing items from the box, the second bandit is there. But he doesn't actually move, although the chase music plays, and if you leave the room, he will appear and push you off the tree. It also refers to the box as being closed, even though it's visually open
* Also about the second bandit, trying to use him, it refers to the "two bandits" again, where it should only be one
* It seems that you can't legitimately stone Medusa in this beta.. clicking the mirror on her gives the same fatal AGS error as in my previous post, at global script line 3092


Suggestions
-----------
* Trying to use the twigs, knife, or spoon on the vial in the tree should give a message like "You try to stretch out using a twig/the knife/the spoon to prod the vial loose, but it doesn't reach far enough"

[fluxmaster]

First, let me take back what I said about the game's being too easy.  It does have some good puzzles in it.  The fisherman's puzzle was not too difficult--I solved it in a few minutes, actually--but it was a nice puzzle.

I had a list of bugs to report, but then I looked over the other bug reports, and all of them have been reported already.

I have still been unable successfully to run away from the bandit in the treehouse.  I tried slowing the game down to the slowest speed, and I think that I've managed to make it five screens away, but he always catches me.  I tried some other stuff besides running, but that doesn't work.  If running is all that I have to do, I think that this puzzle should be made easier, so that it is not too much of an arcade puzzle.  Or, if you want to make it an arcade puzzle, let the player choose the difficulty level.

[JBiker51]

You wouldn't be, by any chance, trying to beat AGD Interactive to the release, would you?

[Blackthorne]

You wouldn't be, by any chance, trying to beat AGD Interactive to the release, would you?

They're not making one.

Bt

[dreammaster]

A few more bugs to report, but nothing major. I'm eagerly awaiting the next beta release *wink* *wink*

Bugs
----
* Spelling error - papa bear tells you to stay away from their "picknick" - should be "picnic"
* I get a Fatal AGS Error clicking any item on the dog in the general store.. same details as in previous postings
* I just noticed that the coordinate display for the Ctrl-C toggle is screwed up like the room number in the teleport cheat is
* Clipping error. If you walk left off the path in room 53 from position ont,onw (sorry, but as I said, the coordinate display is screwed), you fall partially in front of the foreground
* There's no use action for the skull in the stream outlet screen, and it's says there's no action for "touch lizard".. that must have been one hell of a big lizard
* You can walk behind the gangplank on day 4
* Walking into the bar on day 4 crashes the game wth the error: Room 48 script line 467; Error: MoveObject: invalid object number
* The description of the lab mortar is currently split into two dialogs mid-sentence

Suggestions
-----------
* A reply for if you click wood on the stove in the general store would be appropriate, such as "the shopkeeper is quite capable of keeping the stove fueled"
* The dialog when you return to room 53 on day 3 without having completed the day's requirements -Ã,  it says "you'd think this would be a great oppurtunity to look ardound Llewdor a bit more". It would be better grammatically to say "you think"

Finally, does beta 4 legitimately allow you to get some charcoal? I've tried burning the twigs in the available fires, tried getting some from the various burned out stumps, and searched the house and the general store. I even teleported into the 3 bears house to check there (I haven't figured out how to get the key yet - I figure I need the invisibility potion). I'm darned if I can find any.

[Radiant]

Moodyblues -> you say that 'you know you need to feed the wizard to duplicate the potion effects'. I'm wondering how you think you know that, as it's 1.counterintuitive, and 2.wrong.
I'm not entirely sure if the wiz should zap you for the scroll, but then if he sees you walking around with his scrap paper he may just realize that you can read after all. Also in the original, he zaps you for most anything you carry anyway.
I should think it's pretty obvious that you don't want to drink the potion. You aren't told what it does but it is hinted at that it'd be bad for you "I don't like the sound of this at all".
Finally, I will actually expand the intro to show Alexander's kidnapping. Did you know that the original KQ3 was ill-received at first because people didn't get the link to the other KQ games?

Dreammaster -> Yes, you can get the bedroom key legit. You cannot actually get charcoal yet (you were supposed to, but a bug prevents it). And you can't use any spell-created item yet, but you can get the bears' key.

Fluxmaster -> The bandit chasing you is not an arcade, it's an actual puzzle. Well, okay it does involve arcade, but you can't just run anywhere like in QfG and expect him to give up.

JBiker -> They're doing QfG2, surely you're aware of that?

Deltamatrix -> Interesting idea, but it's kind of difficult to change the faerie tale involved without actually removing the bear (because the cottage will have to be there, and I'd hate to drop the bear gfx). If you have suggestions I'd be happy to hear them.

