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^Hey, buying different models costs money, so they may as well use the same model for all "white men" ^_^

Well, that's what happened (more or less) with regards to paintings of Christ.

I get why a poor village church 200 years before the internet would copy paintings, but I don't get why a modern multi-million dollar company
wouldn't be willing to shell out a few extra bucks to make the dude they're gonna put on their marketing look different from the dude that rival
multi-million dollar companies are gonna put on all their marketing.

[NO ONE]

Though I can accept this thread is about problematic presentation of females, so perhaps there's nothing of use I can contribute, given I don't feel strongly about the subject and am pessimistic about the results of any rules forced to bring about meaningful change.

If you don't feel strongly about the subject, why do you keep posting here then? Also, NO ONE is forcing a bunch of universal rules on writers, all people have done here is discussing media trends and tried to raise awareness,
the idea that the Bechdel test and similar things is forced upon writers is a big straw-man argument, and this har already been pointed out several times in this very thread. How have you been able to miss this?

I didn't know of that game (Heavy Rain), and looking at youtube thumbnails I am not inclined to learn more... I am biased against this style of graphics

As for "incurious white men", I am not seeing how formatting this to include "white men" as if it is a block, helps with anything - incurious or not. In the US it seems to be a distinction ("white men" or xyz "white men") that exists specifically because of the very numerous black and also "hispanic" (which imo are mostly white too, fwiw) minorities, but it makes little to no sense in most of Europe (only a couple of european countries actually have significant number-wise "non-white" minorities).
Of course, to note the obvious, no two people are the same. Let alone whatever groups "white men" is supposed to gather and pack together. As someone who lived in London in his late teens-early 20s (due to university studies), I can tell you that there isn't that much in common between the average english person and a south european, regardless of terming any group as "white".

I phrased it as "a white man brooding about how depressed he is" because David Cage keeps including scenes of white men brooding, something he's never done in any larger capacity for his female and non-white male characters. I commented on a pattern in David Cage games on which kind of characters he keeps putting in which kind of situations, and I also noted that he keeps putting white women in damsel positions and none-white men and women in the role of inspirational helpers, and I'm not sure why it's the generalisation of white men brooding that you took umbrage with.

Also, while you're right that in real life, there will be lots of ethnic and cultural differences between "white men", within media depictions,
and video games especially, there very much are a specific type of white men that keeps being portrayed over and over again:

(and more than one of these characters is from a David Cage game)

By contrast, Heavy Rain's Madison Paige (from a game 20 years later) is an absurdly underwritten character. But Heavy Rain was critically acclaimed - it won 3 BAFTAS here in the UK - and I think it matters when big 'serious' games fail so badly to represent anyone other than deeply incurious (white) men. (I don't want to bang on about how bad Heavy Rain is. But on the other hand, I do, because it's extraordinarily bad.)

I remember thinking Heavy Rain was deep the first time it came out, in part because I was young and stupid and still an edgy teen, but also because I'd been "taught" by media and reviewers that overtly showing a bunch of emotional things on the screen in a "realistic" fashion automatically makes it deep, and I think David Cage, the writer of Heavy rain, very much plays on this. I already wrote in my previous comment here on how I thought Madison was a badly written character drawing on sexist tropes, but I've come to feel David Cage is a huge hack in general, using cliched emotional imagery to trick people into thinking that provoking emotions is the same as being deep, and relying on the fact that video games have yet to utilize the cliches he's using to the same extent as bad movie dramas and soap operas to make gamers think he's novel and daring.

David Cages modus operandi is basically to show scenes containing any of the following;

- a 6 to 9-year-old child in mortal peril
- an attractive white woman threatened with sexual assault
- people of color being mysterious and inspirational, possibly magical
- showing that drugs are baaaad
- a white man brooding about how depressed he is
- mentions of world politics. No real commentary, just copying imagery from news
- random dream sequences
- homeless people hanging out in the cold
- show how "human" and "vulnerable" his characters are via a bunch of shower scenes

And he then relies on the audience associating those subjects with similar scenes from oscar-winning dramas and think that because both his games and oscar dramas both have such scenes, his games must be just as deep as oscar dramas.

I'm sure you don't mean it like this, but I'm not sure why you're listing good female characters and (supposedly) bad male characters as if they offer a counterpoint? It's good that there are well written women, but for as long as there's a demonstrable imbalance in the ways men and women are portrayed in the media, it's worth talking about the kind of tools we can use as writers and critics to tackle biases.

Yeah, KyriakosCH, I'm not trying to dissuade you from this discussion, but I would hope that in your future replies here, rather than just throwing out examples on a conveyor belt, if you want to bring up a female character you like in this discussion, try adding some thoughts on why you think they are a well-written character or a positive example in your reply. This isn't a competition where whoever namedrops the most positive examples win.

