Messages

No, not "ABC" (whatever), we're discussing real threats to women and minorities. Things that actually might happen. You can't draw a parallel between homophobia and a detail-free hypothetical.

Oh please, that's absolute nonsense.

Scavenger can answer hypothetical questions. It's not hard.

Did you know that there are two versions of I am Legend, with way different endings?

YES! I loved the darker ending. The book was even better. I love tragic endings.

Have you seen The Mist (2007) and how Darabont changed the ending? Made me sick to my stomach (I loved it!).

Ughhhhhh. Ughhhhhh. Come on, don't get all sanctimonious on me. I've explained about five times already exactly what I meant, and getting all holier than thou "But you're being bigoted against Trump voters" is... Kind of insulting.

Its not that I don't understand their reasoning behind voting. But what they have done is incredibly harmful, and harmful things must be stopped. I'm sorry you don't think the rights of minority groups are more important than the rights of people to vote in really terrible candidates. But you're reaaaaaaaaaaaally implying that Trump hasn't actively campaigned for hatred and that the voters for him aren't complicit in enabling that hatred,thus have done something wrong that needs to be fixed.

The ultimate effect of their vote is:
- A lot of politicians who hate minorities are in high positions of power.
- Active bigotry has been validated, leading to an increase in  hate crime.
- even if Trump does none of the things set out in his campaign, there will still be a scary left by empowered bigots, who will lash out at minorities.

I do not hate Trump voters for who they are. If they fixed their mistake, if they showed active compassion towards my people instead of at best, willing indifference, I would cease hating them. My hatred is not bigotry, but more, resentment for an action. If someone stole from me, if someone attacked me, I would hate them for their crime until they atoned.

This is not a hatred for an opinion. This is seeing an injustice done and wanting it fixed.

And you gotta understand that. I don't hate them for who they are. I hate their willing enabling of oppression. As soon as they show that they're not enabling oppression but fighting back, that ends my disagreement with them.

This may come as a shock to you Scavenger but the world doesn't revolve around you and "your people" (as you called them, just so you don't wrongly accuse me of discrimination again).

That's not discrimination, it's not sanctimony, it's not hatred, it's not bigotry, and it's not harmful. It's reality.

You think voting Trump was harmful. Is it too hard to conceive that maybe they think voting Clinton was harmful, and that harmful things must be stopped?

Let's say Clinton had a policy that would directly affect your parents (brother/sister/whatever) in a very negative way, and it scared you terribly for their future.
Would you still vote for her to prevent what Trump might do if he wins?

Let's say a Trump supporter was to tell you that he sees Clinton's policy of "ABC" (whatever) as a direct threat to his family's future and that's why he's voting for Trump.
Would you call him a hateful bigot because he wants to protect his family? More succinctly, would you insist he's not voting Trump for the reasons he claims, but rather the reasons you claim? Do you actually think you know his reasons better than he does?

People can back a candidate on countless factors that have nothing to do with you (or those like you).

If you are unwilling to accept this fact then you are, in my opinion, just being obstinately and intolerantly devoted to your own opinions and prejudices and we should just agree to disagree and move on.

I will still be a big fan of your artwork

[Snarky]

Snarky - I consider you a friend. Truly. But you have a frustrating habit of telling people what they are thinking/saying.

I really don't wish to keep repeating myself, or being called a moron for expressing my opinions.

We disagree. Let's just leave it at that and move on.

I truly hope the anger and intolerance that is permeating in this thread doesn't spread to the rest of the forums.

Be well.

Never saw it, but I'll make a point to watch it now.

Probably impossible to accomplish but if you can find the "theatrical" version I'd recommend it over the "director's cut".

They changed too much. Altered Hawkeye's character/attitude and they completely changed the music.

The director's cut is still worth watching if you can't find the theatrical release though!

For me it was 1992's The Last of the Mohicans.

I was home sick from school and I "borrowed" the VHS from my brother's collection.

It changed my world.

I wasn't accusing you of anything.

I wasn't calling you a bigot.

I think there's a disconnect here.

I'm not saying we should be tolerant of rape, racism, bigotry, etc.

I'm saying that I'm seeing bigotry exhibited in this thread.