[dreammaster]

Thanks for the nudge Radiant. I've now been able to get the key and cast some spells legitimately. As far as I can see, barring the charcoal and anything desert related which can't be got in this beta, all I have left now is to find a few of the remaining ingredients.

Note to anyone reading: this bug report contains an explicit puzzle spoiler. For some of the previous bug reports, I've tried to remain vague, but I can't in this case.

Bugs
------
* When I pick up a chicken on day 3, a second one is immediately spawned. Once it even appeared outside the pen
* At one point on night 3, I somehow managed to get on the "outside" of the staircase. One example point would be at position oqn, vu. Not major, since I was able to walk up the outside of the staircase to the second floor and everything was all right again
* I think finding the door key to your bedroom is an unfair puzzle. None of the descriptions indicate that the key has been left in your door. I spent a lot of time looking around the house on day 3 trying to find where Manannan might have an extra key. It was only because I tried using the pin to lockpick the door that I found out the key was actually in the door. Then at least it was a simple matter to work out how to get it
* When I unlock the door to my bedroom with the key, it explicitly only says that you "unlock" the door. So when I try to open the door, it says that it's already open. The dialogs should be tweaked so that it says you unlock and open the door
* About the door, using it, it says "in order to allay the wizard's suspicions, you leave it open". Umm.. the wizard did lock you in your bedroom, so wouldn't it make him suspicious if you leave the door *open* rather than closed?
* The filename on the file delete confirmation dialog is all scrambled

[Darfeng]

Hi Radiant,Ã,  :)Ã,  I'm trying your Kings Quest 3 remake, ITS GREAT, its the first sierra game I ever played.Ã,  The new add ons make itÃ,  a new experience.Ã,  One quest I must ask is ( when you change the speed of the game, does the time also speed up?, I noticed the wizard fellow pops in a lot more and keeps making me drink this potion of his.Ã,  Did i just make a bad move?, or is this a glitch?

[MoodyBlues]

Moodyblues -> you say that 'you know you need to feed the wizard to duplicate the potion effects'. I'm wondering how you think you know that, as it's 1.counterintuitive, and 2.wrong.
I'm not entirely sure if the wiz should zap you for the scroll, but then if he sees you walking around with his scrap paper he may just realize that you can read after all. Also in the original, he zaps you for most anything you carry anyway.
I should think it's pretty obvious that you don't want to drink the potion. You aren't told what it does but it is hinted at that it'd be bad for you "I don't like the sound of this at all".
Finally, I will actually expand the intro to show Alexander's kidnapping. Did you know that the original KQ3 was ill-received at first because people didn't get the link to the other KQ games?

1.  You're right   I thought at first that the potion would make me obedient as well as content, and feeding the wizard was a sign of obedience.

2.  Hmmm... you're right; the scroll thing makes sense after all.

3.  Yeah, I heard about that.   But the shock of finding out his real identity may have made for it.

[Radiant]

Dreammaster -> you can legitimally get the snakeskin, eagle feather and fly wings. Fyi.
You are correct about the unfairness of a certain puzzle, I'll add hints to it. And bugs noted, thanks.

Darfenq -> time is actually determined by your actions, not by how many seconds you've been playing. There are some timing-related things, such as the fact that when Manannan 'ports in, he will 'port out after five seconds - and yes, these are affected by the speed setting. But nothing important will change, and regardless of speed he WILL eventually do some nasty things to you. Figurit!

[dreammaster]

Thanks for the FYI Radiant, but I've already figured out how to get all three; the snakeskin I can't get in beta 4 because of the Medusa crashing bug, but the newly introduced descriptions in beta 4 gave me the answer to go back to beta 3 to get it. The ingredients I'm still missing are: the nightshade juice, cat hair, mandrake, pouch, thimble, and amber stone (although that's presumably in the spider cave). If any of them can't be gotten in Beta 4, I'd appreciate knowing.

A few more things to report:

Bugs
------
* When you place the item on in it's correct position to catch the fly, it isn't removed from your inventory. It should be, since it needs to be removed afterwards

Suggestions
----------------
*Ã,  I'm currently trying to figure out how to get the cat hair since, unlike in the original, it simply scratches you if you try to pick it up. I think the milk has something to with it (I haven't found any other use for it), but clicking it on the cat doesn't do anything (it could use a response). Neither does the gutted fish (also could use a response). I also tried using the milk on the bowl, figuring an indirect solution (could use a response).

[iron_man]

Radiant, check your email.
The 'package' is ready 
I am sending it to you now.

[NightQuest]

hey dood this look Awsome cant wait to play it (im not gonna beta, ruins it)

[Athirwen]

I love the original King's Quest series, I still play them now and again. Must say I'm looking forward to playing this one, keep up the good work it'll be really worth it when you finish it. Good luck!

