Puzzle designs and implementations

[Slasher]

Hi

I would like to open a discussion on puzzle designs and implementations.

1: Whilst some folk are very cryptic and are prepared to spend many hours trying to solve a scenario there must be many others where if they can't solve it within say 15 minutes quit the game and maybe try later, maybe not.

2: Hints and Walkthroughs: Are these an indication that the puzzle solution is not obvious or is not logical or the puzzle is not clearly defined to be able to solve it and progress thereby people having to ask for help?

This is an endless list...

What do you people think about puzzles, implementations, Hints and Walkthroughs?

cheers

[Mandle]

Foreshadowing the puzzle solution earlier on seems to be the best method without getting all invasive...

For example:

The puzzle in DOTT where you have to make it rain by washing the old wagon was already mentioned by Bernard when he looks at the "WASH ME" on the car: "Some people think that washing one's vehicle will make it rain." or somesuch...

So yeah: foreshadowing puzzle solutions way in advance is probably the best method in my opinion but it takes a lot of planning to get it just right...

Another more recent example would be Ponch's game: 2034 AC II

Where:

SPOILERS:

Spoiler

They train you up for the mechanics of the driving sequences early on and then there is the joke about never doing a longer sequence (pixel-wise) so it puts you off guard for later on when you have to drive FOREVER!!!

[close]

So: set the hints up early on so that they get into the player's mindset of how to play the game, but so subtle that they don't realize they are getting trained for something that they need to know how to do later...

Foreshadowing...

[MyEakinBack]

I guess I am still living in the golden age of adventure games when the puzzles were hard. You didn't used to be given a lot of hints. You had to spend a lot of time figuring the puzzles out. You had to close the game and come back. These puzzles nagged at you, got on your nerve, yet you had to go back as much as you hated it. You didn't expect to finish the game in 15 minutes.

The puzzle that always sticks in my mind is the MI2 monkey wrench puzzle. You were supposed to know that a fire hydrant on a natural island would turn off a waterfall? You were then supposed to know that a monkey wrench, something known only in the US, was supposed to work on such a large and tight nut, when special tools are normally used on a hydrant? You then make the connection to a monkey, figure out you have to hypnotize him (with a very obscure method of a banana and a metronome - what is that?), and know you he'll stay as a wrench as you tuck him away in your coat. Really?!?

But it stuck with me to this day! It was ridiculous and hilarious. And I still can't get it out my head.

I read notes from new people coming to the site and they talk about these good old days and how it kept them adventure gaming all these years. Face it, you all like hard puzzles even though you also hate them. So why not throw in a hard one now and then? And don't give them the answer in the game, nor too many clues. Leave those in the hints/walkthru.

A very hard balance I'm trying to figure out myself, so great idea for a thread!

[MiteWiseacreLives!]

My theory is: Just make it make sense!
The last thing you want is the player to be screaming at the monitor, "How was I suppose to know that!". Even if it's hard and takes a while to piece together, the player will usually feel good when they figure it out, if there is some logic behind the solution.

[haroldw]

Slasher - I think your question is really at the core of what an adventure game is.  The folks who are cryptic - are so far and few between, it's not enough to
          sustain a project.
Mandle         - Your concepts are spot-on.  Foreshadowing.
MyEakinBack - We are in the same boat.  I think the human capacity to remember things is on the decline.    Also the word patience comes to mind.
MiteWiseacreLives! - I totally agree.  I'm still deciding on the approach I will use. Seems like Foreshadowing will work UNLESS, they cannot roam back to
                     that area - then the - just make it make sense, approach will resolve any frustration over the puzzle.

You all have very impressive lists of games you've created. Lastly, I was very surprised at the popularity numbers (Interactive Fiction vs Adventure Games).
Everyone is not exactly wild about puzzles (although I am).

[ManicMatt]

I find if I get stuck on a puzzle and look up the solution and scream "I SEE!! I WAS SUPPOSED TO READ THE PROGRAMMER'S MINDS TO SOLVE THIS PUZZLE!! HOW STUPID OF ME!" Then each time I am stuck afterwards in that game, I will quickly look for a solution rather than persist. The same has happened where I've encountered a bug and then everytime I am stuck I'm thinking "Am I stuck because I haven't solved it, or because there's another bug stopping me?"

I do wonder if my Limbo game was too easy. My previous game Secrets had a few people stumped, and someone even made a walkthrough for it. Limbo, almost everyone sails through it, but at least they (presumably) enjoyed it and saw the whole game.

[Mandle]

I do wonder if my Limbo game was too easy. My previous game Secrets had a few people stumped, and someone even made a walkthrough for it. Limbo, almost everyone sails through it, but at least they (presumably) enjoyed it and saw the whole game.

I did get briefly stumped a couple of times in Limbo, but soon found the solution and I think this is pretty much the difficulty level players want to see in a game that has such a great story and humour as Limbo. The player wants to feel clever by connecting the dots but the humour will suffer if slowed down by the dots being too far apart.

I feel you hit pretty much the perfect balance in that game.

So yeah...I feel that the difficulty of the puzzles should reflect the tone of the game: Comedy games need a faster pace as the same joke which is hilarious when you are making steady progress quickly gets annoying while you are stumped...

A more serious-themed game like, let's say: finding an ancient cure to save a loved-one dying from a disease...Well then I would expect the puzzles to be quite difficult to add to the tension of the plot in that maybe I'm not going to get the cure in time to save them. I'd want a difficult chemistry puzzle combining the ingredients for example so I really feel like I worked hard to save their life just in time, instead of just a simple recipe that anyone can follow in a few seconds with no problems.

Just my two-bits but:

Comedy game: speed up the pace
Serious game: slow it down a little

[ManicMatt]

Thanks! That's gotta be the highest praise I've had for my game! I don't really hear all that much feedback about it.

[Mandle]

Thanks! That's gotta be the highest praise I've had for my game! I don't really hear all that much feedback about it.

I know right?!

You spend all those years raising them...caring for them...and then they go off out into the big wide world...and you hardly ever hear from them again...

Would it kill them just to write or pick up a phone every now and then?

[ManicMatt]

Haha!