The sentitment: support for Trump = you are a raping, racist bigot.

This is an obstinate and intolerant devotion to one's opinions/prejudices. Trump = bad, so anybody who supports him = bad.

To reduce a person's reason(s) for voting for Trump to a simple definition that supports your narrative is narrow-minded and intolerant. I have explained (several times) that when you're forced to choose A or B you sometimes have to latch on to a person you might even despise simply because you despise their opponent more. This is how it works in our presidential elections. It's not (only) the voters' faults, it's the fault of a broken system nobody seems inclined to do anything about fixing.

Just because person A thinks Clinton was the superior candidate doesn't mean everybody else will agree with them. We have to be willing to accept that just because we might think it's obvious A is better than B doesn't mean others will share those feelings.

I really am sad, and tired, of this. I feel like I'm repeating myself to a brick wall. Some people agree with me, some don't... that's okay. That's how it works.

I accept that.

[a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;]

I had no expectation you'd agree.

Just sharing my different opinion.

Getting attacked for it.

Meriam-Webster's full definition of bigot:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;
especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

So if Google's definition doesn't work, does the same one you linked to work?

Yeah, like I said:

In the modern world the word "bigot" has come to be used for people who hate a person or group of people based on race/religion/sexual-orientation.

The actual definition is still valid though.

I came in to this thread taking neither side, just trying to express the need for tolerance and understanding.

So much continued intolerance.

Absolute unwillingness to see other's opinions.

My way or the highway.

Not with us, against us.

Sounds familiar?

Makes me sad.

I am tired of being sad.

No, it's not just my opinion. It's an objective fact.

That the Speaker of the House refused to campaign for his party's nominee is not "same old same old".
That Trump said his opponent would be in jail if he was president is not "same old same old".
That the sitting president declared the other party's nominee unfit to sit in the Oval Office is not "same old same old".
That the candidates refused to shake hands on the debate stage is not "same old same old".

Those are details of this election cycle that made it different from previous election cycles. Just like there were different details when Obama ran, and Bush before him.

The broad-strokes (as I see it and said before):
- There were still only two candidates put forth by the two parties that "we the people" are forced to pick from.
- There was still the same old "team picking" nonsense that leads to separation and animosity.
- There was still the same old mud-slinging childish behavior from both sides.
- The antiquated electoral college still chose the winner (or in this case the loser).
- We are still having this type of debate (same as 4, 8, 12 years ago) after the election.
- Everybody is still convinced this time it's gonna be disastrous (just like all other changes of power)

I am not going to give in to the mass hysteria. It'll calm down in a few months like it always does. The people will forget about for about 3 years. Then it'll start all over again. I suspect next election will be different though... hashtagSarcasm

Anyway... I made it clear that I was not trying to convince anybody of anything in here and I sincerely meant it. I feel like the "tone" in here has become more civil at least (which was really all I was hoping for).

In the modern world the word "bigot" has come to be used for people who hate a person or group of people based on race/religion/sexual-orientation.

However the actual definition of bigot is:

big·ot /ˈbiÉ¡Éâ,,¢t/ - noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

I find that interesting.

[Scavenger]

I'm saying that if they don't stop supporting him, if they stand by their decision to vote for him and don't try to oust him, they are complicit in his crimes. And of course I'm justified, nobody was systematically trying to strip them of their rights.

Also, you know, voting for bigotry tends to make people who love doing hate crimes more empowered to do em, like when Brexit happened. So, it makes the world an actively more dangerous place for marginalised groups to live in.

I didn't say that, either, either they actively supported Trump's bigotry, or were complicit in allowing it because it just wasn't that important to them. Either way, it's still an act of violence, one that needs to be stopped.

On the other hand, what's my crime? Existing as a hated minority? Why shouldn't I hate the people who voted for violence against me for what they've done?

Scavenger, my friend, I've admired you for years (love your artwork) but you are actually worrying me a bit. I understand your anger, but I really am worried with how you're dealing with it. Responding to hate with hate will bring about nothing but more hate. It isn't going to solve this problem!