[Radiant]

Hi there,

Dreammaster -> the pouch is very easy to get, I'm surprised you don't have it yet. The other ingredients you mention aren't actually available yet. The answer to the cat would indeed be the milk or the fish, except that I haven't coded that yet. I must say you're very good at puzzling these out.

ironman -> Done, and thanks.

Thanks for the support folks!

[MrColossal]

Finally, I will actually expand the intro to show Alexander's kidnapping. Did you know that the original KQ3 was ill-received at first because people didn't get the link to the other KQ games?

May I ask why?

Isn't a part of the game learning who Gwydion is? Not knowing who you are or why you're the slave of a wizard?

[edmundito]

I think it's really cool that you if you're playing the game and all of the sudden you understand who you are and realize that it was connected to the King's Quest story... instead of knowing who you are at first and then finding out who you are, again? (Ironically, the game I'm working on you know about the player before the player knows about who he really is. Maybe I should change it. Hmm.... but the important part in my game is that the story told is not quite right, and you eventually find out that he... Oh, I said too much. )

I haven't played KQIII and now I'm spoiled. Thanks a lot, MrColasshole.

Also, Greedo Han Solo shoots first! (Edit: Damn you, George. You made me say the wrong thing!!!  )

[iron_man]

But now this does not matter. There are no surprises.
Even my grandma knows who the gwydion is 

[lightman]

[Edit, clip]

Netmonkey: Yes, George Lucas is full of filthy, Sith mind tricks. Only releasing the "special" editions on DVD is kind of asking people to bootleg.

[deltamatrix]

If I can find a way to eliminate the 3 bears, I'll let you know. Thing is, it doesn't have to be poisoned porridge. Killing Manannan can be done in an entirely different way.

The trouble with this game is that its confusing for people like me who have played the original. I assume that the puzzles are kinda the same even though they ain't.

It took me ages to figure out how to avoid drinking the poison drink. If you haven't done so already, you should extend the time before you get zapped in that scene.

The game should probably be more different. You have added to the original but don't seem to have CHANGED original stuff dramaticly.
I think its the graphics. They are the same layout which mixed up this game with the old one 4 me and the fact that all the puzzles aren't possible to solve yet merely adds to my confusio ergo I think you should have programmed ALL puzzles in llewedor first before you released public betas.

[Blackthorne]

Finally, I will actually expand the intro to show Alexander's kidnapping. Did you know that the original KQ3 was ill-received at first because people didn't get the link to the other KQ games?

May I ask why?

Isn't a part of the game learning who Gwydion is? Not knowing who you are or why you're the slave of a wizard?

Agreed.  Not knowing your Graham's son is important to the story.

I know most that will play this ALREADY know, but I'm sure there will be plenty of newcomers playing it for the first time.

Bt

[iron_man]

Perhaps Radiant you should provide a working walkthrough of the beta to the testers to help them accelerate the testing process.

[dreammaster]

Blackthorne519, remember that as it stands, there is already a sequence near the start of the game with the mirror that explicitly spells out who you are anyway. An introduction that spells it out won't therefore make much difference. Personally, I'm in favour of it - it would help differentiate the remake from the original.

iron_man, part of the fun of beta testing is trying out any old thing to try and figure out what works and what doesn't. Having a complete walkthrough might allow some bugs to slip through because you might not try some combinations you would have otherwise. If you have real problems solving a puzzle, you can always ask for a hint on the AGDI thread.

[iron_man]

agree. The only difference is that with the walkthrough you know how far you can go in the game. So you do not spend time trying to continue in the game while the real logic has not been implemented by the programmer.

[fluxmaster]

This post may contain spoilers, but since it appears that everyone else is further along in the game than I am, I don't think that anyone will much care.

I have made it past the bandits, but I'm not sure that I did so legitimately.  No matter how much I ran I could not outrun the bandit after a few screens, so I tried teleporting to the top of the mountain.  Surely enough, the bandit would follow me to the top of the mountain.  But if I teleported to the top of the mountain and immediately went to the wizard's study, the wizard would repremand me for not bringing firewood.  The theme music for running from the bandit kept playing, so I figured I wasn't out of the woods yet.  I teleported back down the mountain and walked around from screen to screen.  The theme music kept playing, but after several screens it stopped playing, so I guess that I had shaken off the bandit at that point.  I don't know whether that was the correct solution or not.

After the wizard locked me in the bedroom I went to sleep, and after I woke up the door appeared to be unlocked.  This seemed strange; I'm not sure whether that was intended or not.

