Author Topic: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination  (Read 22905 times)

Matti

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #420 on: 20 Feb 2021, 11:53 »
Well, I recently had an argument with someone who generally referred to women as "girls". He probably wouldn't call elderly women girls, but other than that it was just an expression of his misogyny.

I'm so sick of people saying "It's just fiction, not the real world" as if that fiction doesn't derive from the thoughts of a living person from the real world. As if the fiction exists in some other universe and doesn't affect people living here and now. As if men objectify women in games, but not in real life.

"This whole discussion is about how entertainment affects our views on human rights, criminal justice and politics" (Blondbraid). I would like to add that views on human rights, criminal justice and politics affects the entertainment. Also, sexism affects entertainment, massively. And, Kyriakos, it's not "bad writing" that reproduces sexist tropes, it's a sexist worldview that reproduces sexist tropes. I recently played The inner world and it's a mind-boggling example of sexist representation of female characters in videogames. The few female characters are either a mother, a love-interest or a slut, and the only time two of them are in the same scene, they start a cat fight  :-X >:( This game is an extreme example, but that bullshit derives from the developers view on women! And it's symptomatic that almost none of the reviewers complained about that.

I also tried to play Guard Duty but stopped after a few minutes. Judging from the trailer and screenshots I was already anticipating a game where the only female characters are a damsel in distress and a sexy woman in a bar. But when the main character (a pathetic topless dude) remembered his last night making out with an "ugly" woman I quit. That was enough.
« Last Edit: 20 Feb 2021, 13:03 by Matti »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #421 on: 20 Feb 2021, 16:22 »
Well spoken!
I think everyone ought to see this discussion video on Red Dawn, and the fact that entertainment will reflect the creator's politics, but at 9:15 in the video, the narrator also
discusses how fiction isn't real, and exactly because it isn't real, but a creation of the author, we ought to look critically on why they are telling a story in this way.


As for The inner world and Guard Duty, I only saw the screenshots and thought they looked nice but never got around to playing the games because there have been so many other games I'd rather play, but this sounds disappointing yet not surprising,
and it's better still than the atrocious open-world game trope where you have a mission set in a brothel and are encouraged to ogle (or sometimes even buy) the women there, or the countless games where the only female character is kidnapped/killed
for the male hero to avenge her, and I doubt this would be such prevalent tropes if it weren't for the fact that so many sexist men still see women as objects, in many cases you could literally replace the girl with a fancy sports car or other valuable possession
and nothing would change in the story, just look at how in the first John Wick movie, instead of the baddies killing his girlfriend, they kill his beagle, but otherwise the story basically plays out exactly as a ton of other stories of a man avenging his dead girlfriend.

I suppose I could link to the Sexy lamp test.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #422 on: 20 Feb 2021, 17:22 »

As I said before, I think that the first game that could pass the test is Maniac Mansion.



_

Matti

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #423 on: 20 Feb 2021, 18:41 »
I think everyone ought to see this discussion video on Red Dawn, and the fact that entertainment will reflect the creator's politics, but at 9:15 in the video, the narrator also
discusses how fiction isn't real, and exactly because it isn't real, but a creation of the author, we ought to look critically on why they are telling a story in this way.

Thanks for the clip, it makes some good points.

As for The inner world and Guard Duty, I only saw the screenshots and thought they looked nice but never got around to playing the games because there have been so many other games I'd rather play, but this sounds disappointing yet not surprising

As for the Inner World, it really is a pity. Despite the sexism the game is rather charming, but that alone stopped me from even trying out the second part. Here's a bad review that illustrates the portrayal of women in the game:

Spoiler: ShowHide
"However, I cannot overcome the subconscious issues with this game: [spoilery]
- The main character Robert falls in love with the first woman he ever sees, of course, right at first sight.

- The main character Robert comments on a picture of the barmaid when she was young with: "What time does to women". The old barmaid has sagging breasts (there is no comment about the old men). Hello misogyny...

- The only time, two female characters (love interest Laura and toad) are on the screen at the same time, a "catfight" is created. Of course, two female characters cannot interact without hating each other [sarcasm].