[IT REALLY HASN'T]

I'm kind of sickened by the repeated calls for empathy for Trump voters, when I've pointed out, again and again, that his administration is stripping people of their rights, validating violent hatred, appointing white supremacists that also advocate violent hatred...
...And when someone's opposing view is "Yeah, this guy who will strip minorities of their rights and elect neo nazis was the best option", no, I won't consider it as valid. Don't you even dare try to equate my fear with their hatred.

It seems you are reacting out of raw emotion. I'm not saying I don't understand why. I get it. I really do. Fear is powerful. I don't think I called for empathy with Trump supporters? I just tried to point out that it's not always an easy black and white decision. I am not saying that your feelings are "wrong" (or right). All I'm saying is if you feel that Trump supporters are your enemy and you lash out at them (as you are in here) there's virtually ZERO chance of any outcome other than continued hatred and, most likely, violence. If you're okay with that so be it. I just see it as the same thing you're accusing them of doing, if from a different angle. Hatred and violence are wrong; regardless of the reasons or motivations behind it. You might feel justified, but so do "they". Again, though, I feel the need to reiterate that you're lumping all Trump supporters together simply because you personally cannot understand why anybody would vote for him. I find it hard to believe that all Trump supporters would bring about the realizations of your fears.

I could be wrong... maybe I'm just naive and the good people I know (who voted Trump) are all closeted bigots that blindly hate as you seem to think. They've just been lying to me for 40 years.

But this time IT REALLY HASN'T spat out the same result. That's why everyone's freaking out!...
...I don't in any way expect Trump will fulfill all his campaign promises, but if he has a "normal presidency" I will be astonished.

Your opinion. I see it as the same old same old.

Two candidates I don't approve of forced on me by a system I don't believe in.

Both sides spend more time insulting the other instead of focusing on what they intend to do.

Some chose Clinton. Some Trump.

Hatred and division as the teams are chosen.

Rinse and repeat.

I, too, would be shocked if this were a normal presidency. On that we can agree. I just don't really worry that things will change that much.

Eight years ago many tried to convince us that muslim Obama was going to bring about Sharia law. I wasn't afraid then, I'm not afraid now.

Hate crimes have already increased.

I suspect this is the case after any election. I really don't have any data to support that. Just a feeling. I suspect that a lot of hate crimes go unreported that will not go unreported when we can blame it on Trump (or Clinton). I also suspect, as I mentioned previously, that so much [dis]information is just accepted 'cause it was on the internet lead to the sense that things are a LOT worse than they really are.

Is it at all possible that the fear was about things happening in the real world, not on your Facebook feed?

Come on now... that feels insulting and antagonistic! I was simply pointing to a small example from my corner of the world. I could link to the many articles showing "real world" backlash from Clinton supporters. Just didn't think it was necessary.

If we give in to the hatred and fear "they" win.

We are better than that.

At least I hope we are.

I hope you folks who think this is business as usual are right. I will say this though: When students in Nazi Germany held book burnings in universities, what was the international reaction? Presumably revulsion, horror? Fear of what it might foreshadow?

Not really. People thought it was crass, a little uncivilised. A few leftist intellectuals got very wound up, but most newspapers didn't pay it much heed. Business as usual, nothing really changes...

There are, of course, parallels! Again I'm not saying you are wrong in your fears (though I hope you are)! History is loaded with things like this. I like to think that the US isn't repeating pre-WWII Germany. Time will tell I suppose.

I can only hope we don't give in to the fear and love wins in the end.

Cliche I know!

That wasn't my point. Of course people don't always vote intelligently. But you make it sound like an excuse - my point is that this is NOT an excuse. You have the right to vote, you have a choice, and you are responsible for what you vote. If you don't inform yourself about the alternatives, or if you vote with your gut instead of your brains, there's no one else to blame but you. You can't blame it on the candidates' personality, you can't blame it on the "system" (though yes, I dislike two party systems myself). By voting, you state your preferences, and if you vote for a xenophobic policy, you can't back out and blame a candidate who offered an alternative.

I am a little confused I must admit. I agree with what you just wrote. I wasn't trying to make voting by emotion an excuse (it's just the reality to my mind).

It would be ideal if everybody voted intelligently.

