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Author Topic: DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )  (Read 2168 times)

Andail

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The topic is:

Heterosexuality is just a social convention. Bisexuality is the natural way.

Plasticman and Leksutin agree, and get the first post

Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #1 on: 05 May 2003, 19:29 »
First of all, the term "heterosexuality" (as well as homosexuality and bisexuality of course) barely existed 100 years ago. This is relatively important because the point of this debate is that the heterosexual/homosexual scheme is a product of our society, not nature.
Now, since these concepts are only historical, they can be deconstructed just as they were constructed.

Sex is often seen as a reproductive function, a means rather than an end. The biological characteristics of males and females, which represent "nature" for many people, compose what is usually the main argument of those who declare heterosexuality the normal way.
The problem is that what is natural is what we do by instinct ; and it is undeniable that we can be instinctively attracted to people of the same sex as well as the opposite. But because of our education and basically our exposition to those social conventions, we tend to repress our natural bisexuality. This repression eventually leads to a latent sexual complex, which can degenerate and give identity complexes to some people. We can define one of the syptoms as homosexuality, which translates your need to free your natural sexuality.

But while most of us today can tolerate homosexuality, - which conforts us into knowing that we are in the norm ourselves - it is hard to imagine living in a society rid of those same norms. Such a society is yet possible, and i'll give the example of ancient Greece, where bisexuality was common, and where different sexual preferencies were experienced as a natural thing rather than an illness. This example shows that our hetero/homosexual system is peculiar to this society - and thus has nothing to do with nature.

Vel

    • Vel worked on one or more games that won an AGS Award!
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Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #2 on: 05 May 2003, 19:50 »
Here goes...

Bisexuality is not the natural way. Today, many people tolerate homo- and bi-sexualists, but they are tolerated because they are minority. In the eyes of the society they are odd and weird. Thats why they are making their own societies. Today homo- and bi-sexuality is not the natural way and has never been. The most obvious proof for this statement is that if it was natural, men would be able to reproduce themselves without the need of women and vice versa. If God and/or supernatural powers and/or nature made us, human beings, with bisexuality our normal way of thinking, we would be able to reproduce ourselves without the "help" of the other sex. Bisexuality may have been common in ancient Greece, but then and there people appreciated one's mental powers and that is why it was so common. There were even women for hire for simply intelectual company (no, no sex). What I am trying to say is that homo and bi-sexualists are people with congenital psychical aberrations. You do not choose to be a gay or a bisexualists, you are born such.

Over to you.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2003, 19:51 by Vel »

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Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #3 on: 05 May 2003, 20:43 »
So, what do we associate bisexuality with? Well, it's not too hard to work out that it is basically not letting the gender of someone interfere with sexual relations towards them. And the motion proposed by Monsieurs Lestukin and Plasticman is that having this irreverance is a good thing, and should be encouraged. Now, there are many things wrong with this idea. Firstly, irreverance, and not caring about some features of a partner is a form of lying. I would argue that everyone has their idea of the perfect opposite, and gender, unlike hair color, race and other things makes a big difference. Males and Females usually have different personalities and appearances, and definatley have different anatonmical configurations.

Also, I would say that 80% of people who are or have been Bisexual are merely curious. They're interested in seeing if the sexual experience is better, or are just taking all they can get. As Woody Allen said, 'It immediately doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night.' But does it double your chances of having a successfull relationship? Hell no. What happens to the curious people who decide that it's really not for them? They treat it as a disgusting memory. This not only changes their attitude towards homosexual people, it also can hurt people who were 'used' by  the 'explorer.'

Homosexuality, as the honorable man made out of plastic said, was widely practiced among the cultures of the ancient world. So was the exploitation of young people, of animals and the non-ruling races for sexual 'kicks'. Is this something to be encouraged? The ancient greek attitude for men was that one would have a wife to provide children, and then have wild alchohol fuelled orgies for amusment. There were no marriages of same sex people, or suchlike.. The attitude was that this was all for fun and enjoyment.

I would argue that we, today, are more tolerant. We allow marriage between any 2 people, regardless of gender, but we don't allow the non-chalant exploitation the Greeks indulged in. What you seem to not understand is that there are three types of love : Fraternal, Personal and Sexual. The First kind, the basis of friendship, has no limits. Nor does the second,  the basis of healthy relationships. But the third does have limits...

Why?

