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No, but Captain Mostly did.

My mistake, yes he did.

I think it's pointless to compare the "substance" of a computer platform game with that of two books. Of course the game is not going to be as substantial!

Let me put it this way: I don't think the game would have been any more substantial if it had stuck more closely to Lewis Carroll's vision.

I disagree. For example, I think LucasArts' Fate of Atlantis has as much substance as the Indy movies. And what about Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? Blade Runner too? Thus, I think it's fair to say you can make a computer game with as much substance as other media formats.

If that description is broadly correct, I would say it's a remarkably thorough exploration of a multi-faceted idea, not a "one-joke" concept.

But I think if that's the case, the game is trying too hard at being "deep". A game like Hitman or Deus Ex does this sort of multi-faceted exploration so much better (especially Hitman from a psychological standpoint).

That's you prerogative. I haven't played it enough to really tell, I'm mostly just going from reviews I've read. However, most of the discussion up until now has been about whether the concept of a "dark Alice" is worth doing or not, I haven't seen any arguments for why you think this game doesn't do it very well.

I'm not disputing dark Alice at all. I just don't think it was done very well and explained why.

In the bits I played, I didn't really notice any parody elements. (Having jokes does not make it a parody.)

Migs previously said it was a parody. I was responding to him. However, while it's true that it's not jokes that makes parody, it's the ridicule of certain elements that does make a parody. And McGee's Alice does ridicule, and as I've said I don't think it does it very well.

Even if you disagree with this, I think it's inaccurate to say that McGee didn't "get it" for making the Alice game so dark. He didn't make it dark because he thought the original stories were dark. He made it dark because they were not. If you are trying to shock or disturb, violating something innocent is a simple but effective trick. (For another examle, just take Larry Flynt's pornographic cartoon featuring Dorothy from Wizard of Oz. Instant controversy!) Horror writers, of course, do this kind of thing all the time. In my opinion, it's a valid (though increasingly tired) device, and should be judged on the quality of the execution.

I'm not saying that McGee didn't get it. I'm saying that it's a game of little substance compared to the original text. It's like taking A Streetcar Named Desire and remaking it as an action film. Sure, it's possible to make such a film and still "get it" through reinterpretation, but I doubt the concept would stand anywhere close to the original text due to lack of substance.

I also think you can't really compare Alice to your example of Flynt's Dorothy cartoon. Firstly, Flynt's cartoon was a single-shot comic, where a one-note joke (such as the corruption of innocence) is possible. For a whole game, you need more than something one-note.

And secondly, Flynt's cartoon was only controversial because it was released during a time of conflicting sexual attitudes. McGee's Alice isn't all that controversial. It's very tame compared to something like GTA 3 (which I classify a very controversial,  partially due to it's modern-day violence and partially due to it's satirical look at urban society).

Sure, I'm all for art that corrupts innocence to make a point. But for McGee's Alice, I don't think it does it very well. As you say it "should be judged on the quality of the execution". And I don't think its artistic value was executed well.

Not only that, it's hard to mix genres like that. Is it a parody? Is it horror? Is it an actioner? You see, it's hard to take seriously because it seems to cross between genres very rapidly, never knowing what it really is. A game like Grim Fandango can cross between noir and comical genres well because it does it in a more subtle way. That's why I think McGee's Alice doesn't work well as a "scary" game or a "parody" game.

But like I said, this doesn't detract from the gameplay. As said, it's got a good level design and it does keep you interested. But it's not a game of substance when compared to the original text.

[possiblity]

There's been a lot of blame put the security agencies over the last few years. Before our last election, our government had an immigration "crisis" with a boat full of refugees that were throwing children overboard.

It turns out there were no children overboard, and there was mass confusion as to what the government did know and didn't know regarding intelligence reports on the matter.

Here's a website that's documented a lot of it: http://www.truthoverboard.com/

As for my personal opinion, I just hope the US history books get their story right on the whole Bush/Iraq issue.

And I'd take an extra step in saying that not only can you blame the corruption of government officials for the fall of democracy, but also the corrupters (namely, elite powers and corperations).



EDIT:

Bush's response made me laugh: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1150855.htm

I love the title of the article: "Bush pledges intelligence reform". It's kind of ironic when you think about it.

But the part I liked was:
He told a crowd of several hundred cheering supporters why he ordered the US-led assault on Iraq in March 2003, saying the world knew ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had been trying to acquire nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

"We haven't found the stockpiles, but we knew he could make them," Mr Bush said.

It's kind like this (read Petula's response): http://www.seanbaby.com/hostess/wonwom6.htm

I can relate to what Bush says. You see, at home, I have a set of kitchen knives I use to cut meat. However, those knives could be used to kill people if I ever go on a psychopathic rampage. Sure, there are no bodies buried in my backyard, BUT I COULD STILL GO ON A KILLING SPREE! So, the cops had better arrest me ASAP. If Matlock taught us anything, it's that a hunch is just as good as evidence when it comes to arresting young punks like me.