I went to the wizards bedroom to fetch the key from the top of the closet.  Every time the floor would creak I clicked on the system button, then clicked on play.  That got me past the creaky floor boards.  Apparently clicking on system then on play caused the game to overlook the creaking event.  I doubt that that was the correct solution, but it worked.  Then I teleported to get out of the wizard's bedroom.  Again, probably not the correct solution, but it worked.

I then retrieved all the stuff from under my bed, fetched the magic wand, and returned to the basement, where I am now.  At this point I don't appear to have sufficient ingreedients to do any of the spells.  I assume that I am supposed to be making spells at this point, but it is not possible to descend the mountain at night to fetch more ingredients, and the game is not supposed to have any dead ends, so I'm at a loss as to what to do at this point.

[Radiant]

MrColossal -> probably, but I kind of assumed that by now, every knew already (lots of people have played another KQ game, and most of them include the story in the readme - even KQ2v does). Also I feel there should be a reason why Gwydion chooses that particular time to defeat Manannan and make a break for Daventry. In the original you don't even have to visit the oracle.
It's a good point though, I'll think of a way around it.

Deltamatrix -> you are right. The problem, however, is that my graphics skills are non-existent. If I had access to a couple of good room/animation artists, I would be able to modify the room structure to a bigger extent (note that I'm already doing some additions, particularly in Daventry).

IronMan -> Nope, won't do that. However feel free to ask hints. It is very important to me to find out if the puzzles are fair, and what people would try to get past them. I agree with Dreamm here. I've tried to make clear in all demos how far you could go (the current beta plainly states it when you get there)

Fluxmaster -> teleporting is not the way to beat the bandits. Because of the way AGS implements following, they will also follow you through a teleport.
Interesting point with the floorboard problem.

Spoiler

Note that the trick there is simply waiting between creaks, so that may be exactly what you did

[close]

What you mention is not a dead end. I figure that at a certain point, the game will just have to loop a certain number of event until Gwydion has enough ingredients. So you should go to sleep and get more stuff on the next day (note that this doesn't work in the current demo, but that's the idea). You could have gotten the ingredients earlier though.

[fluxmaster]

Okay, so the following is a bug:  (I didn't specify coordinates, but I suppose I could provide them if you need them.)

If you run enough screens from the bandit, you will shake him eventually.  However, I did this using teleporting, so I don't know whether it will work without teleporting.

Regarding the solution you sent me in a PM, I actually tried that a couple of times, but it didn't work.  That's why I don't like the idea of a puzzle within an arcade sequence (unless the player is permitted to set the difficulty level to "easy"), because it's possible to guess the correct solution to the puzzle but still fail because the arcade sequence itself is difficult.

[dreammaster]

And may I add, if you can at least make the transform into cat spell and get rid of Manannan, then you can search the countryside at your leasure for the rest of the ingredients.

PS: I've got a pretty good idea what the private package was (AGDI forum), so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the next beta. 8)

[iron_man]

PS: I've got a pretty good idea what the private package was (AGDI forum), so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the next beta. 8)

I visited AGDI and i just figured out what you meant dreammaster

I am afraid that it is not what you have in mind :(Ã,  Besides, the poll results were so depressing, that the idea was abandoned!

The package was a code component written in C.Radiant asked me if i still have it. He wanted it and i sent it to him.

[fluxmaster]

I think I've discovered a new bug, since I don't think anyone else has reported it yet:

While in the laboratory trying to make the "Brew up a Storm" spell, I click on inventory to read the Principia Mathematica.Ã,  In some cases, the game will not let me exit inventory at this point, and it doesn't let me log the error.Ã,  It doesn't always happen, and I don't remember exactly what I did to make it happen, but I think that I may have clicked the eye on some of the symbols on the page.

While making the "Storm" spell, if I put the dried mud into the mixing bowl with no water, the message still says that it dissolves in the water.

If I try to put in a spoonful of mud, it says that I don't have a spoon, even though the mud is held in a spoon.

I have the three ingreedients that I need for that spell.Ã,  It appears that the three ingreedients must be added in the order indicated, but regardless of what amounts I use, it doesn't accept the mud.Ã,  Do I need to understand the mathematical symbols to get past this point in the game?

[dreammaster]

Damn, and I had such high hopes. On a side note, I agree with Fluxmaster that there seems to be something wrong with the Brewing a Storm spell. According to the symbols of the spell, after heating the mixture you're meant to put in a pinch of mud. But doing so causes the spell to fail.

[fluxmaster]

According to the symbols of the spell, after heating the mixture . . .

