Star Wars Movies

Started by Matchew, Tue 22/02/2005 15:03:06

Previous topic - Next topic

Matchew

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that the new Star Wars movies are not of the same quality as the originals. Both in SFX and storylines. The value of the visuals is close to nil as the costumes and carachters are decidedly poor and rendered in CGI
they may be the best available visual effects available, but it's still obvious, to prove my point, consider this, in the Return of the Jedi the scene where the emperor lands on the death star II is filled with costumed extras in Imperial uniforms, and although it is true that they are plastic and decidedly basic, they are ten times more realistic and cooler than the scene in Ep II where all the CGI clones (no pun intended) march.
I believe that physical sets and mass produced costumes are more pleasing to the eye that CGI will ever be.
And the lack of consistency sickens me, I mean, wouldn't c-3po actually recognise Darth Vader as his master?, Why is Anakin so young when ep 1 is set fifty years before ep 4 and ep 3 is set 18 years before ep 4?
And a long time before ep 1 happened, there was a mandalorian war, which turned most jedi to the dark side. A jedi civil-war followed where most jedi were wiped out. even the jedi council on Coruscant was wiped out long before the films. so how exactly does Lucas expect to explain all this???
I think we'd be better off without prequels and maybe it would be better if Lucas didn't direct the new ones, I mean the Empire Strikes back was the best star wars film ever made, and Irvin Kerschner directed it.

In short, the new Star Wars saga (which funnily enough is an old one) is a complete mess.
matchew has spoken.............. well sort of

McMurphy

Exactly, and i noticed that Qui-Gon is never mentioned in ep's 4-6, even when Ben is talking about when he trained anakin of his own free will, which he didnt. Qui-gon bet him with a jack danials bottle until he accepted! but realistically, theres such a lack of consistency that it makes me sick too  :'(

Matchew

I think we all know it was a half-drunken can of Dutch Gold, but seriously.
matchew has spoken.............. well sort of

Radiant

I'm not sure where the Mandalorian war happens, but it probably isn't canon. Even if it was written by Timothy Zahn, his canonness can be trumped by George Lucas.

That said, I agree that a lot of plot things are tacked on. And while the films do have their decidedly cool scenes (e.g. Boba Fett vs Obi-Wan), they lack the atmosphere of the originals. It's just too over the top (film I: huge leviathan monster eaten by an even bigger one; jar jar really must die; tying anakin with C3PO is forced; using midoclhirans or whatever to explain mysticism bugs me; maul is nowhere near as cool as vader, and having a painted skin don't help; having anakin take down a star destroyer age 10 is deus ex machina) (film 2: the entire romance scene is ridicululously overdone; the Anakin/Obiwan conflict feels forced; Boba Fett's baby clone doesn't make much sense character-wise, they could easily have made him a non-human that lives longer; the factory scene was overdone as well; and Joda should have been able to beat that evil guy, simply by force-moving his friends rather than the heavy pillar).

Still, the plot for III looks promising. And hey, how many hollywood films actually end in disaster?

Matchew

I beg to differ about Maul, it's not that he ain't cool, he just didn't have any signifigance to the plot, why kill him off in the first film, I mean, Deus ex machina or what (even more obvious than your Anakin example) It was also agreed when Lucas lisenced out the rights for authors to write books he accepted all answers to tie in to the Star Wars universe, and as such he agreed on all decisions made by the authors. In other words, the books are as relevant as the first three films (the old/new ones)
The same thing was done with the matrix and it's sadly shite game, where you have to play the game to understand where the third film starts.
matchew has spoken.............. well sort of

Babar

Canon?????? What, Star Wars is already formed a religion? The far seeing Farlander predicted this, but I never thought I would live to see it!
:P

Seriously (if it is possible to be serious about Star Wars), I never got why QuiGon didn't "disappear" like all the other Jedi. In my Star Wars fanatic day I even asked them once, but their answer was something along the lines of "It'll all be explained in the next movie".
I stopped taking Star Wars seriously after Episode 1. I was able to enjoy 2 much better than. Stuff like the Queen's "Leather mating suit" made me laugh out loud.
The ultimate Professional Amateur

Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

Darth Mandarb

I'm confused how people can say there are plot inconsistencies before Episode III has been released?