- Only flirting with the toad leads to success, there is no other way. The flirting intensifies the catfight between Laura and toad because the toad "steals" the main character from Laura. What the ♥♥♥♥.

- The main character Robert does not manage one physical task. Self-talk of Robert: "Laura (Love interest) will laugh at me because I ask her for help". Laura then actually says: "Sure, we just don't talk about it". The toad then says "Well, I like it when men show weakness". Which does this say of the image of men in this universe?

- When the father of the Laura (love interest) is rescued and sees his daughter Laura with the main character Robert, the father becomes directly defensive and hostile: he has "always been afraid" that his daughter will meet a boy. Even though there isn't any declaration of love from Laura (Love interst) to the main character Robert so far. Robert could also be a stalker, but the father of course only recognizes one possible lover.

- In a flashback: an applicant only talks to king, even though the queen is sitting right next to the king. The queen only talks in private to the king. Which power does the queen have?

- In general, positions of power are only occupied by men. Main character, the villain, guards, king, mechanics, scientists, wind monks, black market sellers are all men. Women appear only as love interest, barmaid (also love interest), mother, wife (queen) or "nasty b**ch" (toad). All female characters are equipped with so-called feminising gender signifiers (lipstick, eyelashes). Otherwise, they have no other personality markers in their appearance, no characterising thing. Just lipstick and lashed. Wow.

- When Laura (Love interest) is petrified, main character Robert kisses her (no consent whatsoever). After she is saved, she first thanks Robert for the rescue, apologizes for always "teasing" him because she really likes him (That's not how this works what the ♥♥♥♥). She kisses him. Then finally she slaps him in the face "and that was for the kiss earlier, you didn't think I'd notice". Main char Robert lies on the floor, looks very happy and says "it was absolutely worth it". Yikes."
« Last Edit: 20 Feb 2021, 18:45 by Matti »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #424 on: 20 Feb 2021, 21:51 »
As for The inner world and Guard Duty, I only saw the screenshots and thought they looked nice but never got around to playing the games because there have been so many other games I'd rather play, but this sounds disappointing yet not surprising

As for the Inner World, it really is a pity. Despite the sexism the game is rather charming, but that alone stopped me from even trying out the second part. Here's a bad review that illustrates the portrayal of women in the game:

Spoiler: ShowHide
"However, I cannot overcome the subconscious issues with this game: [spoilery]
- The main character Robert falls in love with the first woman he ever sees, of course, right at first sight.

- The main character Robert comments on a picture of the barmaid when she was young with: "What time does to women". The old barmaid has sagging breasts (there is no comment about the old men). Hello misogyny...

- The only time, two female characters (love interest Laura and toad) are on the screen at the same time, a "catfight" is created. Of course, two female characters cannot interact without hating each other [sarcasm].

- Only flirting with the toad leads to success, there is no other way. The flirting intensifies the catfight between Laura and toad because the toad "steals" the main character from Laura. What the ♥♥♥♥.

- The main character Robert does not manage one physical task. Self-talk of Robert: "Laura (Love interest) will laugh at me because I ask her for help". Laura then actually says: "Sure, we just don't talk about it". The toad then says "Well, I like it when men show weakness". Which does this say of the image of men in this universe?

- When the father of the Laura (love interest) is rescued and sees his daughter Laura with the main character Robert, the father becomes directly defensive and hostile: he has "always been afraid" that his daughter will meet a boy. Even though there isn't any declaration of love from Laura (Love interst) to the main character Robert so far. Robert could also be a stalker, but the father of course only recognizes one possible lover.

- In a flashback: an applicant only talks to king, even though the queen is sitting right next to the king. The queen only talks in private to the king. Which power does the queen have?

- In general, positions of power are only occupied by men. Main character, the villain, guards, king, mechanics, scientists, wind monks, black market sellers are all men. Women appear only as love interest, barmaid (also love interest), mother, wife (queen) or "nasty b**ch" (toad). All female characters are equipped with so-called feminising gender signifiers (lipstick, eyelashes). Otherwise, they have no other personality markers in their appearance, no characterising thing. Just lipstick and lashed. Wow.