However this doesn't seem like a solution to me because I wouldn't vote on emotion and my "education" of both candidates made me damn sure I wasn't voting for either of them.

Another thing to consider is that in our current world, information (and more succinctly disinformation), is EVERYWHERE! It's exhausting trying to sort out the fact from the drivel.

I think a lot of people (which the system takes advantage of) just give up.

Some just believe whatever they read, and for others it's too hard to tell what's real and what's viral and what's out-right false.

So in the end they just hitch their horse to a wagon and ride it out.

Human nature seems to direct us to stand behind our choices (even if we have second thoughts) to avoid looking like we made a mistake.

It also seems to dictate the need to insult those with opposing views to make ourselves feel... superior? Or maybe just to convince ourselves we're right?

I read a quote recently that I thought was pretty relevant:

"Sharing links that mock a caricature of the Other Side isn't signaling that we're somehow more informed. It signals that we'd rather be smug assholes than consider alternative views. It signals that we'd much rather show our friends that we're like them, than try to understand those who are not."

Well put, Darth. We all got so much invested in this Trump/Hilary situation, the hate is pouring like poison from both sides exactly the same...
...The only way we can make our "enemies" win, is by doing what they want us to do: turn on each other. We are still the same people. Let's not give anyone satisfaction and save the world by simply getting along, can we?

I'm with you 100%, though my "fuck off" wouldn't be vocalized

[Problem]

Problem - The issue I see with your statement is that it relies on each voter voting intelligently, rather than emotionally, which just isn't realistic.

We are humans. Emotions will always play a part (until the robots take over and convert us to mindless worker drones).

Snarky - It might shock you but I agree with you almost entirely. I still find Hillary horrible (for many reasons I have no interest in going into) but I don't feel like your justification for her invalidates any of my points, really. I know you. We've met. I know you're an intelligent guy who doesn't talk out his ass. I respect your right to believe as you do (even if we disagree on some things, which we have!). The only point I'm trying to make is that I'm seeing way too much of "team H versus team T" in here and a stone-walled inability to accept that the other team might have some validity simply because they disagree with A, B and C (even if A, B and C are massive problems for them). I actually think what you wrote helps a lot of what I was saying!

Sure Clinton might be less horrible than Trump but that doesn't mean I support her and it's still a "lesser of two evils" type thing to me.

Is she more fit for office? Yes, undoubtedly.

Is she fit for office? I don't feel she is.

I don't see this as a problem with the people doing the voting.

I see it as a problem with the system they're voting in.

I'm not saddened that people voted for Trump.

I'm not saddened that people voted for Clinton.

I'm saddened that they are forced to pick one or the other.

I'm saddened that every four years we go through the same thing and the machine just keeps spitting out the same results and so few question it and just keep on contributing to this corrupt and broken system.

Do I think hate-crimes will increase?

No, I don't. I think the same hate-crimes will be perpetrated by the same people. The only difference is now the mainstream media (and Clinton supporters) will blame it on Trump instead of focusing on the real issues behind it.

Do I think Trump will renege on his campaign promises?

Of course. Just like pretty much every elected official in the history of humanity. I don't understand why people are surprised by this.

My Facebook feed, in the run-up to the election, was filled with my Clinton supporting friends spreading fear saying how if Trump won the country would be taken over by intolerant people filled with hatred. Well they were right. The day after the election my feed was FILLED with hatred and anger and outright deplorable behavior from Clinton supporters. Wasn't a single gloating or even celebratory post from my Trump supporting friends. Ironic, I suppose.

Both sides are capable of the same thing.

Election cycle after election cycle we go through the same thing. Every four years people rally behind "Politician X" and convince themselves this time it will be different.

It never is and, I doubt, ever will be until we fix the broken wheel.

I am worried about my (and my children's) future too.

I'd wager Trump supporters would say the exact same thing.

I would say I agree that it is reasonable to judge people based on their actions but only if all aspects of why they took the actions they did are being considered. Which I don't see represented in this thread.

This is my point.

The over-all sentiment in here seems to be "people voted for Trump, they are either racist/rapist/bigots or they are okay with racist/rapist/bigots".

This is narrow minded.