I agree that there are some things about the prequels that bother me.  But saying that there are inconsistencies between the prequels and the OT is rather silly.  George Lucas is (to me) one of the greatest story tellers of all time.  I'm pretty sure these 'loose-ends' will be tied up in ep3.  At least I hope so.

The one 'plot' consistency that I feel must be addressed are the midicholrians.  Midichlorians MUST be explained away/about in Ep. III.  This is the the one main thing that irks me terribly.  If they are so pivotal to force potential, why doesn't Ben tell Luke about them in the OT?  I have a few theories, but I'm not going to go into them now.

I think the updated visuals actually works to the favor of the prequels.  The time-frame of the prequels is supposed to be a 'more civilized' time.  The galaxy was in good shape with high technology.  Years of war and imperial oppression cause the dingy run-down look of the OT.  Again, just my opinion.

As for Darth Maul's significance?  The prequels already mirror the OT so much, I think it was a great idea to introduce an 'all powerful sith' who gets whacked in half in the first film.  Think about it:

Young boy taken off Tatooine by an older Jedi gets caught up in a galactic conflict and blows up a large space craft in the end after his master is killed by a dark lord of the sith.

That description works for both A New Hope and Phantom Menace ... so killing Maul differentiated the two, but still leaves the connection.  To me, that's great story telling.

Episode I actually takes place 32 years before A New Hope.  View the Star Wars Timeline to see what I mean.  (Although it includes many non-canon stuff, the movies are listed properly.)

My one major gripe about the prequels is the dialogue.  For some reason it just doesn't feel as good as the dialogue from the originals.  But I think this is Lucas' directing, rather than poor dialogue.  I think the man is an incredible story teller, but his directing leaves something to be desired.

I do enjoy a good Star Wars discussion ... however, I think the bashing about 'plot holes' and 'inconsistancies' should really be held in reserve until after we've all seen Episode III.

Blackthorne

See, I don't buy into the canon of the EU at all, so none of that matters to me.

I've been entertained by Episodes I & II.  I still love the OT better, but I've been entertained.  That's all that matters.

What doesn't "entertain" me is
a) I can't get the original release OT on DVD
b) Fan-Boys who love to proclaim the Prequel Trilogy "Teh Suck"

Bt
-----------------------------------
"Enjoy Every Sandwich" - Warren Zevon

http://www.infamous-quests.com

MrColossal

Good news for me then! I'm not a fan boy and I think the new movies suck!

Rock on with me!

What I miss from the first movies to these new ones is whenever a big door would open up all the actors would stand still and they'd speed up the film cause the door was too heavy for Jimmy the Door Wrangler to lift by himself... Ah low-tech
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

PaulSC

Ah, yet another of the most over-discussed subjects on the internet, along with George Bush and "Reasons why the Simpsons isn't good anymore".

I'll chip in anyway. The ludicrous amount of hate piled on the Star Wars prequels on the internet only makes me want to like them. And I do! Within reason anyway.

The characters, acting and dialogue are weaker on the whole, and they lack charm, but if you can look past that and drop any convoluted ideas about what you'd rather they were, I find there's actually a lot to enjoy in them. CGI or not, the films often look lovely, they have some great action sequences and the way the story is contructed so as to have the key plotline of the emperor's rise to power occuring almost entirely in the background is quite cleverly done. I certainly rank them far above most of the summer blockbusters of recent years.

It's kind of interesting that I only started appreciating the prequels after i'd pretty much lost interest in Star Wars, though (interesting to me, anyway). I don't really feel that strongly about any of them, these days, but I'm looking forward to the next one.

Darth Mandarb

Quote from: Blackthorne on Tue 22/02/2005 17:32:55a) I can't get the original release OT on DVD
You can't?  ;)

TheYak

I've got to agree with most of the shortcomings listed.  For my part, I mainly feel let down by the prequels because they haven't got any charaters I've got the slightest interest in.  This should change a bit in Episode 3, perhaps making it all worthwhile. 