That said, I don't know if Gabriel Knight is a stereotype - a stereotype of what? He may be the archetypal vain heart-throb and I'm sure he's popular with some female players, but he's not written in a way that insults the intelligence of male players.

I haven't played the game, so I couldn't say, but I haven't seen any other men complain about Gabriel before.

As for male creators making idealized female characters, there are plenty of attractive characters like April Ryan, Lara Croft and Lightning from Final Fantasy that have a large female fanbase and are well liked, because they still are interesting characters in their own right,
and even female NPCs like Farah from Prince of Persia, Elena from Uncharted, and Governor Marley from Monkey Island are praised by lots of female gamers because they have memorable personalities and offer a lot more to the story than just being love interests,
wheras the female characters that have drawn the most criticism usually have been character that are nothing and do nothing except look hot and/or fawn over the male hero, and they are objectified in a way I've never seen a male character be outside blatant parody.

What's going on in that picture? 

If I had to take a guess, there's a white wall with a smaller red wall protruding out of it at an angle, somewhere in real life. So someone took a photo and drew an outline around that red wall to make it look like when you're placing an object in an invalid position on a game.
But it looks photoshopped, so maybe not. 

Maybe, though I still struggle to make sense of the joke.

Grace (Nakamura, iirc) was a cool female character in the game Gabriel Knight. I have only played 1 and 3. Gabriel, on the other hand, was really ridiculous and a stereotype - but a female friend of mine was in love with him, and he was written by a woman in the first place 

Haven't played the game, but I've read a blog post by Jane Jensen on her thoughts on writing Gabriel and her other characters, and specifically writing men she would want to fall in love with.

Do you mean the film-grain like flickering effect on the screen?

I mean what happens when you take the pills: the reddish overlay with shaking and blurring.

Last time I tried I felt so sick that had to stop playing. 

That's a shame.
I wish more games had people with sensitive eyes test the game before release, not to mention considering what would happen if say, someone epileptic played it.

I saw the video, and I must ask

It's a very real possibility

Exciting! 

Digging up some old bones here, but I have a patch coming to address a few bugs, a few typos, fix a couple of logic issues (why *can't* I use that with that?!). The biggest change, however, is due to the amount of feedback I got about the ending being way too abrupt. Originally, my thinking was the game itself ended at the credits and all the stuff that followed was a playable ending, which, of course, just felt like more game. So, I've added a little extra segment to make the cliffhanger cliffhangier. If you played through the game and just want to see the new ending, it's here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIRddoje9nQ&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=GnarledScarManipulations

For anyone who hasn't played yet and plans to, I should have the new patch up at itch.io, gamejolt, indiedb, and Steam within the next week or so.

I saw the video, and I must ask:

Spoiler

Is that a sequel hook he's hanging on at the end of it? 

[close]

Just a little correction if I may, but Fran Bow was not made with AGS, they had their homebrew engine afaik.
(I still was not able to play it because it has a fullscreen effect during the mental hospital scenes that gives me nausea, and no way to turn it off. Maybe I will try again later)

Do you mean the film-grain like flickering effect on the screen?

[played]

Some AGS-made games had memorable female protagonists.
Two I have played are Fran Bow and The Cat Lady 

Fran Bow was one of the few games I've played that dealt with dark things such as child abuse and mental disorders, and pulled it off rather well, though I think the game took a lot of visual and thematic inspiration from Alice: Madness Returns.

As for that game, the creator did give a pretty good explanation as to how he was able to write a story for a female teenage character dealing with trauma and mental illness without it coming across as edgy or gratuitous.

[exactly the same scene]

Holy sh*t, I was thinking of exactly the same scene in relation to this thread about two hours ago! 

Well, it is a pretty great scene. 

Good job on finding Cassie to help - it's not like there has been any bad blood there

Anyway, Blondbraid, sorry that you felt insulted by what I wrote. I also felt surprised and insulted by what you wrote. I hope we can now move on

I'm not in control of Cassie, she speaks for herself.

I apologize if the way I wrote my initial reply was too impolite (but I still stand by the points I've made), and I hope you've at least tried to learn something from what I've said.

I'm not going to bring this up again if you don't, so I hope we're done now.

What's going on in that picture? 

Some people is useless to argue with, they just focus on their views and are unable to see it from someone elses view point. I feel like you are wasting your energy Blondbraid, but I admire your persistence in trying to explain.

I'm glad to see at least someone else read my replies.

I guess it's just been one of these days where you desperately wish the point of view gun was real. 

