Messages

I'm really shocked at your morals, people. What happened to family values?

SuperScottishHero = Bill Cosby

Holy shit.

This is a million times better than that first shitty webpage I created for MAGS.

I'm so pleased that people have supported this and developed it from my small seedlings!

It kinda brings a little tear to my eye!

Thank you!

Here's a simple idea.

You have to deliver and object from A to B.

So, for example, you have been given a roll of Micro-film that shows a murder.

You have to get that film to the police.

However, there are several obstacles in the way.

Let say, for example, that the main character is from a small country town and the police station is miles away.

And your pick-up truck is out of fuel.

Plus, the murderer knows you've got the film and wants to murder you for it.

There are hundreds of things to stop the goal of delivering "the object" from A to B.

Other plots in a similar vien:
- A space pilot needs to deliver something to a certain planet, but a huge civil space war prevents the pilot
- A hospital needs medical supplies are you're the only one who can deliver them through "DEATH CANYON".
- Your a mercenary who must deliver a nuclear weapon across the world, but you've got the Feds on your tail.

I don't share the same view.

I know quite a number of women that have fallen in love with heroes from different books.

It's more than just watching the drama unfold.

It's placing yourself in a position, partially as a means of escape.

Of course there are other things involved, such as meaning and message, social relevance, psychoanalytic meaning, etc.

But these things are just as important as using a novel as a means to escape and join in on the adventure.

That's the power of imagination.



But I'm a romantic and lover at heart, so my view is very different from yours.

I can understand what you say about detaching yourself from a piece of literature -- and in a lot of ways, you are right.

But sometimes I just need to feel something, and I'd rather attach myself to a great story or character, that to remain emotionally distant -- I've learnt that lesson so well.

I'd rather let my heart fill with all things: novels, films, nature, my family, and of course, my girlfriend.

All of these are my loves, whether it be finding a connection to a character from a book/film/game, to feeling sunlight upon my body, to spending Christmas with the folks, or to fall asleep on the couch with my Rene -- I'm so in love with it all.

Simple pleasures.

And not being afraid to feel something.

That's what makes me human.

Edit: It's a difficult view to explain -- you are probably wondering what the hell I'm babbling about.

Outbreak had Dustin Hoffman, Kevin Spacey, Morgan Freeman, and Donald Sutherland.

And it was directed by Das Boot's Wolfgang Peterson.

How can a movie with that much talent be so average?

Only in Hollywood!

Rabbit:
What about people who read romance novels?

Romance novels, like games with romance in them, are merely an escape -- something we all need every now and then.

Love in computer games is merely an escape, just the same as pretending to be a hitman (In Hitman) or pretending to lead an army (in Command & Conquer).

Why shouldn't people fall in love with characters in games?

They become part of what inspires us.

The distinction I think you are trying to make is where it reaches the point of obsession, or as Terran said lusting after a character -- which is more so using, say, Lara Croft as wank-material.

That leaves people as socially maladjusted geeks.

But what we are talking about here is understanding another entity, even if ficitional.

Romance never left anyone maladjusted.

Obession does.

But never romance.


SSH:
That's a good point -- I forgot about WC3.

That had a very well-done romance angle -- especially the decision making process and cosequences.

And if you choose neither, you end the game with no woman by your side, a hero alone, floating toward home.

Yeah, Sakura is a poor foo' when it comes to XP.

I recently bought a new computer with XP and was cringing in angst at the incompatibility with Sakura.

Luckily, I've still got my old P133 with Win98!

As for friend relationship, try examining the examples in my post above.

They might give you some clue as to how to implement the friend relationship.

As with everything, I'm never right, because I believe everyone needs to adapt what they learn into their own methods -- learn from the top shelf games, like the title above.

Find out what makes great relationships, in your eyes.

And I'm always willing to help you, if you need a particular viewpoint on story elements.

For romance between main character and NPC, I suggest you look at Seasons of Sakura -- the romance/relationship varies depending upon the choices you make and it should give you some ideas.

I also think the key to developing relationship in fiction (or real life) is about learning different aspects of other individuals -- In SoS you learn a lot about the different classmates, and thus the relationship between you and them becomes deeper (which is one of the main goals of the game because your main character starts out as an isolated person).

Not only that, but a relationship (particularly a romantic one) increases your own knowledge about who you are -- And the main character in SoS develops an understanding of himself through the choices you make.

There are even times when the main character of SoS stops and suddenly realises something about himself, just by talking to another human being.

I think relationships (particularly romantic ones) are about learning, both through others and through yourself.

Continuing on from this, if you're looking for just friendship between characters, examine Grim Fandango, especially the way Manny and Glottis hook up and share the adventure -- This should also give you some ideas.

