Messages

Officially, the word they use for the genre is "visual novel". (adventure is a bit of a misnomer since you don't solve puzzles) It's kinda like those "choose your own adventure" books. Most of it is reading with the occasional choice to get onto the different story paths.

If you're interested in the genre, you may be interested in checking out this project. It's a project that's being developed by an international team of amateur game developers. (like a lot of projects here) It originally took roots on a 4chan subboard and the more committed members eventually split off and moved to their own development forums so they could start working in earnest without crazy folks dropping in and bogging things down all the time. Seeing where it was originally started and what the manga sketch the concept was based on was about (dating girls with disabilities), most people who followed it initially expected it to be an extremely demented fetish-fest where the player was invited to exploit the various (disabled) main cast members, but when Act 1 was released as a demo it actually turned out to be a pretty well-written VN that took a very respectful approach to handling the somewhat delicate subject matter.

The project was always intended to eventually have adult scenes in there (although Act1 doesn't contain any), so the developers are currently facing the very issue you're writing about...how to keep the adult scenes tasteful and in-character.

So it sounds like the team deliberately put Activision in a position where the company had three choices:

1) Fund the development of an 8-years-in-the-making, fan-made sequel to a series that ended 12 years ago, with completely outdated graphics.
2) Be stuck with a semi-official first chapter only of a game meant to conclude the series; itself without closure--making it that much more complicated to ever make another King's Quest title.
3) Shut them down.

No wonder Activision made the decision they did. Sure, it would have been decent of them to stand by the deal made with Vivendi, but hardly in their interest, it seems.

I think you pretty much nailed it, except for option 1...the game's project director got a job at Telltale Games a little while back and I think that instead of asking Activision itself to fund the project, they would have tried to have Telltale do the rest of the episodes with Activision getting a license fee. It would have made more sense than trying to work directly under Activision who had a pretty sordid reputation concerning their interest in non-mainstream IP.

Option 2 was probably a factor...the project was written to be the series' grand finale and tie all loose ends up, but if only the first two chapters had remained produced, it ironically would have created more loose ends than it tied up. Making the production of another sequel by Activision (or another studio they licensed) difficult without TSL's writing staff involved.

At the same time, I can't agree with LimpingFish's dismissal of the whole effort. I don't agree with a lot of their tactics, but the team had ambition, I'll give them that, and the determination and talent to come close to their goal. Maybe their hubris led to their eventual failure, where a more modest project might have succeeded, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth a try, or that they should have given up at the first setback. Hell, it's their eight years of effort, not ours.

I agree.

On the one hand, this was just a fan game (or rather, it began life as a fan game), and as such should really have died at the first C+D, regardless of quality. Harsh, but that's the risk you take when you set out to make a fan game; how much time and effort you plan to devote to it is irrelevant. The Vivendi deal (which, as we know, came after the C+D; Vivendi's initial approach was simply to shut them down) seemed to end up a poisoned chalice. Not only have they lost the ability to release the game, and even keep the TSL forums, but everything they worked on effectively belongs to Activision.

Like I said before, to enter into a project of this magnitude (or to let it get to such a level) without foreseeing the possibility of having the rug pulled out from under you, and being able to say "fine" and walk away from it, is crazy. They should have let it go five years ago. It may have been easier to alter the games content at that point. It's certainly too late now.

I find it a bit difficult to agree that it should have kicked the bucket 5 years ago, simply due to the fact AGDI got a similar agreement a year before that and when the time came to submit QFG2VGA, the whole thing went relatively smoothly and instead of a C&D we got some praise from the reviewing rep who turned out to be an avid gamer herself. The deal was never a guarantee to get the project out the door, but simply another chance to do so and I think most people, even when faced with the decision between 0% and 2% chance of getting their work released will still pick the option that has the most favorable odds. If the team had finished the first chapters sooner, before the merger or had VU Games merged with a company less rigid in their views of IP laws, the thing would have been a non-issue.

In the end, if there was one thing that was probably the project's most glaring Achilles heel (if it can even be called that), it was the ambition of the team's directive staff. Changing things or going underground was never an option, not now, not 7 years ago. After AGDI got licensed (behind the scenes) and about a year before TSL's C&D, I had an IM session with their project director where I informed him of our experiences with VU and the fact we learned that A) VU knew about them and B) VU didn't consider the project a case of fair use. I mentioned it would be a very good idea to keep the KQ elements to an absolute minimum in case VU came knocking. It turned out that at that point already, the game was specifically written to be a closing chapter to the series and removing the KQ elements would cause the whole thing to fall to pieces. Going underground would go against their vision on the direction of the project, since they were hoping to turn the project official at some point or another after the release of the first part and thus it was important to get as many downloads as possible, something that would be severely hampered by keeping an extremely low public profile.