Oh, so the symbols tell you to heat the mixture?Ã,  Well, I hadn't figured out that part yet, nor do I have any charcoal to heat the mixture, so I'll have to look further to find those things.

I hope that in àŸ5 the Save Game feature will be fixed so that the last saved game doesn't keep getting deleted without notification.Ã,  I'm a Scrooge when it comes to saved games, gut I can't go back to the point I want to because the saved games keep getting deleted.

[dreammaster]

Fluxmaster, Just remember that Radiant previously stated that although charcoal should be obtainable in Beta 4, it can't due to a bug preventing you. So unless you stuff your pockets, don't expect to get it. See my previous posting for all the other ingredients that can't be gotten in beta 4.

Hey Radiant, not to put any pressure on you, but how's beta 5 coming along?Ã, 

[Edwin Xie]

What game is this? A story game or just free roaming?

[fluxmaster]

It's a real game.  You can download the beta from a link on the first post of the first page of this thread.

[dreammaster]

Better to download the latest beta at http://www.liacs.nl/~psimoons/kq3b4.zip rather than the original beta.

[fluxmaster]

Using "stuff pockets" to get the cookbook, I'm starting to figure out the meaning of the symbols.  There don't appear to be enough pages in the cookbook to decipher all the symbols, so I assume that the spells puzzles are not soluble as of yet.  Decoding the symbols is an interesting puzzle, though, and not too difficult.

BTW, Radiant updates the link to the beta download on the first page of this thread to point to the latest beta.  I think that it's easier to direct someone to the beginning of the thread to get to the download link, since it's always in the same place.

[Edwin Xie]

Hmm, why does the wizard zap you?

[dreammaster]

Edwinxie, the wizard will mostly zap you for having on your person any item which he considers to be dangerous to him, or that shows you've been disobeying him. This means pretty much anything expect the basic tools you find in the kitchen. One of the game's first puzzles, therefore, is to find a place to hide your contraband where the wizard won't find them.

Fluxmaster, the cookbook and the Principala Mathamatica give you all the information you need to be able to cast the spells. I didn't notice any extra symbols in the spellbook that weren't in the two of them.

[Edwin Xie]

The only things I have before I got zapped were anything I could grab in the kitchen and a scroll in the wastebasket of his private study.

[Edwin Xie]

Error when talking to chickens.

[dreammaster]

The message from the bin is a contraband. It contains a key to casting magic, so naturally Manannan gets angry at you if he finds it on you.

[Radiant]

Fluxmaster -> is that the savegame deletion bug you mentioned earlier? Because I think I've got that fixed (in B5 that is).

Dreammaster -> there is actually one symbol in the spellbook [the last one] that isn't found anywhere else, but that shuold be easy to figure out   Oh and yes, the easter egg spells from other games will be back, only I figured there were too many of them and it confused players.

Currently moving to a new apartment, after that I'll have a beta-5 of sorts.

[fluxmaster]

Yes, the saved game deletion bug is the same one that I mentioned earlier; I simply repeated it because it is becoming more and more annoying.

Looking at the Principia Mathematica, if I make the assumption that the symbols there represent the first five natural numbers, then the equations are soluble, and all the symbols have been decoded.Ã,  But it still doesn't make complete sense because, looking at the "Brew a Mighty Storm" spell, I would have to heat the ocean water twice, then add five spoonfuls of mud.Ã,  I don't know what it would mean to heat something twice (is that like making refried beans?), and I only have one spoonful of mud to add.Ã,  Besides, even if I had five spoonfuls of mud, after I add the first spoonful the music stops, and the game tells me that something is wrong.

[dreammaster]

fluxmaster, about the spells..

Spoiler

you're misinterpreting the signs. First of all, you're right in that the Principla Mathamatica can be solved using the first five natural numbers 1..5. However, when in a spell, they specify a particular ingredient number rather than the number of times to do something, and are used in conjunction with the standard symbols as specified in the cookbook.

So, for example, the Brewing a Storm spell reads:
Using Ingredient 3, add a pinch, add another pinch, using ingredient 1, add it all, heat, using ingredient 2, add a pinch, blow on it, stir it, stir it again, wave the wand.

Of course, as I said earlier, the spell fails when you try to add the mud, but this is how the spell reads visually, at least. I'm not sure where you got 5 from in your message; you may have mis-solved the Mathamatica document. It's fairly easy to solve once if you start off with the basis that all the values must be between 1 to 5.. the second equation x/y=y, or x=2y, only works with whole numbers when x=4 and y=2. Then it's easy to work out the other values.

