Messages

Helm,

I'm really not talking about myself (and my musical tastes are as refined as anyone I have met including pro musicians). My point really is about the views of game journalists.

The use of lame generic techno music at all I think shows that commercial video games have pretty low standards for music. Most games employ one guy for music, but at least 10 guys for art. Really, I thought I was saying something pretty obvious when I said the gaming press won't even review your game if it has bad graphics.

A lot of people on here thought I said that the music in games is all bad, or that all electronic music is bad, or that all electronic music is easy to make and I said none of those things. What I meant was that getting music that is considered "good enough" for a commercial game is easy compared to making art that is "good enough" for a commercial game.

My point was that people saying "I wouldn't buy an AGS game" probably don't even know what AGS can do. Without too much trouble I got some cool frame blended motion blur to work in my game, and paralax scrolling without any plug-ins. I'm no programmer and that is just the tip of the iceburg. The only thing AGS doesn't do at this point is 3D, so people saying they wouldn't buy an AGS game is the same as saying they wouldn't buy a 2D game. And I just can't take seriously the opinion that 2D games are inferior. Have fun playing Street Fighter EX! Ha!

The reason people have this unfair stereotype of AGS is that so many games are created by amateurs in 320x200 rez graphics. That is fine, and some of those games are really great, but AGS can do so much more. I think a lot of people on here don't realize that there are pros out there working with in-house tools with only the most basic functionality (pray you have an undo function). AGS is a dream compared to that. As a development tool AGS is amazing, which lets people focus on the code and art and music, and that lets people make better games.

When I say "techno type music", I am refering to the type of lame music they put in video games. I have been to enough raves to tell the difference between some lame House music and pumping Goa Trance.

I say writing Techno type music to the level required of a commercial video game is easy because this is what you need to do.

1) Come up with a beat
2) Make a couple of layers for a build-up
3) Fool with it until it sounds right

It does take time, but if you have an ear for it (developed by listening to A LOT of the music you are trying to create) and the patience, it is not hard. Try using 3DS Max at random until you get something that will fit the definition of passable game art and I think you'll start to understand my point.

The tools for writing music nowdays are really amazing (Reason springs to mind, but the lame Adobe Audition which I own is still okay), and there is nothing that comes close to the ease of use music programs have in the 3D art world. But you come back to the fact that music is abstract and 3D is trying to match photo realism, and so 3D must be more complicated.

I have a challenge for you.Ã,  Pick an American video game, and a certain section of it, and write a "Techno-type" piece of music to fit that scene.Ã,  Since you think anybody can write it, I'd assume 24 hours is plenty of time.Ã,  Let's see how many people think it fits well.

I'm actually pretty busy right now with real work, but when it comes time to do the music for my game I'll be more than happy to hear everyone's feedback on the music I create for it.

I have no idea what you are talking about ProgZmax. Wing Commander had cutting edge graphics when it came out. Doom had game journalists gushing about how immersive the 3D environments were. I bought the first Gamepro, and recieved the first Nintendo Funclub News. I remember the prevailing views on these games at the time, and I simply think you are wrong.

Helm:
So what type of techno music do you usually see in games? The interesting type or the amateurish?

I wouldn't love video games so much if they all had awful stories and music. Is it really a challenge to write a better story than the one in MGS 2? Most American video games have techno type music, which I have to say, just about anyone can write.

I don't know what to say if you disagree and think techno music is hard to write, or that MGS 2 had a great story. You could think human feces taste great and love the sound of a fork on a chalkboard also. Personal preferences are beyond logic.

One of my favorite games is Ico; a game that has no english dialog. Shadow of the Collossus (by the same team) has much more story and is the worse for it. Why? Because the story makes no sense at all. I could have written half a dozen better endings than the one they had.

While there are a great number of successful games that have had bad music and terrible story, there are none that I can think of that have had awful graphics.

Ninjas, you talk about being a professional artist and how most people wouldn't and shouldn't dream to sell what they draw. How about the writing in your game? Is it up to professional standards? The sound? Music? It's one thing for a game to appear commercial-level because the first thing you see are graphics, and another thing entirely for the game to actually be up to par in all respects.

     This is a good point, but programming and art are obviously harder to get to a commercial level in games than music or writing. Not just because game art and programming are highly technical, but also because the music and writing in most commercial games simply isn't that good. The gold standard for whether a game counts as "commercial quality" from what I have seen in the gaming press is graphics.
     I personally don't care about the graphics so much, as long as they are fuctional and have some character.


Erwin:
     I think it depends on your pay, work hours and client. Certainly I enjoy some of my work, but work is work. I like work as an artist better than any other work I have done. At the end of the day though, if I don't get my work done I don't eat. That level of motivation is totally different than someone doing games as a hobby. It takes some of the fun out of it.
     

First let me say that some of the AGS games I have played have been really great. The community seems really nice, and I think it is great that these smaller, quirkier games are being made.

I am a professional artist, and instead of working as a bootlicker on someone else's project I decided to take some time off and do my own game. I entertained a number of different game engines, but AGS seemed like the best choice for my first game. The reason I joined the AGS community was only because I was interested in doing a commercial game. Like many pro artists I don't see art really as "fun" anymore. Art is just something I must do, because of who I am.