- When Laura (Love interest) is petrified, main character Robert kisses her (no consent whatsoever). After she is saved, she first thanks Robert for the rescue, apologizes for always "teasing" him because she really likes him (That's not how this works what the ♥♥♥♥). She kisses him. Then finally she slaps him in the face "and that was for the kiss earlier, you didn't think I'd notice". Main char Robert lies on the floor, looks very happy and says "it was absolutely worth it". Yikes."

Wow, most of it just sounds like your bad garden variety of bad sitcom stereotypes paired with bad romantic comedy stereotypes, but the fourth and the last points on the list really jumped out at me with how crude they were in their sexism.

I guess this is what happens when you don't have any women test-read your script before releasing it.
I think this paragraph should be required reading for every man trying to write a female love interest, this sentence in particular;

You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them.


Danvzare

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #425 on: 26 Feb 2021, 13:19 »
I think this paragraph should be required reading for every man trying to write a female love interest, this sentence in particular;
Having read that paragraph, all I can say is that no guy wants a girl like that. Except those jocks who you always see playing the bully in 80s movies.  (laugh)
You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them.
With a quote like that, I thought it was going to be about anime girls (I've heard similar things being said in lots of reviews for bad anime). Instead it's about "Cool Girls".  :-X
Which are obviously girls that only exist in the mind of a teenage frat boy. You know, the kind of guy everybody (and I do mean everybody) hates.  (roll)


As I said before, I think that the first game that could pass the test is Maniac Mansion.
I've thought about that since you said it the first time, and I honestly can't think of a moment in the game where two female characters speak to each other about something other than a man in Maniac Mansion.
There are four female characters in Maniac Mansion. Wendy, Razor, Edna, and Sandy.
There's no talk function, so Wendy and Razor can never talk to each other. (So that doesn't pass it.)
Edna will only talk to you when she captures you, where she then mentions that it's a good thing you're not a boy. (So that doesn't pass it either.)
And Razor will only talk to someone other than Dave, after you complete the game with Dave dead, where obviously she talks about dave. (So even that doesn't pass it.)
So seriously, where does Maniac Mansion pass the Bechdel test? Because I can't figure it out.  :-\

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #426 on: 26 Feb 2021, 17:49 »

As I said before, I think that the first game that could pass the test is Maniac Mansion.
I've thought about that since you said it the first time, and I honestly can't think of a moment in the game where two female characters speak to each other about something other than a man in Maniac Mansion.
There are four female characters in Maniac Mansion. Wendy, Razor, Edna, and Sandy.
There's no talk function, so Wendy and Razor can never talk to each other. (So that doesn't pass it.)
Edna will only talk to you when she captures you, where she then mentions that it's a good thing you're not a boy. (So that doesn't pass it either.)
And Razor will only talk to someone other than Dave, after you complete the game with Dave dead, where obviously she talks about dave. (So even that doesn't pass it.)
So seriously, where does Maniac Mansion pass the Bechdel test? Because I can't figure it out.  :-\

Hm, considering all this you're right Danvzare. So even the old good MM don't fits.

_

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #427 on: 26 Feb 2021, 17:57 »
Completely random, but I think that formally this game passes Bechdel  test in the very first minute, because there are two women talking about their life situation during introduction:
https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=45593.0

Yeah, the game title is... lol. I think it's a dark comedy, but I never played it through. It was a part of a Bake Sale (or similar event), and it is not in AGS database sadly, and I dont know where exactly to get it now :/.