[close]

[fovmester]

you can still hide text simply by writing [hide) bla bla [/hide). But exchange the ) for an ]. Like this:

Spoiler

bla bla

[close]

[dreammaster]

Fovmester, thanks for the heads up. I've gone back and updated my previous reply

[fluxmaster]

Of course, you're right; there's no 5 in that spell.  I was just in a hurry when I typed the message.  But I did misinterpret the symbols as you've said.

[Edwin Xie]

how do you do the debugging features?

[dreammaster]

If you read the dialogs that appear when you start the game, you'll see a list of Ctrl combinations you can use for debugging.

[the_dude]

 

Where'd you get the sprites? I was interested in using them for a game.

[Moox]

You draw sprites...

[dreammaster]

I think he means what utility did Radiant use to extract the graphics from the original KQ3 game

[Edwin Xie]

If you read the dialogs that appear when you start the game, you'll see a list of Ctrl combinations you can use for debugging.

I had trouble typing the debugging features because I did not know what the "^" meant.


And uh, is there a walkthrough for this game (what I really meant was like do you finish this game of is it just a just a game like Runescape or MU?)

[dreammaster]

Edwinxie, the game is still a beta, and not completed yet. If you're familiar with the original Sierra game, you can get almost as far as dealing with Manannan. That is, you can get to a stage of being able to gather *most* of the spell ingredients and casting some of the spells, although you can't use the results yet.

We discussed earlier whether a walkthrough should be made available. Whilst I don't want to put words into Radiant's mouth, the current betas are really aimed at getting people to experiment with what's been done so far and evaluate whether the puzzles are fair or not. Having a walkthrough would effectively destroy that.

If you really get stuck on anything, post a hint request to the AGDI forums http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/ and either myself or one of the others can help you out

[Edwin Xie]

I haven't played the Original Sierra Game cause it is too big to download. How do you drop items? I don't mean all items but just like one single item.

[dreammaster]

Too big? The original game was only about 2Mb. In any case, piracy is strongly discouraged, so if you haven't played the original, I'd recommend looking for a copy of the KQ collection on EBay.

Since you're unfamiliar with the game, I'll just state that in this remake (which changes many of the puzzles anyway), you can get through the first four days of gameplay. This is most of the storyline that occurs as you prepare to escape the grasp of your evil master, the wizard Manannan. The rest of the game, finding a way home and dealing with the problems therein, hasn't been scripted by Radiant yet.

[Edwin Xie]

Oh, wait the one I mentioned was the remake.

[fluxmaster]

To drop an item

Spoiler

click on the floor under your bed.Ã,  You can only drop items in your bedroom, and you can pick them up later.

[close]

[Edwin Xie]

Where do you download the Original Sierra Game? Also, what do you do with the orb? And why does the game end after you drink the test potion? After I pass out the game seems to restart then he gets called to polish his telescope.

[dreammaster]

There's nothing you can do with the orb yet. As for the potion, it's a nasty potion to ensure your permanent obedience. Obviously, this is bad, particularly as you want to escape. So you'll need to figure out a way to avoid drinking the potion without Manannan catching on.

[Radiant]

Auhsor -> No they don't, that is absolutely illegal, and if I were a moderator here I would have censored your post. (Sierra is still selling their old games and has serious issues against abandonware)

Edwinxie -> Dreammaster is absolutely correct. Oh, and ^ means control, that abbrev is even used in MS Word I believe.

[Edwin Xie]

I believe that www.abandonia.com got permission to host the games.

[Edwin Xie]

There's nothing you can do with the orb yet. As for the potion, it's a nasty potion to ensure your permanent obedience. Obviously, this is bad, particularly as you want to escape. So you'll need to figure out a way to avoid drinking the potion without Manannan catching on.

How do I avoid drinking it? Going into the Kitchen?

[dreammaster]

Check out the AGDI thread at http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8520. You'll find the answer there.

[Edwin Xie]

I'm afraid, I didn't find the answer there.

[dreammaster]

On page 2, the "To get past the potion you must.." bit.

Spoiler

First click the potion on the ground near you. This will make you pour it on your clothes and the ground whilst pretending to drink it. You must then click the use hand on yourself to pretend to do the spinning and collapsing that would happen if you really had drunk the potion.

[close]

[Edwin Xie]

I was too late to use hand icon on me.

[auhsor]

Dr. Tom wrote:
None of them are.


Let me say it once more. We got permission to place the KQ games that are on the site. We were not allowed to place KQ7.

Straight from the abandonia.com forums

Yeah I couldn't believe it, but I go on their forums a bit and yeah, It seems that they do have permission... But getting back on topic...

[Edwin Xie]

Where cna I find the fish oil?

[fluxmaster]

Here's a very slight hint:

Spoiler

You don't really find the fish oil

[close]

[Edwin Xie]

What do I do, smash a fish? And then use lard on it?