Look, if you are looking for an apology, reflect on yourself starting this with your rather strange response.
Either way, as I said, I won't bother more with this.

And what's so strange about it?

I've already done all I can to explain myself, my reaction, and why I posted my initial complaint.
I find it stranger that you keep replying to me, yet you also keep ignoring virtually all the things I say.

Spoiler

Well, seeing that context, I personally think

Spoiler

the version where the princess stays dressed sounds more thematically interesting. As for the swimsuit twist, you're right that the dynamics change with the princess dressed, though you could probably still make a comment on how the princess is honest about covering up, while the journalist pretends to be bare and transparent but hides it. Like, after successfully making the princess feel embarrassed for wanting to stay covered, she rises up to show she too is covered while just berating the princess for it.

[close]

[close]

Thanks, also starting to lean towards that option. It's "safer", makes sense and can work just as well.

It will be interesting to see it play out in the full game, best of luck with it!

As for the bubble bath in the screenshot, did you watch this Robin Hood: Men in tights scene for inspiration?

I didn't! I've never seen that. And I felt so clever for coming up with that .

I guess that's convergent evolution in action!

[did]

I'm sorry, but I have to say I also read your first reaction to Kyriakos as aggressive and condescending.

If I came across as angry, it was because I've already seen a ton of nudes posted in feminist discussions as "jokes" by sexist dudes in other forums.
I've tried my best to explain my initial reaction, and maybe I was too brash in the way I said it, but I still think KyriakosCH's answers were far ruder.

I just don't know what you expect. I repeatedly stated I had no intention to post something against you; the thread has more people than just you anyway. I also noted that I don't have anything against you

I didn't think the first image of the painting was meant for me specifically, but I did see it as a bad joke trying to derail and be contrarian in the context of this discussion.

What I did take personally, however, was you basically calling me a pervert and then comparing me to a Saudi fundamentalist in your replies,
and if you want to prove to me that you don't have anything against me I want you to acknowledge this and apologize for it if you expect me to forgive your comments.

I just don't know what you expect. I repeatedly stated I had no intention to post something against you; the thread has more people than just you anyway. I also noted that I don't have anything against you
Maybe I felt frightened and had to bring the claws out - in such a case, please respect my safe space  (and, in reality, I was just surprised you'd be in attack mode without any reason, but obviously everyone has their own views, including me and you - let's be/stay friends in the forum, and if not, let's move on  )

I feel like I've already said this a bunch of times before, but it is common knowledge emojis are used to show somebody is joking in online comments, and if you want to make a sincere attempt to send out an olive branch,
you really shouldn't joke about it or present a smirk while doing so. Also, don't pretend I'm arguing for no reason and stop treating everything I say as an attack on you, and then I'd be willing to move on.

I am reposting this because Honza can be used as an attack target instead of myself from now on

I really hope you're not going to try and go "don't pick me, pick him instead" on Honza here.

In case you've missed it, I don't go around attacking random people for no reason, no matter how much you try to paint me in that light.

If that was the case, why didn't you explain that from the start?

In doesn't work that way; you don't "explain" when you are jumped at; it's not like I magically owe other posters here better treatment than they give

That said, time to move on 

You keep using words like "attack" and "jumped at" as if I was physically lunging at you and you only had a split-second to defend yourself from injury,
but in reality, the text is still there for everyone to go back to look at, I wrote a comment criticizing what I saw as an inappropriate comment  that came across as a bad joke,
no one forced you to reply, and more importantly, it's not like there is an immense and pressing time limit to reply and think through your answer before posting,
but instead, you've basically done little more than hopping between insulting me by painting me as a strawman prude and complain that I'm not nice enough
when I tell you why your replies come across as insulting and patronizing, and it only feels like you're saying you want to move on because you've seen someone else
agreeing with my points and you are afraid other people will call you out on your behavior.

Yeah, I think the issue is not that there's anything wrong with that painting in its own terms - you don't need to defend Munch. Even if you'd found the perfect example of a naked woman portrayed without the tiniest hint of sexism - it still wouldn't have made sense to present it as a 'gotcha' or counterpoint, if that's how you intended it.

Exactly.
I've studied art history at University, something I wouldn't if I couldn't stomach any form of female nudity. On the contrary, one of my favourite paintings is Liberty leading the people by Delacroix,
and I think it's one of the rare examples of a male artist pulling off heroic nudity in a female character without it coming across as crass or vulgar.

But even so, even if you had selected another painting of a nude woman which I did like, it still comes off as either trying to be provocative or come with a cheap "gotcha" moment, as if a few examples of female nudity accepted as high art by the masses
would magically offset all the droves of objectifying and sexist images of underdressed women that were complained about here.