Also, "The Cat Lady". And some of the "Blackwell" games where main character has a conversation with her aunt for instance.
But then again, it's kind of a random way to test games too, more suitable for statistics rather than anything imo.
« Last Edit: 26 Feb 2021, 18:02 by Crimson Wizard »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #428 on: 26 Feb 2021, 18:00 »
I think this paragraph should be required reading for every man trying to write a female love interest, this sentence in particular;
Having read that paragraph, all I can say is that no guy wants a girl like that. Except those jocks who you always see playing the bully in 80s movies.  (laugh)
You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them.
With a quote like that, I thought it was going to be about anime girls (I've heard similar things being said in lots of reviews for bad anime). Instead it's about "Cool Girls".  :-X
Which are obviously girls that only exist in the mind of a teenage frat boy. You know, the kind of guy everybody (and I do mean everybody) hates.  (roll)
Oh, if only...
But for every awful jock, there are just as many guys who think they are so much better than those jocks, yet still think they deserve a girlfriend who will bend over backward to curl for them anyway, and the quote I cited mentions several other types too;
It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics.

It's not about one kind of guy, because awful and entitled guys can come from any background or have any interests, but looking back at this debate, and many similar debates I've seen, lots of men will have the gut reaction to blame
another group of guys they aren't part of, similar to how some people will claim that the only racists are stereotypical hilbillies. I'm not in the habit of plugging podcasts, but I think a prime example of this is in this episode from the loremen podcast, wherein 1800s London, a number of women on the streets were non-fatally stabbed by a man who'd run away afterward, nicknamed "the London monster" by the public. And during these events a group of guys, disappointed that this had made London women more nervous in public and making it harder for the guys to flirt with them, decided that the obvious solution was to form the "no monster club", and basically, the logic was that if any man belonged to the No Monster Club, he wasn't the London monster, and therefore, said man would automatically be a good and decent man women should trust. And the only thing needed to enter the No Monster Club was simply to say you were part of it (totally not open for abuse  (roll) ).

This is a very extreme example, but I think this really showcases how it feels to a lot of women when a lot of guys will be so quick to say "oh sure it's awful, but it's only those kind of guys who do it and I'm obviously and visibly not that kind of guy".
I once had the misfortune to work in a place where there were a diverse set of men working, Swedes and immigrants from various nations, guys of all ages and with varied interests and levels of education, and they were all laughing along at the same sexist and homophobic jokes. There is no "magic bullet" that will make you immune to being a jerk, all you can do is just to keep being on your best behavior and be ready to call others out on it if you want to avoid being one.

Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent here, but this is something I've been thinking of for a while and think more people ought to consider.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #429 on: 26 Feb 2021, 18:11 »
Completely random, but I think that formally this game passes Bechdel  test in the very first minute, because there are two women talking about their life situation during introduction:
https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=45593.0

Yeah, the game title is... lol. I think it's a dark comedy, but I never played it through. It was a part of a Bake Sale (or similar event), and it is not in AGS database sadly, and I dont know where exactly to get it now :/.

Also, "The Cat Lady".
But then again, it's kind of a random way to test games too, more suitable for statistics rather than anything imo.
Yeah, the Bechdel test isn't a test on how feminist a story is or how good role models the characters are (also, where I'm from at least, "whore" is considered a severe slur, so well, not the greatest title...),
the original point was to showcase how few movies never featured women talking to one another, usually because the writer didn't care to write women as anything other than a love interest fawning over a guy,
but to prove how insufficient the Bechdel test is on its own, plenty of modern filmmakers "solved" it by just having to women have a quick 1 minute chat about something, then go right back to being stereotypical love interests.

I think the Bechdel test is simply garnering so much attention because it's easier to add a short snippet of dialogue to a story than stepping up and working hard to write a cast with truly nuanced and interesting female characters
and actually give them important roles to play rather than making them a gender-swapped equivalent to Boba Fett.


Danvzare

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #430 on: 03 Mar 2021, 18:34 »
Oh, if only...
But for every awful jock, there are just as many guys who think they are so much better than those jocks, yet still think they deserve a girlfriend who will bend over backward to curl for them anyway, and the quote I cited mentions several other types too;
It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics.
I would absolutely love to get you in the same room as my sister. She'd probably turn your entire worldview upside down. (laugh)
For instance, look up Lady Death comics. That's what my sister likes. (nod)
And trust me, she does not give a crap about what any man thinks. She likes what she likes, because she likes them.