I see that a lot of people on these AGS forums are hobbiests who are doing games for fun. That is great, and some of those games are really enjoyable. Most of these games are also not even close to the current professional level of quality. Me making games for a living is not really at all the same as someone making one for fun, the same as anybody can pick up a pen and doodle a picture, but you would be a fool to think anybody can sell what they draw.

The adventure genre is on life support, yet some of the best selling games of all time were adventure games. Why aren't there good commercial adventure games now? I'll tell you why. It is because the big companies like EA think the money to be made in the genre is too small to care about. And all us folks who love adventure games? Thanks to the efforts of people like CJ we can make them ourselves.

AGS as a tool is more than able to do commercial quality games in its current state. 3D games are great, but 2d games are made all the time and they do just fine. Street fighter 3, or Guilty Gear come to mind. It is technically very simple to make decent looking games using AGS. AGS is an amazingly refined production environment, and learning it was a snap compared to some of the other tools I use like 3DS Max or even Photoshop.

One of the things I noticed about the AGS community is that so many people here seem to be stuck in the past. New commercial adventure games can be made, but they don't need low rez graphics or be able to run on a 386 Dos machine.

That is what is great about AGS. It is for everyone who loves the genre. For the genre to grow and find a new younger audience, it will take professional artists that can make a living off selling the games they make. For all the fans who like their games in the classic style, there will always be the more casually produced titles for free.

Really awesome. Well done. I think I like the black night with the darker segment lines, although black may have been too dark. The shinier armor does look better!

Hey. That is awesome! I really admire your pixel art and can't wait to see what you do with the concept.

I think the black knight looks great. I think you really nailed the concept.

The gameplay is going to be a complete evolution of the adventure game formula. I expect that adventure game fans will feel like they are playing an adventure game, but the actualy gameplay and presentation will be very different.

I don't really know how to explain it. I want my character dialog to play out more like a cut scene, in the style of Ninja Gaiden on the NES. It seems like 3D isn't the right direction for adventure games to me. You get something like an interactive movie when you switch to 3D, which is fine but seems  too different to me. I want my game sprites to be in the style of Street Fighter 3 or Guilty Gear.

The main reason to do spanish lanuguage voices with the spanish translated version is so that english speakers won't simply buy the cheaper spanish language version. Really, I wanted a chance to sell games in a market that doesn't have a lot of games made for it, at a price latin americans can afford.

The spanish language version will be as standard as I can make it. I live with three university educated Mexicans, and I was going to enlist thier help. Obviously though, you guys understand english just fine, so if you really want that version you can still get it.

I'm living like a monk while a make the game, and the goal on this is to make enough money so that I can keep living at this (far below the poverty line) level while I make a more imerssive 3D game.

Ikari, I think I'll end up doing a full spanish language translation (w/ voices) and I will make an effort to sell it. I have my degree in economics and I am aware of the huge differences caused by currency valuation. I hope to sell the spanish language version at a fair price for the majority of people likely to buy it.

As for his arms, I would say it is just perspective, but you could be right, especially on the character's left arm.

Thanks everybody. I'm trying my best to recover so that I can get back to work on this.

I have been really sick with the flu... I have only made a little progress. I'll also be out of town for Christmas and New Years. Until then Here is a little something.

I just posted that up as an extreme example of what adjusting the contrast could do for the image.

This is with adjusted brightness and contrast.

You need to boost the brightness/contrast. Other than that looks pretty good. I like how the shadows are.

Really, this seems a lot like the kind of wierd stuff on your webpage. Maybe you are the originator of this email, or had someone target you because they thought you would like it.



The message breaks into two parts:

part one is culled from this...

http://www.csun.edu/cod/conf/1998/proceedings/csun98_039.htm

I suspect there are many different sources.

Playing around with player portraits. I like the look of this, though I may slim the black lines down for the final game.



I think the game may indeed be called How to be a Ninja, but I wanted to leave it open in case I came up with an even better title later.

I really don't like game demos for that reason. I don't know. I like the idea of integrating the booklet (which would be designed to look like the 'How to be a Ninja' book in the game) with the gameplay.

Yeah, I can see problems with the booklet, but it is ultimately harder to photocopy the book than it is to download a key-gen. The other thing I think is intersting is that reproducing the book, or even quoting large portions of it, is against the law, while making a key-gen is completely legal. I think adventure game fans would enjoy the oldschool charm of looking stuff up in the book also.

The main problem I see is that some people may find it confusing. They may mistakingly think the game is free, and then feel ripped off because they have to buy a booklet, or they may want the whole game and think the download version is only a demo. Maybe if I use standard phrases it can be made to make more sense. "Order the manual and get codes to unlock the full game"

I'm really not worried about guys giving the game to their friends. I'm more worried about my game showing up in disks with other ripped games being sold on Ebay. Having to print out a mutli-page booklet would slow those guys down a lot more than just needing a code.

Utimately any copy protection system is going to fail, or else be a royal pain for the legit users, or both. I want to make it easy for people who buy the game to play it. One huge problem with commercial games is that they often are buggy, or won't work with people's computers. My game will run, even on an ultra low end PC, at 320x240, 15 FPS. I'm sick of playing games and having it not work because I don't have 3.0 pixel shaders or an $800 Gforce 9.

I may shop the game around once it is closer to being done, but I plan to retain the right to sell it online.