[fluxmaster]

Hint #1:Ã,  Forget about the game.Ã,  Suppose, in your actual life, you wanted to get some fish oil.Ã,  Where would you get it?

Hint #2:Ã,  EDIT: The link that I posted doesn't work, so just go by Hint #1.

[Edwin Xie]

If I wanted fish oil I would buy it.

[fluxmaster]

Well . . .

[Edwin Xie]

 

[dreammaster]

Now you go, and do the same.

I know that's a quote, but can't remember from where.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Kay, so I haven't read the full thread, so if someone already brought this up let me know (but break it gently!) -

Wasn't some other guy doing an enhanced version of KQ3, this one with original plot and VGA graphics and point and click? I think his name had "Hawk" in it...

[deltamatrix]

Mhawk it is.

He quit ages ago and his project wasn't lookin good anyways.

Forget that one ever existed.

[Edwin Xie]

Manny's brother is still there after I slept! And his food is still is on the table!

[fluxmaster]

Yes, I thought that was rather strange, myself.  He just sits there in a daze, and if you try to talk to him, he ignores you.  I suppose he should be sleeping in the guest bedroom, but then Radiant would have to add a guest bedroom to the house, and that would be extra work.  I think that it would be better just to have him disappear at nighttime, or put a convertible sofa in the living room and show him sleeping there.

[dreammaster]

It will be interesting to see how Radiant handles his reaction when Manannan is turned into a cat. Maybe he'll simply disappear. It'd be fun to watch him storming through the house yelling for Manannan. Maybe with another minor puzzle to get him to leave (rather than killing you just for the fun of it).Ã,  8)

[Edwin Xie]

Also, what is strange is when mannanans brother got his own food...then I go to bed and it shows them having a conversation his brother's food is gone.

[capdepenis]

What's the answer to the fisherman's riddle?

[Edwin Xie]

And one time when I loaded the game there was a happy birthday song! Maybe I should try out the game instead of asking here for questions................

Oh yeah, an error when trying to enter the tavern ---------------------------
Adventure Game Studio
---------------------------
An error has occured. Please contact the game author for support, as this
is likely to be a scripting error and not a bug in AGS.
(ACI version 2.61.747)

(Room 48 script line 467)
Error: MoveObject: invalid object number

---------------------------
OK   
---------------------------

[fluxmaster]

What's the answer to the fisherman's riddle?

This was actually the easiest puzzle for me to solve; it only took me a couple of minutes to think it over.

Hint number 1:

Spoiler

Note that the riddle doesn't say that the answer is a fish.

[close]

Hint number 2:

Spoiler

The riddle said that it was a "catch."

[close]

Hint number 3:

Spoiler

What might you find while walking along the beach?

[close]

[Radiant]

That's what the save function is for. However, the time limit will be increased in the future.

[Edwin Xie]

What about the error???

[dreammaster]

Obviously, we'll have to wait for beta 5 for it to be fixed. 

[Edwin Xie]

sigh

[Radiant]

Yea, sorry to keep you all waiting here, it took some time moving all my stuff into my new apartment (which is thrice as big as the old student's room I was in) and unpacking and sorting and throwing stuff away. I've done plenty of bugfixing since the last beta (thanks to the bugfinders, you know who you are) but I wanted a couple more features before calling it a new beta.

[Edwin Xie]

Features......Can't really think of them, the game is great the way it is.

[dreammaster]

He probably meant that he wants to program in some more of the remaining storyline, as well as making the spell results usable.

[Edwin Xie]

Oh! In that case, when you (or manannan) do magic make the attacks look better, like those makes you better understand the attacks such as, giving the impression that electricity is flowing out of your hands when Mananan is zapping you. And the "brew a storm" spell, maybe it could form in front of the person casting the spell, then moving towards the person being attacked very quickly rather than just making it form over your head.

[Radiant]

Edwinxie -> Those are good ideas. Can I hire you as a sprite artist?

Dreammaster -> yes, exactly.

[Edwin Xie]

Hmm...I'll try...

[Cpt_Jigglypuff]

Uhm Just a question, but wasn't his name spelled "Gwidion"? Or am I confused?  maybe I got a bugged copy?  I actually bought it in the KQ collection....hrm....

*scratches head*

[Athirwen]

Uhm Just a question, but wasn't his name spelled "Gwidion"? Or am I confused?Ã,  maybe I got a bugged copy?Ã,  I actually bought it in the KQ collection....hrm....

*scratches head*

No, it was spelt "Gwydion", honestly, it was.