That being said, I think it's a little unfair that you changed the definition of "Cool Girl" to "Dream Girl". Of course nobody's "Dream Girl" exists, that's what the "Dream" part means. (roll)
But, there are a lot of people that do need to realize that. So your your point does stand.  (nod)
It just needs to be worded better.


This is a very extreme example, but I think this really showcases how it feels to a lot of women when a lot of guys will be so quick to say "oh sure it's awful, but it's only those kind of guys who do it and I'm obviously and visibly not that kind of guy".
I once had the misfortune to work in a place where there were a diverse set of men working, Swedes and immigrants from various nations, guys of all ages and with varied interests and levels of education, and they were all laughing along at the same sexist and homophobic jokes. There is no "magic bullet" that will make you immune to being a jerk, all you can do is just to keep being on your best behavior and be ready to call others out on it if you want to avoid being one.

Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent here, but this is something I've been thinking of for a while and think more people ought to consider.
"oh sure it's awful, but it's only those kind of guys who do it and I'm obviously and visibly not that kind of guy", well I'd hate to break it to you, but people like to defend themselves.
If someone called you one of those straw-man argument man-hating feminists, you would probably be quick to point out that those types of people are awful, but you're not one of those types of people.
Don't paint everyone with the same brush, and don't complain when someone tells you not to.
That being said, I am a little bit sexist and a little bit racist (I'm probably even a little bit homophobic). It's ingrained into me through cultural osmosis. You probably are too.  :-D The question is, are you more than me?
At least I'm willing to question that what I believe might be wrong. You on the other hand, based on what I've read on this thread, seem quite adamant that nothing you believe in is wrong.
You need to question yourself more, re-evaluate your beliefs, and most importantly, stop going to articles written by people who think the same way as you. Diversify and question things more!
That's why I love talk to you. You're my way of doing exactly that. :-D


Also, of course they were all laughing at the same sexist and homophobic jokes, it's called reading the room. Trust me, you don't want to be the one guy to point out that this joke (or comment) is sexist, homophobic, or racist, in the middle of a friendly conversation. You aren't going to change them, you're just going to piss them off, and probably even make them worse (I'm not kidding, it's a psychological effect that happens).
I mean sure, if it goes too far, step in, but otherwise keep your mouth shut.  (roll)
You don't stop that stuff by highlighting it every chance you get.



Also, as for "Nancy the Happy Whore and the Perfidious Petrol Station".
I've played it. Good game. The title is a bit off-putting, but the characters are quite lovable. Nancy's optimism is just so entertaining.  :-D
It's short though.

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #431 on: 03 Mar 2021, 20:57 »
I would absolutely love to get you in the same room as my sister. She'd probably turn your entire worldview upside down. (laugh)
For instance, look up Lady Death comics. That's what my sister likes. (nod)
And trust me, she does not give a crap about what any man thinks. She likes what she likes, because she likes them.
Well, it'd be interesting to hear her point of view, but I will say that it's not exactly news to me that there are women who like divisive comics and similar media too,
and while I think Lady Death has a silly costume, I don't find some women liking her that strange compared to much other stuff actively marketed towards women.

Feel free to ask her to join the forum if you think she'd be interested.
"oh sure it's awful, but it's only those kind of guys who do it and I'm obviously and visibly not that kind of guy", well I'd hate to break it to you, but people like to defend themselves.
If someone called you one of those straw-man argument man-hating feminists, you would probably be quick to point out that those types of people are awful, but you're not one of those types of people.
Don't paint everyone with the same brush, and don't complain when someone tells you not to.
That being said, I am a little bit sexist and a little bit racist (I'm probably even a little bit homophobic). It's ingrained into me through cultural osmosis. You probably are too.  :-D The question is, are you more than me?
At least I'm willing to question that what I believe might be wrong. You on the other hand, based on what I've read on this thread, seem quite adamant that nothing you believe in is wrong.
You need to question yourself more, re-evaluate your beliefs, and most importantly, stop going to articles written by people who think the same way as you. Diversify and question things more!
That's why I love talk to you. You're my way of doing exactly that. :-D
I wasn't trying to call you out personally, and I'm sorry if it came across that way, but I really wanted to comment on a pattern I've seen for quite a while now.
Of course people don't want to see themselves as the baddie, but I do think there's a difference between saying "I try my best not to do this" and saying "only this group of other people do this".
I'm sorry if my first comment failed to clarify this.