There are too many factors (in our current voting system) that lead people to the decisions and actions they feel forced to make.

If somebody holds a gun to your head and says, "vote for Pol Pot or Stalin?" and you have to make a decision and you choose Stalin does that mean you are okay with exterminating your own people?

Of course it doesn't.

Americans are brainwashed into believing they have to pick a side. They must choose a team.

This creates an us versus them mentality. People on team A refuse to listen to anything from team B. There's simply no way the other team has anything to say that I want to hear. I see this same behavior in this thread (leading to my aforementioned sadness).

In this system a horrible person can get elected simply by running against somebody who the population finds even more horrible.

I can understand the outside world's anger (and even agree to some level).

I just feel directing it at the voters, and judging them, is wrong.

The anger should be at the system that allows somebody like Trump or Clinton to be elected in the first place.

Instead of insulting people, why don't we start offering suggestions on how to fix this broken system? Or at the very least express our opinions without all the anger and vitriolic rhetoric? It doesn't help, it just widens the divide even more.

There is so much anger and hatred being thrown at Trump and his supporters in this thread. Trump supporters would throw it right back. You call them idiots, they call you idiots. Rinse and repeat over and over and nobody seems to realize the futility of such nonsense. It's just easier to give in to hate and join in.

Unlike I've seen demonstrated by ALL sides in this election (Americans, non-Americans, Voters/non-Voters, Trump supporters, Hillary supporters) I am willing to concede that I might be wrong. I'm just expressing my opinions and feelings on the matter with no real expectation of changing anybodies' minds.

"Remember that time we talked politics on the internet and you changed your mind?"
- Nobody, Ever

I remember when I joined this community back in 2003.

I felt so unwelcome.

There was so much hatred leveled at, and assumptions made about, me simply because I lived in the USA and the world hated our President (and, seemingly, all Americans).

It was pretty rough but I stuck around due to my love of adventure games and some of the friendships I'd made.

2008 rolls around and the US elects a president the rest of the world seemed to approve of and suddenly the anti-American sentiment was severely diminished.

Americans might just be alright?

It was a pleasant enough 8 years.

Now here we are... Trump.

Americans are bad again.

I'm not a fan of Trump. He is horrible.

So is Hillary Clinton.

It's easy to say, "if you support Trump you're a racist" and all the other bandwagon fun things to say about those who voted for Trump.

In our current [broken] system so many Americans truly believe (as "they" want them to) that there are only two choices and they're locked into not voting for who you want, but voting who you dislike the least.

I have heard many people say they voted for Trump simply because they couldn't stand the thought of a lying, criminal murderer like Hillary as their president.

I have heard many people say they voted for Clinton simply because they couldn't stand the thought of a misogynist bigot in the oval office.

I know it's hard to accept that you might be wrong about some things but it is entirely possible, in our current system, that people would despise Trump and what he stands for but they vote for him anyway because they despise his opponent more.

So yeah... 60 million people voted for Trump (more voted for Hillary but the electoral put Trump in anyway but I won't go into that).

Let's break that down a little; 60 million out of 324 million people. Roughly 18% of the American population voted for Trump. Less than 1 in 5.

This isn't indicative of systemic racism.

This isn't acceptance of bigotry.

This is indicative of a broken system that used its corruption to fail the American people.

I really hope the hatred and insults I've seen in this thread (from ALL sides) is just "fresh" backlash from the election and that this community can move past this.

I don't judge people based on where they live or who they voted for.

I don't make blanket generalizations about a people/country based on the feelings of a minority of their population.

I don't insult people (or lose a friendship) simply because they have different views from mine.

The behavior I've seen in this thread saddens me.

I hope it changes because I'm rather ashamed of us right now.

I thought we were better than that.

I don't want to feel unwelcome again in a place I've come to care so much about.

Peace.

[DING DING DING]

DING DING DING!!

Ladies 'n men-folk, we have ourselves a winner!

A highly under-rated movie if you ask me.

No sir!

Time for another shot:

No and no but these are some great guesses! None are really "close" as far as the content of the movie goes but the style similarities are spot on.

A non-visual clue:
The entire movie isn't in this style. Just certain parts.

No sir!