I guess that's the tragedy of the situation...the whole dream of going big with the game, the vision that pervaded the entire project, stood or fell with the assumption the IP holder (be it VU, Activision or anyone else) would be interested and open to negotiation. Had that been the case, the project would have had the unique honor of a fan project turning into a professional commercial franchise. A big gamble that ended up backfiring, it seems at this point.

I think it's just that there are some unanswered questions, or vague rumors, about the position of the TLS team in this situation. Where they interested in "official" status? Did they approach Activision with this idea of going legit (or possibly commercial)? And if so, did they bring on this C+D themselves? There's a lot of talk about negotiations and things that you wouldn't usually associate with a fan project. Was it a fan project, or did they just figure the more effort they put into it the more likely it was that they'd get paid for it in the end? Maybe the delays in releasing it were down to it's creators feeling that they didn't want to give it away for free any more.

Either way, I'd be interested in some clear answers.

Were they interested in "official status"? Yep, but Vivendi took preemptive action and approached THEM instead. The fan license they got stated they could continue, but the IP holder (VU at the time, Activision after the merger) had to review the project before it was allowed to be released and if there was any content in there that the IP holder deemed shoddy or inappropriate that would have to be changed.

So the reason they contacted Activision was simply because they were contractually obliged to...releasing the game without approval would have gotten them sued for contract breach. They really had no choice in this. The negotiations spoken of were most likely the team trying to convince Activision to adopt it as a commercial endeavour instead of shutting it down. Which apparantly didn't work out.

The question of whether it was still a fan project or an attempt to become a commercial franchise...that's kinda 50/50. It's a fangame, but the director definitely planned to approach VU at some point and try to get it adopted as the definite conclusion of the series, rather than just another chapter...it was specifically written to tie up all loose ends the other games left hanging. They were hoping the first chapters would become a critical success and they'd have numbers to convince VU/AV there was an audience worthy of investing in, hence the team's focus on branding and promotion. Also, it turned out the initial screenplay was just way too large to be completed without funding. The game that was about to be released was the first 25% of the entire concept and the team mentioned the other chapters could only be finished in a timely fashion if they could rely on more than just volunteer work.

Did they bring the C&D upon themselves? No. VU told them 5 years ago that it was either cooperation or shutdown and when they got the first part of the project to the point where it was acceptable to submit, the new IP holder turned out to be both very unsupportive of fan efforts and very uninterested in providing the team with a commercial license.

One point, though: when they got permission from Vivendi, the guys behind the KQ9 project bragged that their strategy had worked. Create so much buzz around the project that Vivendi wouldn't dare to shut them down for fear of bad press. At the time I thought that was a pretty underhanded thing to do. Maybe Activision thought so too and decided not to play along. In that case I would say they got what they deserved. Of course, it's the fans whose anticipation was built up and exploited who pay the price.

Erm...I personally think that the effectiveness of that "strategy" was blown way out of proportion by the internet community, especially by the folks who organised the petition. VU didn't shut down TSL earlier to destroy any fan-work containing IP they owned, they approached them to stop unauthorized use...but I believe the willingness to work something out was there from the start with VU. In the end, TSL got the very same agreement AGDI got (and accepted) and SQ7 got (and rejected). Neither AGDI nor SQ7 had a mass of fans write a petition in order to broker an agreement and I personally believe TSL would have gotten their fan license regardless of any petitions. Of course, it was in VU's interests to pretend the petition tipped the scales, since it suggests only fan projects with an extremely large following can get a fan license, reducing the possibility of other projects approaching them for a similar license.

Was talking to a guy involved with the project on MSN this morning. His summary was that the TSL crew were way too keen on trying to get their project endorsed as the official KQ9, following the SQ7 path (after THAT went so well ) and had even been pursuing a contract for a commercial release with Vivendi and then Activision. If that isn't asking for trouble, I don't know what is.

I heard a similar rumor once and I can see how that complicates matters because if a fan project is pushed as a commercial proposal, it stops being a fan project in the IP holder's eyes and thus if that commercial proposal is rejected by the IP holder, the proposer can't easily say: "Well, too bad, we'll just publish the project under the fan license you already granted us" without the risk of consequences. I don't know what I would have done in their place, since it was already established the only way for the project to get all its planned chapters out of the door (rather than just the first two) was if it WOULD go the commercial route.