And I do question myself and my beliefs, nearly every day, whether I'm not polite enough, whether I'm too harsh, whether I'm writing too much for people to read or not enough to explain my position.
I want to make clear that I do not think that the vast majority of guys in this forum is deliberately or intentionally sexist (in fact, this is one of the nicest corners of the Internet I've been to), but
many do or say things that are unintentionally sexist, and I've been trying to point some of this out as politely as I can, but it's hard when all of this has been stereotyped from the get-go as some
oversensitive and irrational prudery since the time of the suffragettes.

Anyway, I will say that I greatly appreciate your commenting on this, and being willing to have a good-faith debate on this.  (nod)
Also, of course they were all laughing at the same sexist and homophobic jokes, it's called reading the room. Trust me, you don't want to be the one guy to point out that this joke (or comment) is sexist, homophobic, or racist, in the middle of a friendly conversation. You aren't going to change them, you're just going to piss them off, and probably even make them worse (I'm not kidding, it's a psychological effect that happens).
I mean sure, if it goes too far, step in, but otherwise keep your mouth shut.  (roll)
You don't stop that stuff by highlighting it every chance you get.
I don't want to replicate any of the jokes I've heard there, but I will say that those jokes at the place I mentioned were really, really bad.
And I didn't say anything at the time, because they were a big group of burly men laughing at those jokes, but that just meant I and any other women or closeted gay men had to suffer in silence.

It's basically a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, because I fully understand your point, it's so easy to just
make them angry and write you off as a stuck-up prude, and frame their "jokes" as some cool rebellion against pc culture,
but at the same time, if you don't tell them off, they'll take silence as approval and keep dehumanizing women and minorities,
and it's been proven time and time again that accepting such humour also makes people more willing to write off more serious hate crimes
and harassment as not a big deal, and vulnerable people get harassed into leaving places where it's allowed.

Like that place I used to work? I left it, in large part because I couldn't stand the people there anymore, and the few who seemed otherwise decent never spoke up against the a******s.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #432 on: 03 Mar 2021, 21:13 »
And to prove feminists aren't all fun-hating killjoys, I want to share a sample of a great parody comic highlighting some of the absurd stereotypes mentioned here:






Ali

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #433 on: 04 Mar 2021, 10:14 »
I'm not in the habit of plugging podcasts, but I think a prime example of this is in this episode from the loremen podcast, wherein 1800s London, a number of women on the streets were non-fatally stabbed by a man who'd run away afterward, nicknamed "the London monster" by the public.

Thank you for the plug. One of the most revealing things about that story is how ready people were to believe a single monster, or a co-ordinated team of monsters were responsible for a spate of attacks. Because the unpalatable alternative was that men - in general - were in the habit of harassing and assaulting women in the street. (Of course, the podcast doesn't pass the Bechdel test, unfortunately.)

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #434 on: 04 Mar 2021, 11:17 »
I'm not in the habit of plugging podcasts, but I think a prime example of this is in this episode from the loremen podcast, wherein 1800s London, a number of women on the streets were non-fatally stabbed by a man who'd run away afterward, nicknamed "the London monster" by the public.

Thank you for the plug. One of the most revealing things about that story is how ready people were to believe a single monster, or a co-ordinated team of monsters were responsible for a spate of attacks. Because the unpalatable alternative was that men - in general - were in the habit of harassing and assaulting women in the street. (Of course, the podcast doesn't pass the Bechdel test, unfortunately.)
Just goes to show not everything has to pass the test in order to be a good commentary!  :)