Taken on their own, they're not bad films, but I'll take the Solo, Chewie, Lando trio over the Queen, Jar-jar, Obi-Wan (MacGregor-style) any day.  I've never been a huge fan but was interested when I first heard about the sequels.   I was let down, but only when comparing the soul of the first 3 to the sterility of the prequels.  There comes a point where you've just gotta shrug your shoulders and relegate yourself to the fact that it's George's invention and his property so he'll do what he likes with 'em.   

As for getting the original trilogy, I could care less about seeing the original versions - except for those damned CGI insertions that stick out like a sore thumb.  Being very into graphics (3d and otherwise) I don't generally deplore their usage but it looks like crap inserted into the hardware vs. software effects world of IV-VI. 

Most of what I've heard about the upcoming Ep. 3 sounds good.  I've seen the first 5 minutes (with some placeholder renderings) and it seemed a good intro (if a bit busy)

Spoiler
space dogfight with Anakin & Obi vs. a crapload of ships and drones, a little weak since you know the two main characters aren't in any danger but cool nonetheless
[close]
But then again, George has said there's going to be a lot more action in this one with major events and fights happening throughout the entire movie  - necessarily to fill in all gaps between II and IV but here's hoping it's not catering too much to the low-attention-span generation.

Matchew

I think we should clear up this fact first, CGI is not at the stage where it is indistinguishable, If anybody read the latest copy of Empire Magazine, they would have seen the picture of yoda sitting with Obi-wan and mace windu in one of the drop ships, now, I ask you (those who have seen the pic that is) does the picture seem real to you, (Besides the actors of course), do the two clones seem real?, does Yoda? I speak for everybody when I say no.

As regards the maul debate, Darth Maul is a fuckin deadly dark jedi, he killed a jedi master fer cryin out loud, do you think it's possible that an apprentice could defeat him? (consider Luke VS Vader in ep 5) I think it would have been a better climax if Obi wan fell and we would not know his fate until later in the film (like the Lord of the Rings). Maul would have kicked ass in ep ii if he survived, I think that Lucas created the character too hastily without considering future events, and late in the writing of the story, he just killed him off.

To address the year difference between the first film and the fourth, It was announced at the completion of the first that it was set fifty years before (or thereabouts) the fourth, and was later changed.

The clones are the worst thing about ep ii, even if they were all Jango's clones, that doesn't explain their Aussie accents, it's not like things like aussie twangs are hereditary.

And last but not least, the whole boba fett storyline is completely poor and rushed, why couldn't he be the son of Zam wessel (or whatever the shape-shiftin cow wuz called), it would add complexity, and would explain away his differences with his father.

matchew has spoken.............. well sort of

Darth Mandarb

Quote from: Matchew on Tue 22/02/2005 21:55:28I think we should clear up this fact first, CGI is not at the stage where it is indistinguishable, If anybody read the latest copy of Empire Magazine, they would have seen the picture of yoda sitting with Obi-wan and mace windu in one of the drop ships, now, I ask you (those who have seen the pic that is) does the picture seem real to you, (Besides the actors of course), do the two clones seem real?, does Yoda? I speak for everybody when I say no.
You don't speak for me :)  I haven't seen the picture, but I've seen PLENTY of CGI that blends perfectly with live action.  (Gollum in Lord of the Rings) and I've seen completely CG movies (Polar Express) that had so much realism you could almost not tell.  There is (some) CGI in the matrix movies that seemlessly blends.  To me at least.  Some of the best (invisible) CGI work I've ever seen was in "The Last Samurai".  Don't know what CGI I'm talking about?  That's my point :)

Quote from: Matchew on Tue 22/02/2005 21:55:28As regards the maul debate, Darth Maul is a fuckin deadly dark jedi, he killed a jedi master fer cryin out loud, do you think it's possible that an apprentice could defeat him? (consider Luke VS Vader in ep 5) I think it would have been a better climax if Obi wan fell and we would not know his fate until later in the film (like the Lord of the Rings). Maul would have kicked ass in ep ii if he survived, I think that Lucas created the character too hastily without considering future events, and late in the writing of the story, he just killed him off.
Darth Maul was Darth Sidious' apprentice ... just as Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's.  So, while Maul was able to kill Qui-Gon, that doesn't mean Obi-Wan wouldn't be able to kill Maul.  They were both apprentices. Edit - not to mention I think Qui-Gon let Maul kill him ... just a theory of mine.