As for changing the names, it's not that easy. Especially the first chapter takes place in the same country as KQ6...complete with characters and landmarks from that game. Changing names would be like selling homemade drawings of Mickey or Donald, but calling them Roger and Steve...a rose by any other name and all that stuff.

As for AGDI...we obtained reluctant permission from Activision to continue for the time being around the time VU Games and Activision were still in the process of merging and by that time all our projects were already released in some form, so as long as TSL fans don't go out of their way to drag AGDI into it by writing letters to Activision saying stuff like "Why are you letting AGDI off the hook and not TSL?", I think we'll be fine, though I'd be lying if I said this whole thing doesn't create a slight sense of anxiety with me.

Thanks, that did the trick. 

I'm currently fiddling around with a project that has its code divided among multiple script modules. There's two structs being used in the project and each struct has its own script module. Things kinda look like this:

Module with struct 1 header:

Code: ags

struct Apple
{
  int ID;
  import int Init(int index);
};

Apple Apples[10];

Module with struct 1 script:

Code: ags

function Apple::Init(int index)
{
  this.ID=index;
}

Module with struct 2 header:

Code: ags

struct Orange
{
  int ID;
  import int Init(int index);
};

Orange Oranges[10];

Module with struct 2 script:

Code: ags

function Orange::Init(int index)
{
  this.ID=index*2;
}

In the "room_load" section of the starting room, the following code is executed:

Code: ags

int i=0;
while (i<10)
{
  Apples[i].Init(i);
  Oranges[i].Init(i);
  i++;
}

Now there's a function I'd like to use that uses data from both structs looking something like this:

Code: ags

function Compare(int applenr, int orangenr)
{
  if (Apples[applenr].ID==Oranges[orangenr].ID) return true;
  else return false;
}

This function works fine in the room code, but when I tried putting it in a separate module (I wanted to create one specifically for all misc functions that use data from both structs), things malfunction. The misc-module is placed beneath the two struct-modules, so it can see the public variables of both structs just fine. However, the function when placed in the misc module always returns true and when looking at the values it retrieves, the only results were straight 0's for all ID-vars in both structs as if the init-process never took place. Any idea on how to fix this?

Here's the "latest" version of the site you spoke of. I think I remember an earlier version had many more projects too. But yes, after the release of "The Lost Chapter", the Space Quest community basically went on a sugar buzz and around that time, nearly every regular there was a member of SOME SQ-fangame or another. In the end, very few succeeded, but since we're counting attempts and not succesful attempts, I'd say Space Quest is definitely up there with the popular franchises.

It never really had dead ends to begin with. So there's no option to disable it.

I liked that game a lot. I think it'd be seriously difficult to recreate it in AGS and keep the physics the way they worked in the original though. Stuff like how high the protagonist jumps, the exact trajectory of projectiles like the blue rubber ball and the flying carpet as they bounce off enemies, the way the screen scrolls, the way Titus gets launched if an enemy touches him...I just don't think AGS is the right engine for that kind of thing.

I wouldn't always equate remakes with laziness though. Stuff like stability, attention to detail and polishing apply equally for both remakes and non-remakes.

This thread has what was heard from the recently.

Sorry for not replying sooner. There's a bunch of things you shouldn't do in order to become a paladin at the end of QFG2VGA and breaking in is one of them. (it's an instant disqualifier) If you want to get the best of both worlds, I suggest doing thief stuff in QFG2 (make sure to have stealth, lock picking and climbing), finishing the game as a fighter and become a paladin in QFG3. QFG3 has no paladin-exclusive quests, nor does it have any real thief sidequests you'll miss out on (there's very little for the thief to do there) and staying a fighter is harder in that game that becoming a paladin. Then you can carry your QFG3-promoted paladin over to QFG4 and 5 which do have paladin-exclusive quests. The only downer is the fact you won't have any paladin abilities for the biggest part of QFG3.

And slow battle? LOL, most people who didn't like the combat in QFG2VGA thought it was too fast-paced. Or maybe you're playing with some heavy filters.

Hah. So when is 2 going to be re-released with all the new fanciness?

The revamped 2 will be re-released when it's done. Bet you didn't see that one coming.