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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #435 on: 05 Mar 2021, 14:50 »
Also, of course they were all laughing at the same sexist and homophobic jokes, it's called reading the room. Trust me, you don't want to be the one guy to point out that this joke (or comment) is sexist, homophobic, or racist, in the middle of a friendly conversation. You aren't going to change them, you're just going to piss them off, and probably even make them worse (I'm not kidding, it's a psychological effect that happens).
I mean sure, if it goes too far, step in, but otherwise keep your mouth shut.  (roll)
You don't stop that stuff by highlighting it every chance you get.
You don't need to do it every chance you get. Most people are normal enough that if you say it once, they won't repeat it in front of you specifically. And if just a second person from the same group says it again, then they'll usually be "Oh, I guess I shouldn't publicly make these sort of jokes".
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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #436 on: 05 Mar 2021, 20:48 »
Also, of course they were all laughing at the same sexist and homophobic jokes, it's called reading the room. Trust me, you don't want to be the one guy to point out that this joke (or comment) is sexist, homophobic, or racist, in the middle of a friendly conversation. You aren't going to change them, you're just going to piss them off, and probably even make them worse (I'm not kidding, it's a psychological effect that happens).
I mean sure, if it goes too far, step in, but otherwise keep your mouth shut.  (roll)
You don't stop that stuff by highlighting it every chance you get.
You don't need to do it every chance you get. Most people are normal enough that if you say it once, they won't repeat it in front of you specifically. And if just a second person from the same group says it again, then they'll usually be "Oh, I guess I shouldn't publicly make these sort of jokes".
I say this is why standing up for others is the most important thing you can do in your daily life, because if somebody is willing to risk ruining the mood and be labeled a killjoy prude for calling out a mean joke,
chances are it's really that bad, and while I can agree that one person calling it out mighrt not change anything, those who do often do so exactly because they hope to bring it to light to decent people who might have missed the severity of it.


Matti

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #437 on: 06 Mar 2021, 13:31 »
Agreed.

Keeping your mouth shut or even laughing at said jokes you're supporting that kind of behavior. Those guys just feel reassured and validated, because they'll never be confronted about their sexist or racist views. If anything they need to keep their mouthes shut.

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #438 on: 06 Mar 2021, 13:52 »
Agreed.

Keeping your mouth shut or even laughing at said jokes you're supporting that kind of behavior. Those guys just feel reassured and validated, because they'll never be confronted about their sexist or racist views. If anything they need to keep their mouthes shut.
Plus it's not just validating bad guys, if you don't see anyone else speaking out, you have zero way of telling the gross bigots apart from "nice guys" who don't want to be bigoted but just don't want to "kill the vibes",
and it gets easy to believe that every one of them is nodding along because they genuinely agree with the bigotry, and you are weird and alone and should just stop caring.

It's that kind of stuff that leads to cases of schools simply expelling bullying victims to get rid of the "troublemaker" complaining rather than taking the work and effort to show the bullies that what they're doing isn't accepted.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #439 on: 08 Mar 2021, 10:45 »
Good discussion everybody.

I think this paragraph should be required reading for every man trying to write a female love interest

Funnily enough I watched Gone Girl very recently (great movie), and this scene / passage from the book just confused me.

What is its purpose? I understand that the monologue has become iconic for some feminists (see here and here).

But to my mind it is just the words of a character in a novel (an extraordinarily evil and vengeful character). This interview with Flynn in The Guardian suggests to me the evilness of Amy was the primary feminist motivation of the book. Flynn says that feminism is 'also the ability to have women who are bad characters… the one thing that really frustrates me is this idea that women are innately good, innately nurturing'.

For me, the 'Cool Girl' monologue is owned entirely by Amy's character, and it certainly does not reveal any real-life wisdom on how 'men' actually think, or how 'women' perceive they should be. Flynn's 'lurid plots make no claim to social realism: to interpret her evil female characters as somehow representative of their real-life gender, you must willfully overlook hundreds of pages of other people and events that you'd almost certainly never encounter in reality, either.'

So I am absolutely on the same page as Danvzare here:

Having read that paragraph, all I can say is that no guy wants a girl like that.

I will add that some men probably do, but at least no man I've ever met in my life.

My overall point is that I don't need to read the Cool Girl monologue in order to write a female love interest. It is a monologue that is a work of fiction in itself.
« Last Edit: 08 Mar 2021, 10:56 by Atelier »