Basically, it's due to morality. There's a joke that goes something like...
Why do guys give their dicks names??? Because they don't want their most important decisions to be made by a total stranger... We need to prevent exploitation of people because of this. Prostitution and rape are either illegal or restricted in every country in the world. The point I make seems to be understood by almost everyone - That the Third type of love needs to be tied to the second one. Every Animal has this built in to their basic instincts...Humans are the only ones who have intercourse for 'fun'. Hell, it's not that bad when between a couple...
I'm not going to spend ages argue that heterosexuality is the best course right now, since the main point of this argument was that bisexuality is not the way, and Vel has done a great job of reaffirming that heterosexuality is the natural way anyhow. I can only proove that true love only happens between non-bisexual people.

I'll use the analogy of a freeway, because it sorta represents life, and freeways go somewhere (unlike these British 'Highway' things.) Without doubt, the destination would be true love and a working relationship. Along the freeway, there are 'stops' for necessary and unecessary things. One of those things would have to be 'sex', and there are obviously lots of these. But you don't just head for the closest one. You head towards the goal of most people, a healthy relationship. If you want to stop at a turnoff, you stop at one on the way you're going. But you don't drive from stop to stop looking for kicks; that only leads to lonliness, and quite possibly a few ugly diseases.


EDIT: This is off topic (and I'm not changing my arguments, so don't penalize me if someone posts while I'm writing this..), but my nickname is actually 'Alkaline' not 'Alcaline'. It's basically a corruption of my first name (Alexander, shortened to Alex and then to Al) and last name (Cline, but the name derives from the German Kline). It also is a word in the english language... Alkaline is an adjective to describe something that is an 'Alkali'. An 'Alkali' happens to be the opposite to acid, a base, but it also has to be soluable... So, yeah, All your base IS belong to me...[/b] Heh. Yeah, it's a Pseudonym. And it's not very good (like my analogies I guess). But it'd be cool if you'd change it Mr. Moderater dude..
« Last Edit: 05 May 2003, 20:55 by [Alkaline] »
Alex 'Alkaline' Cline

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Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #4 on: 05 May 2003, 20:51 »
I'd like to answer two aspects of your affirmations.
First, you repeat that bisexuality is not the natural way, but you don't really explain why. This seems to be your argument :


Quote
if it was natural, men would be able to reproduce themselves without the need of women and vice versa
We're talking about sexuality, not just reproduction. You're forgetting the aspect of pleasure. And this debate opposes heterosexuality to bisexuality, not homosexuality. The question is rather about whether we can be attracted by people regardless of their sex or not.


Quote
homo and bi-sexualists are people with congenital psychical aberrations. You do not choose to be a gay or a bisexualists, you are born such.
You say bisexuals are born such. Then if it's not natural, what is it - an anomaly ? Are you going to quote the bible to prove that point ? I think you should develop that point.

edit- about my example concerning ancient Greece : my point was not that it was an example of a succesful society. I was proving that our hetero/homosexual conventions were not universal, but inherent to specific civilizations. Which helps demonstrating how it is a social construct.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2003, 20:57 by plasticman »

Vel

    • Vel worked on one or more games that won an AGS Award!
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    • Vel worked on one or more games that was nominated for an AGS Award!
Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #5 on: 05 May 2003, 21:22 »
1. I am not speaking of  curios men and women Alkaline spoke of. I am speaking of born bisexualists, who enjoy sex with either gender. I think a sexual orientation is natural only when (<=> mathematical symbol) its outcome can continue life.
2. That is what I think - homo and bi-sexuality are an anomaly. Take insanity, for example. When people are born, their DNA consists whether the people are "normal"(I put this word in quotations because there is no criteria for normal people. Infact, we are all insane to some extent) or "insane"(the same reason). There may be some other reasons in the life of a person, which can "unlock" the insanity door. The same goes for bisexuality.

Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #6 on: 05 May 2003, 23:12 »
To make this more understandable, I will respectively answer each of Alkaline's paragraphs separately.

My conception of bisexuality differs of yours : of course both genders are different, and that's important. I think bisexuality is about acknowledging the attractiveness you can find in both genders. Most people agree that men can have a feminine side and vice-versa. This applies to physical aspects as well as psychological. If a guy is attracted by a tomboyish girl, does it make him gay or is he still hetero ? My answer is that his bisexuality is simply expressing itself.

If someone is willing to experience sex with a partner of the same gender, that person is not simply curious. You can't force yourself to have sex with someone you don't find attractive just for the sake of curiosity. People act like that because they feel like they're missing something. They're understanding that their attraction is legitimate, because it's instinctive and not imposed by any form of social convention.

I precised my intentions about the greek example in my last post, so I'll pass this.

You speak of tolerance as if our society had the right to accept or reject an individual's sexuality. What happens in your bedroom (or anywhere else, you get the point) doesn't concern anyone but you and your partners, as long as nobody else is harmed.