In a course I'm taking we had a guest speaker today who was diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder at some point and had the history to go with it...a "criminal career", substance abuse and manipulating others. He eventually turned his life around and now has a day job organising sessions for juvenile delinquents. I believe both nature and nurture play a role. Some have a genetic vulnerability to antisocial personality disorder, like others have a vulnerability to schitzophrenia or addictions, but nurture probably plays a role in fostering the condition. (the guest speaker who spoke for our class came from a dysfunctional family)

I've heard the condition tends to diminish slightly as the person gets older, so some (but not all) people deemed sociopaths before eventually "mellow", but environmental factors can play a large role. The process is long and gradual, not a sudden thing like imminent death could change, since the whole sociopathy-factor is ingrained in one's personality. If your dad was a jerk before, he'll probably still be a jerk. Like others said, it's not a movie.

The blue frog appears randomly in the oasis screen. If it's not there, leave and come back. In order to actually catch it you must use the bellows on it before you capture the air elemental. (afterwards, it's no longer possible) So the ideal time would be to get it after getting the bellows but before going over to the palace plaze to take care of old blowhard. That's the only window of opportunity you have if you're not gonna steal it. You can beat Issur at wrestling before day 8, but he won't give you the bellows until you tell him about the air elemental.

I believe you are also correct about the fear of the general population going ape-shit and selling out their hard won freedoms over a chrismatic dictator type person.  And yes it can happen even in modern times; just look at what's going on in Venezuela and Bolivia.

Yeah, I too heard that one of the original thoughts behind the electoral college was the assumption that Joe-the-ignorant-redneck-farmer-from-Kentucky was too oblivious of national politics to make an informed choice about out-of-state candidates who hailed from the Boston or Florida area. Thus, the electoral college could make an "informed choice" on behalf of the voters. And seeing the motivations of some citizens for voting for or against a certain candidate are nothing short of shallow, I can't say I blame them. What I wonder is how the electoral college is meant to correct irresponsible decisions by the electorate. Check this link out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

Not only do parties usually pick drones as their electors who are certain to vote the party line, no matter how irresponsible, but voting against the party line is also discouraged and in theory even punished. So does it really make a difference? Unless I'm missing something about the way the system works.

In some countries that have multi-party systems, they seem to have to have elections every 6 months after the coalition partners break up with each other and nobody has enough power to get anything done -- which can't be a good thing for the country or the economy.

Yeah, the coalition system is hardly perfect, although in the US, the results would be slightly less profound due to local (state) government being a lot more influental than some local province governments in other western countries. I agree elections for the US every 6 months would be a bad thing economically, seeing the crazy amounts of money that get poured into campaigns.

Hehe, I on this point.   Just to clarify though.  There are no laws codifying or requiring a two party system in the US.  It has just worked out that way.   There are in fact other political parties in the US who routinely run presidential candidates, such as the  Libertarian party, The Green party and the one created by Ross Perot in 92.  This is not to say that the two parties in power don't do everything they can to maintain the status quo.   

True, although due to the voting-as-a-block deal, a lot of people who would have voted for a 3rd party still end up voting one of the two mainstream parties because if the only way to deny a candidate your vote is to make certain that candidate doesn't get the majority of the votes in a state. (See the "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush"-line)

Well, that's because Bush went for the more extreme running mate, which is a pretty consistent tactic in American elections... there's a name for it, but I forget how it works. Basically, nobody's going to assassinate Bush because then Cheney will president. McCain's doing the same thing.

I'm not sure if that's the thought. There's been word that while Bush makes it to the headlines more often, Cheney has more political say behind the scenes. Ironically, shooting Cheney might have had more impact than shooting Bush. The only reason Palin seemed to be chosen was to bring "youth" to the team (unfortunately also debunking the "Obama is inexperienced"-talking point) and to appeal to the religious right wing part of the base, who weren't exactly charmed with McCain before. (and vice versa) I doubt she'd pick up many Hillary-voters due to her gender...her opinion that abortion isn't even justified in case of rape isn't something a lot of women, particularly Hillary voters, are gonna agree with.

I feel that in this day and age, with the proliferation of mass media, it's reached a point where we can (and should) tally the popular vote and base the presidency off of that.  I see the electoral college as antiquated and no longer needed.