I mean, there are far more threatening countries that could make nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Why not invade them based on the possiblity of making WMDs? Since Australia has a shitload of Uranium mines, I guess we'll be the first to go. See you, everyone! Next you'll hear of me, I'll be getting felt up by Lynndie England!

I wonder if Chis will make an appearance in this thread too.

If you don't think a reinterpretation is good, just reject it, but I think most attempts at reinterpreting classics are worthwhile endeavors.Ã,  I'm not sure I would really consider American McGee's Alice a reinterpretation, though.Ã,  It's more of a dark parody.Ã,  It's a unique story, and bears little semblance to the original except in theme.

For a start, a parody is a reinterpretation. It's reinterpretating literary work for ridicule and mockery.

And secondly, while I agree the game is a parody, I don't think it's the best kind of parody. I say this because the ridicule is really one note: portray the world as a gothic nightmare. It doesn't really deconstruct the original material. And after you get over the original joke, the game just becomes an actioner.

I think a game like Duke Nukem 3D is a better action parody, because it is spoofing several things at once (films, games, etc). It's clever, while still being a playable game.

Not that that detracts from the playablity of Alice. I just feel that it falls into that "Twelve Angry Men" category I mentioned before. It's just doesn't transcend above the original in any way.

I'm divided about this issue.

Sometimes reinterpretations of certain media types enhance the overall story by adding a new perspective. For example, look at Kubrick's reinterpretation of the ending of A Clockwork Orange in comaparison to Anthony's Burgess' novel.

Hoever, sometimes a reinterpretation can contain little substance when compared to the original. I remember reading an article by Dan Knauf about his meeting with a producer who wanted to turn Twelve Angry Men into an action film starring Bruce Willis (I shit you not).

I tend to think American McGee's Alice belongs in the later category. Sure, it's fun. But will it be remembered as much as the novel? I doubt it.

There is no exact date (GMT??). It tends to cover a certain period. For two weeks, people nominate theri favourite games. The top five for each category are chosen. Then for the next two weeks, everyone votes for the winner.

And other questions, check the URL in my sig.

* reply pending *

I've got a great idea for a competition, AND it's AGS-related. It's called "Make Stickmen 2". What you've got to do is make your own Stickmen 2 game. The winner's game will become the REAL Stickmen 2 and all copyrights will be owned by me. ISN'T THAT FUN??

Perhaps you could focus your abilities into making a business simulation with AGS.

Or, if you're really keen on this idea, maybe you could post it in a business management forum instead of the AGS forums.

Further more, didn't DG tell us to shut up about religion anyways?

No, I didn't. Just to clear this up, I said "chill out" which I think is what you need to do, LGM, even more so than Yufster.

Talk religion: yes, fine, perfect, great.

Whap each other over the head with "The Bible" or "The Dummies Guide to Atheism" and get a little over-excitied because someone metioned that naughty word 'religion': no, shut up, get lost.

Sure, Yufster needs therapy. Hell, I've known that for a long time and I didn't need her to change her nickname for me to know that. Just read a few of her stark-raving bonkers posts. But LGM, if you take what Yuftser says seriously, then you might as well take seriously what that homeless guy on the street corner with his pants around his ankles says. But believe me, he doesn't have delicious candy in his underpants.

Likewise, if you take what Yufster says seriously and go off on your own rant, you're just acting worse than she is, because you're the one taking it too seriously.

Also, calling people "assholes" isn't promoting the good Christian value of tolerance very well. So, settle down. No one is forcing you to believe anything.

As for Yufster: You were way out of line with that first post, even if it was in jest. There's such a thing as taking it too far. And I'm very disappointed in you.

Now, that I've cleared that, let's put today's stupid debate behind us.

Oh yeah, see ya Minimi and good luck.

Can anyone think of a tagline for Filth City?

Errr... "It's time to clean up this town"?

Or you can not make a game and just bribe me.

Don't. See it in the theatre. It's the best way to watch a movie where you swing from building to building.

Agreed.

I have other characters in my pants. They follow me around too.

12-999999999: You will be arrested for cousing a fatal, hard disk breaking crash on every computer that plays it.

Freedom Fighters had 12 characters and didn't "couse" any hard disks to get fatal breaking crashes. You lied!

Hehe, but i think your getting this wrong, freedom fighters i a shooter game, not an adventure game.You never played it?

Who cares? Make an adventure game with 13 CHARACTERS following you to show Freedom Fighters who's boss anyway! You'll be, like, AGS Champion El Supremo!

Well then if we expand the list there is a game called Freedom Fighters where you can have 12 following you!

In that case, make a game with 13 CHARACTERS following you!! That'll show Freedom Fighters who's boss!!

There have been lots of RPGs with characters that follow you around, like some of the Ultima games.