Quote from: Matchew on Tue 22/02/2005 21:55:28To address the year difference between the first film and the fourth, It was announced at the completion of the first that it was set fifty years before (or thereabouts) the fourth, and was later changed.
I'm not sure where you got that information?  Can you provide a link?  I remember hearing (long before Ep I came out) that it was set approximately 30 years before Ep. IV.  As in the link I provided in my last post.

Blackthorne

Quote from: MrColossal on Tue 22/02/2005 18:27:20
Good news for me then! I'm not a fan boy and I think the new movies suck!

Oh, that's okay.  I'm just talkin' about the assholes who have SEEN the prequels about 100 times a piece, and still complain about them while they fondle their Puzz-3D bust of Jar-Jar binks.  It's okay to loathe the films; It just reminds me of the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons...... "Worst movie ever.... I'll only see it 32 more times......"

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 22/02/2005 19:54:12
Quote from: Blackthorne on Tue 22/02/2005 17:32:55a) I can't get the original release OT on DVD
You can't? ;)
Well.... not in the stores, perhaps.   ;D
Thank god for techno-savvy friends.


I always saw EP I as set 32 years before EP IV - Vader is maybe 40-42 when A New Hope Begins.

Bt

-----------------------------------
"Enjoy Every Sandwich" - Warren Zevon

http://www.infamous-quests.com

Las Naranjas

The original films profited from the fact that at that point they knew they were post modern referential material rather than being uber creative new world stuff, and that Lucas didn't have as great creative control.

Unfortunately, now he seems to believe what the fan biys have said about him.
"I'm a moron" - LGM
http://sylpher.com/novomestro
Your resident Novocastrian.

Matchew

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 22/02/2005 22:55:27
You don't speak for me :)Ã,  I haven't seen the picture, but I've seen PLENTY of CGI that blends perfectly with live action.Ã,  (Gollum in Lord of the Rings) and I've seen completely CG movies (Polar Express) that had so much realism you could almost not tell.Ã,  There is (some) CGI in the matrix movies that seemlessly blends.Ã,  To me at least.Ã,  Some of the best (invisible) CGI work I've ever seen was in "The Last Samurai".Ã,  Don't know what CGI I'm talking about?Ã,  That's my point :)

i was refferring to star wars, u should cough up the â,¬5 to buy the Issue of Empire if you wish to challenge my opinion.

P.S. I don't have any links to help you, I read it with an old friend in a copy of Star Wars magazine about seven or eight years ago.

P.P.S. Consider the fact that qui gon found it difficult to fight maul, now consider obi wan's skills at that time, it all adds up when you think about it.

P.P.P.S. you seem to like S.W. v much, did u read any books?
matchew has spoken.............. well sort of

DCillusion

Why aren't more people complaining about the dialogue?  I think that's the WORST part of the Episode 1 & 2, (& probably 3). 

Nobody ever seems to get MAD, or happy, or annoyed.  Maul growls, Qui-Gon's always calm, Anakin mopes, even Tyrannus seems oddly calm when his plan goes to shit.  People ramble on emotionless about EVERYTHING!? I don't think anyone's lines in 4,5, or 6 went longer than 8 lines without stopping, & that was the Emperor's monologue!!

I know the new stuff's about jedi's, but why do they all have to be calm.  I thought controlling your emotions was a "master" kind've thing.  Luke's a knight in 6 & he's joking & yelling with the best of them.

I really miss "zippy" lines like when the Falcon won't start in Empire-(Leia asks, "Would it help if I got out & pushed?"  and Han says, "It might").  "Pushing" is such a car phrase, but it sucked me into the story.