I see the system as antiquated too, but I'm not sure if the proliferation of the mass media has made the popular vote any more reliable. With the mass media bombarding the public with all sorts of contradicting information, it's hard to see the forest for the trees and judge what's reliable and what's spin. I doubt those rabid McCain-supporting crowds had been this fired up if it hadn't been for the fearmongering, attack ads and pundits shouting all sorts of things. In the good ole' days, a significant part of the electorate was uninformed and now that same part is misinformed. That's progress for ya.

I may be wrong but I believe that one of the original reasons for creating the electoral college was so that individual states could maintain their power by voting as a block.   

For those not familiar with the US system:

The number of representatives in congress for each state is determined by that state's population.   Each state gets two senators regardless of the population.   This was done so that small and/or sparsely populated states would have some say so in the political process.   

They used the same formula to determine the number of electoral votes delegated to each state.   From Wikipedia ... 

"Each state has a number of electors equal to the number of its Senators and Representatives in the United States Congress. ...

Most states allow voters to choose between statewide slates of electors pledged to vote for the presidential and vice presidential tickets of various parties; the ticket that receives the most votes statewide 'wins' all of the votes cast by electors from that state. ..."

For me it seems to be a sane system.  It doesn't bother me that occasionally there is a difference between the popular vote and the electoral vote.   It's only happened a couple of times in 250 years and in each instance they were very close elections.   I think it's good that small states are guaranteed a voice.

The electoral college system seems a bit sane to me in the way that it does decrease the impact of votes in densely populated states and increase the impact of votes in rural areas. (this is probably a big reason the republican party is still around, since a lot of densely populated areas and big cities traditionally vote blue)

What bugs me personally about the system is the "winner-takes-all"-rule that's enforced in every state but two. If you're a republican in Massachusetts and you vote red (who thought up those colors?), your vote automatically goes to the democrats anyway. Likewise, in a red state, it doesn't matter whether 49% or 1% votes blue...the effect is that the state's electors vote 100% red. This has a couple of questionable effects in practice:

- Less people will be interested to look into the candidates' political program, since they might feel their vote won't count towards the final result anyhow.

- Hence, less people vote.

- The "winner-takes-all"-rule is basically "all or nothing", meaning it strongly favors 2-party systems. It's impossible for additional parties to have any impact on the final result.

2-party systems, in my own opinion, result in turn in an unhealthy political climate.

- People will often vote against the candidate they don't want in office, rather than for the candidate they do want in the big chair.

- Since there's only one opponent, the political climate is more vulnerable to becoming shallow...instead of going out of their way to increase public awareness of their political programs, candidates instead go out of their way to assassinate the only other competitor's character and sling mud...meaning whoever gets to be the winner gets to govern a nation that's more divided than before. And hey, what's more important to the world? Your own economic vision that might affect global economy or the fact your opponent smoked joints as a teenager?

- Style over substance.

- The less parties, the easier it gets for big corporations to buy political support.



I'm not sure why most states don't simply distribute the electors according to the local voting results, rather than make the entire state support one particular candidate, but since both mainstream political parties benefit from the status quo, I don't see the system changing anytime soon.

If you're a fighter, you must store your shield in the chest in your room, since you need one free hand to cast magic. Also, you can't use flame dart, force bolt and dagger throwing in melee range, you must back off first.

I know. I was just having a little go at him for being a crybaby.

Now that's where you're wrong, it makes perfect sense. If a person has beaten the game many times before and has unlocked the debug mode, it makes sense that upon replaying some time later, he wants to play through the game a little faster and occasionally blue-frog his stats up in order to keep stat raising to the absolute minimum. There's nothing wrong with that. I do object to someone who plays through the game for the first time using debug features to rush past things. It took a lot of time to make the game. The respectful thing to do would be to invest a little bit of your own time in going through it.

And yes, the game can be beaten with perfect score. Many people have done it. There's even a guy on YouTube who recorded a fighter playthrough of the game and beating Issur at arm wrestling, even without using the hold back option. (so you can apologize now as I'd see that as obvious proof) As a fighter, you get 7 points for beating Issur at arm wrestling, which is why you didn't get 500 out of 500. Now, in the time you've been crying over this, you could have raised your strength up to 155 to 160 or so and beat the Issur yourself. Stats play a bigger role than anything else.

And yeah, people do find hidden things. Most of the hidden features have been found during the first month. Most people liked them too.

As for the rest of your tempter tantrum, it's obviously coming down to this: "I suck at something, but rather than admit this to myself and face the fact I'm not perfect, I'll go and throw abuse at the developers in order to preserve my oh-so-fragile ego." I only have one thing to say to that. Cry me a river and get over it.