In fact there are a lot of "best friend" relationships in games, and I suggest the following:

Manny and Glottis in Grim Fandango
Shuji and Makoto from Seasons of Sakura
Gabriel Knight and Mosley from Gabirel Knight
Bernard and Green Tentacle in Day of The Tentacle
Laverne and Dead Cousin Ted in Day of The Tentacle
Sam and Max (obviously) in Sam and Max Hit The Road

There's also a similar "friend" to the main character, which I call the "Guru", who acts as a guide or father/mother figure to the main character:

Sal for Manny in GF
Kyoko-sensei for Shuji in SoS
Wolfgang for Gabriel Knight in GK: Sins of the Fathers
Doctor Fred for Bernard, Hoagie, and Laverne in DOTT

I don't know if Sam and Max have a "guru" character, so I'll replace it with another famous example:

The Voodoo Lady for Guybrush in all Monkey Island games

Most important: the characters I've stated above (romance characters, best friends, and "gurus") are merely archetypes (in other words, I've only defined relationships) -- it's up to you to turn them in to believable characters.

To do that, make up history for each charcter -- their history motivates them and influences the decisions that you make.

For example, what if you found out one character killed your father in the past -- How would you, as the player, react to this situation?

That's the part of the chanenge of an adventure game -- to test your emotions and decisions.

Will they lead you to success or death?

The thing is, Trap, I had to SEARCH through the entire Crayon episode transcript to find that little piece -- the rest of it was fairly dull and stupid.

I agree with Chris -- The earlier episodes made me laugh out very loudly (a prime example is the Homer Loves Mindy episode. "I am tired of these jokes about my giant hand. The first such incident occured when...")

Nowadays, I hardly ever laugh.

They just seem like cardboard cut-outs who do thinks completely out of character.

Homer's developed a real attitude too, which I hate.

I remembered at once stage recenlty he was spouting out Rikki Lake-style phrases such as "Eww! Too much in-for-ma-tion!"

The thing was Homer wasn't completely dumb -- just very naive.

Look at an old epsiode I caught recently -- The one where Bleeding Gums Murphy dies:

Lisa: But he was the only person that had the same love for music that I do.
       [Maggie gives Lisa a pacifier]
      Thank you.  Oh, Dad, why did he have to die?
Homer: Well, it's like the time that your cat Snowball got run over.
Lisa: Uh huh.
Homer: Remember, honey?
Lisa: Yeah.
Homer: What I'm saying is, all we have to do is go down to the pound and get a new jazzman.
Lisa: [wailing] Oh, Dad!  [weeps]
Homer: Oh, I blew it again.
       [Maggie gives him a pacifier]
      What?  [sucks on it] Mmm...

Compare that to this sence from the episode where Homer gets a crayon removed from his brain (but buts it back inside to become normal again):

Marge:   Sweetheart, the missing crayon could be anywhere.
   [Homer crashes through the living-room window]
Homer:   Who wants lottery tickets.  [holds up two fistfuls of
   tickets]
Marge:   [resigned] Okay, it's in his brain.  [leaves]
Lisa:   Dad, how could you?  We were connecting in such a
   meaningful way.
Homer:   We were what-what in a what-what?



Also, while I was reading through this episode, I found one of the worst setups for the series.

Homer:      There's a crayon in my brain?  [points to his chest.  
      The scientist relocates Homer's hand to his head]  
      But I've had thousands of head X-rays.  How come no
      one ever noticed this before?
Hibbert:   Oh, I can answer that.  You see, whenever I picked
      up an X-ray, I'd always hold it like this.  [picks
      up Homer's X-ray photo to demonstrate.  His thumb
      falls right where the crayon would be]  My thumb
      must've covered up the crayon every time.  
      [chuckles] I'll show myself out.  [leaves]

I think the writers can show themselves out.

Thanks -- that's the first time I've been called a genius without someone adding "at being a dickhead".

BTW, Did you read my edit additions at the bottom of my previous post?

I wrote then with more romantic ideas.

[imtimacy]

Las:
I agree -- At first, I thought it'd be a typical hentai game, but I took a recommendation from Underdogs and downloaded it.

Boy, was it a great game.

See if you can get Ruri (The Rei Ayanami look-a-like) -- she has the best ending.



GarageGothic:
Perhaps there's an inventory item that links the two characters together in an intimate way.

Therefore, think of objects related to imtimacy.

Because intimacy isn't used very often in games, I'll demonstrate with a different symbolic theme, trust

Have you played the game Grim Fandango?

There's a part in year 3 where Manny has to win the trust of Meche by delivering her a gun, which leads to a classic line from the game:

"A relationship without trust is like a gun without a bullet."

The gun acts as a symbol of trust in the relationship (psychoanalysts can read whatever else they want to -- I choose not to, though ).

Back to intimacy.

Think of objects that link two people intimately.

Photographs.

Letters.

An old antique that one person bought for the other.

Once you have that symbol, integrate it into later events to show how the relationshop develops.

If we're talking about a physical or sexual attraction, here's an idea:

The neightbour give a photograph of herself to the main character.

The main character leaves the photograph in a prominent place in her lounge room, like on her mantle.

But she can't stop thinking about that photograph, no matter how she tries.

At certain stages of the game, she finds building urges for the photograph of her neighbour.

If you try to leave her lounge room at this stage, she'll say "I have an urge to see that photo again!"

The only way the player can progress at this point is if you click on the photo on the mantle.

The main character takes it and retreats to the bathroom.

The view fades to black.

A few seconds later, the view fades up again.

She exits the bathroom and replaces the photograph.

You can now continue.

Now, before people start telling me what a sick fuck I am, I'd better explain the method behind the madness.

I don't know if it fits the context of the game you're writing -- you said it was a scary game, but you'd need a more romantic scene to balance the unsettling bits -- but I think a scene like this would underscore how fractured the main character is.

Not only that, but the photo acts as an image for the player character, thus expanding upon yout image/reality theme.

Perhaps later, something else happens -- the relationship with the neighbour becomes strained and she finds out she can't please herself in the bathroom with the photograph.

Maybe someone else can catch her in the act -- and this someone can use this against her.

Maybe at some stage the photograph goes missing -- how does the player character react.

This way you illustrate the sexual relationship between the two characters, but you don't show any actual sex.

There's a saying about film that goes "It's not what's said, but what's not said" -- the same goes for adventure games.

The less you actually show and the more you subtely hint, the player will understand that you're trying to focus more on the relationship than lesbian sex.

If you want, I can give you a better idea of a symbolic relationship if you send a private message -- just send me what actually happens in your story and I'll try to think of a better example that fits your game.

----------------

Edit: Even better idea

If you were looking for something more romantic, have the two female characters send photgraphs to each other.

The neighbour leaves a photograph of herself in the player's mailbox, with a note to leave one of the main character in the neighbour's mailbox.

So you have to take a photo of yourself and leave it in her mailbox.

Then she leaves another one, perhaps in a bit of a pose.

Then you leave one.

Then she leaves one.

And it becomes a game they play -- each leaving cute pictures in each other's mailbox.

Perhaps it gets to the part, where they're sending naked pictures to each other -- thus, they hint at a sexual relationship without blantantly showing actual sex.


On another idea:

The neighbour could be a photographer, and ask the main character to be her model to help with an assignment.

She snaps photographs of her until she's not wearing any clothing.

And just leave it at that -- the neighbour thanks her for helping her and the main character puts her clothes back on.

The scene doesn't end with sex, but hints at the sexual relationship -- the two women could laugh and have a great time with a model-photographer relaitonship.



It's strange for me, as a man to be saying stuff like this -- it'd probably have more validity if I were a woman.

But I can only give ideas based upon what I know.

Remember that symbols aren't enough -- you also have to make your characters convinving and multi-dimensional.

But stuff like this will give your game way more cred than a Joe Eszterhas film (he was the guy who wrote a number of sexual thrillers -- Basic Instinct, Sliver, Jade, etc -- his films are pretty lame, relying upon cheap lesbain scenes to hype up his work -- and his characters are pretty stock too)

Whatever you do, don't end up like Eszterhas -- he's a hack!

Bah -- Uncle George has so much cash he can change it to whatever he wants.

"Holy crap! I just found a 2 million dollars in my breadbox! Time for a name change!"

BALANCE THREE BISCUTS ON YOUR HEAD WITH A FLUTE UP YOUR NOSE TO UNLOCK THE DOOR!!!!!!

Wait, what were we talking about?

My point of view is this:

As long as your characters have depth and feel like actual people, rather than one-dimensional characters, people will forgive you for anything.

Even having two women in bed together.

Just make sure they have a sense of identity -- game players are smart enough to realise the intent of an author.

If you focus upon story and character, the player will sense that.

If you focus upon sex, the player will also sense that.

As for showing intimacy, you don't have to show it in a physical sense -- try and use subtlety, like using a symbol to represent their relationship.

Most importantly: if you feel comfortable with your game, then who's to say you're wrong?

Complete it??

C.lek has a list like this.

Except his version of "doing someone" is a lot different to your version of "doing someone".

BTW, I'm watching this post very closely in case it gets out of hand.

There!

I've beaten RPG Creator to it!

While trying to finish Dark Hero, I've also made the RPG with the most playing time ever!

That makes me "RPG Maker Numero Uno"!

That's debateble
I made a rpg game as well, but I got bored with it and didn't finished it 100%.
You could download the game+source on my wedsite, but I advice you not to.

My game is finsihed 100%!

Me = winner!

Actually, Narangas, now that i think about the Simpsons structurally, one of my biggest gripe with the current episodes is that the conclusion seems like a tacked-on gag, rather than something that actually concludes the episode.

Whereas, in early episodes, the conclusion had more relevance to the things that actually happened in the episode.

And now that I look at the current episodes structurally, they just seem like a string of random gags placed one after the other.

My conclusion: Narangas is right! The structure sucks!!!

Like I said, it's OVER 1000 hours long.