P.S. I'm confused about EP: 1-3 being more civilized.  This isn't a flame to the post, but I thought the reason they used "knobs & switches" instead of "holographics & touch-sensors" was because the LAST place you wanted your crap to break down was in space.  The empire hadn't lost any tech......why didn't they have that stuff?

Darth Mandarb

Quote from: Matchew on Wed 23/02/2005 19:15:08i was refferring to star wars, you should cough up the â,¬5 to buy the Issue of Empire if you wish to challenge my opinion.
Can you (or anybody) provide a scan and/or link to the image?  I'd really like to see it.  A lot of times the pictures given to magazines and website (pre-release) aren't polished shots and aren't how they'll look in the film.  So I don't deny it's possible the image may look bad/questionable.

Quote from: Matchew on Wed 23/02/2005 19:15:08P.S. I don't have any links to help you, I read it with an old friend in a copy of Star Wars magazine about seven or eight years ago.
Hmmm ... I read EVERYthing I could get my hands on back then.  I really don't recall it ever mentioning 50 years.  Well, moot point I guess.

Quote from: Matchew on Wed 23/02/2005 19:15:08P.P.S. Consider the fact that qui gon found it difficult to fight maul, now consider obi wan's skills at that time, it all adds up when you think about it.
Gonna have to disagree here.  Obi-Wan was, in The Phantom Menace, older than Anakin is in Clones.  Anakin in clones far surpasses Obi-Wan's skills, he just lacks experience and is a little more hot-headed than Obi-Wan is/was in Phantom.  It's not iconcievable that Obi-Wan could have the lightsabre skills to defeat Maul when Qui-Gon couldn't.  Especially considering that Qui-Gon might have been working towards a greater goal ... I still think he LET Maul kill him.

Quote from: Matchew on Wed 23/02/2005 19:15:08P.P.P.S. you seem to like S.W. v much, did you read any books?
I read almost all of the EU right up until they killed Chewbacca ... I haven't read any of it since then.

Quote from: DCillusion on Wed 23/02/2005 21:19:14Why aren't more people complaining about the dialogue? I think that's the WORST part of the Episode 1 & 2, (& probably 3).

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 22/02/2005 16:23:59My one major gripe about the prequels is the dialogue. For some reason it just doesn't feel as good as the dialogue from the originals.
I'm with you on that one!

Quote from: DCillusion on Wed 23/02/2005 21:19:14I really miss "zippy" lines like when the Falcon won't start in Empire-(Leia asks, "Would it help if I got out & pushed?" and Han says, "It might"). "Pushing" is such a car phrase, but it sucked me into the story.
I'm with you on that one too!

Quote from: DCillusion on Wed 23/02/2005 21:19:14P.S. I'm confused about EP: 1-3 being more civilized. This isn't a flame to the post, but I thought the reason they used "knobs & switches" instead of "holographics & touch-sensors" was because the LAST place you wanted your crap to break down was in space. The empire hadn't lost any tech......why didn't they have that stuff?
That's how Obi-Wan describes it to Luke in A New Hope ... "Before the dark times ...".  I just always assumed that a civilization of peace (like the universe before the rise of the empire) would have tended towards artistic stuff (think the Naboo cruisers) where a society flogged with 20 years of war and strife would tend towards craft/technology which is designed to be functional and not worry about how aesthetically pleasing it is :)

DCillusion

QuoteThat's how Obi-Wan describes it to Luke in A New Hope ... "Before the dark times ...".  I just always assumed that a civilization of peace (like the universe before the rise of the empire) would have tended towards artistic stuff (think the Naboo cruisers) where a society flogged with 20 years of war and strife would tend towards craft/technology which is designed to be functional and not worry about how aesthetically pleasing it is

I'm not entirely convinced, but that makes sense....more artistic.  It's one of those things where I can't tell if Lucas planned it that way, or he completely dropped the ball, being influenced by "NewTech" & the fans picked up the slack.

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk