YE GRANDE ELITIST OLD GUARD FORUM?? pros and cons

[Trapezoid]

I'm still not sure what the problem is and why it needs to be "fixed."
This is not a tiny community anymore, it's a fairly open forum, and we need to deal with it carefully. I can't believe some of you would snub the newbies just because they're newbies. CJ's had to deal with more newbies than ANY of you (including you), and he's still polite. And sane.
What few Trolls we've had over the years were all jokes and have disappeared. Even the 13 year olds are pretty polite around here, for 13 year olds. There are hardly any real persistant annoyances. If a person is *that bad*, then odds are they'll disappear. Despite all the newbies, there are more professional quality games than ever. The forums are just bigger, the ratios are still about the same.

[Nellie]

I think Trapezoid is mainly right.  The problem mostly comes from the oldbies' perceptions, rather than actual change in the forums.

'The lowering quality of the forums' threads have been going on for at least as long as I joined, and that was over 2 years ago.  Actually, some things have got better in the forums.  Doesn't anyone remember those 'just testing my signature' threads we used to get?

On top of this, consider that the 'big topics' - God, Evolution, Politics, Morals, blah - have already been covered by the oldbies multiple times, and so of course the threads in Gen Gen will contain less thoughtful discussion now than previously.  This is not because of the influx of newbies, but because there's less thoughtful topics for the oldbies to cover.  When a newbie starts up a thread about God, they even get some oldbies posting, telling them the discussion has been done before and is pointless!

Despite all this, I'm in favour of a second, invitation-only, forum.  I don't believe for a second that oldbies will stop posting in this forum - they don't have a monopoly on interesting topics, and will continue to respond to threads that catch their attention.  Also, it will prove the problem either way - either the (attitude towards) newbies are the problem, in which case the new forum will be a roaring success, or they aren't, in which case it won't.

Plus it might go some way towards removing the increasingly paranoid and humourless attitude in here.  Honestly, I reckon some of the lighthearted threads that turned up in the ezboard forums would be locked within seconds here if a newbie started them:

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsgeneraldiscussion.showMessage?topicID=960.topic

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsgeneraldiscussion.showMessage?topicID=998.topic

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsgeneraldiscussion.showMessage?topicID=1101.topic

[Robert Eric]

 



Memories.

[Trapezoid]

I just had an idea which I PM'd to Chris.
10 post per day limit...

[SSH]

Trap: then people will log out and post as guests...   and would it apply to all forums? What about people who are replying to lots of questions in the tech forums?

[Chrille]

Hmm, a post limit has been discussed I think. It would be even better if Chris could set post limits to only those who post too much nonsense and then remove it if they improve their manners.

[Trapezoid]

I also suggested that the limit not apply in the tech forum, and that it turns off after you've been registered for a certain period (maybe a few months.)
I don't know about posting as a guest... Maybe it could go by the IP address.

Also, I wouldn't want it to only apply to certain nuisances. If this sort of thing is done it needs to be objective.

[Pumaman]

The gen gen is a useful forum - it allows more of a community spirit to evolve because people can talk about stuff other than adventure games.

However, lately it's just too fast for many members. Many of us, particularly the 'oldies', tend to stop by here once a day or less - whereas there is another group of people who tend to read the forum much more regularly.

This causes an effect where you can read the forum one day, come back the next day and find that all the posts you were interested in have scrolled off the bottom of the page.

For example, I didn't read this forum on Tuesday. The following day I check in, and find a new 172-post thread. How are we supposed to keep up?

A new, more relaxed, forum where those of us who are less hyperactive can go to have leisurely discussions sounds like a good idea for all concerned, and it would also stop the moaning that tends to happen here about the state of the forum.

Therefore, I am proposing to give it a 1 month trial. After a month, we can review it and decide what to do.

Now, the main thing are the criteria for this new forum. It's important to do this right, so that it works and doesn't cause any resentment and so forth.

The two main questions are:
1. Should the forum be visible or hidden to non-members?

There are arguments both ways for this. The advantage of it being visible is that non-members can still lurk and get a feel for what's going on. It would also mean that new members would know there was an alternative, if the gen gen was too childish for them.

Being hidden on the other hand would stop the inevitable "how can i get axx to teh forum" style posts and would stop people asking questions about it.

2. How are new members recruited to the forum?

Who should be a member? Who decides? The problem is at this point that starting the forum now and hand-picking members is inevitably going to make some people bitter if they are left out but feel they should be part of it. How can we deal with this?

Once it is established, how are new members recruited? Should it get any new members at all?

Things to consider, people.

I just had an idea which I PM'd to Chris.
10 post per day limit...

I think enforcing a limit might be going too far - but an alternative, more moderate solution that was suggested to me was to have everybody's average number of posts per day displayed under their avatar.
The number could turn yellow if they were posting more than a set amount (eg. 10 per day), and turn red if they were way over-posting (eg. 20 per day).

Hopefully this could embarass them into slowing down... any thoughts?

[Czar]

Why did it even have to come to this, i remember that at the start of the year it was the biggest nebie incoming, i remember that from cca. 500 it came in one month to 800-900.
So i think basicly the biggest newbie flood has passed and now they just need to adjust to the enviroment...
Maybe i'm talkin nonsense and making typos, but thats just a newbie opinion(btw i've been there since the last dos version the 2.32, innit?   )

[Goldmund]

Pumaman:
I'm for invisible.
That's because I didn't think of the new forum as An Example of Thoughtful and Fyne Posting, but more like an old community area. For example, I love to read nonsense from, say, Las Naranjas, whereas I don't like to read nonsense from unknown people! That's selfish and xenophobic and what not, but I simply think that oldbies shouldn't feel compelled by invisible watchers to prove smarter than they are.
Such a forum may become boring very quickly!

As for choosing members, I say first let's register all people from ezboards.
Reason:
That's the ONLY clear criterion, not based on any judgements on people's intelligence or whatever.
Was it made only for people with a game, what about Gilbot (or me, in a quieter voice)?
THEN, people can simply remember who should also be invited from YABB forums and do so.

And for people worried for oldbies disappearing:
It's going (at least I think so) to be just a gen-gen for old members, people who know themselves well, not an equivalent of technical, game announcment or general forum!

[TheDude]

As a newbie, i'm all for the oldies having their own forum if they want it. If it's invisible to us, then surely ours should be invisible to them since it'd be a little unfair if we couldn't see their convo's but they could nose in on ours.

[Trapezoid]

No way we're doing full segregation. If we're making an oldies forum, I say let the newbies lurk. Nobody ever said they had a problem with the newbies READING their posts, did they?
That said, for a newbie to behave they need more than moderators. They need the oldies to set a good example, right? If we do make an Oldies Forum, the oldies had better not neglect the original General Forum. It's not worth it to have an Oldies Forum if it means we'll no longer be there to help and teach the newbies.

[Nellie]

I strongly second that - the newbies should be able to read the oldbies forum.

On the 'posting nonsense' issue, I think we should just be upfront about it.  Either we say everybody is allowed to post silly things, JoeSmith300 just as much as Las Naranjas, or we simply say it's a privilege of the oldbies forum, but has to be rationed in Gen Gen because of the bandwidth.  I think nonsense posts will be a rare occurence in the Oldbies forum anyway, so there won't be much difference.

Though that depends how you define nonsense, I suppose.


On recruiting members, just get a few obvious oldbies together (the uber-oldbies, as it were), and get them to compile a list of members who should join.  When there's disagreement there could be a majority vote (with more than a majority of 1 needed if you want the forums to be super-exclusive ).  In practice this will probably mirror Goldmund's suggestion closely, but it's a much cooler 'secret-society' idea than his, so it's clearly superior.

Heck, if there's disagreement, the newbie/middlebie in question could even be invited to put their case forward to the panel, for further consideration.

And in future, newbies who've attracted the panel's attention and are a borderline case could be sent a PM hinting that a contribution to the community (a tutorial, review, music, whatever) or just maintaining their good form for a while will get them in.  The thing could be an encouragement for people to get involved in community stuff.

Or to send the oldbies bribes in hard cash, naturally.

[MrColossal]

i think this is all pretty sad and i keep thinking of the sentence that helm said once, and i said, and dg said and cj said and everyone has said at least once in their life here

shouldn't we be more focused on making games and not posting in a forum

[Trapezoid]

Wait, if we all focused on making games, which would allegedly make the forums a better place, wouldn't we then be more compelled to be at the improved forums? AHhhh paradox!!!

[Scummbuddy]

How about this:

We have the AGS Awards, we could use them to award people entrance to post in the Olbie thread.  If someone has showed enough spirit in the year or less they've been here, and deserve the jump, then yes, do it, by all means, if not, then they have the next year.

"Gilmore, I called your name, didn't I?" "No coach, you didn't."  "Oh well, better luck next year.  har har" <Punch> "That wasn't very nice, coach!"

[juncmodule]

I like Goldmund's idea for selecting members because it seems fair.

As far as hidden or not, once again, I second Goldmund's idea. I honestly think it would just breed envy and issues between members of the board.

Perhaps after a long trial period (not counting the initial trial period) we could let members in based on ideas like Scummbuddy's. But, initially I think giving it a competition "air" is a REALLY bad idea. Newbies are already getting their panties up in a bunch over this.

Also after the long trial period consideration could be given to "unhiding" it.

Hiding it and inviting ONLY members to the old forum is probably the safest way to deal with people that disagree with the idea. Honestly, crying and pouting about it will just prove that they don't need to be a part of it. Another thing, if they could lurk they would be more inclined to start more annoying threads in gen-gen.

later,
-junc

[Trapezoid]

Would we allow cross-posting in both forums? I mean, what if I have an idea for a thread that I'd like both Newbies and Oldies to see? If I post it in the Oldies forum, Newbies might not bother looking there because they can't post. And if I post it in the original General Forum, there are Oldies who avoid the place because it contain Newbies. Crikey.

[MillsJROSS]

Get this idea! There will not be a newbie forum and an oldie forum. It's going to be an oldie forum and a general mass forum. The oldies won't just ignore this forum once they have their own forum. And if they want to share something with the AGS community as a whole then they'd put it on the general mass forum. If they just want the oldies to know about it, then the oldies forum. It isn't that complicated.

I can see both sides for keeping it secret and allowing people to read it. So I won't argue either way.

-MillsJROSS

[Evil]

If we are yelling at eachother then why do we even bother? You all know this will lead to many, many threads about "Not being cool enough"...