[Radiant]

It seriously is Gwydion. However, an interesting (and very stupid) point is that Manannan's name is constantly misspelled as Mannanan in KQV.
(both names are from Celtic mythology, by the way)

[Robby]

How do you get the three bears key.

[dreammaster]

How do you get the three bears key.

Hint:

Spoiler

Use something that's long and sticky to get a good grip on it

[close]

Spoiler:

Spoiler

A little bit of spider web will do the trick

[close]

[Robby]

Which puzzles are solvable in this beta.

[dreammaster]

It's a bit hard to be exact but, the storyline should be completable up to day 4 (when the ship arrives), except for:
* Using the results of any spell casting
* Getting coal for the brazier in the lab
* Dealing with Medusa (you could in the previous beta, but the most recent one introduced a crashing bug).
* A few of the ingredients (such as Mandrake root and Nightshade juice from memory)

That's as much as I can remember off the top of my head.

[Aldrius]

I have an annoying, and likely over-asked question.

When you've finished everything, and released it, will you still be adding more to the storyline, and such. I mean, the original finished off manannan fairly early. Will it be extended this time, so that perhaps you can't kill him until after you've gotten the dragon even, perhaps get the last ingredient or something for the cat potion until AFTER you kill the dragon.

Or even better, perhaps only be able to give it to him when the dragon has been defeated. (I mean make it so Alex flees while Mana is away, and then when he catches up with him *With orders from The Father to terminate both of the children* Alex gives him the potion to him that he stole from him earler. *Perhaps something to give him immense power* and instead it turns him into a cat.) I just think the final climatic battle should be with Mana, and not the dragon.

Er, but my overasked question is, will you re-texture it and add voices after completion? Just curious... as aren't the voices of Mordack and Graham actually in KQ2VGA? or was it just "Sound-alikes"?

[Aldrius]

Er, seeing I have yet to register, I'll have to post again without editing. Sorry about the father refrence. This is a different continuity isn' it?

[Radiant]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I must say that it would only confuse the plot if you had to travel back to Llewdor after defeating the dragon. I think rescuing your sister makes for a nice climax and ending. Besides, if Manannan would want to kill Alex, he'd just 'port in and zap.

Voice acting is something I will consider when the project is nearly complete, but not until then.

[Aldrius]

I meant Mana would follow him to Daventry. Sorry for the confusion. And be all "Thought you could get away didn't you? Well I have a special surprise for those who defy me!" and then Alex surprises him with a bit of Soup or something to make up for it. Mana laughs and says he'll eat it then, as he is rather hungry without his servant preparing his meals. And then he turns into a Cat or whatever.

I really enjoy it though, as is. Mana just always felt like an added-on villain.

And you missed my question about the re-texturing?

Oh, and could it be a little less difficult to die. I mean if Alex is caught with a Toadstool or Fly Wings, how could he know those have magical properties. I mean I know Mana's mean, but I don't think he's THAT wicked.

Not to sound like a know-it-all.

[iron_man]

I meant Mana would follow him to Daventry. Sorry for the confusion. And be all "Thought you could get away didn't you? Well I have a special surprise for those who defy me!" and then Alex surprises him with a bit of Soup or something to make up for it. Mana laughs and says he'll eat it then, as he is rather hungry without his servant preparing his meals. And then he turns into a Cat or whatever.

I really enjoy it though, as is. Mana just always felt like an added-on villain.

And you missed my question about the re-texturing?

Oh, and could it be a little less difficult to die. I mean if Alex is caught with a Toadstool or Fly Wings, how could he know those have magical properties. I mean I know Mana's mean, but I don't think he's THAT wicked.

Not to sound like a know-it-all.

ok let's see the situation again :
Mannanan is embarassed by a young slave and defeated in the first part of llewdor. He promises revenge, and full of wrath, after breaking Alex's spell with difficulty finds the latter in daventry.
And before casts the death spell on Alex,
Alex interrupts him and offers him a soup
!!! Mannanan then forgets his wrath and decides to eat food from the hands of his worst enemy! The enemy that made him a cat some days ago!!!

Excuse me, but this plot makes mannanan seem so stupid and ingenuous. Not to mention how greedy-guts he is, postponing a revenge in order to eat food. Food from enemy no less!

[Aldrius]

Er, you changed my plot around... I never said he changed him into a cat before that.

I meant!

-Mana goes on trip.
-Alex escapes.
-Mana returns to find Alex gone.
-Mana tracks him down to Daventry.
-Alex apologises and gives Mana the potion he stole from him.
-In a cruel twist of Irony, Mana decides to destroy Alex with the potion he stole from him.
-Drinking it down, he finds himself as a cat.