About the three types of love you mention : you say the third needs to come along with the second. But since you admit yourself that we can feel "personal" love for someone of the same sex, why couldn't we feel "sexual" love too ? You're pretending that bisexual relationships are only based on a physical aspect (what you call "fun"); that seems pretty impossible to demonstrate. Not admitting that a bisexual couple can have deep feelings one for each other would be dishonest.

I must admit that I don't really see how you analogy is relevant. Rather than simplifying the topic, it only makes it more obsure in my opinion. Instead of planning your sentimental life, I'd recommend that you listen to your feelings. If you feel attraction for another guy, are you going to inhibit that instinct because you think it's against your morals ? Which would be the natural choice ? The answer seems pretty obvious.


Vel - why do you think that "a sexual orientation is natural only when [...] its outcome can continue life" ?
If we have the ability to live a fulfilled life not just consisting of eating, reproducing and then dying - shouldn't we take the opportunity ?
« Last Edit: 05 May 2003, 23:14 by plasticman »

Vel

    • Vel worked on one or more games that won an AGS Award!
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Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #7 on: 06 May 2003, 15:15 »
Plasticman, this is the purpose of life - to be born, to reproduce and leave something behind, and then to die. Taking the opportunity of not having a life just consisting eating and reproducing is very different from having sex with either gender. You also contradict yourself:

"If someone is willing to experience sex with a partner of the same gender, that person is not simply curious. You can't force yourself to have sex with someone you don't find attractive just for the sake of curiosity. People act like that because they feel like they're missing something. They're understanding that their attraction is legitimate, because it's instinctive and not imposed by any form of social convention."

At the end of your post you say:

"If we have the ability to live a fulfilled life not just consisting of eating, reproducing and then dying - shouldn't we take the opportunity ?"

If the second quote refers to bisexuality, it more or less brings to mind the thought of curiosity - something you have rejected in the first quote.

|Alky|

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Re:DC-Match 5 (Alcaline/Vel vs Plasticman/Leksutin )
« Reply #8 on: 06 May 2003, 16:48 »
My conception of bisexuality differs of yours : of course both genders are different, and that's important. I think bisexuality is about acknowledging the attractiveness you can find in both genders.
How is that any different? It's perfectly obvious that, whether you take your description or mine, we're talking about the physical form...

The 'Personality' side, the 'yin' and 'yang' isn't, in my opinion, associated with gender as much as it was a long time ago. There are female weightlifters, and male nurses and suchlike. And your 'tomboy' example is flawed because of this. Barring major operations, the 'tomboy' remains anatomically female, and therefore just as attractive sexually. Occasionally, same-sex couples form from people who are attracted by each other's mental gender, but these are unnatural, and very rare. Like it or not, Heterosexuality is not just a social convention. It's the social convention. Why? Because it's also a natural convention. Hormones make this so, and while I don't like to insult homosexuals by saying this, they are actually going against nature, whether this is caused by insanity of not.

Quote
Most people agree that men can have a feminine side and vice-versa. This applies to physical aspects as well as psychological.
Physical aspects? I was always taught in biology that men do not have a physical 'feminine' side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your anatomical knowledge is flawed. There are small features associated with each gender that are interchangable, but these often aren't associated with inner personality at all. Both punk rockers and 5th avenue models have long hair. 60's Tv hostesses and Babylonian high councilmen have had long eyelashes. These features are social conventions. But the basic male-female equation has remained the same, defined by the DNA that keeps species alive.

Quote
And this debate opposes heterosexuality to bisexuality, not homosexuality
Wrong. The first part of the debate is heterosexuality is/isn't natural. The second part is that bi-sexuality should/shouldn't be encouraged.

Having mainly concentrated on the second clause, I'll attempt to clear that up. So...

Quote
You can't force yourself to have sex with someone...
I agree. So any type of encouragement is wrong, and people should stick to the default. If they happen to be fixed so as to be attracted towards their own gender, so be it. But the majority are 'straight', and would be no matter how soceity worked. People who aren't should be able to work that out 'once and for all'. Bisexuality is being attracted to both genders at once, and is probably either a result of not wanting to be thought of as strange by the community(which they have to accept. Minorities are always going to be thought of as strange and unusual, simply because they are not usual. Get it?) or as a result of curiousity as to which is better.

Surely everone can see that Bisexuality should not be encouraged (whether it should be discouraged or not is another matter, isn't it?). Natural human sexual relations are heterosexual. As much as you want to, you can't argue that there is biological, theoretical and (in all other species, and 98% of cultures) psychological proof agreeing that this is the case.
« Last Edit: 06 May 2003, 16:52 by [Alkaline] »
Alex 'Alkaline' Cline

We're going back to the tick tock to get the boo-boo. Send for backup. - Baby's Day Out